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Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:14:00 - [1] Charisma remains the bastard child of the attribute line, while there are a greater percentage of skills that have charisma as their primary attribute, leadership is still largely uninteresting and lack variety. We really ought to see skills like the Navy Doctrine Skills introduced and gang mods looked at once more to make them more attractive. Of the leadership mods, the only line that is interesting is the skirmish and electronic warfare sets as there are arguably, much better, and much cheaper (in terms of fitting, accessibility and cost) alternatives. I would fit an EANM II almost every time I had the chance to fit the alternative resistance gang mod because of how narrow the usage is. On the other hand I'm excited about the tackling range and to a lesser extent the electronic war strength ones because it is relatively difficult to augment those modules performance with other modules. This is slightly less true now with rigs and certain hardwires but this should be the direction CCP should have taken the gangmods, augment abilities in new and different ways. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Jei'son Bladesmith The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:41:00 - [2] Properly implemented (admitedly I have no idea what would constitute a 'proper' implementation) a set of Doctrine skills could be interesting - perhaps boosting the various attributes of a ship associated with that race (for example, if you have Caldari Navy Doctrine and are the gang booster, anyone flying a Caldari ship gets a bonus for the typical Caldari strengths like ECM, shields, and/or missiles) I'm usually a solo pilot so I'm not sure what would be a good balance or appropriate for gang/leadership skills, but I would like to see more importance given to charisma, as its little more than a dump stat at the moment, which is just sad.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.05.18 17:36:00 - [3] Have current leadership skills apply to your drones when flying solo and they'd become more interesting. I won't suggest to yourself when flying solo because then they simply become standard skills. Not too sure about the drone thing though, does make it sound just like drone skills then but with a little extra. What's also an issue is that if you have a same set of people that are always FCing or simply acting as booster, there's no reason for the rest of the gang to really get the skills unless you get split up. On the other hand, they do are called leadership skills and you can't have a gang of all leaders. However making them stack diminishingly could be an option as your gang is "smarter" because more people could be potential leaders. PRETA is now recruiting.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:20:00 - [4] Surely others are would like useful charisma and some cool skills to go with it?
b1zz	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:44:00 - [5] Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath What's also an issue is that if you have a same set of people that are always FCing or simply acting as booster, there's no reason for the rest of the gang to really get the skills unless you get split up. On the other hand, they do are called leadership skills and you can't have a gang of all leaders. However making them stack diminishingly could be an option as your gang is "smarter" because more people could be potential leaders. If all leadership characters contributed to a fleet it would make leadership more a must-have skill and we don't need more of those. I believe the current push is for fleet sizes to be most effective at medium sizes, rather than the current biggest blob wins. If they could pull this off then the demand for leadership characters would increase without making it a must-have. And race specific leadership skills would work with the faction system coming in the next patch. More diversity in leadership would be nice.
Sharida	Posted - 2008.05.23 02:43:00 - [6] Edited by: Sharida on 23/05/2008 02:44:23 The leadership and gang boost mods are absolutely phenomonal when included in gangs. A character with wing command 2 can provide bonuses to 21 people at once. The thing about the gang assist mods is they are specialized, and are not useful in all situations. These skills are active at all times and provide bonuses to everyone applicable in gangs; Armored warfare - 2% armor per skill level Siege warfare - 2% shield per skill level Skirmish warfare - 2% velocity per skill level Information warfare - 2% targeting range per skill level Mining director - 2% mining yield per skill level And now the modules. To use a module, you have to have a specialist skill. Armored warfare specialist, for example. requires armored warfare 5. Armored warfare specialist - 10% armor boost Siege warfare specialist - 10% shield boost Skirmish warfare specialist - 10% velocity boost Information warfare specialist - 10% lock range boost Mining foreman - 10% mining yield boost Armored warfare link - damage control 2% less cap use for armor reps / remote armor reps per AWS lvl Armored warfare link - passive defense 2% boost to all armor resists per AWS lvl Armored warfare link - rapid repair 2% faster cycle time for armor reps / remote reps per AWS lvl Information warfare link - electronic superiority 2% increase in ewar mods per IWS level Information warfare link - recon operation 2% increase in ewar mods range per IWS level Information warfare link - sensor integrity 3% increase in sensor strength per IWS lvl Mining foreman link - harvester capacitor efficiency 2% reduction in cap need on mining lasers / gas harvestors / ice harvestors per MF lvl Mining foreman link - laser optimization 2% reduction in cycle time for mining lasers / gas harvestors / ice harvestors per MF lvl Mining foreman link - laser field enhancement 2% increase i range of mining ..... per MF lvl Siege warfare link - active shielding 2% faster cycle time for shield boosters / shield transporters per SWS lvl Siege warfare link - shield efficiency 2% less cap needed for shield boosters / Xfers per SWS lvl Siege warfare link - shield harmonizing 2% increase in all shield resists per SWS lvl Skirmish warfare link - evasive maneuvers 2% decrease in sig radius per skirmish warfare specialist lvl Skirmish warfare link - interdiction maneuvers 3% increase in propulsion jamming range per SkWS lvl Skirmish warfare link - rapid deployment 3% increase in MWD / AB speeds per skirmish warfare spc lvl In addition to these there are 3 more things that increase your boosts. Warfare link specialist {skill} - 10% increase in boost / lvl [specific] Warfare link Implant - 50% increase in boost AND replaces the 10% boost with a 15% Field Command ship - 3% boost to [specific] warfare link boost.
Sharida	Posted - 2008.05.23 03:36:00 - [7] Edited by: Sharida on 23/05/2008 03:38:16 While this may not seem like much, you can get some VERY nice boosts for your fleet, either in PVP / PVE / Mining situations. Now the numbers.... For this, I am going to assume the following.... [specific] warfare specialist 4 warefare link specialist 4 (required for command ships) command ship 4 the numbers listed after each module will be listed as follows [bonus in a BC or any other ship running one module] / [bonus in a CS with respective bonus] / [bonus with impant] / [bonus with implant and CS] and will be rounded off to 1 decimal point AWL - damage control (cap need) 88.8% / 87.5% / 79% / 76.5% AWL - passive def (resists) +11.1% / +12.5% / +21% / +23.5% AWL - rapid repair (cycle time) 88.8% / 87.5% / 79% / 76.5% IWL - (ECM strength) 111.1% / 112.5% / 121% / 123.5% IWL - (ecm range) 111.1% / 112.5% / 121% / 123.5% IWL - (sensor str) 111.1% / 112.5% / 121% / 123.5% MFL - (cap need) 88.8% / .. / 79% / .. MFL - (cycle time) 88.8% / .. / 79% / .. MFL - (miner range) 125.2% / .. / 147.3% / .. SWS - shield resists) 11.1% / +12.5% / +21% / +23.5% SWS - (cycles time) 88.8% / 87.5% / 79% / 76.5% SWS - (cap need) 88.8% / 87.5% / 79% / 76.5% SkWS - (sig radius) 88.8% / 87.5% / 79% / 76.5% SkWS - (propulsion jam range) 116.8% / 118.8% / 131.5% / 135.3% SkWS - (AB / MWB boost) 116.8% / 118.8% / 131.5% / 135.3% Now, these numbers get higher if you get all your skills to lvl 5, but as I hope you can see, the modules REALLY help out your gang. While you may not be the absolute most damaging ship out there, BUT you help out your gang / fleet. Hope this helps.
b1zz	Posted - 2008.05.23 04:39:00 - [8] Nice info. bookmarked
Sharida	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:02:00 - [9] The next thing to bring to light is fleet structure. Leadership gives 2 sqaud members per skill level. Wing commander requires leadership V and allows the control of one sqaud per level. Fleet commannder requires wing commancer 5 and allows the control of one wing per skill level. Each squad must have a squad leader, booster can be assigned to anyone in the squad.provided the squad booster and at least one squad member are active in the same system (not docked), the entire squad in that system will get bonuses. The Squad leader is able to call targets ingame by right clicking on an object and selecting 'Broadcast: target'. This will cause the target to appear with a S1 marker over it for all sqaud members. Each Wing must also have a leader and booster can be assigned as well (usually just the same person, though). The wing commander can also call targets with the broadcast target, but the target will appear with a W1 icon for a short while. I must note however, that a wing commander will NOT see squad broadcasts. Bonuses become tricky with more than one squad. for a squad to recive its own bonuses, the booster / one more must be in system together. If the WING booster is also in system, the squad / wing booster will recieve the highest bonus available. If you have 2 squads under control and your WB has siege warfare 3, SB1 has siege warfare 4 and your SB2 has siege warfare 2.... Squad 1 gets a 8% shield boost (Siege warfare 4 from booster) Squad 2 gets a 6% shield boost (WB has lvl 3, SB has lvl 2) Wing booster has an 8% boost from S1 booster. If squad one has a gong mod running, only squad 1 and your wing commander / booster gets the bonus, but if your wing booster has gang assist mod, everyone gets the bonus. Sample setup of mining op... Wing commander / booster in a Myrmidon - has wing command 3 3X tractor beams (for cans) Skirmish warfare link - evasive maneuvering Webs / Scrams / target painter or ECM Mining drone II's x 5 Medium EW drones x 5 and logistics drones Squad one <miners> - leadership 3 (allows 6 members) 5X mining ships 1 BS with Mining forman link - (cycle time), miner 2's [booster] Squad two <defence> - leadership 4 [booster] (8 members allowed) 1X command ship with 1-3 warfare links 7 combat ships Squad 3 <transport> - leadership 1 2 x haulers This setup is used for the following reasons. 1) the Myr pilot will have a "warp WING to.." opion, so the entre group can be warped at once. 2) the myr can pull the jetcans to one location that the haulers can warp to 3) the CS from group 2 will provide bonuses to the wing commander, but the rest of the op doesn't need the bonuses 100% of the time 4) the mining group gets a mining forman link for them selves, as does the myr, who can be mining with drones when no combat is going on / drop scout drones or ECM drones if you get jumped 5) if things get bad, you can have just the miners warp out all at once on their own, while still leaving your combat wing unaffected
Priestess Kaar	Posted - 2008.05.23 12:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Sharida big stuff about a mining op the core points are right, but PLEASE, if you have EVER looked into Warfare-Links, dont take such impossible examples. Battleships can not fit Warfarelinks as they can NEVER achieve 5000 CPU. To fly a CS you need Leadership V, there is not even a single CS with Leadership IV out there ;) but the rest (fleet structure etc) is very good and imo provides a good point for "starters". (y)
Del Chick	Posted - 2008.05.28 12:17:00 - [11] Anyone know if it's possible to have a command ship sitting inside a pos forcefield giving out warfare link bonuses? Or would the CS need to be outside the force field? And, I read above that a commander only gets his own tier 1 bonuses, is this true? sounds like bull to me.
Marine HK4861 Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.05.28 22:08:00 - [12] Edited by: Marine HK4861 on 28/05/2008 22:10:08 Bonuses from skills and links will be given whether the commander is inside a POS field or not. As long as he's undocked, in the same system and not cloaked, they'll give warfare link bonuses. Originally by: Del Chick And, I read above that a commander only gets his own tier 1 bonuses, is this true? sounds like bull to me. Commanders only get their own bonuses, not better ones from people higher up in the command chain. It's a known issue since the fleet mechanics were brought in and when Wing Command/Fleet Command were first introduced. CCP have also stated they're aware of this issue. As for stating whether something 'sounds like bull', why not test it for yourself rather than making an uninformed judgement?
JenDen The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.05.29 00:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Marine HK4861 Commanders only get their own bonuses, not better ones from people higher up in the command chain. Don't forget that Squad Commanders DO get bonuses from above, no problem. Wing Commanders DON'T. Fleet Commanders have nobody else above anyway. I'd love to see Wing Commanders getting the above bonuses, but oh well.. this issue has been around for quite awhile as you said - Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.29 07:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Del Chick Anyone know if it's possible to have a command ship sitting inside a pos forcefield giving out warfare link bonuses? Or would the CS need to be outside the force field? And, I read above that a commander only gets his own tier 1 bonuses, is this true? sounds like bull to me. Wing commnaders only get their own bonuses, but they do get bonuses from their own warfare link modules if they're running any. Those modules run just fine inside a POS shield. In fact sitting inside a POS is the best place for a command ship with 6-7 warfare links running, since it sure can't fight, and the links deactivate if the ship has to warp off. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Del Chick	Posted - 2008.05.29 07:48:00 - [15] Marine HK4861, JenDen and Malcanis, thanks for some great info. ItÆs cleared it up for me. Marine HK4861, gimmi your account number and password and IÆll test it out has just started training said skills :p 250days training, here I come.
Sharida	Posted - 2008.05.29 17:06:00 - [16] Edited by: Sharida on 29/05/2008 17:08:40 I would like to mention that battlecruisers get a 99% reduction in CPU need of modules. If you had noticed in my sample setup, the wing commander was in a Myrmidon. Yes, leadership V is required for command ships, as well as the underused Command proccessor module (allows an ADDITIONAL link to be used). However, you done need leadership V, only your wing commander does, most squad commanders do fine with 3 or 4. And those numbers are not impossible, they simple take someone to decide that they want them, and to train a bit. I happen to be one of those people, and will be in a CS within 2 weeks. edit: Command proccessor requires warfare link specialist 5 (which requires leadership 5)
Contralto Federal Research Labs	Posted - 2008.05.29 21:08:00 - [17] Edited by: Contralto on 29/05/2008 21:09:11 I have found that the Drake is the best BC dedicated booster, with 4 Co processors (3 if faction/officer) and 2 PG rigs, it can fit up to 4 command processors and 5 warfare links and run all simultaneously. Cap isnt an issue, with 1 CCC rig and a TII cap charger. Obviously its only useful at a safe spot in hi sec or a Pos in low sec. I couldn't squeeze 5 links on any other BC. all skills at lvl V. My leadership alt doesn't fly a CS yet, anyone know which CS can fit the most links? (no tank)
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.29 22:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Contralto Edited by: Contralto on 29/05/2008 21:09:11 I have found that the Drake is the best BC dedicated booster, with 4 Co processors (3 if faction/officer) and 2 PG rigs, it can fit up to 4 command processors and 5 warfare links and run all simultaneously. Cap isnt an issue, with 1 CCC rig and a TII cap charger. Obviously its only useful at a safe spot in hi sec or a Pos in low sec. I couldn't squeeze 5 links on any other BC. all skills at lvl V. My leadership alt doesn't fly a CS yet, anyone know which CS can fit the most links? (no tank) Claymore has 8 high slots and 515 base CPU, so that would seem optimal (Vulture has 575 CPU but only 6 high slots). I use a Claymore for my leadership alt. It also has the advantage of being the most maneverable. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
JenDen The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.05.30 05:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 29/05/2008 22:42:43 Claymore has 8 high slots and 515 base CPU, so that would seem optimal (Vulture has 575 CPU but only 6 high slots) Vulture has 7 high slots. - Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.30 06:19:00 - [20] cuz ya know fitting an extra eanm to every ship in a fleet is such a bad thing and the faster reps are nice to have, same cap efficiency with the third gang link. extra web range and extra speed is great too, and probably preferable in lots of places. but wait! we can use more than 1 thanks to the fleet structure. a fleet commander, and then as many wing commanders as needed, and then squad commanders.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.30 07:12:00 - [21] Originally by: JenDen Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 29/05/2008 22:42:43 Claymore has 8 high slots and 515 base CPU, so that would seem optimal (Vulture has 575 CPU but only 6 high slots) Vulture has 7 high slots. Heh late night posting ftl. It still can't run more links than a claymore though. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
JenDen The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.05.30 15:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Malcanis It still can't run more links than a claymore though. I didn't object that, nerf minmatar! :) - Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.30 16:31:00 - [23] Originally by: JenDen Originally by: Malcanis It still can't run more links than a claymore though. I didn't object that, nerf minmatar! :) no that 8th high slot is the Minmatar's compensation for how good the Falcon is CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sharida	Posted - 2008.05.30 19:42:00 - [24] The fleet command ship has 2 built in command processors, and can fit a disturbing tank while running them. EFT aside, real experience with boosting will help more. Each fleet command ship gives bonuses to one type of gang mod, and that really needs to be taken into consideration. Also, someone mentioned that command structure plays a role, and it does. One person in a Fleet CS can run the 3 specific gang mods + one or 2 more if needed and still fit a nice tank.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.30 21:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Sharida The fleet command ship has 2 built in command processors, and can fit a disturbing tank while running them. EFT aside, real experience with boosting will help more. I should perhaps mention that I have an alt with almost 11M SP in leadership skills who uses a claymore as a gang boosting platform. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
4IROW Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.30 23:16:00 - [26] does anyone know if leadership will get some love? I thought to skill leadership or even skill an alt in this direction but I can't decide...
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.31 01:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Erotic Irony Surely others are would like useful charisma and some cool skills to go with it? I'd like to see a whole set of command-type ships in multiple sizes. A T2 destroyer for boosting frigate-size gangs would be excellent and would encourage more new players to train leadership skills early in the game. There definitely needs to be more in the game to make Achuras squirm. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Viscount Hood UK Corp Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.06.01 21:47:00 - [28] Some faction gang links would be nice.. Caldari Navy Siege Warefare link, or Dread Guristas link etc.. . I'd also like to see battleship class command ships.
chichi boom	Posted - 2008.06.02 08:53:00 - [29] A mini-command ship for small gangs would be awesome. BCs simply arent agile enough to be used in some of the smaller groups where the bounuses could really be felt.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.02 17:16:00 - [30] Originally by: chichi boom A mini-command ship for small gangs would be awesome. BCs simply arent agile enough to be used in some of the smaller groups where the bounuses could really be felt. A new T2 Destroyer would be nice for those of us who watched in dismay as the 512k SP we spent on Destroyer V for Interdictors was pretty much wasted when the nerfbat hit. PS Pls can the Caldari T2 "mini-command" destroyer be a gunboat. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

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