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Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:37:00 - [1] Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:41:00 Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:37:09 First of all, sorry for my lack of English Introduction First off all this topic is about comparing the EW of the 4 races. Mainly target painters are the issue here. I'm not saying that target painters are the most terrrible EW out there but I just want to compare them with the other ones & ask myself/ourself if TP is really an effective EW ? (& specially for minmatar) Comparing With each EW I compare it against 1 enemy & then against multiply enemies. I don't count in webbers, scramblers & neutralizers into this. - ECM (Caldari) ECM ships are able to fully Jam an other ship & therefore the enemy can't do anything then just sitting there. It will not harm you or/and your teammates Same ship but with multiply enemies can still jam up to a large effectively amount of ships. Therefore you or/and your teammates won't be harmed by the enemy forces Its a good solid EW method which definatly hurts the enemy - Sensor Dampners (Gallente) Dampning (even after the nerf) is still quite effective. Against one single enemy it could damp a target down to 10km (Keres against Raven). Against multiply ships it is a nice tool to have a sniping gang with it or/and reduce the locking time of enemy ships so that your teammates death will be delayed or even safed. In large fleet battles such ships could damp down a handfull of BS's which its could reduce the enemy damage output & therefore safe your teammates. It isn't as effective as ECM however gallente do have bonusses to their second warfare module: Scramblers - Tracking Disruptors (Amarr) Tracking disruptors are very effective against a single ship. It could disable fully its range of its guns & its tracking. It won't be able to anything with its guns. In large fleets you could do the same thing as dampners, disable a partial of the enemy firepower which will have the same results as that of the dampners, it will safe teammates. It isn't as effective as ECM however amarr do have bonusses to their second warfare module: Neuts & Nosses - Target Painters (Minmatar) Target painters is a whole other story compared to the other races EW. Its more kind of a support module. It helps missiles do more damage if the missile has a higher signature radius then the ship that is being shot. For guns it helps with tracking. However the enemy can still do its job without any problem. I see the target painter as a universal tracking computer for your friends who will have to shoot him or the target painters don't have an effect at all. With the other EW you can aim at somebody who isn't primary & it does have an effect. Then we should also think about that a primary target is often webbed so tracking wouldn't be a problem anyway. So I see this module more as an supportive equipment than rather a "real" electronic warfare capability. Also Minmatar has its second EW capability & that is ofcourse webbers. Webbers are great in minmatar, but they aren't better or worse then Neuts & Nosses. Both can disable nano ships. Those who aren't nanod will not suffer from webs as much as from neuts. Some ships won't be worried at all if they get webbed. But every single ship in eve worries about the neuts (Drake could be an exception from this). Scrablers are always important. I always hear somebody say: "You can't have enough scramblers
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:38:00 - [2] Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:46:14 Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:41:36 Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:40:19 Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:38:58 My Opinion/Conclusion Well, I think that electronic warfare of the minmatar is rather weak. Not the webbers, but mainly the target painters. They have no specific role if everybody gets webbed every single time. You could have an huggin targetpainting the primary targets & secondary targets in a large fleet. But to be honest I see them hunting with webbers after interceptors or other support ships. "So they aren't as good as other electronic warfare, what now then? Buff it?" I am not an expert in this but we could layout some possibilities: - Well buffing could be an idea. They should be buffed bigtime to be effective & people would use them. But people still would use webbers over target painters. - Replace the EW with something else. There is notting currently ingame what could replace target painters. This means making up a whole new EW. However I think this is a bad option unless somebody comes up with a very good idea. - Remove the target painters from minmatar & make their main EW webbers. Webbers of the huggin & rapier would web the same range & create a bonus for the rapier/huggin and the bellicose could have a velocity penalty on their webs of almost 99%. TP's would be free for take. They can be used on Assault ships (give them TP bonus) as they are support ships & not EW ships. EDIT: Assault ships are a nice price compared what they will do with target painters. Huggins & Rapiers aren't worth the fitting the target painters compared to their price (& insurance) - Do you have any ideas? Closing Well, I hoped I could pass on my message. I hope everybody enjoyed the reading & would give their honest opinion about this. Also if I am completly wrong, please tell me why as I am learning every single day from eve.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:35:00 - [3] Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 19/05/2008 16:35:27 Forgive me for cutting and pasting from past posts. But here is my stats on putting a TP on a Muninn: "However, I have two tracking mods in the lows and the equivalent of a third in rigs. These stack. My guns track at .06355 with those. W/O the TP, using faction Titanium Sabot, my ship has an optimal of 49.4km and falloff of 21.9km. I can lock targets out to 90km. This setup is designed more for tracking then range. The tracking guide shows the following chances of hitting a Vagabond with a signature radius of 575 and an angular velocity of 7km/s: 20% at 15km, 38% at 20km, 53% at 25km, 85.56% at 51.45km, 50% at 70km, and 10% at 90km with the TP at my skill lvl the sig of the vaga is 782 and the chances become: 40% at 15km, 60% at 20km, 70% at 25km, 91.77% at 50.55km, 50% at 70km, and 10% at 90km Think of the tracking mods as overdrive injectors. The target painter is a nanofiber. Both effect tracking but they don't stack. This is also assuming that the vagabond is flying at a horrible angle to me and not slowing down even to orbit. If the angular velocity slows to 5km/s, then I have a 60% chance to hit at 15km and 78% at 20km." A target painter on my Thrasher allows me to hit connect with a crow going 11km/s 10% to 20% more/harder depending on the exact range. I agree that Target Painters don't have the loud bang that other ewar has. Most players also don't understand them and how they effect tracking. For these two reasons they don't get used a whole lot. But imho it clearly puts some of the alpha back into artillery for Minmatar. It allows my dessy to swat interceptors going over 10km/s. It allows cruiser sized ships to hit nano-hacs hard too. I think if more people used them they'd be pleasantly surprised. But they don't.
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:37:00 - [4] Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 16:39:40 So target painters are better then tracking computers? Or is that to simple said by me? EDIT: Ah, Guess I get it. Target painters are better for close range (45km) & tracking computers are better for long range (bejond 45km?) I took 45km value as that is optimal for target painter.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:42:00 - [5] And I thought you had it. My faith in humanity, again it is betrayed. Target painters are the most powerful EW in Eve, it is no coincidence they are called PWNAGE. Quote: However the enemy can still do its job without any problem. Ne he cannot. He is already dead. Quote: I see the target painter as a universal tracking computer for your friends who will have to shoot him or the target painters don't have an effect at all. With the other EW you can aim at somebody who isn't primary & it does have an effect. Then we should also think about that a primary target is often webbed so tracking wouldn't be a problem anyway. It is MINMATAR we are talking about here. Webbing does not help tracking, webbing is equivalent to WEBBING YOURSELF if you want a tracking advantage. Target painters are essential. Every Minmatar problem dissolves once you actually use them. Because none of the idiots out there knows how to fly Amarr either. So depressing, it this can't be that hard to figure out.
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Ruciza And I thought you had it. My faith in humanity, again it is betrayed. Target painters are the most powerful EW in Eve, it is no coincidence they are called PWNAGE. Quote: However the enemy can still do its job without any problem. Ne he cannot. He is already dead. Quote: I see the target painter as a universal tracking computer for your friends who will have to shoot him or the target painters don't have an effect at all. With the other EW you can aim at somebody who isn't primary & it does have an effect. Then we should also think about that a primary target is often webbed so tracking wouldn't be a problem anyway. It is MINMATAR we are talking about here. Webbing does not help tracking, webbing is equivalent to WEBBING YOURSELF if you want a tracking advantage. Target painters are essential. Every Minmatar problem dissolves once you actually use them. Because none of the idiots out there knows how to fly Amarr either. So depressing, it this can't be that hard to figure out. Well, sorry miss Ruciza that I don't know that much as you do. Refering to my first quote, not if it is a gang of 5v5. Thx anyway, just going to check it deeper into detail now I know more about it.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Jalif Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 16:39:40 So target painters are better then tracking computers? Or is that to simple said by me? EDIT: Ah, Guess I get it. Target painters are better for close range (45km) & tracking computers are better for long range (bejond 45km?) I took 45km value as that is optimal for target painter. Painters also have a massive falloff, and become chance based at higher ranges. Since higher ranges = better tracking anyway, anything else would be overpowered. Tracking computers are not necessarily better beyond 45km, because to reach beyond 45km, you often have to use a range script. And artillery is not automatically equal to 100km+ ranges either. Medium range combat exists in eve if you want it to exist. And then it pwns.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:53:00 - [8] The short answer is yes. I played with the tracking computer for a long time. I'd increase the tracking of the guns to imitate a tracking computer. I'd then move the tracking back down and move the signature radius up on the target to imitate a target painter. For small ships shooting at small targets the tracking computer was slightly better. (2% difference). That can be easily compensated and bypassed by training the advanced target painter skill (signal focusing). In addition, it is easier to fit then a tracking computer - especially for small ships. Other benefits are: 1) Tracking mods/rigs nerf stack. Target painters do not. A combination of the two means you can hit nano ships solidly. (7-8 target painters on a vaga going 7km/s at 10km = some insanely high chance of all the medium arty in a group of hitting it. Arty has the worst tracking too. Not that you would see 7-8 TP in a group. LOL) 2) Tracking computers only help you. TP help everyone in the group. 3) Target painters since they "suck" can still be used on any ship quite effectively.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.19 17:15:00 - [9] depending on the engagement it sucks not having an EW that can shut your opponent down, but in other situations the webby + TP can be a wicked combination (like, when your moving faster than your opponent, which many ppl in this game think is cheating ) its not that its a weaker EW, its that it is misunderstood. It is offensive where the other's are very much defensive (even nos/neut is defensive if you think of its applications vs tacklers). I would say the only drawback to TPs are that it doesn't really matter to most larger targets if they are painted (where as your powerhouse ships really are screwed if they get damped or jammed in battle)... but thats eve, +'s and -'s
Arkanjuca Caldari Tropa de Elite	Posted - 2008.05.19 17:55:00 - [10] In fact i think TP need more propaganda... Imagine this: You hit xxxx for xx dmg (TP) It tells you that the target only was able to be hit because of the target painter i love TP, and used to fit it a lot, but nowadays i dont... flame on... -- Whatever works for you...
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Arkanjuca In fact i think TP need more propaganda... Imagine this: You hit xxxx for xx dmg (TP) It tells you that the target only was able to be hit because of the target painter i love TP, and used to fit it a lot, but nowadays i dont... flame on... Target painters are a bit odd for EWAR. They are predominately seen as a module meant to help missiles but spending more than 5 minutes playing in the Eve Tracking Guide will show you how mistaken you are. Other EWAR is more obvious in it's effect and directly harm an opponents ability to partake in overtly offensive activities (like shooting) or any activity that involves harming another. Target Painters on the other hand do not decrease your opponent's effectiveness, but rather it increases your own effectiveness against them. Against truly FAST nano ship, loads of tracking computers probably will not help score an effective hit. Throw a Few TP's at a pimped Vaga and all of a sudden guns that couldn't hope to land a blow will start scoring hits. It may indeed be strange but for some reason making the target LARGER makes it easier to hit them in genearal - it doesn't simply overcome the inherit grouping of the weapon system.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 09:08:00 - [12] * Tracking computers help yourself hit something with better tracking = have a better chance in hitting it, and of course hit further. * Target Painters help yourself AND your gang into having better chance for hitting something AND hit it harder. * Webbers are very strong, indeed. Webbing sth makes it an easy target, but range is very limited and unless you are in a Minmatar recon or EAS, webbing something means you risk getting webbed yourself. Also even with MWD on, small and fast targets have a drastically lower sig radius than big guns do. This is hard to understand cause in our "blob" fights the webbed target will go down pretty fast under 10+ ships' fire. Still a TP would make it even easier than a second web on the same target. It's effects are HUGE and ppl claiming the opposite clearly have a long time to actually TRY TPs in combat. Even in BS vs. BS combat, and especially the Torp Raven, a single unbonused meta 3-4 TP can increase dmg dealed vs. another (not MWDing) BS more than 10%, before advanced TP skill! That change would normally require sth like 2-3 lvl V skills combined, and no manual navigation tricks can help you in and out of it. The effective DPS gained against smaller targets, like BCs and Cruisers is way bigger Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 09:13:00 - [13] Originally by: Diomidis * Tracking computers help yourself hit something with better tracking = have a better chance in hitting it, and of course hit further. * Target Painters help yourself AND your gang into having better chance for hitting something AND hit it harder. * Webbers are very strong, indeed. Webbing sth makes it an easy target, but range is very limited and unless you are in a Minmatar recon or EAS, webbing something means you risk getting webbed yourself. Also even with MWD on, small and fast targets have a drastically lower sig radius than big guns do. This is hard to understand cause in our "blob" fights the webbed target will go down pretty fast under 10+ ships' fire. Still a TP would make it even easier than a second web on the same target. It's effects are HUGE and ppl claiming the opposite clearly have a long time to actually TRY TPs in combat. Even in BS vs. BS combat, and especially the Torp Raven, a single unbonused meta 3-4 TP can increase dmg dealed vs. another (not MWDing) BS more than 10%, before advanced TP skill! That change would normally require sth like 2-3 lvl V skills combined, and no manual navigation tricks can help you in and out of it. The effective DPS gained against smaller targets, like BCs and Cruisers is way bigger EDIT: should CCP EVER boost ACs and/or Arties, should also "balance" their signature radius (raise it). That way the dps "boost" would only count in combination with Target Painters, so instantly there will be a Belicose / Rapier / Huginn / Hyena boost too. There you go...TPs will be "in fashion" again. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim
Hanneshannes	Posted - 2008.05.20 09:21:00 - [14] I tend to have a TP on a torp raven :O
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.20 09:56:00 - [15] I love the idea of Minmatar Ewar being offensive. Problems with TPs: 1) They scale badly as targets increase in size. For example, the other races ewar is a little less effective on larger targets but still very useful. But TPs are useless on capital ships and most battleships. If you are in a hurricane, a TP is pretty useless to use on another C/BC/BS, etc etc. 2) Out-classed by webs. Well 1v1 theory-EVE is fun and all, but in a lot of eve combat your target is webbed by something. This is especially apparent on the Huginn/Rapier. There is absolutely zero reason to fit a TP over a web on a Huginn/Rapier. Now it is a good idea to throw a few TPs in your gang to suprise some nano pilots. But really, a lot of people can fly t2 hacs/recons. You gang is just so much better with another hac/recon. Same goes for the bellicose, the bb/celestis/arbitrator is just a million times better addition to your gang than the dumb bellicose. Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
Trigos Trilobi X-Fire	Posted - 2008.05.20 11:17:00 - [16] Maybe make painters the opposite of tracking disruptors. Two scripts, one increases sig radius, other increases optimal and falloff for everyone shooting, or reduces range that is used in turret hit calculations whichever is easier to implement. Might also throw in a bone for amarrs and add +missile explosion radius effect on tracking disruptors to make them more universally applicable and complete the symmetry between painters and disruptors.
GIGAR Caldari Burma Star Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2008.05.20 11:37:00 - [17] Just make T1 a 45% sig radius bonus and T2 a 50% sig radius bonus. Problem solved. Bye bye nanos
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Vaal Erit I love the idea of Minmatar Ewar being offensive. Problems with TPs: 1) They scale badly as targets increase in size. For example, the other races ewar is a little less effective on larger targets but still very useful. But TPs are useless on capital ships and most battleships. If you are in a hurricane, a TP is pretty useless to use on another C/BC/BS, etc etc. 2) Out-classed by webs. Well 1v1 theory-EVE is fun and all, but in a lot of eve combat your target is webbed by something. This is especially apparent on the Huginn/Rapier. There is absolutely zero reason to fit a TP over a web on a Huginn/Rapier. Now it is a good idea to throw a few TPs in your gang to suprise some nano pilots. But really, a lot of people can fly t2 hacs/recons. You gang is just so much better with another hac/recon. Same goes for the bellicose, the bb/celestis/arbitrator is just a million times better addition to your gang than the dumb bellicose. I agree with your second point but not your first. TP can be very effective against nano'd ships- especially the HAC size. Look at my stats in post #3 here for a Muninn. This is better then that of a Hurricane due to the Muninn's tracking bonus, but the numbers still support a TP's usefulness. Artillery in general gets alot better w/ tracking mods/ TP. All things being equal a web is better then a TP. A rapier/huginn has webs that go out at least 40km at recon lvl 5. The optimal of a TP is 45km. Most people prefer the third web or a point. It makes more sense on a Hyena where the difference is 45km TP to 20km Web. Still that is only one ship. And only a rookie is going to be in a vigil or bellicose.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:59:00 - [19] For information purposes I ran the following equation on the tracking guide: Maelstrom w/ Scout 1400mm and republic fleet titanium sabot rounds- the gun with the worst tracking in the game. The mael has no tracking mods on it. I chose to shoot at a Macharial. I threw a Gisti MWD and three republic fleet overdrives on it. It would go 3387m/s and have a signature radius of 2492.2m. My stats on my admitted PVE mael's guns are: Optimal - 50400m Falloff - 42000m Tracking - .01125 RoF - 11.05493 Dmg Mod - 12.30619 (For those who want to recreate this.) The chances to hit the mach assuming it's angular velocity is 3387m/s (worst possible) and the ranges for it are: 20km-0%; 25km-8%; 30km-18%; 35km-28%; 40km-38%; 45km-45%; 50km-52%; 65.27km-62.7% Pretty bad, eh? Let's throw a TP into the mix. The mach's signature radius at my skill lvl would go up to 3389.392m. The new chances to hit would be: 20km-11%; 25km-25%; 30km-38%; 35km-49%; 40km-58%; 45-65%; 50-70%; 60.55km-75.64% This is a pretty extreme situation. Most BS don't go over 3km/s. But it's an example of a large ship shooting at a large target and the benefits of the TP therein. And in the words of Forest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that...."
Veryez	Posted - 2008.05.20 13:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf For information purposes I ran the following equation on the tracking guide: ... And in the words of Forest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that...." Now for fun run 2 fleeting webs (95%) on the tracking guide - considering the same recons can use overloaded webs at the same range as optimal TP's. Sorry but webs are far more useful on minmatar recons than TP's for almost all situations. Sure you could double paint that crow going 15k/s, but will torps hit it? No. But double web him and watch him pop. Yes TP's have some uses, but they are extremely situational dependent. What's worse is that they compete with both webs and tank for midslots on our recons - which makes them even less desirable. They are consistently the odd-module-out because of this. Do you really think a nano-HAC worries about getting painted? His MWD increases his sig radius more than 2 max skill TP's - doesn't stop him from using it. But watch him steer away from any Rapier/Huginn. Obviously the Nano pilot must be wrong - since painting is so valuable..... Give them to Caldari recons for all I care (I won't use them there either). Give up, it's a stupid form of EW that will never be as useful as the others, and CCP will never do anything to improve them. For all those who sing their praises a simple question, which form of EW would you be willing to remove from your recons to get them added?
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc Black-Out	Posted - 2008.05.20 13:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Jalif Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:46:14 Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:41:36 Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:40:19 Edited by: Jalif on 19/05/2008 14:38:58 My Opinion/Conclusion Well, I think that electronic warfare of the minmatar is rather weak. Not the webbers, but mainly the target painters. They have no specific role if everybody gets webbed every single time. You could have an huggin targetpainting the primary targets & secondary targets in a large fleet. But to be honest I see them hunting with webbers after interceptors or other support ships. Dude..ur minmatar..the day u start complaining about ur ships being no good is the day Ammar pilots say "were-overpowered" U have crazy nano-ships, awesome dps ships and ur complaining about ew?? even when the hughin/rapier has webber bonus's anyway and has sweet ew abilities.. Next ur gonna complain "why do jove ships have no ewar" or something "The assymetrical horrors of the motherland will rise, the mechanical beasts will depart from the dark, we will not perish, we will not fail. The Reign of the Caldari State is nigh."
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Veryez Originally by: Zarnak Wulf For information purposes I ran the following equation on the tracking guide: ... And in the words of Forest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that...." Now for fun run 2 fleeting webs (95%) on the tracking guide - considering the same recons can use overloaded webs at the same range as optimal TP's. Sorry but webs are far more useful on minmatar recons than TP's * First off all he points that even vs. a BS the Mael will have better chances with it's ugly tracking 1400's, not an uber-nanoed HAS/Cruiser * Secondary: he is using an unbonused TP that could be mounted on the artie BS itself, you are dropping a Recon in the equation out of the blue... * And finally, all of us wtb "un-bonused" 90% webbers with a TP's optimal... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Ruciza on 20/05/2008 14:55:39 Quote: Quote: For information purposes I ran the following equation on the tracking guide: Sorry but webs are far more useful in almost all situations The question is not so much how much the painters help the Maelstrom hitting the Mach, the question is is how much do the painters help the Mach hit the Maelstrom. A webber doesn't help here, a painter does. The Mach could maneuver at speed and still hit, while with a webbed target it would need to stop to get the full tracking advantage. THAT is the main purpose of painters, it's not so much used for anti-arcraft, it's used for air-to-ground (with the Mach being the bomber, and the Mael the AAA emplacement). A Huginn supporting the Mael should concentrate on webs, while a Huginn supporting the Mach should concentrate on painters in this situation. Exchange the Mach for a given Minmatar ship, and you got the purpose of painters in general.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Maybe make painters the opposite of tracking disruptors. Two scripts, one increases sig radius, other increases optimal and falloff for everyone shooting, or reduces range that is used in turret hit calculations whichever is easier to implement. Might also throw in a bone for amarrs and add +missile explosion radius effect on tracking disruptors to make them more universally applicable and complete the symmetry between painters and disruptors. I actually think that the best solution to EWAR is something similar to this. Scripts have already been introducted so it's not unthinkable to use more of them. The biggest problem with much of the EWAR and anti-EWAR modules is the limited usefulness on certain setups or situations. Thus, my suggestion is to change ewar into a more generalist set of items to increase their flexability and usefulness while increasing the potential for defense against ewar. First off: EWAR ECM - All ECM modules become multispectral, with scripts to move them into the racial type. Swapping of scripts would not be an instant affair, but rather it should take as long (preferably longer) as swapping ammo types. Tracking Disriptors - Made into targeting disruptors. As a generalist item, the system reduces tracking and optimal of turrets AND decreases explosion velocity (missile equivalent to tracking) and flight timme (rough equivalent to range). Damps - system remains the same BUT their current effect is boosted slightly along with the range of the module on bonused ships such that what ECM hits in optimal, Damps hit in falloff (to mimic the chance based nature of ECM when playing in ECM's turf) Target Painters - Being the one off module in that it increase offensive potential against a ship, the only thing I can see doing is boosting the range so a TP carrying ship could operate well outside the horrible *****area. Anti EWAR Modules ECCM is outright removed from the game and added as a sensor booster script. Sensor boosters would become the new "sensor based" ECCM, with scripts for lock range, lock time and sensor strength. ECCM would no longer be a "if you can't possibly use any more tank or gank" module and should find it's wsy onto more ships in general. Tracking computers/enhancers boost the explosion velocity (not flight time) of missiles in addition to increasing tracking/optimal per appropiate scripts or a general bonus. In a nutshell, you remove the downside of Tracking Disrptors (in that they do nothing against missile ships), boost the effectiveness of damps to a point that they might see larger scale implementation especially on bonused ships, and turn ECM into a more flexible EWAR module and increase the versatility of the anti-Ewar module immensely, hopefully to the point that it becomes a real gamble to not take at least one of the appropiate items with you. Most fleet battleships for example have an Sensor Booster but few have slots left to fit ECCM. Sure it may be "homogenizing" the game to an extent but given the extreme disparity in the usefulness of the various racial EWAR's, the simple fact of life is homoginization is better than obselescence.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.05.21 01:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Diomidis * First off all he points that even vs. a BS the Mael will have better chances with it's ugly tracking 1400's, not an uber-nanoed HAS/Cruiser * Secondary: he is using an unbonused TP that could be mounted on the artie BS itself, you are dropping a Recon in the equation out of the blue... So a TP (optimal 45, falloff 90) is a good choice to put on a mael with 1400's? Originally by: Diomidis * And finally, all of us wtb "un-bonused" 90% webbers with a TP's optimal... Where did I mention unbonused webs??? , being that it's a WASTE to put TP's on artillery ships - the only logical use of TP's for long range ships is having a bonused ship do the painting for you.....But I guess I'm wrong so please post your Target Painting, Mael setup.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings	Posted - 2008.05.21 01:56:00 - [26] Edited by: DubanFP on 21/05/2008 01:57:44 You guys have all forgotten the most importaint thing thing in the webbers V Target painters thing. Target paint a nanoship and you might hit him slightly better, sure. Right before he hits the MWD and runs like hell. Web a nanoship and he'll be right there up until the boom. The extra tracking is nice, but i'll take a dead nanoship over a fleeing nanoship any day. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.05.21 02:23:00 - [27] I've said throughout this thread that I agreed a web is better then a TP where it can be applied. I've even gone so far to say that it didn't make sense to put a TP on a rapier/huginn given that they both have the same optimal. However most ships don't have the 20-40km web option. The most they can hope for in a fiscally conservative way is 13km overheated. The TP can go out 40km-ish on any ship. I've put a TP on a dessy and done some cheap PvP. I've killed a gisti/polycarboned crow, stilleto, and hyena. These ships would wiz about me with an angular velocity of .25-.3. My guns would track at about .19. Yet with the target painter I got good strikes on the targets. They have all died in three salvoes. Many more would run away in structure. I would put a TP on a Muninn, Hurricane, Typhoon, or armor tanked Tempest. I would not take a Mael into PvP as its an expensive arty ship. I have retired for a while to mission running and HAVE put a TP on it. It generally kills ships at optimal or less with one or two fewer salvoes. Saves on the ammo. And I can still effectively tank the rats. It all comes down to choice. I personally think the TP is great.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.05.21 02:36:00 - [28] Regarding minmatar recons: - In most targets, excepting targets that move at around 10Km/s or more, two Webs and one painter produce much better results than three webs. - In slower targets and/or smaller targets one web and one painter are already better than 2 webs. - for standard and heavy missiles 1 web and one painter is much better than 2 webs at all times. Regarding anything non-minmatar recon: - painters improve tracking MORE than tracking computers or tracking enhancers. As both are penalized if you want REAL good tracking, combine both. - a painter allows slower ships to hit most nanoships where a web couldn't even dream of helping you in any way ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.21 05:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Regarding minmatar recons: - In most targets, excepting targets that move at around 10Km/s or more, two Webs and one painter produce much better results than three webs. - In slower targets and/or smaller targets one web and one painter are already better than 2 webs. - for standard and heavy missiles 1 web and one painter is much better than 2 webs at all times. Regarding anything non-minmatar recon: - painters improve tracking MORE than tracking computers or tracking enhancers. As both are penalized if you want REAL good tracking, combine both. - a painter allows slower ships to hit most nanoships where a web couldn't even dream of helping you in any way This is so completely wrong. You have absolutely zero knowledge of how eve pvp works. Going 10km/s, that means the enemy is an interceptor. A double webbed interceptor will die in about 15 seconds. A target painter adds nothing. Vs small targets once again, if it is webbed, it is dead. Wow you painted it with 10,000 painters, who cares. Vs large targets two webs are better since a single webbed MWDing BS can travel 100-150m/s. TP applied to such BS does nothing, but the second web brings him to a halt so he cannot reapproach station/gate/pos. The Vs nano ships is a good argument. But contrary to popular opinion, the majority of ships in eve are not nano-ships. And even so a web on a nanoship is much much better than a TP (if you can get a web on that is) Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
Trigos Trilobi X-Fire	Posted - 2008.05.21 06:31:00 - [30] Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 21/05/2008 06:31:49 The TPs do fit in nicely with acs, a bellicose double paints the target from afar, which augments the ac tracking advantage for your close range ac boats, which can then move into an even tighter orbit and hit well themselves while the opponent hits even worse due to increased angular velocity. Or that's how beautifully it'd work if speed tanking wasn't horribly broken as it is. I agree with the above that TPs are easily a noticeable, if not even considerable boost for your turret damage against nano boats, but you'll never kill a nano boat that way, you'll just force him to flee. For killing, you need a web or a ship as fast as the enemy, both cases at which point TP stops being useful. So the use which I actually see playing very well with/into minmatars racial advantages and kind of clever design, is rendered useless because of broken speed tanking mechanics, and the anti-nano use while sort of effective, will not help you kill anything.

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