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Sitthh
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Posted - 2008.05.24 14:19:00 -
[61]
Geez ppl are sensitive these days. No, monkey isn't racist and if you think it is then YOU are racist. Look in the dictionary...thats what a word means. I hate all this political correctness stuff. If you dont like what someone is saying/typing, ignore it. Now this is why my main is Caldari, we dont care about stupood feelings and such, not like them gallente who cry every time someone doesnt say what they think. Destroy the hippie girlente and crush the minitard plague. Long Live Caldari!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...oh yea Amarr are cool too.
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Kis Kecheri
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Posted - 2008.05.24 14:23:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 24/05/2008 14:23:16
 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 24/05/2008 09:45:00
Offending people in 'real life' is something I look forward to.
Hitting sensitive PC mouthbreathers with collateral damage is just icing on the cake.
Originally by: Promethian child
I think whitey should mind his own affairs  (edit this was said by my very black coworker reading the post im rather pale )
Originally by: Kransthow
sup *****
You would all have to work a damn sight harder to offend me; I am not the least bit phased by your unimaginative jibes and juvenile responses.
It is merely indicative of your utterly self-centered, over-privileged backgrounds that you are unable to engage with a discussion about racist terminology without resorting to insults.
Your lack of empathy and respect for others is tragic. This generation considers it iconoclastic to reassert racist terms that our grandparents' generation protested long and hard to defeat. That is very sad indeed.
Insult away. You only earn my pity.
Oh, shut up you self-righteous ****er.
Your attitude is more offensive then Americans who intentionally immigrate to the US then expect free money and priority on jobs/services since they happen share a similar skin tone to people who were actually slaves over one hundred and fifty years ago.
I experience more daily abuse and intolerance as a transvestite giving men sexual favors for money to pay for my drug habit then any person of colour has suffered.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.24 14:48:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 24/05/2008 14:53:36
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 24/05/2008 14:23:16
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 24/05/2008 09:45:00
Offending people in 'real life' is something I look forward to.
Hitting sensitive PC mouthbreathers with collateral damage is just icing on the cake.
Originally by: Promethian child
I think whitey should mind his own affairs (edit this was said by my very black coworker reading the post im rather pale )
Originally by: Kransthow
sup *****
You would all have to work a damn sight harder to offend me; I am not the least bit phased by your unimaginative jibes and juvenile responses.
It is merely indicative of your utterly self-centered, over-privileged backgrounds that you are unable to engage with a discussion about racist terminology without resorting to insults.
Your lack of empathy and respect for others is tragic. This generation considers it iconoclastic to reassert racist terms that our grandparents' generation protested long and hard to defeat. That is very sad indeed.
Insult away. You only earn my pity.
Oh, shut up you self-righteous ****er.
Your attitude is more offensive then Americans who intentionally immigrate to the US then expect free money and priority on jobs/services since they happen share a similar skin tone to people who were actually slaves over one hundred and fifty years ago.
I experience more daily abuse and intolerance as a transvestite giving men sexual favors for money to pay for my drug habit then any person of colour has suffered.
You're not funny and your childish ranting only further illustrates my point and betrays your own inherantly racist attitudes. Grow up!
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.24 14:59:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Sitthh
No, monkey isn't racist and if you think it is then YOU are racist. Look in the dictionary...thats what a word means.
Monkey is a racist term if you only use it in regard to black people.
It has a long history as an abusive term, along with "jungle bunny", "nig nog", "coon" and many similar terms.
Originally by: Sitthh
I hate all this political correctness stuff.
Perhaps that's because you don't understand what racism is.
Originally by: Sitthh
If you dont like what someone is saying/typing, ignore it.
I prefer to challenge ignorance, thanks.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Fredior Khan'Sebies
Mikramurka Solace
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Posted - 2008.05.24 15:46:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Fredior Khan''Sebies on 24/05/2008 15:48:05
My apologies James, this is not aimed at you but rather a couple of the other posters here who have defended using a term that others objected to, despite the objections.
Some says, "Stop, that hurts." You continue to do it, how is that defensible?
We have slaver hounds, we have fedos, cattle, hanging long-limbs, we have other Eve-specific animal names to assign to Minmatar. Or we can just use "animals."
Why do we have to utilize a term of an animal to which I can't recall one reference in the backstory, especially if it is something that is typically banished from real life public discussions on identity? I personally don't think that it's just that the Brutor are mostly African in appearance, but that the term in general is used as race-baiting in the language we are using to communicate here.
It's not "ban the term monkey." It's "ban the term monkey when it simply doesn't fit the backstory and is objected to and isn't being used to describe a primate with a tail in any event." If we happened to be discussing, for example, tamarins or marmosets or lemurs or spider monkeys, then it would be appropriate to use the term. But we aren't.
We can be more creative than that, can't we?
Edit: confused tapirs with tamarins
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Akiba Penrose
PAK
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:05:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Some says, "Stop, that hurts." You continue to do it, how is that defensible?
Noone here have said that,, It is Tommy that thinks the word monkey might be inappropriate due to racist connotations.
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Why do we have to utilize a term of an animal to which I can't recall one reference in the backstory, especially if it is something that is typically banished from real life public discussions on identity?
Because it fits how an Amarr would describe a Minmatar.
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Ban the term monkey when it simply doesn't fit the backstory and is objected to and isn't being used to describe a primate with a tail in any event.
Good luck with that.
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Darineah Charach
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:26:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Darineah Charach on 24/05/2008 16:26:58
Tommy, i think you're getting your racial terminology mixed up.
The term monkey was not derived from the colour of a persons skin. Other terms you've mentioned were but monkey derived from a belief that the persons it was referred to were sub human, closer to the apes than humanity. It was used to describe Asians in historic times as well as people of African descent. Also used in relation to Middle Eastern people.
In the context of the game the Amarrians believe the Minmatar to be sub human, so the term monkey from a RP perspective fits. Sebeistor for example are monkeys simply because they are Minmatar, and they have the worst net tans.
Essentially i think this is the point most of the objectors have tried to put forward, although i'll agree they perhaps could have been more diplomatic about it :p
EDIT: now lets get back on track and onto the funny stuff.
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Boxing Kangaroo
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Fredior Khan'Sebies
Mikramurka Solace
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:26:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Some says, "Stop, that hurts." You continue to do it, how is that defensible?
Noone here have said that,, It is Tommy that thinks the word monkey might be inappropriate due to racist connotations.
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Why do we have to utilize a term of an animal to which I can't recall one reference in the backstory, especially if it is something that is typically banished from real life public discussions on identity?
Because it fits how an Amarr would describe a Minmatar.
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Ban the term monkey when it simply doesn't fit the backstory and is objected to and isn't being used to describe a primate with a tail in any event.
Good luck with that.
First off, I believe that Tommy made the point that the term is offensive and does hurt people. That is well documented by various protests over the use of the word in public discourse by those offended by it. If it has racist connotations, its usage should be confined to where it is obviously not used in racist ways. Bringing real world hate speech into a game simply isn't conducive to a good environment.
Second point I was trying to make was that there is no basis for saying that Amarrians would use this term. There are other terms that are much more likely to be used. Fedo is one in particular that stands out. Although there are many examples of non-human life in the Chronicles and other elements of the setting, monkeys have not, to my knowledge, been carried over to New Eden. So I contest that Amarrians would use "monkey" to describe Minmatar.
Third point is that people can agree that there are lines that should not be crossed, and bringing real life pejorative phrases such as this are among them. There is a difference between real world and in game smack, and we should be careful to use language that reflects this.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Why do we have to utilize a term of an animal to which I can't recall one reference in the backstory, especially if it is something that is typically banished from real life public discussions on identity?
Because it fits how an Amarr would describe a Minmatar.
Sadly that is down to the clumsy way that Eve fiction mirrors real life history.
Like I said, it would have been just as credible for the black 'race' in Eve to have enslaved a white 'race', for the black race to have been the more technologically advanced. The choice to mirror real world history in this way was very unimaginative and failed to anticipate the moral difficulties of role-playing racism in such a precisely reflective fiction.
This issue practically disappears when the 'races' in question are elves, dwarves and trolls, because players do not identify so closely with pretend hominid species.
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Ban the term monkey when it simply doesn't fit the backstory and is objected to and isn't being used to describe a primate with a tail in any event.
Good luck with that.
I don't support banning anything in this way. It would be unenforceable.
I would hope that challenging notions of acceptability and encouraging a more imaginative approach to roleplaying racial tensions than merely adopting real world characterisations would be sufficient.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Darineah Charach
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:31:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Some says, "Stop, that hurts." You continue to do it, how is that defensible?
Noone here have said that,, It is Tommy that thinks the word monkey might be inappropriate due to racist connotations.
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Why do we have to utilize a term of an animal to which I can't recall one reference in the backstory, especially if it is something that is typically banished from real life public discussions on identity?
Because it fits how an Amarr would describe a Minmatar.
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Ban the term monkey when it simply doesn't fit the backstory and is objected to and isn't being used to describe a primate with a tail in any event.
Good luck with that.
First off, I believe that Tommy made the point that the term is offensive and does hurt people. That is well documented by various protests over the use of the word in public discourse by those offended by it. If it has racist connotations, its usage should be confined to where it is obviously not used in racist ways. Bringing real world hate speech into a game simply isn't conducive to a good environment.
Second point I was trying to make was that there is no basis for saying that Amarrians would use this term. There are other terms that are much more likely to be used. Fedo is one in particular that stands out. Although there are many examples of non-human life in the Chronicles and other elements of the setting, monkeys have not, to my knowledge, been carried over to New Eden. So I contest that Amarrians would use "monkey" to describe Minmatar.
Third point is that people can agree that there are lines that should not be crossed, and bringing real life pejorative phrases such as this are among them. There is a difference between real world and in game smack, and we should be careful to use language that reflects this.
I see your point, but i don't see anyone objecting to the terms 'Minmatard' or 'Snail Eating Surrender Monkeys'. There's a lot of stereotypes being bandied about here, if we're going to differentiate one why not the rest? At the end of the day it's not the word that's offensive but the motive behind it, and the motives here are RP in a game so i find little reason to drag real world politics into it.
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Boxing Kangaroo
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:34:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Darineah Charach
Tommy, i think you're getting your racial terminology mixed up.
The term monkey was not derived from the colour of a persons skin. Other terms you've mentioned were but monkey derived from a belief that the persons it was referred to were sub human, closer to the apes than humanity. It was used to describe Asians in historic times as well as people of African descent. Also used in relation to Middle Eastern people.
In the context of the game the Amarrians believe the Minmatar to be sub human, so the term monkey from a RP perspective fits. Sebeistor for example are monkeys simply because they are Minmatar, and they have the worst net tans.
Essentially i think this is the point most of the objectors have tried to put forward, although i'll agree they perhaps could have been more diplomatic about it :p
EDIT: now lets get back on track and onto the funny stuff.
I appreciate your diplomatic presentation of that point. 
The fact is that this area is fraught with difficulty due to the precise way in which Eve fiction mirrors real world historical racism and exploitation. This is all the more reason for people to be sensitive about using real world abusive terms when they roleplay their racist characters.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Sitthh
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:36:00 -
[72]
Tommy TenKreds stop crying. You have derailed a good thread with your own racist thoughts. Your like Al Sharpton, you cry about ppl being racist but in reality you are the one who is the racist. You are the one seperating the races with slang words. Again. I tell you to get a dictionary, use some logic, and stop crying. Oh and a second thought, anyone who doesnt want to fight for their freedom doesn't deserve freedom.
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Arvald
The School 0f Fine Arts
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:37:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Stakhanov
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V
Originally by: Liang Nuren
There are no dangerous ships, there are dangerous people. IIRC, you are one of them.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:41:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Darineah Charach
At the end of the day it's not the word that's offensive but the motive behind it, and the motives here are RP in a game so i find little reason to drag real world politics into it.
You are right, of course. Eve is a game and most people using racist (or otherwise abusive) terms towards others do so in good fun, in character, without malicious intent.
However, it would be to their great credit to behave responsibly by not employing terms that may possibly cause real offense to others due to their real world usage.
I do accept that this view point is becoming increasingly unpopular as growing parts of western society become disassociated from 'outdated' issues of social justice. All the more reason to point it out wherever necessary in my opionion.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Furb Killer
The Peacekeeper Core
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:44:00 -
[75]
I got an even better idea.
If someone is offended by someone who calls someones character a monkey in an online game because he is the enemy, it might have some positive effects. Offend them often enough with these kind of things and they might actually stop caring about it and get a life.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:47:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Sitthh
Tommy TenKreds stop crying. You have derailed a good thread with your own racist thoughts. Your like Al Sharpton, you cry about ppl being racist but in reality you are the one who is the racist. You are the one seperating the races with slang words. Again. I tell you to get a dictionary, use some logic, and stop crying. Oh and a second thought, anyone who doesnt want to fight for their freedom doesn't deserve freedom.
You clearly have no idea what logic is. You just made at least three illogical assertions and added two straw-man arguments for good measure.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Sitthh
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:50:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Sitthh
Tommy TenKreds stop crying. You have derailed a good thread with your own racist thoughts. Your like Al Sharpton, you cry about ppl being racist but in reality you are the one who is the racist. You are the one seperating the races with slang words. Again. I tell you to get a dictionary, use some logic, and stop crying. Oh and a second thought, anyone who doesnt want to fight for their freedom doesn't deserve freedom.
You clearly have no idea what logic is. You just made at least three illogical assertions and added two straw-man arguments for good measure.
...cool so I win the a argument, awsome. Now leave this forum plz. |
Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:55:00 -
[78]
A quick list of not real- world- related slurs for minmatar:
- Coneheads or simply "cones" (self explanatory)
- Bulletchuckers (cf. "spearchuckers")
- Zoomies (they like to go real fast lol)
- Junk Jockeys (self explanatory, cf "camel jockeys")
- [insert name of famous backstory minmatar] (kinda like how indians get called "Ghandi" sometimes)
The trick is to come up with something that isn't offensive in and of itself but which sounds like it's probably raunchy -- kind of like "Hot Carl."
It's too bad we don't know what these people eat, because some of the best racial slurs derive from food ("*****er" for southern white guy, and "Moulignam" is an italian- american slur for blacks -- means literally "eggplant").
And at the risk of throwing a grenade into the thread, anybody who has a thick skin and wants to go fishing for ideas can google the Racial Slur Database; it's got some pretty choice ones and doesn't discriminate (ie, your demographic is probably in there) but it seems like a good source of inspiration.
___________________________________________
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:55:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Sitthh
You clearly have no idea what logic is. You just made at least three illogical assertions and added two straw-man arguments for good measure.
...cool so I win the a argument, awsome. Now leave this forum plz.
No you.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Akiba Penrose
PAK
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:08:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 24/05/2008 18:08:14
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
First off, I believe that Tommy made the point that the term is offensive and does hurt people. That is well documented by various protests over the use of the word in public discourse by those offended by it.
Could you refer me to some documentation that shows that online roleplayers get hurt when their characters is being referd to as monkeys?
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
If it has racist connotations, its usage should be confined to where it is obviously not used in racist ways.
Amarr is a racist faction, they hold minmatar as slaves.
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
Bringing real world hate speech into a game simply isn't conducive to a good environment.
Again,, minmatar is NOT refered to as monkeys because some of them are dark/black.
THIS is why minmatar is refereed to as monkeys
Originally by: Fredior Khan'Sebies
So I contest that Amarrians would use "monkey" to describe Minmatar.
Thats a fair point.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:16:00 -
[81]
i wish to change my vote to james
I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them. |
Trathen
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:23:00 -
[82]
While I see where Tommy is coming from, I can say that anyone that would be offended with something that specific and historical would have already been offended by the EvE lore itself (e.g. the Minmatar are the primitive savages).
This is fine to many people of course, because the rest of you are prancing effete stick figures who can barely take abuse inside of a pod, much less outside of it.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:31:00 -
[83]
What about characters who are fighting for another side than their race?
----
Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag |
Trathen
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Adonis 4174
What about characters who are fighting for another side than their race?
Dirty turncoats. Carpetbaggers. Practicioners of the most vile form of treachery and skullduggery the universe has ever witnessed. Something like that.
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Verx Interis
Aurora Security
Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:35:00 -
[85]
BALD POWERS!!!
Quote:
nub> you cant mine so you kill.
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Dr Slaughter
Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.24 19:06:00 -
[86]
-meh- the forum 'disappeared' one of my comments which is the point when I normally stop posting for a few weeks but in this case I think the 'clue' to this 'racism' issue is in James title. It's two letters long.
If any one is offended in RL by what a players character says in-game, simply petition them. If someone is role playing in game and in that context takes things too far CCP will deal with them. Corp's have had their names changed for these very reasons and people have been banned before too.
Just re-read the title of the thread and stop dragging 'real life' into it.
Rabies is unexpected
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dealing with the UNDERPANTS of eve since 2004 |
K'orbin Hayato
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Posted - 2008.05.24 20:56:00 -
[87]
Edited by: K''orbin Hayato on 24/05/2008 20:57:09
As a middle-class caucasian male, I find the idea of being offended by these so-called 'racist' terms to be laughably absurd. Anyone who is offended by them is obviously oversensitive or ridiculously PC-minded. Furthermore, I believe they should learn to not be bothered by such trivial matters.
As someone who has never been oppressed or denied anything as a result of my skin color, country of birth, religious beliefs, or financial status I think I have a unique perspective on such issues and am perfectly qualified to dismiss them as 'no big deal'.
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Kis Kecheri
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Posted - 2008.05.24 21:41:00 -
[88]
Poastin' in a lets feel sorry people we pay lip service to thread. Why do whity always gotta keep them down
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Saloris Nighthawke
Ryche's Aggressors Asylum
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Posted - 2008.05.24 22:51:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Saloris Nighthawke on 24/05/2008 22:55:55
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Oh, shut up you self-righteous ****er.
Your attitude is more offensive then Americans who intentionally immigrate to the US then expect free money and priority on jobs/services since they happen share a similar skin tone to people who were actually slaves over one hundred and fifty years ago.
I experience more daily abuse and intolerance as a transvestite giving men sexual favors for money to pay for my drug habit then any person of colour has suffered.
WTF are you talking about? Americans who immigrate TO the US? When they immigrate they are not American yet. If they are Illegal-immigrants they never will be.
Are you talking about people from other countries who come to America to *****us and steal everything?
edit: clarified a bit
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sig was here |
Xathytoz
Roswell Project Victimz
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Posted - 2008.05.25 00:05:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Xathytoz on 25/05/2008 00:12:13
Originally by: Saloris Nighthawke
WTF are you talking about? Americans who immigrate TO the US? When they immigrate they are not American yet. If they are Illegal-immigrants they never will be.
Are you talking about people from other countries who come to America to *****us and steal everything?
Sounds like the caucasians that claimed the "New World" theirs, murdering the native people, stealing their resources, destroying their culture and putting the few surivors in so called reservats where they (did) die cuz of starvation?
Congratz, Solaris, this was the first REAL racicst comment here. 
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Monkey is a racist term if you only use it in regard to black people.
Okay, first of all, again. show me one black character. Dreadlocks don't make you originated in Africa. Even Sizilian, Greek or Spanish people can get a rather dark brown skin due to their mediterainian origin. Also, since monkey (as a word of INGAME/INCHARACTER-smack, not out-of-game) is used to descripe ALL Matari (not just those Brutors with brown skin and dreadlocks, but 3 player tribes + Thukker tribe + Ammatar even) in the given example, the word monkey hits also for example Sebiestor or even Brutor chars that are as pale as white. Not to say you are making a joke out of those men and women that had and still have to suffer racism in the REAL WORLD. Go make a stand there, but don't pull this issue through the mudd here playing yourself up to the Advocate of Political Correctness.
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