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Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:50:00 - [1] I fly an inty with a 2k AB speed. I've been noticing a loss of hits due to my speed. Had to drop an overderive and throw on a tracking comp. What I need to know is, how is speed calculated into the accuracy. So far accuracy drop is only on frigates. I hit cruisers fine. But i'm worried as I do get faster then I might be screwing myself and will have to slow down just to do damage.
Blancanieves Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:03:00 - [2] Edited by: Blancanieves on 20/05/2008 15:02:54 Edited by: Blancanieves on 20/05/2008 15:02:43 Have a look at the tracking guide in the player guide (link is to the left: EVE ONLINE->Player Guide)
Inoue Zael Sa'ju Kal	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:05:00 - [3] inty's should always be fit with microwarpdrives IMHO. What does Jury rigging V do? Originally by: Viqtoria make courtrooms swing in your favour more often.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Inoue Zael inty's should always be fit with microwarpdrives IMHO. Unless he's using it for PVE in which case inty's shouldn't be used at all. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:08:00 - [5] I like the reduced sig radius, and am not a fan of the 500% increase from MWD's. Plus I like to hit DED'd alot.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:10:00 - [6] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:11:17 Originally by: Feraldeth I like the reduced sig radius, and am not a fan of the 500% increase from MWD's. Plus I like to hit DED'd alot. Yeah but the second you get webbed you're dead. Trust me the MWD is the only way to go. Also DO NOT USE THEM FOR PVE. Interceptors are primarily team oriented PVP ships. Get a cruiser or battlecruiser for PVE. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:11:00 - [7] Edited by: Dheorl on 20/05/2008 15:12:42 Originally by: Inoue Zael inty's should always be fit with microwarpdrives IMHO. Just not true, AB inty's can kick ass when used right. Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Feraldeth I like the reduced sig radius, and am not a fan of the 500% increase from MWD's. Plus I like to hit DED'd alot. Yeah but the second you get webbed you're dead. Also not true. You try tracking a guy going 250m/s using cruiser sized guns when he has the sig of a mosquito.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:13:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:14:30 Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: Inoue Zael inty's should always be fit with microwarpdrives IMHO. Just not true, AB inty's can kick ass when used right. sorry but that's just asking to be webbed which would mean instant death to any inty. The best thing you can do is not get webbed in the first place. I have to agree with inoue. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:17:00 - [9] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:19:08 Originally by: Dheorl Also not true. You try tracking a guy going 250m/s using cruiser sized guns when he has the sig of a mosquito. And then his 20 friends show up and pop you because you don't have any hope of escaping warp disruptor range to run at 250m/s. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:24:00 - [10] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:19:08 Originally by: Dheorl Also not true. You try tracking a guy going 250m/s using cruiser sized guns when he has the sig of a mosquito. And then his 20 friends show up and pop you because you don't have any hope of escaping warp disruptor range to run at 250m/s. I suppose in situations such as that then yes, MWD would be best, but I use it for solo pirating and fly it kinda like a faster AF.
Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:29:00 - [11] I prefer to stay outta web range. I beam it up at 20k. I figure with enough time and resouces ill be able to stay outta web range well.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:31:00 - [12] The speed is not just for avoiding being hit, it's also for dictating range (when you're tackling something), for closing range quickly (to tackle something), and for getting away quickly (when that is needed). Also, unlike turrets, when speed tanking against drones and missiles, once you're going above a certain speed, it won't matter how big your sig radius is. You'll be safe just on pure speed. Therefore, mwd is almost always better than afterburner on interceptors.
Inoue Zael Sa'ju Kal	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:36:00 - [13] The only time id fit an AB on a ceptor is if i was putting it in a blasteranis. Even then, id still feel better in with a MWD. By putting an AB on a ceptor, you completely give up the one thing that makes them ceptors. You get 2km/ with an AB on your ceptor. A jaguar with a mwd goes faster than that, and will have more tank, damage. And for pve, there are waaaaay better choices out there. What does Jury rigging V do? Originally by: Viqtoria make courtrooms swing in your favour more often.
Nuclear Warrior	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:39:00 - [14] If your inty is travelling under 8000m/s its useless. It will be outrun by most nano-cruisers, and light-heavy missiles and drones will tear the living **** out of it and its not fast enough to bridge huge distances before the enemy can react.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:40:00 - [15] The guy could be hitting plex's and hitting people in there, so there is valid reasons to use a ab and orbit outside web range. -- Billion Isk Mission
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:47:00 - [16] Thats why I don't engage nano cruisers of AF's in mine. If the guy has backup then yes, I will die but then again is the guy has reasonable backup a MWDing inty could die as well (obviously less of a chance but meh).
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:49:00 - [17] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:19:08 Originally by: Dheorl Also not true. You try tracking a guy going 250m/s using cruiser sized guns when he has the sig of a mosquito. And then his 20 friends show up and pop you because you don't have any hope of escaping warp disruptor range to run at 250m/s. To be fair - the inty may indeed have a web of it's own, and an webbed AB inty actually has a pretty decent shot at outrunning a webbed MWD cruiser. But let's be even more fair - inty's are the second smallest thing in the game (next to pods) - ANY ship has targeting issues if the thing is standing still. Much of the "web = dead" philosophy comes from the assumption that a ship is ALWAYS going to be running a MWD, thus making it easily targetable by cruiser sized guns. Some assault ships can be made into a reasonably effective boat simply by ignoring the mantra that M in MWD means mandatory. Use An AB to get in range, hold it here and orbit at point blank range. By using the small size of an Afrig to your advantage rather than throwing it away with MWD, some of the more maligned designs can actually become somewhat effective, especially when you consider you have the fitting to actually fit tank and gank. As to wether this hold true with interceptors, I couldn't tell ya.
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:51:00 - [18] i have used AB ares... whit snakes it can be quite fast for catching mission runner or pelxers :D ---------------------------------- Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:52:00 - [19] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:54:30 Originally by: Dheorl Thats why I don't engage nano cruisers of AF's in mine. If the guy has backup then yes, I will die but then again is the guy has reasonable backup a MWDing inty could die as well (obviously less of a chance but meh). If the inty is smart enough to watch the 360 scanner then he'll see the backup well in advance and run like hell if he has MWD and fights outside web range, but w/e. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.20 15:57:00 - [20] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Dheorl Thats why I don't engage nano cruisers of AF's in mine. If the guy has backup then yes, I will die but then again is the guy has reasonable backup a MWDing inty could die as well (obviously less of a chance but meh). If the inty is smart enough to watch the 360 scanner then he'll see the backup well in advance and run like hell if he has MWD and fights outside web range. Using an AB instead of a MWD is just sacrificing the ceptor's best asset which is the abillity to dictate range. Often the combat interceptor is dictating range in the form of keeping a point on someone but staying outside webrange - useful if your goal is simple survival but the vast majority of interceptors are unable to deal damage at speed and/or range. Still, there's a fair chance an AB inty could kill a PVE fit cruiser, and if you're trying to kill people in complplexes I suppose there are sillier options to try.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:00:00 - [21] Why do you guys argues the merits of an afterburner inty vs a mwd inty giving specific examples? Any setup given any specific situation can work - don't say if x happens my setup will win - and then counter that argument by saying well I would have y friends over anyways and blow you up still. There are always situations where an unexpected surprise can help you win a fight. I've experimented with AB Raptors, and found the sig radius tank to be useful in some tackling roles. An afterburner inty's biggest threat is other frigates/drones - anything larger however will struggle to damage you (either missing or missile explosion radius). However small turrets, light missiles, rockets, and drones will make short work of you. So you have to pick your target like you do with any ship. MWD inty has the bonus of disengaging at will by staying out of web range - and with current speed tank mechanics - high speed > large sig penalty. However unless your inty has missiles it will struggle to do much damage at high speeds. The OP wants to do damage in his inty - and go slow enough to have his weapons track - yet use his small sig radius to help him stay alive. Avoiding small weapons fire the interceptor can manage that in a lot of situations. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:06:00 - [22] Well, I still have many more skills to improve upon, but at current i can take out cruiser rats with no problem. Eventually I plan to outrun the drones and missles. But yes, pick and choose is how i live.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:07:00 - [23] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 16:07:40 Originally by: Feraldeth Well, I still have many more skills to improve upon, but at current i can take out cruiser rats with no problem. Eventually I plan to outrun the drones and missles. But yes, pick and choose is how i live. Everything we've been talking about is PVP, player vs players. For fighting rats i think it's pretty much agreed that ceptors are not the way to go. Get a cruiser or battlecruiser for making isk. Ceptors just don't have the DPS to blow through missions fast enough to be worth it. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:10:00 - [24] I kill rats while I can't find targets. Gotta make money somehow.
Inoue Zael Sa'ju Kal	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Omarvelous However small turrets, light missiles, rockets, and drones will make short work of you. Not when you have your bloody MWD on. Exceptions are the slow inty's like the taranis. Even then i can get mine past 5km/s no problem. Plus with overload it willl go faster Originally by: Omarvelous However unless your inty has missiles it will struggle to do much damage at high speeds. Interceptors are for tackling. With the exception of the ranis, most inty's do pitiful damage. Who gives a crud if you manage to hit a wrecking shot of 5 damage. (with the exception of th ranis, but thats a whole different play style) Originally by: Omarvelous The OP wants to do damage in his inty - and go slow enough to have his weapons track - yet use his small sig radius to help him stay alive. Its like this: If you want to hit something out of webrange, you damage is goign to be **ty (small rails, beams, arty, missiles). If you want to switch to close range weapons for more dps (pulse, blasters, ac's, rockets) more often than not, you will be in webrage, which means your AB will screw you over even more. Originally by:** Omarvelous Avoiding small weapons fire the interceptor can manage that in a lot of situations. A MWD cepter will avoid more small arms fire than an AB ceptor ever will What does Jury rigging V do? Originally by: Viqtoria make courtrooms swing in your favour more often.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Feraldeth Well, I still have many more skills to improve upon, but at current i can take out cruiser rats with no problem. Eventually I plan to outrun the drones and missles. But yes, pick and choose is how i live. Why don't you try a AF? I know they are weak in many ways, still these fit the AB + low sig role perfectly. The retribution cannot pvp but has double the dps than the other amarr ceptors, and the Vengeance has a sick tank - perhaps the only frig sized ship that #$)(!@(# doesn't care when flying into web range Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Inoue Zael Originally by: Omarvelous However small turrets, light missiles, rockets, and drones will make short work of you. Not when you have your bloody MWD on. Exceptions are the slow inty's like the taranis. Even then i can get mine past 5km/s no problem. Plus with overload it willl go faster Originally by: Omarvelous However unless your inty has missiles it will struggle to do much damage at high speeds. Interceptors are for tackling. With the exception of the ranis, most inty's do pitiful damage. Who gives a crud if you manage to hit a wrecking shot of 5 damage. (with the exception of th ranis, but thats a whole different play style) Originally by: Omarvelous The OP wants to do damage in his inty - and go slow enough to have his weapons track - yet use his small sig radius to help him stay alive. Its like this: If you want to hit something out of webrange, you damage is goign to be **ty (small rails, beams, arty, missiles). If you want to switch to close range weapons for more dps (pulse, blasters, ac's, rockets) more often than not, you will be in webrage, which means your AB will screw you over even more. Originally by:** Omarvelous Avoiding small weapons fire the interceptor can manage that in a lot of situations. A MWD cepter will avoid more small arms fire than an AB ceptor ever will I base my following comments on the Caldari Navy Hookbill - it does not act anything like an interceptor, it's simply to make a point. I once had a duel of my CNH versus a corp mates Dominix. The goal was not to see if the CNH could win such a fight, it was obvious from the start that they only way that was going to happen was if the dominix pilot suddenly died. Instead, I wanted to see just how well the CNH could tackle, given how bad it is at most other roles. The fit I used was a simple tackle fit - small blasters and rockets to keep the fitting requiremetns low, a decent warp scrambler and an afterburner. The rest of the slots were being used to take advantage of the +10% shield HP per level the frigate enjoys. The battle went poorly for the CNH from the beginning. From the minute the domi got a lock I was neuted to a point that I was no longer "tackling" but rather "buzzing around in an annoying fashion"> In spite of the domi pilot using Dual 250mm guns with trackign computers, the fact that I was webbed had very little impact on my ability to stay alive - I simply stuck right next to him and orbited as close as the ship would allow. The CNH had an unusually large signature radius thanks to the sheild extenders and resistance rigs, but in spite of the fact I was webbed AND moving under normal engine power his guns connected only a handful of times. Like any reasonable dominix pilot, he unleased a wave of light drones on me that actually wore me down (surprisingly slowly at that, it took more than minute for them to breach my shield). The point is, the Hookbill did evrythign wrong from a standard tackling point of view. It was a slow ship to start with and all it had for speed mods was an afterburner (a 5 million isk Deadspace AB, but an AB nevertheless) It operated naturally well inside web range. Everything about the ship screamed stupidist idea ever but it managed to stay alive under the worst conditions for a friagate for several minutes against a ship well suited to handle the threat I posed. The small sig size of a frigate and Interceptor is nothing to be laughed at. The fact that you can crawl right next to the target and keep a fantastically high transversal at only 250 M/S (or in my case a whopping 78m/s) means that your ability to tackle is primarily determined by cap supplies rather than your ability to stay alive. There are caveats to this whole bit however. A smarbomb can ruin such a plan quicker than anything else, small drones still hit with ease and missiles will still hit. But the idea is not a broken one, just different.
Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:07:00 - [28] Well jsut to bring you all a little humor. Found a thorax ratting and jumped in but he warped away sadly. Then he came back, we duked it out he got a lil into armor, but he was into structure. Sadly im afraid my one warp dist wasnt enough and he got away again. Heres hte fun part though, a quick scan showed me his wreckage, im thinking he ran straight into a turret with structure showing.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Nuclear Warrior If your inty is traveling under 8000m/s its useless. It will be outrun by most nano-cruisers, and light-heavy missiles and drones will tear the living **** out of it and its not fast enough to bridge huge distances before the enemy can react. The fastest I've ever got my stiletto to go is round 8.3 km/sec (I can't afford to put rigs on an interceptor and definitely can't afford expensive implants). TBH I didn't notice any difference going that fast then going 6 km/sec which is how I normally fit it. I've found once your going above about 5.5 km/sec there is very little you need to worry about. (except heavy neuts and webs ofc) I know I was definately out running an Ishtar's drones (pretty sure they were lights, they have have been mediums) I'd shoot the drones if I was in a slower ceptor anyway I imagine you'd be able to pop them well before they got to far into my shields (shield extended stilletto ftw ). In my mind there's fast and then there's stupidly fast (saw a sleipnir doing about 7 km/sec the other day god knows how expensive he's fittings plus implants were, some people have too much isk imo)...
Kano Sekor Amarr modro CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.05.20 18:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:19:08 Originally by: Dheorl Also not true. You try tracking a guy going 250m/s using cruiser sized guns when he has the sig of a mosquito. And then his 20 friends show up and pop you because you don't have any hope of escaping warp disruptor range to run at 250m/s. I suppose in situations such as that then yes, MWD would be best, but I use it for solo pirating and fly it kinda like a faster AF. AF as in Absolute Failure? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.20 18:49:00 - [31] Originally by: Kano Sekor Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:19:08 Originally by: Dheorl Also not true. You try tracking a guy going 250m/s using cruiser sized guns when he has the sig of a mosquito. And then his 20 friends show up and pop you because you don't have any hope of escaping warp disruptor range to run at 250m/s. I suppose in situations such as that then yes, MWD would be best, but I use it for solo pirating and fly it kinda like a faster AF. AF as in Absolute Failure? Yes, that AF. One of the main reasons why AF's are such failiers though is due to high mass and low speed... something a ceptor obviously doesn't have problems with.
Menellaix Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 18:55:00 - [32] My god, every post in this thread is horrible. V = Transversal velocity T = Gun Tracking Speed in rad/s D = Distance from target V = T * D When your guns are tracking at T, you hit 50% of the time. When your guns are tracking at T/2, you hit 90% of the time. When your guns are tracking at T*2, you hit 10% of the time. If you still dont get it, then I have a game that suits you a bit better.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 19:22:00 - [33] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 19:22:58 Originally by: Menellaix My god, every post in this thread is horrible. To top it all off there's this guy called Menellaix that doesn't even take into account the sig radius v signature resolution modifier into his tracking. Nor does he have any idea what angular velocity, not transversal velocity, does to the calculations. Hell you didn't even take Pi, sin, or cosine into account on your caculations. Never mind the hidden modifier that only the devs know about. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 19:39:00 - [34] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 19:44:11 Ok here's the best I can do about how tracking is calculated. It requires a lot of algebra and trigonometry, but it makes sense if you know what you're talking about. Look if a player is going 250m/s in a direct 90 degrees, across another ship then his transversal velocity is 250m/s. However if the ship is going 30 degrees off that and is headed toward or away from the ship then you multiply the speed by the cosine of 30 to find the transversal velocity. The transversal velocity is the orbit velocity, or how fast you're going directly across the ship without the speed you're going toward or away from the ship. This is what matters. After that you take the inverse cosine of the transversal velocity over the distance from the target. Cos-1(Transversal speed/distance from target) to find the angular velocity. That's how much your ship changes angles from their ship per second. Then using a hidden modifier that's only clear the devs the angular velocity is compared to the weapon's tracking. The only thing that is known about the modifier is that it's somehow affected by sig resolution v sig radius. All this assumes one of the guys is holding still but adding there's no need to get into more detail. Somehow they come up with the final numbers, but the exact details in the final leg of the equation is unknown. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.05.20 19:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Inoue Zael Originally by: Omarvelous However small turrets, light missiles, rockets, and drones will make short work of you. Not when you have your bloody MWD on. Exceptions are the slow inty's like the taranis. Even then i can get mine past 5km/s no problem. Plus with overload it willl go faster Originally by: Omarvelous However unless your inty has missiles it will struggle to do much damage at high speeds. Interceptors are for tackling. With the exception of the ranis, most inty's do pitiful damage. Who gives a crud if you manage to hit a wrecking shot of 5 damage. (with the exception of th ranis, but thats a whole different play style) Originally by: Omarvelous The OP wants to do damage in his inty - and go slow enough to have his weapons track - yet use his small sig radius to help him stay alive. Its like this: If you want to hit something out of webrange, you damage is goign to be **ty (small rails, beams, arty, missiles). If you want to switch to close range weapons for more dps (pulse, blasters, ac's, rockets) more often than not, you will be in webrage, which means your AB will screw you over even more. Originally by:** Omarvelous Avoiding small weapons fire the interceptor can manage that in a lot of situations. A MWD cepter will avoid more small arms fire than an AB ceptor ever will You missed the point of my post - I wasn't saying one is better than the other, or that an afterburner is more survivable than a mwd. I was merely saying that you can't say that something is ALWAYS better than something else - and give 1 specific example to prove it. There will be countless situations, and some of those situations can negate any particular setup. I know a MWD keeps you safer in most pvp situations - hence its a standard fit for interceptors. There are some situations where you want to do damage with your interceptor (interceptor gangs, frigate gangs, where every little bit of dps counts). Sure if you have a standard gang with a dedicated gank and tank ship - you can just use the inty for tackling. There are people who may want to do something else with a small agile ship. I know you have to get into web range to use high damage weapons - however there are advantages to running an afterburner vs a MWD in webrange. The AB can be perma run, with guns and tackle gear running, and keeping your sig radius small. I've flown assault ships with a MWD and an AB - and I've survived web range better with an afterburner in a lot of situations. Not every situation mind you - but there are times where a tiny sig inside webrange can make a huge difference in your ship's survival. Don' be close minded - try it out for yourself. All that said - I still prefer a MWD on an inty than an AB in most situations, because I need speed in my gang over anything else. If someone else has speed, then I may try an afterburner and use a unique AB inty setup for specific tasks/targets. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Menellaix Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 20:21:00 - [36] Originally by: DubanFP I am certified in spaceship internet game, and I can do maths. How fast is too fast? Considering that sig radius hit probabilities and tracking hit probabilities are independent variables, you are an idiot. Also, since transversal divided by distance is directly proportional to angular velocity (by what proportion...hmm, I wonder...), you have successfully crafted the least useful post on this subforum. Congratulations. I hope Hello Kitty Online has a tutorial, just for you. Seriously, if you stopped this horribad conjecture and actually tried playing this game, you might realize just how much of an idiot you are.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 20:32:00 - [37] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 20:32:46 Originally by: Menellaix Originally by: DubanFP I am certified in spaceship internet game, and I can do maths. Considering that sig radius hit probabilities and tracking hit probabilities are independent variables, you are an idiot. First off i'm good at math, so I actually enjoy doing this stuff in addittion to getting an edge over other players with it. Am I a nerd? Probebly. Is it fun? Definately. Second it's been proven signature radius is only a modifier for turret tracking and not a seperate thing entirely. I can prove it right now. Go to this Eve Tracking tool, on CCP's hope website no less so it is 100% accurate. Begin the tracking guide and go to the last page, where it asks you to put in turrets and crap. Put the turret's signature resolution as some huge number like 5000. Then put the target's transversal velocity at 0. Notice that you have 100% accuracy at 0 transversal until you hit falloff range reguardless of sig radius V scan resolution. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Menellaix Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 20:47:00 - [38] Originally by: DubanFP Put the turret's signature resolution as some huge number like 5000. Then put the target's transversal velocity at 0. Notice that you have 100% accuracy at 0 transversal until you hit falloff range reguardless of sig radius V scan resolution. Paraphrased: "If you shoot at a barn, you hit it unless you are out of the effective range of your gun." Thanks for that. Did you have a nerd party to figure that out, or did you think all that up by yourself? Dude, stop embarrassing yourself.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 20:51:00 - [39] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 20:55:51 Originally by: Menellaix Originally by: DubanFP Put the turret's signature resolution as some huge number like 5000. Then put the target's transversal velocity at 0. Notice that you have 100% accuracy at 0 transversal until you hit falloff range reguardless of sig radius V scan resolution. Paraphrased: "If you shoot at a barn, you hit it unless you are out of the effective range of your gun." Thanks for that. Did you have a nerd party to figure that out, or did you think all that up by yourself? Dude, stop embarrassing yourself. If you had actually looked then you would see that even the most inaccurate weapons, scan resolution of 5000, can hit the smallest targets, signature of 10, if the shooter and the target aren't moving. Don't believe me then try it out. Anyways shouldn't you be hiding under a bridge somewhere? P.S. Your numbers would be horribly inaccurate. Radians are a measure of angle like degrees. You would never get a meaningful answer from your equation, at all. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.20 21:03:00 - [40] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 15:07:25 Originally by: Inoue Zael inty's should always be fit with microwarpdrives IMHO. Unless he's using it for PVE in which case inty's shouldn't be used at all. Anyways you shouldn't expect to be getting a lot of hits or doing a lot of damage in an inty. The point is to capture your target and then let your friends do the damage while using the MWD to avoid it. With missions, I agree. With 0.0 exploration sites, I've used a Stiletto with AB II to tank very effectively in a lot of sites (as long as there's no webber tower or energy neut tower in the site) for a corpmate whose Raven tank just wasn't enough. High rate of speed, shield hardeners, small signature radius, and the rest I'll let anyone else figure out. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Menellaix Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 21:19:00 - [41] Originally by: DubanFP If you had actually looked then you would see that even the most inaccurate weapons, scan resolution of 5000, can hit the smallest targets, signature of 10, if the shooter and the target aren't moving relative to each other. I didn't need to look. I've already seen the podmails generated by a dreadnought. It doesn't matter. When you are in a fight, your target's signature radius and your guns signature resolution are constant. You can't do much of anything to change them. Concentrating on variables you can't change accomplishes nothing. Originally by: DubanFP Anyways shouldn't you be hiding under a bridge somewhere? Trolls can smell stupid from miles away. I has maths to prove it. Originally by: DubanFP Your numbers would be horribly inaccurate. Of course my numbers are inaccurate, because the outcome of shooting at something has far more variables that just tracking speed. However, all other things being equal, me equations are reasonably close approximations that can be memorized/calculated on the fly, in a fight. If you are mutated crotch-spawn with 9 arms that can pilot a ship and use a calculator at the same time, feel free to debate the finer points of accuracy calculation.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 21:26:00 - [42] Edited by: DubanFP on 20/05/2008 21:26:25 Originally by: Menellaix Originally by: DubanFP Your numbers would be horribly inaccurate. Of course my numbers are inaccurate, because the outcome of shooting at something has far more variables that just tracking speed. However, all other things being equal, me equations are reasonably close approximations that can be memorized/calculated on the fly, in a fight. You don't seem to get it. It's not that your numbers wouldn't be accurate. They wouldn't even be meaningful. Radians is a measure of angle like degrees. You have to put your fraction, transversal over distance, through tan-1 before your fraction becomes an angle that actually has a use to compare. Otherwise your numbers won't even compare. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Havok Dryke Golden Gavel Enterprises The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.05.20 21:34:00 - [43] How fast is too fast? OVER 9000! ....m/sec. --- Kaboom: The process by which large objects are broken down into many small objects. Originally by: Alz Shado Chribba doesn't mine Veldspar -- the ore offers itself to him in tribute.
Menellaix Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 21:46:00 - [44] My god, why I am even proving myself, to you, I don't know. 1) Go to the tracking guide. Set sig radius = sig resolution. Change optimal to some idiotic number, like 100000, so that falloff doesn't confuse the matter. Now, set tracking to 0.01rad/s, and transversal to 100m/s. 2) According to my equation, 50% hit is achieved at 10km. Holy ****, I was right. My equation also shows that 10% hit is achieved at 5km. Oh n0es, I was off by 3%. 3) Now, lets magically assume that we can control our sig radius. Set sig res to 125, and sig radius to 25. Five times harder to hit, so 50% hit rate should be at about 50km. Therefore, you are an idiot.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.20 22:01:00 - [45] Originally by: Menellaix My god, why I am even proving myself, to you, I don't know. 1) Go to the tracking guide. Set sig radius = sig resolution. Change optimal to some idiotic number, like 100000, so that falloff doesn't confuse the matter. Now, set tracking to 0.01rad/s, and transversal to 100m/s. 2) According to my equation, 50% hit is achieved at 10km. Holy **, I was right. My equation also shows that 10% hit is achieved at 5km. Oh n0es, I was off by 3%. 3) Now, lets magically assume that we can control our sig radius. Set sig res to 125, and sig radius to 25. Five times harder to hit, so 50% hit rate should be at about 50km. Therefore, you are an idiot. Actually, you DO have control over your sig radius. Shield extenders, shield rigs, MWD, target painters - all of them have an impact on a ship's sig radius. And, seriously, do you absolutely need to be so spiteful in your posts? If you don't agree and think you're right getting **y on the internet of all places probably isn't going to change his mind. Remember - it's only a game
Menellaix Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 22:15:00 - [46] Originally by: Derek Sigres Actually, you DO have control over your sig radius. Shield extenders, shield rigs, MWD, target painters - all of them have an impact on a ship's sig radius. And, seriously, do you absolutely need to be so spiteful in your posts? If you don't agree and think you're right getting ***y on the internet of all places probably isn't going to change his mind. Remember - it's only a game Ahah, a coherent counterargument. Yes, you do have some, limited control over sig radius. And understanding the basic mechanics of sig radius related things is very useful in a fight. However, the primary topic of this thread was supposedly* {transversal,angular} velocity and its effect on tracking. In combat situations where tracking is the dominant variable (ie, any time you are in the small ship engaging a larger ship) you should be primarily concerned with balancing the equations I provided above. Successfully doing so guarantees that you win the fight. Failing to do so guarantees that you lose. And yeah, I'm a poorly endowed troll, and to me its all a game, forum warfare included. However, this troll is also trying to make you less bad at this game, to no benefit to said troll. Therefore troll seeks rewards through other avenues, endowing one's epeen with the power of carebear stare.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.20 22:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Menellaix Originally by: Derek Sigres Actually, you DO have control over your sig radius. Shield extenders, shield rigs, MWD, target painters - all of them have an impact on a ship's sig radius. And, seriously, do you absolutely need to be so spiteful in your posts? If you don't agree and think you're right getting ***y on the internet of all places probably isn't going to change his mind. Remember - it's only a game Ahah, a coherent counterargument. Yes, you do have some, limited control over sig radius. And understanding the basic mechanics of sig radius related things is very useful in a fight. However, the primary topic of this thread was supposedly* {transversal,angular} velocity and its effect on tracking. In combat situations where tracking is the dominant variable (ie, any time you are in the small ship engaging a larger ship) you should be primarily concerned with balancing the equations I provided above. Successfully doing so guarantees that you win the fight. Failing to do so guarantees that you lose. And yeah, I'm a poorly endowed troll, and to me its all a game, forum warfare included. However, this troll is also trying to make you less bad at this game, to no benefit to said troll. Therefore troll seeks rewards through other avenues, endowing one's epeen with the power of carebear stare. At the end of the day, doing anything to make your ship are harder target to hit can make a difference. I tend to be of the school of thought that in interceptor SHOULD be flying at stupid speeds and thus need the MWD - their goal should be little more than to insure a ship stays put even if it doesn't like the idea. But SOME ships, notably the assault ship seem to be designed to be used with an AB. Most of those ships have short ranges anyway (frigate sized guns and all) thus even in the best circumstances they aren't going to be much outside web range in the first place without gimping their DPS. The ships are usually prett tight on fitting as well, and an AB is nearly free in comparison to the requirements of a MWD. No matter what you do an assault ship is going to be fairly slow (with the exception of the Wolf. . . ) there is simply no getting around that issue. By defying normal PVP conventions and fitting a frigate to fight well inside suicide range you actually overcome a lot of issues. Angular velocity can be VERY high even when webbed if you get close enough. The small size of the ship without an MWD blasting compounds targeting problems further. In short, I advocate employing assault ships in situations where it seems to simply be stupid - at point blank range gainst BC sized targets or higher, preferably in packs using AB's in place of MWD.
MR Wa1sh	Posted - 2008.05.20 22:28:00 - [48] Edited by: MR Wa1sh on 20/05/2008 22:29:08 to fast in never enough - just orbit at like 3ooo m so you end up at like 13 and your sweet :P btw 2k is nothing 8 - 9 - 10k is kind of standard for inty
Menellaix Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 22:33:00 - [49] Originally by: Derek Sigres I'm a noob in an assault frig, see me die. I saw a Thorax once. I hear they are pretty cheap too. Here's another equation for you. Speed = Effectiveness. If the survivability of your ship relies upon going slow, you can be pretty sure that you are wrong.
Pax Empyrean	Posted - 2008.05.21 00:24:00 - [50] Menellaix, stop being an ass. Otherwise, good thread.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.21 02:24:00 - [51] Originally by: Menellaix Originally by: Derek Sigres I'm a noob in an assault frig, see me die. I saw a Thorax once. I hear they are pretty cheap too. Here's another equation for you. Speed = Effectiveness. If the survivability of your ship relies upon going slow, you can be pretty sure that you are wrong. Actually, the survivability of the ship relies on being in a GANG fighting at POINT BLANK relying on the SMALL SIZE combined with a HIGH TRANSVERSAL thanks to your TIGHT ORBIT along with being in a SMALL GANG of SIMILAR ships. I capatilized the parts of my previous statements you seem to have missed. If a person's question is "what ship does X job best" the answer will almost never be "assault frig y" - I'm willing to grant that. I'm simply pointing out that the AFrig is not entirely without use or capacity for effective combat - just not in the same fashion it's larger brethren are. Speed, in spite of all it's advocates does not equal effectiveness. Pure speed in and of itself is not a means to the desired end of popping another ship - indeed speed generally HARMS your ability to meet this end. Instead, speed lends a level of survivability no other defensive mechanism or strategy can match. If speed were truly effective I would ask you just how many nano HACS can actually be effective by themselves? The Ishtsr? The Sac? Most of these nano ships rely on fighting targets that are vastly inferior in terms of combat capabilities because once they slow down enough to do damage they themselves can be quickly melted by their foes. People in Eve need to look beyond the min max mentality and realize there are other means to your desired end that don't require polycarbs and speed mods. The Afrig is considered subpar because it's unusually slow - when it's only true limit is the fact that a cruiser can deliver equal pain at generally longer ranges for less isk on the line. You can call me a noob - it's an internet forum and I assure you I'm long past being offended by such pointless posturing. Of you could perhaps give the idea a try sometime. You might even have fun doing it.
Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.21 03:11:00 - [52] Well this post wasn't to hear about what ship is best at anything. I was just noticing the fast i went the more i missed, and was concerned over that fact and wondered(based on others expierience)on how thir high speeds affected thier chance of landing hits. If a 2k AB has problems, then a MWD would probably only add to degenerative effect. The rats i have no prob hitting if i slow down for the smaller targets. But the thorax fight had me missing more than the rats. But atleast i was able to maintain my orbit distance. Since my math is bad at times. The abily to maintain and orbit distance shoudl keep the trans Dist to a minimum correct? IF SO, then it should help in landing more hits on the target. Yes?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.21 03:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Feraldeth Well this post wasn't to hear about what ship is best at anything. I was just noticing the fast i went the more i missed, and was concerned over that fact and wondered(based on others expierience)on how thir high speeds affected thier chance of landing hits. If a 2k AB has problems, then a MWD would probably only add to degenerative effect. The rats i have no prob hitting if i slow down for the smaller targets. But the thorax fight had me missing more than the rats. But atleast i was able to maintain my orbit distance. Since my math is bad at times. The abily to maintain and orbit distance shoudl keep the trans Dist to a minimum correct? IF SO, then it should help in landing more hits on the target. Yes? The hits are based in a large part on your relative angular velocity to the target. If you exceed the max rad/s your turrets can track your odds of hitting the target plummet rapidly towards 0. This is the reason most people don't give the average interceptor credit in terms of it's solo capability - when traveling at speed most of them simply can't hit anything smaller than a titan, assuming they are in range at all. Since your angualr velocity is based both on your outright speed and the angle of approach on the target, you will find you can land hits at ludicrous speed if you approach the target on a beeline. Such a tactic has a downside however - if using a MWD your large signature radius makes you an easy target if you make a direct approach, and as such this tactic is only used in PVP on occasions where you can pass into a targts range, finish your attack run and be well on your way out before they can get a lock.
Feraldeth	Posted - 2008.05.21 03:24:00 - [54] As, I see, I solo so the prefered distance for possible escape avenues is in my favor. So my goal is obtain a good orbit speed. A MWD would cuase me to have to use a smaller orbit distance. Not too mention a worse turnign radius. I do decent with the AB, only pushing off around 1km from original orbit. Time will tell if i enjoy this biuld or not. And time is on my side.

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