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Tomekichi	Posted - 2008.05.20 23:20:00 - [1] Me and another player engaged a Curse on a gate in SYSTEM EDITED; then we suddenly had multiple hostiles in system out of nowhere and warping in on the gate. Ofc I lost my huginn, but then we had a cov ops watching the gate, and after I had jumped my pod out, he saw hostiles on the gate log off in local on the gate. This seems to me to be clearly a loggin gank. (Killmail follows here, won't post it for anonymity) If possible reimbursement would be appreciated, and thank you for your time. NAME REMOVED Note to readers: As I died, more ships were warping in; I had deagressed after a single volley at the curse but still somehow a ***ton of ships had appeared out of nowhere on top of me, and hadn't been in local 2 seconds before; without jumping in. GM response.... Hi there, I am afraid that neither logging in nor out of the game at any time is considered an exploit. Best regards, GM EDITED* EVE Online Customer Support Mine.... So if I am reading this correctly, I can set up a fleet of people on a gate, have them all log off, then wait for a hostile to engage a single one of our ships, and log an entire fleet on, ON the gate on top of him? That is fair gameplay? His.... You are welcome to do that if you want to. It is not an exploit to log into the game no matter the circumstances. Best regards, GM EDITED EVE Online Customer Support So, in short, I read this and started laughing :P. I guess it's fair play to set up loggin ganks at gates as well; the ships literally just came out of warp around us when local had been previously almost empty. It was something that I wasn't aware was allowed until now. Should have fun utilizing it I guess since it's not an exploit :).
Zurrar Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.20 23:22:00 - [2] you cant post GM responses here, even if you remove the name. Log on traps are very lame, and even tho they cant dictate when someone plays the game, using these where 3 or more players log on at once should be considered a exploit. very lame...
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.20 23:26:00 - [3] Edited by: Alora Venoda on 20/05/2008 23:26:33 well even if not exploiting, logon traps are most certainly metagaming at its finest... they are basically using logoff status as a form of cloak and a friend/alt scout to communicate through out of game channels when they should login. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.05.20 23:39:00 - [4] CCP refuse to deal with log on and log off traps. Its not illegal to do it. My advice is to stop playing with one hand tied behind you back and start cheating with the rest of them. Log off and log on to your advantage. SKUNK
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.05.20 23:43:00 - [5] And consider this: alliance fleet node crash traps aren't an exploit either. These are like the suicide bomb of logon traps tbh, since it just completely gimps everyone to some shadowy figure's advantage behind the lines.
GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.21 01:39:00 - [6] The problem here isn't the fact that they logged out to create a false sense of security. The problem here is that people are taking the insane amount of information given by local chat for granted. This is just a "Local chat is overpowered" complaint thread in disguise. Local chat will be revamped sometime in the near future. It's inevitable.
Faife Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.21 04:47:00 - [7] Originally by: GB Man The problem here isn't the fact that they logged out to create a false sense of security. The problem here is that people are taking the insane amount of information given by local chat for granted. This is just a "Local chat is overpowered" complaint thread in disguise. Local chat will be revamped sometime in the near future. It's inevitable. So explain to the OP, slowly please, how removing local is going to help the his problem, which is logon traps.
Wren Alterana Minmatar The Baros Syndicate Kissaki Republic	Posted - 2008.05.21 05:30:00 - [8] they won't need to logout of the game to jump in and gank him since local won't be around to reveal the presence of his gang. kinda obvious really _________ Dynamic Maps
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.05.21 05:58:00 - [9] Meh.. the op has an active imagination; unless he was flying an officer-fitted machariel or something, there's no way in hell anyone would bother activating a login trap for just two ships. Forget about it. They came in through a gate, this can happen surprisingly quickly. That canned GM response is more often seen when some lamo logs off after jumping through a gate into your camp, before he decloaks. And the GM is correct in that they cannot detect when a player logs off rather than is disconnected. My PC rebooted a few days ago right as I warped into a hostile camp. I would be ****ed if a GM decided that was logoffski and penalised me for it.
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.21 06:09:00 - [10] I'd be very surprised if CCP could not detect when someone hit ctrl-Q on their keyboard. Come on.

Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.05.21 06:23:00 - [11] Yeah make logging out of eve an exploit, brilliant. Honestly, i never really saw the problem with logon traps. I never done it, being solo is a quite large problem if you want to do it. But it is just the only way to avoid local, which is broken imo.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.21 06:46:00 - [12] Edited by: Hannobaal on 21/05/2008 06:46:24 Originally by: GB Man The problem here isn't the fact that they logged out to create a false sense of security. The problem here is that people are taking the insane amount of information given by local chat for granted. This is just a "Local chat is overpowered" complaint thread in disguise. Local chat will be revamped sometime in the near future. It's inevitable. Exactly. The only reason it's a "problem" is because the supposed "victims" of it have access too a lot more information (through local) than they righfully should have. If you want an rp justification for it, you can just assume that a ship logged out in space is warped out to a super deep safe spot way out, where it is impossible to detect, and on command it just warps back in.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.21 07:51:00 - [13] Local won't help, it's usually a covops or tackler ship cloaked at the gate that triggers the trap.
Huurtney Gurdsen	Posted - 2008.05.21 08:33:00 - [14] Now I'm not one to moan about ganking and camping but this is proper cheating ! Scumbags, villains, bounders. Shocking.
GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.21 08:49:00 - [15] Edited by: GB Man on 21/05/2008 09:01:52 Originally by: Faife Originally by: GB Man The problem here isn't the fact that they logged out to create a false sense of security. The problem here is that people are taking the insane amount of information given by local chat for granted. This is just a "Local chat is overpowered" complaint thread in disguise. Local chat will be revamped sometime in the near future. It's inevitable. So explain to the OP, slowly please, how removing local is going to help the his problem, which is logon traps. One of the problems with local now is that there's entirely too much information given. At a glance, you can tell exactly who is in the system, what their security/standings are, and how many people are in the system. That alone makes me laugh. Originally this kind of information was not there. The advent of programs like Bacon and its predecessors forced CCP to give this information available to all players. The unfortunate side effect of this is that players have become too accustomed to this information and take it for granted. If time is taken into it, you can instantly tell if there are hostile players in the system and make a judgment on what to do from there. When Local Chat is revamped and the log server locked down, this information will disappear and Eve will once again become the dark, cold universe that attracted so many people to it in the beginning. Quite frankly I applaud the people who came up with this little tactic, and it is nothing more than that. They've taken advantage of the fact that there are far too many that completely rely on the extreme amount of info given by Local Chat in it's current form. PS. People who cry about cloakers AFK in their systems because they are frantically trying to search around for the guy they see in Local Chat makes me LOL to no end. Another example of people who have become trapped in their comfort zones.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.05.21 09:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Wren Alterana they won't need to logout of the game to jump in and gank him since local won't be around to reveal the presence of his gang. kinda obvious really I think you're missing the point slightly. Even if local chat is removed login traps would still work just fine and they would still be very lame. Without local potential victims would need to scan for approaching hostiles, the hostiles in turn would either have to accept that if the potential victims are careful they will be seen coming, or the hostiles would have to fit cloaks and deal with the detrimental effects of that to their ship fit. The login trap would still enable the aggressors to sidestep both issues. Therefore login traps are not strictly a product of broken local, they are just just a tactic used by cheats and should imo be considered an exploit. To those people saying, 'oh you can't make it an exploit, since how can you tell the difference between someone just accidentally logging on at an opportune moment or returning from a DC'. Do you guys actually even believe yourselves? If the server logs shows a whole gang of half a dozen plus people logging onto a gate at exactly the moment a potential victim comes through, gank them and then go and do the same thing again at the same or at a different gate, how could that possibly be an accident? If 10 people in a large fleet on a lagged out node with 800 people on it get DC'ed at a gate and then return during a fight, it's most probably a DC, plus those 10 people aren't going to make much difference in a larger fight anyway, plus who would want risk trying to login for a large fight when the server is so overloaded you might not be able to login in time. It would be easy to fix by CCP reimbursing victims and warning offenders, multiple warnings result in temp then permaban. It seems to me that the bottom line is that CCP are lazy and/or incapable. I expect such an observation will get the CCP fanboys squeaking with rage and demanding my stuff but in my view the appalling state of some of the patches they release bears this out. Don't get me wrong, I like the game although I think it could be so much better. I just don't rate CCP when it comes to releasing robust stable product, nor do I rate their ability to GM the game properly either.
Jon Hawkes The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.21 09:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar I'd be very surprised if CCP could not detect when someone hit ctrl-Q on their keyboard. Come on. I wish that were true, but even if they could, unscrupulous players would still be able to kill the Exefile.exe process in the Task Manager, release their IP address or just disconnect their computer's network cable; CCP would have no way of telling if it was a deliberate logoffski or not.
GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.21 09:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Originally by: Wren Alterana they won't need to logout of the game to jump in and gank him since local won't be around to reveal the presence of his gang. kinda obvious really I think you're missing the point slightly. Even if local chat is removed login traps would still work just fine and they would still be very lame. Without local potential victims would need to scan for approaching hostiles, the hostiles in turn would either have to accept that if the potential victims are careful they will be seen coming, or the hostiles would have to fit cloaks and deal with the detrimental effects of that to their ship fit. The login trap would still enable the aggressors to sidestep both issues. Therefore login traps are not strictly a product of broken local, they are just just a tactic used by cheats and should imo be considered an exploit. To those people saying, 'oh you can't make it an exploit, since how can you tell the difference between someone just accidentally logging on at an opportune moment or returning from a DC'. Do you guys actually even believe yourselves? If the server logs shows a whole gang of half a dozen plus people logging onto a gate at exactly the moment a potential victim comes through, gank them and then go and do the same thing again at the same or at a different gate, how could that possibly be an accident? If 10 people in a large fleet on a lagged out node with 800 people on it get DC'ed at a gate and then return during a fight, it's most probably a DC, plus those 10 people aren't going to make much difference in a larger fight anyway, plus who would want risk trying to login for a large fight when the server is so overloaded you might not be able to login in time. It would be easy to fix by CCP reimbursing victims and warning offenders, multiple warnings result in temp then permaban. It seems to me that the bottom line is that CCP are lazy and/or incapable. I expect such an observation will get the CCP fanboys squeaking with rage and demanding my stuff but in my view the appalling state of some of the patches they release bears this out. Don't get me wrong, I like the game although I think it could be so much better. I just don't rate CCP when it comes to releasing robust stable product, nor do I rate their ability to GM the game properly either. He might be "missing the point," But you are failing by miles to make yours. Local gives too much information, and you were lulled into a false sense of security because of it. Get over it.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.05.21 10:33:00 - [19] Originally by: GB Man Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Originally by: Wren Alterana they won't need to logout of the game to jump in and gank him since local won't be around to reveal the presence of his gang. kinda obvious really Stuff that explained how removing local won't actually stop login traps... Stuff that erroneously assumed I want local to stay... Oh I am sorry, let me simplify it for you. I also think Eve would be better if local went away. However, even without local, login traps will still remain a useful tool to those who wish to cheat, only declaring them an exploit will change that.
Valkazm Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:03:00 - [20] its called a loggofski perfected by Red alliance ....................................... Quote: CCP Navigator mail at [email protected] for isk

GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Originally by: GB Man Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Originally by: Wren Alterana they won't need to logout of the game to jump in and gank him since local won't be around to reveal the presence of his gang. kinda obvious really Stuff that explained how removing local won't actually stop login traps... Stuff that erroneously assumed I want local to stay... Oh I am sorry, let me simplify it for you. I also think Eve would be better if local went away. However, even without local, login traps will still remain a useful tool to those who wish to cheat, only declaring them an exploit will change that. You still haven't stated why you think it's a "cheat". Assuming Local was fixed, they could simply wait in a station or the other side of the system or be cloaked on the other side of the gate. Any myriad of scenarios mimicking them. I've got a reasonable machine and from the character select screen to the time I finish coming out of the warp is about 43 seconds. A faster computer could probably narrow that down to about 30seconds or so. So even if you were jumped by BSs with cloaks, It'd be the same. Or are you telling me you wouldn't have engaged the Curse if you saw 7 other people in local? Either way It goes right back to the point that you were left with a false sense of security by Local chat. Let's remember that this info was not intended to be available to players. However programs in the past similar to Bacon, allowed other players to have this info. A compromise was made due to CCPs unwillingness to fix the log server. Fortunately with the advent of Bacon and I'm sure dozens of other in-house programs used by other corps/alliances, CCP is seriously considering biting the bullet and fixing the log server.
vile56 RillaCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:06:00 - [22] im not a fan of logoffski/onski but ccp have said it many times before anyone can log on or off when ever they want. [Image about internet spaceships removed due to legal action by the Church of Scientology.] support chanology
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:21:00 - [23] Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 21/05/2008 11:22:08 Originally by: GB Man You still haven't stated why you think it's a "cheat". Assuming Local was fixed, they could simply wait in a station or the other side of the system or be cloaked on the other side of the gate. Any myriad of scenarios mimicking them. I've got a reasonable machine and from the character select screen to the time I finish coming out of the warp is about 43 seconds. A faster computer could probably narrow that down to about 30seconds or so. So even if you were jumped by BSs with cloaks, It'd be the same. Or are you telling me you wouldn't have engaged the Curse if you saw 7 other people in local? Either way It goes right back to the point that you were left with a false sense of security by Local chat. Let's remember that this info was not intended to be available to players. However programs in the past similar to Bacon, allowed other players to have this info. A compromise was made due to CCPs unwillingness to fix the log server. Fortunately with the advent of Bacon and I'm sure dozens of other in-house programs used by other corps/alliances, CCP is seriously considering biting the bullet and fixing the log server. All that said and done. Logging out of the game and logging in the game will never be considered an exploit or a cheat. It's simply a means that some people use to put a drop on someone. It's a bit more clumsy and nowhere near as versatile as an actual cloaking device, but it's a twist non-the-less. I'm suprised you need to ask but anyway. I (and I suspect most other players) consider the login trap to be cheating because it uses 'out of game' mechanics 'metagaming' in other words, to circumvent 'in game mechanics' like scouting and scanning. And getting logon trapped is not remotely the same as getting ganked by a few cloaked BS. The difference being that using the in game mechanic of a cloak to ambush someone rightfully carries the multiple in game penalties associated with fitting a cloak to a BS, logging in a gang of BS on top of someone who has done everything reasonable to avoid being ganked carries no such penalty at all, (other than no one having any respect for you). Neither is it the same as being ganked by a gang that has warped in on you from the other side of the system, since again in game mechanics provide an element of defense against this for those willing to go to the effort. A gang warping in from distance can be picked up on the scanner when 14AU away, and if local were to be removed there is a reasonable argument for suggesting that the scanner be improved somewhat. This is what I would like to see happen since I believe it would bring a greater element of cat and mouse tactical play to the game which imo is lacking atm.
GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 21/05/2008 11:22:08 I'm suprised you need to ask but anyway. I (and I suspect most other players) consider the login trap to be cheating because it uses 'out of game' mechanics 'metagaming' in other words, to circumvent 'in game mechanics' like scouting and scanning. And getting logon trapped is not remotely the same as getting ganked by a few cloaked BS. The difference being that using the in game mechanic of a cloak to ambush someone rightfully carries the multiple in game penalties associated with fitting a cloak to a BS, logging in a gang of BS on top of someone who has done everything reasonable to avoid being ganked carries no such penalty at all, (other than no one having any respect for you). Neither is it the same as being ganked by a gang that has warped in on you from the other side of the system, since again in game mechanics provide an element of defense against this for those willing to go to the effort. A gang warping in from distance can be picked up on the scanner when 14AU away, and if local were to be removed there is a reasonable argument for suggesting that the scanner be improved somewhat. This is what I would like to see happen since I believe it would bring a greater element of cat and mouse tactical play to the game which imo is lacking atm. Alright. Let's look at this objectively. A BS going 3au/s that's prealigned 14au+ away will take 35+ seconds. A BS with a Improved Cloak II will take 42 seconds to lock on to a cruiser. 33seconds for a BS. A BS that logs in takes about 55 seconds to get back. Between you and me...Waiting logged out in the system is the last thing I'd do. Realistically, your only valid argument is that it's metagaming? I'm sorry. But that's just not good enough.
Modrak Vseth Veto.	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:40:00 - [25] Edited by: Modrak Vseth on 21/05/2008 14:40:30 Originally by: GB Man A BS going 3au/s that's prealigned 14au+ away will take 35+ seconds. Bad math is bad. Originally by: GB Man A BS with a Improved Cloak II will take 42 seconds to lock on to a cruiser. 33seconds for a BS. Assuming no sensor boosters are involved... Originally by: GB Man A BS that logs in takes about 55 seconds to get back. Maybe on a 286 running permium client. It takes me no more then 15 seconds to log on from character select to my ship, ever.
Agent Li Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:46:00 - [26] If you know they're doing it, bring a gang to other side of the gate. Log off. Have your cov ops go to their side of the gate, wait for them to gank someone, and watch them log off. Probe them down, and your gang jumps in and wtfpwns the logged out ship (or ships). When they log back in, one or more of them will wake up in station. It has its disadvantages - they're logging off with an aggression timer running. ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:59:00 - [27] All well and good for CCP to say there is nothing they can do about it. But absolutely no reason why your ship should return to the same point in space from whence it logged off. Obvious solution is if you log off in space your ship returns to a random point within 5au of your logoff position. It would then be up to the player to warp again to their chosen destination.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:01:00 - [28] Originally by: "GB Man" Alright. Let's look at this objectively. A BS going 3au/s that's prealigned 14au+ away will take 35+ seconds. A BS with a Improved Cloak II will take 42 seconds to lock on to a cruiser. 33seconds for a BS. A BS that logs in takes about 55 seconds to get back. In the two cases of the BS warping in from 14AU or the uncloaking BS, the prey has 35 or 42 or whatever seconds to react in some way. In the case of the BS logging in at the gate, I suspect your 55 seconds time is from start of attempt to logon rather than start to align, your earlier post talked about 43 and 30 seconds and that was from the character selection screen. I'm pretty sure I can get a BS to align from stationary and warp 1 million km in less than 55 seconds, in fact I think I can probably do it in about 25. But at any rate there is also a delay between logging into a system and you appearing in local that can often be 20 seconds or more. The result of this is that the effect of a well sprung login trap is you sat on a gate engaging some bait or whatever, hostiles exit warp all around you, local will appear to update at around the time the hostiles exit warp, essentailly giving you zero time to do anything about it. As far as whether it's cheating or not, it seems really self evident to me. 'not cheating' == 'playing by the rules' 'metagaming' == 'circumventing the rules' 'circumventing the rules' == NOT 'playing by the rules' Therefore: 'metagaming' == NOT 'playing by the rules' 'metagaming' == NOT 'not cheating' Remove the double negative, and voila: 'metagaming' == 'cheating'
Algia Knightstorm	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset Originally by: "GB Man" 'metagaming' == NOT 'playing by the rules' 'metagaming' == NOT 'not cheating' Remove the double negative, and voila: 'metagaming' == 'cheating' The math is simple. If you disagree with this, you must agree with buying isk and using bacon. The End.
Johncrab XBeyond	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:18:00 - [30] This, imo, is the lamest thing you can do in EVE. And, tbh, the OP should name and shame the ******** pilots that did this. How can you even have some satisfaction from a kill like this is something I will never understand. CCP really needs to do something about this. If removing local is the only option, then it should be done sooner than later.



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