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freshspree
Dissonance Corp
BLACK-MARK
15
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Posted - 2011.09.13 05:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Goodluck getting your 'boost' to dreads without getting a substantial increase in price.
To the original poster, you are a TARD! Post your eft details here and lets see your fail dread fit. I made a mistake and was thinking of a blaster fit but a Moros dealing 3.2k dps with rails in siege is not optimal. Go figure... |
quikfingrs
the wreking crew
0
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Posted - 2011.09.14 12:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
with some peopel talkign about T2 dreds, insted of making SC nerfed why not make the other caps more capable?
like a T2 dred nerf the T1 version more suited for pos outpost bashing as it was intentialy made for and make a T2 version that wil b usles in that way but more of a SC killing machine made the same way as advanced capital ships
just throwing it out there |
quikfingrs
the wreking crew
1
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Posted - 2011.09.23 11:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
infact thinking about what i have said
t1 dred
keep the 10min cycle time for siege but have it that it gets a hefty tracking nerf so usles for running plexis
it gains a extra top slot for one more gun with a big damage increse when in siege
when in siege it gains a slight increese in ehp or just bettr resists but when its not in siege it has 0 % resists this making it usless unles in siege but can be remote repped in siege
then they wont b fielded to farm plexis or fleet battles but only for structure bashing
( basicaly when in siege it can smash the hell out of stationary object faster than b4 but is succomed to onyl beign feilded when the system is deemed safe to)
t2 dred
made same way as a jump freightr ussing advanced t2 parts maybe a hull aswel not sure how viabel that is due to prices of the jump freightr beign so high but then if mor eppl are maing advanced components then the price swould drop considerabley due to somethign other than JF beign made from them
has say 2-3 turrets 1 utility
5min sige cycle cant be RR can be jammed but gains a massive dmg bonus but only viable against same or bigger shipps
when in siege gains a ehp buff, traking bonus, also a drones dmg bonus
the only bit that i cant work out is the projecting the dmg accordingly
how could you make it so that the t1 version would hit anythign but stationary trgets good but wont or deal little dmg on anythign else
and then same for the t2 version cant hit structures or anythign below its class when it comes to shipps
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brutorans
V I R I I
0
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Posted - 2011.09.25 14:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
I get the feeling non of you have been in a cap fight that was either VS a POS or less than 50 caps total.
The proposed changes here are non viable.
Dreads work perfectly for their intended function: shooting structures (towers, TCU's and SBU's)
Shooting other caps is an option, but for that your far better off going with smaller, cheaper fleets of fast moving ships that can react.
Dont forget dreads are cheap! really cheap. For the cost of one pimped Nyx you can kit out a whole squad of dreads. And for most of us who fly dreads and other caps and have the stones to loose them, the cost of replacing them is really not much at all.
The Naglfar needs a boost, but then that has always been the ugly duckling of dreads. Super carriers need a nerf, everyone knows that and finally siege timers should be halved so they are in-line with the triage mods.
Anything else simply overpowers a ship which does not cost enough to warrant it. Dreads may be super bad ass damage dealers, but they are very cheap super bad ass damage dealers, everyone seems to forget this. |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2011.09.25 14:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
umm since when is 1.1 billion for a ship cheap? maybe not for alliance who got trillions but for the average player who rats/annoms/missions its quite an expensive toy... and i say toy right now because thats all they are... untill they get a boost |
Elindreal
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2011.09.25 19:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
brutorans wrote:Anything else simply overpowers a ship which does not cost enough to warrant it. Dreads may be super bad ass damage dealers, but they are very cheap super bad ass damage dealers, everyone seems to forget this.
perhaps... but also keep in mind that carriers are almost half the price of a dread and are far more versatile. perhaps they don't have the same raw dps, but their dps can be applied to things other than stationary objects.
i think one of the many concerns is that these capitals (carriers and dreads) are within the price range of carebears, and thus they'd like to be able to have a use for them.
carebears who have the stones to use and lose a carrier in a plex or hell even an L5 mission have the option. the dread however has no carebear use, its niche is reserved for alliance ops or wormholes.
whatever boost is received, it would be nice if they had a dual niche to fit into a small gang as well. hell, the ability to drop on a solo carrier and give it a bit of a run for its money would also be sort of interesting.
*shrug* what do I know, I don't fly these things. |
beor oranes
The Capitalist Protectorate
Mad Scientists
8
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Posted - 2011.09.25 20:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
Dreads don't need massive changes and I don't think (yet anyway, we should fix the ones we have first) we need any new capitals for the moment, as much as I would like to see a Tier 2 Dread. The current ones just need a bit of a tweak.
Like has been proposed 5 min siege instead of 10 mins, an increase in EHP (maybe from the current to around 4/5 mil EHP), jump range increase to that of a carrier, tone down some of the drawbacks from the siege mode slightly and then up the DPS slightly.
I would think that the above wouldn't overpower them. It would give them a role again, they would be the most cost effective way to shoot structures and gank other capitals but in bigger groups the ability to get RR and larger EHP would still favour Super Carriers (as it should be for the increased cost) but Dreads wouldn't be far behind.
Being able to receive RR would be way too overpowered, the last thing you really want to see is a group of EWAR immune capitals being RR'd while applying their full DPS...oh wait that's what is happening atm. |
quikfingrs
the wreking crew
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 07:38:00 -
[38] - Quote
brutorans wrote:I get the feeling non of you have been in a cap fight that was either VS a POS or less than 50 caps total.
The proposed changes here are non viable.
Dreads work perfectly for their intended function: shooting structures (towers, TCU's and SBU's)
Shooting other caps is an option, but for that your far better off going with smaller, cheaper fleets of fast moving ships that can react.
Dont forget dreads are cheap! really cheap. For the cost of one pimped Nyx you can kit out a whole squad of dreads. And for most of us who fly dreads and other caps and have the stones to loose them, the cost of replacing them is really not much at all.
The Naglfar needs a boost, but then that has always been the ugly duckling of dreads. Super carriers need a nerf, everyone knows that and finally siege timers should be halved so they are in-line with the triage mods.
Anything else simply overpowers a ship which does not cost enough to warrant it. Dreads may be super bad ass damage dealers, but they are very cheap super bad ass damage dealers, everyone seems to forget this.
to be honest the only reason i am saying this is at this presatn time ppl who can offord to buy SC are basicaly runnign the show if they want to go and mess up a pos in low sec some where there free to do it so,
big alliance who can filed 20+dreds yeh u dont need a buff, BUT for corps who are thin on the ground and dont feel like being the turkey in a turkey shoot if they thought they had half the chance of winnign then they might even go for the kill giving more pvp an also more stratogy thinking instea do fjust throwing SC everywhere for the fun of it.
and with price JF are only expensive due to the minerals it needs and beign the only ship in eve to use advanced cap parts, if more are being made then JF price would drop makign T2 dreds prices drop and also the T1 dred get cheeper also.
p.s. i am no low sec corp and have never been attaked by roaming SC but have been in battles else where with caps so understand them |
lord xavier
V I R I I
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 08:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:umm since when is 1.1 billion for a ship cheap? maybe not for alliance who got trillions but for the average player who rats/annoms/missions its quite an expensive toy... and i say toy right now because thats all they are... untill they get a boost
Correction, 1.6b for a dread generally. Fit included depending on the dread you buy but, I suppose that is besides the point. 1.1b is cheap since people learned how to properly use the isk making functions of eve. Then the incursions came out and 1.1b just became a norm I suppose. Everyone and their mother who has Dreadnaught 1 owns a dread pretty much. More or less a fully fit carrier can run you 900m as well. Though, this is getting off topic. 1.1b and 1T is quite a difference. Most users on eve have generally 5-9b in assests. Whether they realize or acknowledge it at all. That is pretty general. Most users also do not realize they have an easy 2b in assests they never use. Just letting it rot away. For 1 fully fitted supercarrier you can get 12-13 fully fitted dreadnaughts or 16-20 fully fitted carriers.
Dreads do need a boost, I will agree but they do do their job quite. They just need to not be able to die to the 10 BS that come ontop of it in such a short time. |
brutorans
V I R I I
2
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Posted - 2011.09.26 08:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
To address a few points raised:
1.1 bill is cheap for the hull. very cheap in fact. for the fitted ship with some faction ammo and a navy enam like most rev pilots like, 2bill is cheap.
How is it cheap? They have been the backbone tools of 0.0 alliances since Sov warfare began. There are enough BPO's and BPC's out there that manufacturing costs are dictated almost entirely by mineral price.
Also 2 bill in this game is simply not that much money. If people in empire and lowsec find this hard to fathom that a player can have more than this without scamming/trading or incessant mission whoring, then tough. You just don't appreciate how much ISK is sprayed in to the game.
Having built my own JF, owning a dread and two carriers with no financial input of any alliance entity, i can confirm that normal people can get them to. Also: no alliance fronts the initial cost of the dread for a pilot. You rock up with yours and the alliance pays insurance, covers the difference between the payout and the new ship. capital investment remains the burden of the pilot.
Carriers are half the price
Yup, and they are also useless for direct combat. they die as soon as you blink at them. Your paying money for a massive logistics ship crossed with an indy.
Fighters might look cool, but they are expensive and ineffective. Carriers might look like good tanks, but they are vulnerable to almost everything and hence regularly die in fires (see eve-kill.net for more fail carriers). And finally: there are thousands of them.
Carriers are logistics ships, their impact is to repair towers after dreads have been past and to move fitted ships to a combat area. they have minimal defence and negligible offence for this reason. The cost of a carrier has no impact on the cost of a dread, and for the record, the cost of a fully fitted carrier with drone bay is up to about 1.4 bill, the same as the hull cost of a dread. so they are not to far apart in the bigger order of things.
Carebear use (get out)
Carriers should not be used for bearing. Yea, i have done it, but not got caught. Most people are not so lucky. that said however, please continue this trend as the easy killmails and faction BS that accompany them are really nice to gank on a slow weekend.
Dreads clearly have no dedicated carebear use as they are meant to hit a giant space tower that DOES NOT MOVE. Tracking ships is not what they were designed for. so don't complain that not everything can be used for missions, this is not how the universe was made.
Commence bickering |
lord xavier
V I R I I
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 08:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Quote:big alliance who can filed 20+dreds yeh u dont need a buff, BUT for corps who are thin on the ground and dont feel like being the turkey in a turkey shoot if they thought they had half the chance of winnign then they might even go for the kill giving more pvp an also more stratogy thinking instea do fjust throwing SC everywhere for the fun of it. Have you ever seen what happens when a couple super carriers land ontop of a group dreadnaughts in siege? Lets say the small fish doesnt last long.
Quote:and with price JF are only expensive due to the minerals it needs and beign the only ship in eve to use advanced cap parts, if more are being made then JF price would drop makign T2 dreds prices drop and also the T1 dred get cheeper also. Actually, the prices woul go up. Less JFs are being made for the demand of JFs. T2 Dreads are being made, so therefore EVERYONE is making them so the lack of minerals on the market due to the demand in them ill make the prices go up for a short while. Prices would level out once the demand became steady.
FFS CCP let me quote more.
Brutorans is right. 1.1b is cheap to be honest. I have a wide variety of ships ranging from T2 fitted rifters to Capital ships and a Jump Freighter. Every bit I have earned on my own with absolutely no funding what-so-ever from a single alliance I have been in to this day. I have personally never used my carrier for some logistical firey ball of death in the battlefield. I would always field a dreadnaught of some kind.
The amount of isk dumped hourly into the game is unreal. You have a delicate program that dumps isk directly into your wallet. Run and site and get 50m in less then an hour. Run a good incursion with a good group of people (random I might add) and you are looking at 150-220m an hour. Trade, not scam, trade and you are looking at 10m a day to 500m a day. Depending on how addiment you are on that task. Isk is generated in so many ways, it isnt even funny. I have a large assortement of items dumped purely into a collection of mine that honestly. Don't even phase my wallet. I still PVP, I still make isk. Sad part is, I am the average user. Buy a dread to bash a pos? Aight, do we have the proper coverage/numbers to pull this without losing them? People lose these "toys" when they get careless.
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quikfingrs
the wreking crew
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 08:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
[quote=lord xavier]Quote:big alliance who can filed 20+dreds yeh u dont need a buff, BUT for corps who are thin on the ground and dont feel like being the turkey in a turkey shoot if they thought they had half the chance of winnign then they might even go for the kill giving more pvp an also more stratogy thinking instea do fjust throwing SC everywhere for the fun of it. Have you ever seen what happens when a couple super carriers land ontop of a group dreadnaughts in siege? Lets say the small fish doesnt last long.
yes i have hence when i said 20+ it was aimd at the minimum of filded caps comapred to a corp can filed, also again when u said about the SC droppign on dreds in sige hence why i mentiond about t2 dreds in the first place make them more tankable for that same reason,
also pricing u know what u are smack on the money there ive had my coffe and woken up to the realisation that once apon a time NC ownd almost all tech moons, legion fuled by shadow cap builders ownd almost all caps, than DRF took over NC space claimd all tech moons in that area so the same porblem exists one owner of tech = high prices stil,
more blobby-ness due to mass SC and the idea of T2 dreds means the russians and there friends wil then own mass majoroty of the t2 caps this given then mor epower to take on the whole of eve so i am retractign any ideas i had in the first place
until ccp magicaly pull out more tech moons in other regions to make it more viable ( but itl probably be like incarna years and years down the road )
also yes caps at the moment are cheep as chipps but as mentiond mineral prices vary and with incursion here its killign the mineral prices for low end due to why shoudl i mine 18hrs to make 10m when i can run a site for 5mins and make 10m only the high end mineral prices are ruffly the same as they were before incursion due to the market beign made from the null sec boys |
lord xavier
V I R I I
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 08:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
VIRII is a small corp and can deploy 20 dreadnaughts if so pleased. Thing is easy as long as a corp works towards it. Corps do not apply themselves into capital ships though. If they did they would close on this gap and start to make a stairwell of capital ships in use versus 1-5 dreads/carriers to the large alliances 100-200 easily fieldable dreads. All HS corporations have to do is apply themselves and start a naplist as well. This would easily counter a single alliance with ease. However, they dont. Hence the gap. |
quikfingrs
the wreking crew
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 09:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
yes very true but i think most hs corp alliances see the battle reports of 200+caps and think there is no way we could do that and dont commit,
but that would be a great thing to see if a lot of big allainces/corps from the HS side decided to bunch up and take on some major null sec alliances could make for some interesting battles and tides changing lol |
lord xavier
V I R I I
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 09:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
I think it would prove to be interesting if the HS corporations could roll out in 2k-3k dreads. Use proper bait methods and just pummel through the supercap population. It is what should have been done a long time ago. |
quikfingrs
the wreking crew
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 09:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
hear hear lets start a revolution lol
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Bo Bojangles
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
1
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Posted - 2011.09.26 22:35:00 -
[47] - Quote
It's a delicate balance isn't it? I really don't know why anyone would suggest another cap ship at this point when sc's vs. dreads are where they are.
I'll go against the grain on the siege module. I don't think matching with a triage module is a good argument for a 5-min siege. A 5-min timer is damn low risk when you compare it to what you're getting out of it while in triage, what's more is that I think it's more appropriate to triage since on triage fits you'll typically find a much weaker tank than a combat fit on carriers, the same isn't true for siege.
I think that attackers should have a higher risk, and that risk reflects well with a 10-min siege timer. Frankly even with a 10-min timer, there's only been one case I can remember where it put a dread to death from a pos it was attacking. A Phoenix that died on a tower I'd set up :chestbeat:, but that's it. True more often the risk will come from an enemy fleet, but again that should come with the territory. You want to put out the dreads and go on the offensive, you should have no problem putting your huevos out on the table for another 5min per cycle as well.
As far as the dread's dps, I haven't been flying them that long but they seem pretty close to the mark as compared with an SC and it's addl. cost. You have the huge additional disadvantage of having to sit there, but it's a heckuva lot cheaper. I do feel though, that it's tracking penalty is a bit much while in siege, and while you might not want to make it a plexmobile, as it is it's rather defenseless vs. battleships. I think I'd keep the in-siege damage near the same as it is now, but raise it quite a bit while out of siege. It just seems silly that the thing only does battleship level dps out of siege with terrible tracking .
And the tank, that's a rough one. When I think of increasing the thing's tank, I think of all the many, many times dreads just escaped our pos's by incapping that last point after their support had killed off all the dictors. That sliver of gameplay seems close to balanced as it had me thinking how I could have set up the pos just a little better, but if you increase dread's tank, well, I guess I wouldn't have to worry myself about it anymore. So, if you want to increase the tank of the dreads for other reasons, I think in the back of your head you have to consider pos/mods rebalance at some point if you haven't already. |
quikfingrs
the wreking crew
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 09:20:00 -
[48] - Quote
yeh when i mention about incresing the dred tank it was for whn in a cap fight not at killign poses and thats the bit i coudlnt fathom out as liek u said to do that thye ppl flying them if they decided to go pos shooting then there tank would b far superior to the pos defence
so if there was a balance with dreds made more SC killing efficiant and soem made more tankign and pos killing efficiant then a totaly new rebalance woudl have to be done, if they buffed pos defence then it woudl make ti harder to kill poses without a cap then a totaly new type of buff woudl be needed for sub caps
unless there was specific pos mods that deal higher dmg to caps but not to sub caps and vice verser
SC are most powerful tool in game at the mo, other caps are just old school sub caps are practicaly the same
tbh i dont think they need to nerf SC tbf they wanted to buff SC to make campaings better wich it did its a lot faster to take control of system naw with SC than what it used to be nerfeing them is kinda counter productive tbh i think a buff to all sub SC is needed and for more defences for pos's to deal with it
if a corp alliance cant b asked to fit a pos correctly then its there own fault if some one decideds to do a drive by on there pos in a SC |
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