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Kul Starstorm	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:27:00 - [1] This will be good in the popularity stakes for Iceland, or not? BBC whaling news. If it's possible to have any form of rational discussion over this. Lets open arguments with something like. 100 whales and a national economy survives or is stimulated? For each whale killed a thousand tourists stay away? See if we can remain civil. Anyone fancy commenting?
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:30:00 - [2] That whale isn't... white... is it?
Akiba Penrose Minmatar PAK	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:43:00 - [3] What is the best arguments against whaling? Why does it differ from other mamals, is it the big brain or the hunting technique?
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:55:00 - [4] Originally by: Akiba Penrose What is the best arguments against whaling? Why does it differ from other mamals, is it the big brain or the hunting technique? I think it's because there is literally NO humane way to kill a whale. No matter what you do, it will die a drawn-out lingering death. Unless you refrain from hunting it.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 00:02:00 - [5] Originally by: Akiba Penrose What is the best arguments against whaling? Why does it differ from other mamals, is it the big brain or the hunting technique? Aside from the various animal rights issues (cruelty, intelligence, etc) there is another pressing one. Many of the most popular species for traditional (pre-ban) whaling are endangered, and unrestricted whaling WILL lead to extinctions. Not only would this be more cruelty, but it also harms humans; if all the whales are gone, there'll be no more whaling ever, and the scientific research to come out of whale studies is hugely important in all sorts of fields. ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
InzanityFO Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.20 00:22:00 - [6] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Akiba Penrose What is the best arguments against whaling? Why does it differ from other mamals, is it the big brain or the hunting technique? I think it's because there is literally NO humane way to kill a whale. No matter what you do, it will die a drawn-out lingering death. Unless you refrain from hunting it. Thats BS. When we (Faroe Islands) kill whales we sever the spine with a large knife, so that they die within seconds. And the whales (pilot whales) we hunt are not endangered in any way.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:06:00 - [7] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 20/05/2008 01:07:44 Originally by: InzanityFO Thats BS. When we (Faroe Islands) kill whales we sever the spine with a large knife, so that they die within seconds. And the whales (pilot whales) we hunt are not endangered in any way. Yep...so humane (WARNING: vid is not pleasant to watch). Perhaps you guys are humane (it does seem the whale hunt in the Faroe Islands is heavily regulated and attempts to be as humane as can be) but I think the link above shows you cannot count on everyone to be that way. And "die with in seconds" is a bit vague: Quote: Once ashore the pilot whale is killed by cutting the dorsal area through to the spinal cord with a special whaling knife, a grindaknfvur. Given the circumstances during a pilot whale hunt, the whaling knife is considered the safest and most effective equipment with which to kill the whales. Naturally since the whales are killed manually death cannot, by definition, be instantaneous. The length it takes for a whale to die varies between a few seconds to a few minutes, with the average time being 30 seconds. SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_the_Faroe_Islands -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.05.20 02:35:00 - [8] Edited by: Keorythe on 20/05/2008 02:38:17 Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Akiba Penrose Many of the most popular species for traditional (pre-ban) whaling are endangered, and unrestricted whaling WILL lead to extinctions. Fin whales are not extinct nor do they come close to being extinct by the set quotas. If this was unrestricted whaling as they did in the old old days then there would be a problem. Traditional species hunted aren't really traditional anymore as their endangerment has made them hands off to whalers. Many people can't stomach the idea that killing something for food might not be as quick as they would want it to be for their own gratification. Many can't even stand the sight of something dying or the sight of blood. At some point they'll even go vegan (usually for a short period) once again for self-gratification which is short of an insult to real die hard vegans. On top of that, the dolphin slaughter movie gets shown over and over again trying to group that company's methods with every other whaler or fisherman out there. Its like Bambi all over again.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 03:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Keorythe Many people can't stomach the idea that killing something for food might not be as quick as they would want it to be for their own gratification. Many can't even stand the sight of something dying or the sight of blood. At some point they'll even go vegan (usually for a short period) once again for self-gratification which is short of an insult to real die hard vegans. On top of that, the dolphin slaughter movie gets shown over and over again trying to group that company's methods with every other whaler or fisherman out there. Its like Bambi all over again. Hardly like Bambi. Perhaps it is the method. Fin whales can weigh in at 70,000 kilos. I am just not sure how you kill something like that swiftly and (mostly) painlessly. More like it means a 50 kilo exploding harpoon in the back then dragged onto the ship and get hacked to death. And what is it with "tradition". Tradition does not make a thing good or bad by itself and is no argument one way or another. There were many traditions throughout history that I doubt anyone would be ok with today but would argue they should be here because it was "traditional". -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2008.05.20 04:03:00 - [10] If it's sustainable, go for it. As for the whale's suffering, I'd rather a whale die horribly than have fishermen get their houses seized 'cause they can't make a living anymore.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.20 06:25:00 - [11] Rationality leaves in 3.....2.....1 NUKE THE WHALES!!!!! () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.05.20 06:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Hardly like Bambi. Perhaps it is the method. Fin whales can weigh in at 70,000 kilos. I am just not sure how you kill something like that swiftly and (mostly) painlessly. Try reading the original storyline for Bambi (Bambi, ein Leben im Walde aka Bambi, a life in the woods). You might be able to find translated versions online or you can go to that old big building we old timers had to use called a "library". Walt Disney just about had a heart attack as it portrayed the animals in their cruel environments so instead warped the entire story to his liking. The size of an animal doesn't speed or slow its death. A harpoon to the heart causes massive bleedout and the shock can cause almost instantaneous death. Other vital areas will cause bleedout especially in a water environment in a few seconds. Worst case scenario is a total miss of all vitals in which case the shooter should have his license revoked. Granted I believe there were explosive harpoons at one time I don't think they're using them today. Harpoons are akin to standard combat arrows (not bodkins) with multiple blades to cut the largest area possible and cause the greatest amount of blood loss as possible.
Tatsu Tahime	Posted - 2008.05.20 07:46:00 - [13] Regarding whale watching as a suitable alternative: Something which a lot of people who are advocating this fail to realise is that whale watching is just as intrusive and disruptive to the whales' lives as hunting, perhaps even more so because the boats are chasing them almost all year round. A couple of years ago I went diving in the Red Sea. Couple of hours boat trip from our dive base was a horseshoe shaped coral atoll which dolphins had been using as a nursery for decades. Of course this turned into big business...come and go snorkelling with baby dolphins...and over the last five years the numbers of dolphins present at this atoll dropped from over 300 to around 40, with numbers dropping ever further. Similar disruption can and will occur with the whales, especially once the whale watching boats head to places they know where there will be whales (because once someone has paid good hard cash to see a whale they want to see a whale). If this idiotic reasoning of replacing whale hunting with whale watching goes ahead, we'll see the same eco-warrior do-gooders getting their knickers in a twist about the psychological damage and disruption of migration paths caused by whale watching in ten years time. I'll put money on that. Just once I would like to see one of these eco-groups make a statement to the press that is a) rational and b) includes some form of suggestion as to what a government should do about the people and businesses who would stand to lose jobs if whale hunting was stopped completely right this instance. And this does not just apply to the crews of the whale boats. Like any industry there are ancillary businesses who support the whale boats. Packaging and distribution, fuel sales, shipyards and warehousing to name just a few. Removing this from one day to the next is folly, especially in as economically fragile areas as fishing towns.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.20 08:09:00 - [14] EVE needs more of this sort of thing. Obligatory link. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:03:00 - [15] If you are against whaling because you think its cruel you better be against the assembly line butchery we have today. Its just as cruel. If not, then you are a hypocrit. I'm Norwegian and I eat whale. You want to critise me for it, clean up your own backyard first. In it for the state

CCP Eris Discordia	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:12:00 - [16] No animal has to be killed for me to eat, what people do and how they feel about it is their own choice (unless an animal is near extinction)but for me the idea of some animal dying for me is intolerable. Then again I believe animals and humans are the same thing and I¦d like to see us extend more care to animals, especially pets. Some people simply shouldn¦t own a pet, they prolong animal cruelty for their amusements. With whale hunting at least the animal does die in the end. I don¦t eat meat nor fish, but I¦m not a vegan. Pink Dread has been hijacked

Rutefly Amarr Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:13:00 - [17] I could just eat eris up wiff hair and all. Shes so cuuuute
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:15:00 - [18] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I don¦t eat meat nor fish, but I¦m not a vegan. What do you eat then, insects? In it for the state
Akiba Penrose Minmatar PAK	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Haakon Jarl Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I don¦t eat meat nor fish, but I¦m not a vegan. What do you eat then, insects? lol

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Haakon Jarl Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I don¦t eat meat nor fish, but I¦m not a vegan. What do you eat then, insects? Well a Vegan would abstain from all animal products. So no milk, eggs, gelatine or anything containing any traces of any animal or animal product at all.

Hooch Flux Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:39:00 - [21] One really good reason not to hunt whale's to extinction.... Leads to really bad Star Trek film! I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit... Only way to be sure!
Khadur Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.20 13:07:00 - [22] lol
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.20 13:23:00 - [23] Originally by: CCP Whisper Well a Vegan would abstain from all animal products. So no milk, eggs, gelatine or anything containing any traces of any animal or animal product at all. AHHHH, I see! In it for the state
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Exxxotic	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:11:00 - [24] whales are non sustainable, if like cows, sheep etc and were breed in large numbers i could at least live with it, but they are not and therefor should not be hunted IMO
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Tatsu Tahime Similar disruption can and will occur with the whales, especially once the whale watching boats head to places they know where there will be whales (because once someone has paid good hard cash to see a whale they want to see a whale). If this idiotic reasoning of replacing whale hunting with whale watching goes ahead, we'll see the same eco-warrior do-gooders getting their knickers in a twist about the psychological damage and disruption of migration paths caused by whale watching in ten years time. I'll put money on that. Depends where you are. I have never been on a whale watching boat but talking to those who have told me the boat is under strict guidelines about what it can do and how many boats are allowed to go out so the things do not get mobbed. They are not allowed to approach too closely nor is anyone allowed in the water with the whales (no divers). I do not know but considering where you were it would not surprise me if such regulations were non-existent or routinely ignored. In short whalewatching can be done responsibly. International Whalewatching Guidelines Review of Whalewatching Regulations Around the World (PDF) -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:13:00 - [26] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Then again I believe animals and humans are the same thing and I¦d like to see us extend more care to animals, especially pets. Some people simply shouldn¦t own a pet, they prolong animal cruelty for their amusements. With whale hunting at least the animal does die in the end. That seems...perverse. Animal suffering is not as bad as long as the animal dies? -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Xtreem whales are non sustainable, if like cows, sheep etc and were breed in large numbers i could at least live with it, but they are not and therefor should not be hunted IMO That all depends on the quotas. The reason why many species dissapeared in the past is because man had simply not considered the thought that one day there might not be any left. In it for the state
Kyrall Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:41:00 - [28] An interesting point on "humane" killing: My dad used to be a fox huntsman, and part of his work was collecting dead livestock from farms for disposal (ie feeding to the hounds). He once was waiting for a vet to put down a horse. The owner insisted on a "humane" death, so he used a lethal injection. It staggered around for maybe 20 minutes in confusion and obvious suffering before it died; my dad could have shot it for an instant death and had it skinned by then! Presumably the vet didn't use enough to kill it quickly in that case, but even with the right amount it wouldn't die quickly. I guess my point is that there isn't such a thing as a "nice" death, and often the most "humane" death can seem brutal to people that don't deal with death a lot, like the majority of humans! These are things that everyone likes to have an opinion on, but are really best left to the experts. - Originally by: Kyrall Pfft antivirus? Real men use a hard drive tank.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Kyrall I guess my point is that there isn't such a thing as a "nice" death, and often the most "humane" death can seem brutal to people that don't deal with death a lot, like the majority of humans! These are things that everyone likes to have an opinion on, but are really best left to the experts. I agree there is no "nice" death. However I think we can safely say a good death should be as quick as possible and as painless as possible. In the case of whales the best numbers I could find (admittedly from a source with an anti-whaling agenda) is only 50% of the whales are killed instantly (less than 10 seconds) by explosive harpoons. Average time to death is 3+ minutes. Longest time to death is over 50 minutes. (cite) The above numbers are not very encouraging to my eyes. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The above numbers are not very encouraging to my eyes. People with terminal cancer who are not allowed to die is even less encouraging. In it for the state
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Haakon Jarl Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The above numbers are not very encouraging to my eyes. People with terminal cancer who are not allowed to die is even less encouraging. Yeah. And? -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Haakon Jarl Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The above numbers are not very encouraging to my eyes. People with terminal cancer who are not allowed to die is even less encouraging. Yeah. And? 'and?' It seams pretty ****** to use the suffering of whales as an example when you dont give a damn about actual humans suffering. Unless of corse you think whales are more worth than humans In it for the state**
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Haakon Jarl 'and?' It seams pretty ******** to use the suffering of whales as an example when you dont give a damn about actual humans suffering. Unless of corse you think whales are more worth than humans Where did I say or suggest I did not care about human suffering? Besides, those are two unrelated issues. Being for or against whaling in no way implies a position on human suffering. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:40:00 - [34] Edited by: Haakon Jarl on 20/05/2008 16:40:03 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Where did I say or suggest I did not care about human suffering? You didn't. But what I do see is countless of thread appearing all over the internets about people who are 'concerned' about whales suffering yet not a single one about people with terminal cancer of other nasty diseases. Quote: Besides, those are two unrelated issues. Being for or against whaling in no way implies a position on human suffering. Well that al depends on your reasons doesn't it? In it for the state
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Kyrall Presumably the vet didn't use enough to kill it quickly in that case, but even with the right amount it wouldn't die quickly. I guess my point is that there isn't such a thing as a "nice" death, and often the most "humane" death can seem brutal to people that don't deal with death a lot, like the majority of humans! These are things that everyone likes to have an opinion on, but are really best left to the experts. Dunno about that. I had to get my dog put down a few years ago (had a fatal somethingorother illness), and I was there when they did it. They use an overdose of anaesthetic, and he basically went to sleep. Seemed quite happy about it, bless 'im. Seemed a lot more humane than shooting him with an exploding harpoon from a distance, although admittedly I'm no expert in these things... ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Avalira Caldari Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:07:00 - [36] Why not inject the whale with something that puts it in a deep sleep? That way it doesn't feel anything. Just have to make sure nothing is left when selling the meat. ------------- Selling the following: Probe BPC's ARK JF 4.5b
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Avalira Why not inject the whale with something that puts it in a deep sleep? That way it doesn't feel anything. Just have to make sure nothing is left when selling the meat. I'm guessing you'd need a serious amount of some serious drugs to anaesthetise a whale to death. Not exactly economic
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:51:00 - [38] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 20/05/2008 17:51:00 Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Avalira Why not inject the whale with something that puts it in a deep sleep? That way it doesn't feel anything. Just have to make sure nothing is left when selling the meat. I'm guessing you'd need a serious amount of some serious drugs to anaesthetise a whale to death. Not exactly economic Not to mention many whales sink when they die. They need to have something stuck in them to pull them to the boat (IIRC some whales float when dead, I think one of the reason the Right Whale got its name was because it floated when dead making it the "right" whale to hunt). But yeah, for a 70,000 kilo animal I think you would need gallons of anesthetic. Delivery and cost would likely be a problem. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:56:00 - [39] I can understand why people would want to hunt whales now days, but that does not mean I like the idea. I just believe that whales are just a little to smart for us to go kill, but I guess if the population is not allowed to be depleted then I guess I have to be fine with it. The one thing that I hope that does not occur in the whaling industry is baiting. I hope that anyone whaling does not use sonar to attract whales to get killed, like the dolphin slaughters used in Imperators' video post. Using sonar to attract whales or other mammals is called baiting. Here in the states it is illegal to bait animals you are hunting. For example you are not allowed to lay salt licks or corn feed out to attract deer to kill. This would be akin to saying, "hey doggy doggy come here little guy", and when he come you go thud as a crowbar splits its skull. Just not cool. In defense of the individuals that eat whale, there are societies that eat little puppies, and trust me watching a little puppy get gutted while still alive is not so cool either. People just need to realize that their ancestors that started these "traditions" tended to felt pain from their deaths, revere the animals for sustaining their personal lives, and the hunting cycle was one of the preeminent causes of the religious experience in indigenous peoples. Slade

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