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First CSM Issues: Choosing Vice Chair, Secretary, Vice Secretary.

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Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:03:00 - [1] First of all congratulations to the nine Inaugural CSM representatives! In the next three days we have to choose a Vice Chairman, Secretary and Vice Secretary from amongst the eight non-chairman reps on the council. Can I ask you all to review the requirements/specifications for these roles here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/download/devblog/CSMSummary.pdf And let me know if you are interested in assuming any of these responsibilities (in-game evemail or post on the thread, either is fine.) ItÆs my suggestion we have three simple votes to decide who gets to do what (if there is more than one applicant for each responsibility) and then announce the results prior to the first CSM meeting on Saturday. IÆll publish a list of candidates volunteering for each position, weÆll all vote on each option (vice chair, secretary, vice secretary) and everything can get rolling. All the best. Jade Constantine CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:38:00 - [2] During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:06:00 - [3] Originally by: hammyhamm During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. If that is true(I doubt, judging from the source ), Jade has my vote.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:11:00 - [4] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: hammyhamm During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. If that is true(I doubt, judging from the source ), Jade has my vote. A goon said something it must be a lie.
LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:48:00 - [5] Originally by: hammyhamm During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? _____
Skut Farkuss	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:56:00 - [6] Originally by: LASER WATCHER Originally by: hammyhamm During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? Why would you repost this? Are you a moron? A brain tumor patient? Just a highly functioning mental deficient? What would make you think that quoting this was valuable? Get out.
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Skut Farkuss Why would you repost this? Are you a moron? A brain tumor patient? Just a highly functioning mental deficient? What would make you think that quoting this was valuable? Get out. I believe my comrade was attempting a "hear hear" remark, agreeing on my line of inquiry. I think you should cut back on the agressive responses, even if you do have preconceived views
GorfobInc	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:10:00 - [8] Originally by: hammyhamm During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? I too remember this. What's happening Jade?
Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:18:00 - [9] Originally by: hammyhamm Originally by: Skut Farkuss Why would you repost this? Are you a moron? A brain tumor patient? Just a highly functioning mental deficient? What would make you think that quoting this was valuable? Get out. I believe my comrade was attempting a "hear hear" remark, agreeing on my line of inquiry. I think you should cut back on the agressive responses, even if you do have preconceived views Preconceived views that Goons them selves work very hard to create and foster. Its hardly Skuts fault that Goons have such a poor rep in any game forum they play in.. Take your hurt feelings and tell your membership not to be idiots on the forums... then maybe someone will listen to you. but probly not.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:34:00 - [10] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 22/05/2008 05:33:43 Originally by: Maor Raor Originally by: hammyhamm Originally by: Skut Farkuss Why would you repost this? Are you a moron? A brain tumor patient? Just a highly functioning mental deficient? What would make you think that quoting this was valuable? Get out. I believe my comrade was attempting a "hear hear" remark, agreeing on my line of inquiry. I think you should cut back on the agressive responses, even if you do have preconceived views Preconceived views that Goons them selves work very hard to create and foster. Its hardly Skuts fault that Goons have such a poor rep in any game forum they play in.. Take your hurt feelings and tell your membership not to be idiots on the forums... then maybe someone will listen to you. but probly not. They're Goon forums just as much as yours. I'd recommend you get used to it and act with the maturity you seem to be demanding of others.

LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Maor Raor Originally by: hammyhamm Originally by: Skut Farkuss Why would you repost this? Are you a moron? A brain tumor patient? Just a highly functioning mental deficient? What would make you think that quoting this was valuable? Get out. I believe my comrade was attempting a "hear hear" remark, agreeing on my line of inquiry. I think you should cut back on the agressive responses, even if you do have preconceived views Preconceived views that Goons them selves work very hard to create and foster. Its hardly Skuts fault that Goons have such a poor rep in any game forum they play in.. Take your hurt feelings and tell your membership not to be idiots on the forums... then maybe someone will listen to you. but probly not. Not carin', we got two people in.
Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:44:00 - [12] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON They're Goon forums just as much as yours. I'd recommend you get used to it and act with the maturity you seem to be demanding of others. Agreed .. they are forums for all of us. But Goons have their own forums to be asshats in .. The fact that they choose to do so in public game forums is a choice they make. The fact that Goon leadership encourage their members to spam and "Poast" is also a chioce. These are a choices that come with Consequences. One of which is that you cant expect people who read those forums to respect or believe anything a Goon has to say in that forum. If you dont like the Consequences then encourage your membership to choose not to be asshats in Public game forums. Its quite simple.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Maor Raor Originally by: Darius JOHNSON They're Goon forums just as much as yours. I'd recommend you get used to it and act with the maturity you seem to be demanding of others. Agreed .. they are forums for all of us. But Goons have their own forums to be asshats in .. The fact that they choose to do so in public game forums is a choice they make. The fact that Goon leadership encourage their members to spam and "Poast" is also a chioce. These are a choices that come with Consequences. One of which is that you cant expect people who read those forums to respect or believe anything a Goon has to say in that forum. If you dont like the Consequences then encourage your membership to choose not to be asshats in Public game forums. Its quite simple. Yet they seem surprised that they can't be asshats, and get away with it, likey they can everywhere else.
Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:06:00 - [14] Originally by: LASER WATCHER Not carin', we got two people in. ^ For instance Laser Watcher added nothing to the discussion other than to reinforce my point. While at the same time gloating about goons getting 2 members into the CSM. If Laser Watcher had actually had something to add beyond "Hey im an Asshat to" then all would have been well. The fact is he didnt. All he did was further undermine your own credibility by acting like a fool and implying that any goon CSM got into a CSM position through shear weight of goon numbers rather than any actual merit. I would personally love for one of the CSM issues to be cleaning up the forums but i highly dout it will be.
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Maor Raor I would personally love for one of the CSM issues to be cleaning up the forums but i highly dout it will be. Raise the point with the CSM. Write a post about it, gain 5% popular support or a one representatives backing. Run the discussion for a week then they have to bring it up at their meeting. Incidentally I'd be all for a forum clean up (and a forum software upgrade)
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:14:00 - [16] Edited by: hammyhamm on 22/05/2008 06:16:16 Originally by: Maor Raor All he did was further undermine your own credibility by acting like a fool and implying that any goon CSM got into a CSM position through shear weight of goon numbers rather than any actual merit. Why shouldn't goons vote for who they want in CSM? Our votes count as much as yours, and if we vote for one or two individuals who we believe would hold a similar stance to our opinion on current EVE game mechanics, what is the problem? I don't understand why you must be bitter about the results of the CSM election; it was a fair election and I'm quite sure that GoonSwarm members weren't the only people voting for Bane Glorius and Darius Johnson. Back to my first topic line; Jade Constantine, please respond to my initial question (post #2)
Kivin San Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:21:00 - [17] The CSM forums are descending into complete hilarity earlier than I would have guessed.
Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Papa Ina Raise the point with the CSM. Write a post about it, gain 5% popular support or a one representatives backing. Run the discussion for a week then they have to bring it up at their meeting. Incidentally I'd be all for a forum clean up (and a forum software upgrade) A pearl among turds. But even Papa Ina who has been informative, and with whom i agree whole heartedly with regard to the Software upgrade, suffers from goons poor reputation. Im not foolish enough to think that every Goon is a complete tool or that all goons are incapable of having a constructive thought. Just most of them choose not to. And after wading through post after post of goon spam its easier to just dismiss any and all goon posts as trash because %99 of the time you will be right be. To be honest i feel sorry for the Papa ina's in Goons .. they will be mostly ignored no matter how well they post.
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:29:00 - [19] Edited by: hammyhamm on 22/05/2008 06:31:28 Originally by: Maor Raor Hurf blurf look how im failing to look intellectual and am instead looking like a pretentious ****
Tress Macneille Eight year old girls GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:30:00 - [20] let's try to stick to the topic of jade promising to step down from chairman

Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:33:00 - [21] Originally by: hammyhamm Edited by: hammyhamm on 22/05/2008 06:16:16 Why shouldn't goons vote for who they want in CSM? Our votes count as much as yours, and if we vote for one or two individuals who we believe would hold a similar stance to our opinion on current EVE game mechanics, what is the problem? I don't understand why you must be bitter about the results of the CSM election; it was a fair election and I'm quite sure that GoonSwarm members weren't the only people voting for Bane Glorius and Darius Johnson. Im not bitter at all. I agree that the election was mostly free and fair and that the goon CSMs have a right to be on the CSM. Im just pointing out how Laser Watcher's lack of forum tact hurts Goons rep and the rep of their CSMs. This is just how it looks to a Non goon. Try to understand that what you see posted by your fellow goon looks quite different to you than it does when viewd throuh a non goons lense of threadnaughts and S**TPoasting. You must understand what im saying.. you are clearly not an idiot.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Maor Raor post with your main ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Maor Raor Originally by: hammyhamm Edited by: hammyhamm on 22/05/2008 06:16:16 Why shouldn't goons vote for who they want in CSM? Our votes count as much as yours, and if we vote for one or two individuals who we believe would hold a similar stance to our opinion on current EVE game mechanics, what is the problem? I don't understand why you must be bitter about the results of the CSM election; it was a fair election and I'm quite sure that GoonSwarm members weren't the only people voting for Bane Glorius and Darius Johnson. Im not bitter at all. I agree that the election was mostly free and fair and that the goon CSMs have a right to be on the CSM. Im just pointing out how Laser Watcher's lack of forum tact hurts Goons rep and the rep of their CSMs. This is just how it looks to a Non goon. Try to understand that what you see posted by your fellow goon looks quite different to you than it does when viewd throuh a non goons lense of threadnaughts and S**TPoasting. You must understand what im saying.. you are clearly not an idiot. So where in your scheme of forum tact does referring to an entire alliance as turds fall under?
Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:44:00 - [24] Originally by: hammyhamm So where in your scheme of forum tact does referring to an entire alliance as turds fall under? Its not the Alliance members that are turds. Its their posts. Its quite simple. PS - Why on earth would i post on with my main when trying to engage in a discussion with one of the most vindictive Alliances in the game?
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:44:00 - [25] I'd also like to point out that no matter what corporation or alliance a CSM representative is from or whatever specific platform they ran on, every one of them is there to represent YOU. I believe it was Darius who alone stated that he was there for that purpose.
Tress Macneille Eight year old girls GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Maor Raor Originally by: hammyhamm So where in your scheme of forum tact does referring to an entire alliance as turds fall under? Its not the Alliance members that are turds. Its their posts. Its quite simple. PS - Why on earth would i post on with my main when trying to engage in a discussion with one of the most vindictive Alliances in the game? for a guy urging e-tolerance and e-honorable e-conduct, you are being pretty harsh to some pretty reasonable posts
Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:57:00 - [27] Originally by: Papa Ina I'd also like to point out that no matter what corporation or alliance a CSM representative is from or whatever specific platform they ran on, every one of them is there to represent YOU. I believe it was Darius who alone stated that he was there for that purpose. That may well be true but who would believe it? He may in his heart of hearts want to make EvE the best game he can. And yet no one will believe him because his Alliance has such a bad rep on the forums and in game. Most Non goons will just dismiss his statements as flatout lies or propaganda or Meta gaming simply because his alliance clogs the forums with so much trash. Try to encourage your fellow goons to post like mature people and in time they will get treated as such. You cant seriously blame people for questioning goon posts.
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:59:00 - [28] It would helpful to all involved if people would post with their main characters.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:10:00 - [29] oh lol ... heavy takeover :-) but I'd be interested in Jades response anyway ...
Tress Macneille Eight year old girls GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Maor Raor Edited by: Maor Raor on 22/05/2008 07:19:30 Originally by: Tress Macneille for a guy urging e-tolerance and e-honorable e-conduct, you are being pretty harsh to some pretty reasonable posts I hardly think im being harsh. If i come across that way im sorry but i refuse to use smilys Im mearly trying to point out that you cant alow your members to fowl up the forums on one hand then expect to be taken seriously on the other. And then to get all uppity when called on it is poor form indeed. Are these the reasonable posts you were talking about? Originally by: hammyhamm Edited by: hammyhamm on 22/05/2008 06:31:28 Originally by: Maor Raor Hurf blurf look how im failing to look intellectual and am instead looking like a pretentious ** Originally by:** LASER WATCHER Not carin', we got two people in. And its posts like these that colour the perception of any others. And these arnt even that bad on a Goon scale. Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy It would helpful to all involved if people would post with their main characters. So you can hunt me in game for trying to have a disccussion about tact and credibility? Lets not and say we did. I am calling you out because this is not the thread for it. Unless you are jade alt which is extremely possible, considering his fondness for never addressing questions directed at him.

Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:36:00 - [31] Originally by: Maor Raor So you can hunt me in game for trying to have a disccussion about tact and credibility? Lets not and say we did. No, so that people's agendas are not hidden and we can discuss things openly. It's only fair considering that everyone else here is willing to show who they are for better or worse.
arghy steelwill GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:46:00 - [32] Why are you useing so many linebreaks? i know a fellar who uses lotsa line breaks. You cant yell at others for not following your system when you refuse to follow it yourself. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Brachis Eve Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:59:00 - [33] Wow, what a great way to start off the CSM discussions. Mudslinging and factioning? There's no reason for people to act in this way during what should be a time of celebration for the victorious parties. Bickering about the first actions of the CSM in such petty manner... both sides of these arguments should be ashamed. "I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor."
Trupplupagus Settling Tank	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:03:00 - [34] Originally by: Brachis Wow, what a great way to start off the CSM discussions. Mudslinging and factioning? There's no reason for people to act in this way during what should be a time of celebration for the victorious parties. Bickering about the first actions of the CSM in such petty manner... both sides of these arguments should be ashamed. Agreed- ****** faction ** should be put aside in favor of Jade answering why he's reneging on campaign promises.
LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Brachis Wow, what a great way to start off the CSM discussions. Mudslinging and factioning? There's no reason for people to act in this way during what should be a time of celebration for the victorious parties. Bickering about the first actions of the CSM in such petty manner... both sides of these arguments should be ashamed. One side was attacked and they defended, why would they be at fault? _____
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:04:00 - [36] Proof or it's a load of bull. Most of the vent conversations were logged and publiced, so without a direct quote I'm not going to believe any of this. And until there's a direct quote, my vote stands for Jade anyway, so two more council members in here please to deal with these trolling tramps. --- Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. Click the banner to watch the campaign movie.
LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:05:00 - [37] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Proof or it's a load of bull. Most of the vent conversations were logged and publiced, So you are saying that the proof is available? _____
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:06:00 - [38] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 22/05/2008 08:06:39 Originally by: Trupplupagus Agreed- ****** faction should be put aside in favor of Jade answering why he's reneging on campaign promises. Again, we need proof Jade said that. The claim was put forward by a goon that Jade said it during the VT session. But from what I hear about what happened at that session, a bunch of goons came onto the server and started acting ****. So where is the proof? I'm not saying it didn't happen. But unless Jade can indeed confirm he said that, I doubt the claim. And either way, I think Jade is the best possible chairman. I do think vice-chairman needs to be neutral, alliance wise, in order to prevent alliance discussion-bull**. Hence why I volunteered.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:10:00 - [39] Originally by: LASER WATCHER Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Proof or it's a load of bull. Most of the vent conversations were logged and publiced, So you are saying that the proof is available? I'm saying that the burden of proof is on you guys.
LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: LASER WATCHER Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Proof or it's a load of bull. Most of the vent conversations were logged and publiced, So you are saying that the proof is available? I'm saying that the burden of proof is on you guys. You said the proof is public. Show us.

hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:16:00 - [41] Edited by: hammyhamm on 22/05/2008 08:16:27 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Proof or it's a load of bull. Most of the vent conversations were logged and publiced, so without a direct quote I'm not going to believe any of this. And until there's a direct quote, my vote stands for Jade anyway, so two more council members in here please to deal with these trolling tramps. Jade Constantine held an open ventrilo session on the Star Fraction teamspeak (See this thread). While I was there (I briefly discussed with Jade about nanoship issues, destructable stations and how he would see CSM working), and to paraphrase: he stated to the others present in the open-session and I that he thought that having the public choose the leader of a committee is not how a committee works, and if that he became chairman, he would give up his seat in support of a council-voted chair. He knows he said this, and I'm sure he would not stray from his word as it would betray the trust of the council AND the voters right off the bat.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:17:00 - [42] That's not proof. Give me a recording. And since you Goons supposedly disturbed the chat, I don't think you're the party to be taken seriously here. Now shoo.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:24:00 - [43] Guys, let me make this very clear to you. UNLESS you can show me a ventrilo recording, proving your claim right, you should just shut up. The burden of proof is on you. If the claims are right, Jade has my full support as the council chairman.
Annaliese Witschak Galgorth's Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:25:00 - [44] Edited by: Annaliese Witschak on 22/05/2008 08:25:20 Who else attended the Ventrilo session?
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:26:00 - [45] Edited by: Sigul Siento on 22/05/2008 08:27:19 I'm sure Jade can answer this herself, one way or the other. For other voted CSM members to come in and say, more or less, "proof or stfu" based solely on who said it seems beside the point, and a bad omen for the CSM.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Sigul Siento I'm sure Jade can answer this herself, one way or the other. For other voted CSM memebers to come in and claim it's a lie based solely on who said it seems beside the point, and a bad omen for the CSM. You are incorrect. I have communicated with a few people, over the very SF ventrilo server, who attended the ventrilo session. And all of them claimed that goonswarm had a very heavy presence, and they kept talking crap and that they wereruining the conversation, by playing music. So I'm not solely basing my claim on who came forward with the claim.
Brachis Eve Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:32:00 - [47] What I don't like is how everyone is bickering their heads off about this, and making demands back and forth, when it's not doing ANYTHING but aggravate the situation. A question was asked of Jade, and Jade simply has yet to respond. Based on what Jade has said in previous discussions, primarily the devblog announcement topic, he's probably busy doing things in real life, or asleep, or who knows what. Based on the entirety of the campaign up until this point, Jade seems like a responsible individual, and I'm sure a response will be provided as soon as Jade is around to do it. It's ridiculous that there is an argument over this. When the question was asked, it should have dropped there. You should have all just waited for an answer from Jade before trying to take up the mantle in his defense. It's wrong of earlier posters to be making claims against a simple question being asked of SOMEONE ELSE, and it's wrong of the other parties to be goading on those individuals. One side is being overzealous, and the other side are being trolls. You're all at fault. So for now I suggest you all hold your tongues until Jade provides his own answer instead of trying to speak for him.
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:34:00 - [48] I fail to see how asking a legitimate question that the candidate obviously refuses to answer means that I should stop talking, nor do I see why any CSM candidates here believe they have the right to prevent other members of this community from voicing concerns when it is their elected responsibility to listen to them in the first place. Convictions against posters just because of their in-game allegiances is something that has no place in these discussions, and the council members have to realise this before they think of replying to someone. Reply to the person, not the corporation. I have stated twice (thrice?) now in this thread of what I personally heard Jade Constantine say, and I wish to know if he will follow through with his statement. Is he a man of his word, or is he a liar? I will not be told that what I heard from him with my own ears is false, so drop it.
Tress Macneille Eight year old girls GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:35:00 - [49] why are you all so quick to answer a question directed at jade constantine for jade constantine? He can confirm or deny it himself, your contributions on the topic are not needed.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:36:00 - [50] Jade, good to get down to business. Given the level of Signal to Noise ratio here, CSM will need a private (or at least restricted posting) forum to discuss these kind of matters. I'll EVE Mail you.

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:37:00 - [51] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 22/05/2008 08:40:30 Originally by: Tress Macneille why are you all so quick to answer a question directed at jade constantine for jade constantine? He can confirm or deny it himself, your contributions on the topic are not needed. If you read my very first post in this topic, you will see I put forward my support for Jade, should the claim be true. So what is the issue again? EDIT: But for now, let's leave it till either Jade comments, or someone puts forward proof. I'm getting a headache. Let me repeat, Jade has my full support, either way. But I agree with Serenity's sentiment. We need a private forum.
Brachis Eve Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:38:00 - [52] I'm not saying that you're wrong. It's a legitimate question that deserves a legitimate answer. What I'm saying is wrong revolves around EVERYTHING after that question. If Jade comes back and says he never said that, fine, then you can argue all you want about it, and it might even be productive. If Jade comes back and says he said it but won't follow through, fine, then you can ague all you want about it, and it might even be productive. If Jade comes back and says he said it and he'll follow through, fine, then you... you get the picture I think. It's not a matter of saying the opinions are invalidated, I'm saying that a flame war over it now, INCLUDING the flames against Goon are totally unwarranted. I don't even have a side in this argument. You're all just acting silly, and I want to see a response from the one person who actually matters: Jade. Not you. Not them. Not anyone but Jade. "I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor."
Tress Macneille Eight year old girls GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:39:00 - [53] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Tress Macneille why are you all so quick to answer a question directed at jade constantine for jade constantine? He can confirm or deny it himself, your contributions on the topic are not needed. If you read my very first post in this topic, you will see I put forward my support for Jade, should the claim be true. So what is the issue again? Hammy ham wants to know if Jade said a thing or didn't. I have no idea why you are trying to argue about whether or not we, the eve playerbase, should get to ask the chairman of the csm questions.
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:40:00 - [54] Edited by: Papa Ina on 22/05/2008 08:41:34 As CSM representatives are expected to carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow I can't see how Ankhesentapemkah is going to do well in a council environment where they can't resort to petty jibes. I would however like to ask my fellow Goonswarm members to wait for Jade Constantine to answer the question before attempting to lynch him.
OozoO GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Serenity Steele Jade, good to get down to business. Given the level of Signal to Noise ratio here, CSM will need a private (or at least restricted posting) forum to discuss these kind of matters. I'll EVE Mail you. just like in real politics, as soon as they are elected people avoid democratic control Do not discuss moderator actions or troll in your sig. -Kaemonn Email if you understand and your sig will be unlocked.([email protected])
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:44:00 - [56] Originally by: LaVista Vista You are incorrect. I have communicated with a few people, over the very SF ventrilo server, who attended the ventrilo session. And all of them claimed that goonswarm had a very heavy presence, and they kept talking crap and that they wereruining the conversation, by playing music. So I'm not solely basing my claim on who came forward with the claim. I edited my point to remove the lie bit, as it seemed inaccurate. But regardless, your post confirms what I said. Jade can answer for herself, what goons did and didn't do in the conversation doesn't change what Jade did or didn't say, and people here dispute the claim based on the actions of people who aren't Jade Constantine. If Jade comes forward and denies ever having said it, THEN those who wish to pursue the issue would have to supply proof. If it then chances that any proof was illegible because of the shenanigans of those who make the claim, that would be hilarious irony, would it not?
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:44:00 - [57] The only party resorting to petty jibes is Goonswarm. The sudden massive Goon presense in this thread is further proof that this is an organized trolling action, which is exactly in line with the tactics employed by Something Awful members. The only thing we can learn from this is that the CSM forums should be heavily moderated. So please continue your actions as they'll only serve to accomplish the opposite of what you desire. --- Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. Click the banner to watch the campaign movie.
OozoO GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:47:00 - [58] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The only thing we can learn from this is that the CSM forums should be heavily moderated. So please continue your actions as they'll only serve to accomplish the opposite of what you desire. I'd like to have a chicken sandwich, thats my only wish right now Do not discuss moderator actions or troll in your sig. -Kaemonn Email if you understand and your sig will be unlocked.([email protected])
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:48:00 - [59] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The only party resorting to petty jibes is Goonswarm. The sudden massive Goon presense in this thread is further proof that this is an organized trolling action, which is exactly in line with the tactics employed by Something Awful members. The only thing we can learn from this is that the CSM forums should be heavily moderated. So please continue your actions as they'll only serve to accomplish the opposite of what you desire. This forum trolls itself. You'll note earlier in this thread I supported a more tightly controlled forum in general. I'll also go as far as to say I've also reported posts in this forum. As for organised trolling action, would you do me the favour of counting the number of posters here and perhaps compare them to active numbers in Goonswarm. You also represent us as CSM and I'd like to remind you of that.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:49:00 - [60] Originally by: OozoO I'd like to have a chicken sandwich, thats my only wish right now You are making me hungry! But I'm having a chicken sandwich for lunch today. + hour till lunch break!

Tress Macneille Eight year old girls GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The only party resorting to petty jibes is Goonswarm. The sudden massive Goon presense in this thread is further proof that this is an organized trolling action, which is exactly in line with the tactics employed by Something Awful members. The only thing we can learn from this is that the CSM forums should be heavily moderated. So please continue your actions as they'll only serve to accomplish the opposite of what you desire. Again you are veering off the subject in your rush to condemn the imagined villainy of goonswarm, which is neither here nor there. Let's try to stick to the topic.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:52:00 - [62] Originally by: Papa Ina You also represent us as CSM and I'd like to remind you of that. And I'm perfectly willing to represent you guys. But that goes both ways, and also means that you lot should not disturb us CSMs in our activities. This accusation could easily have been made in a seperate thread, while we used this one to discuss the 3 other open positions. I'm asking you and your friends to use a seperate thread next time instead of swarming an existing one. Thank you.
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:53:00 - [63] Originally by: LaVista Vista I have communicated with a few people, over the very SF ventrilo server, who attended the ventrilo session. And all of them claimed that goonswarm had a very heavy presence, and they kept talking crap and that they wereruining the conversation, by playing music. So I'm not solely basing my claim on who came forward with the claim. When I was on the Open TS, there were 8 Star fraction members, two uknowns, myself and a fellow goon (from merchi), So I may have joined the channel either before or after the shenanigans started. Eva - As for organised troll, There are a sum total of 5 or 6 individual goonswarm posters here out of an alliance of 4000ish. I think its safe to say that the probability of more than one goonswarm poster seeing a thread on a busy public forum within the space of four hours is pretty likely.
Hardin Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:01:00 - [64] My only comment on this issue would have to be the famous EVE meme Proof or STFU But seriously tone down the anti-Goon stuff. If they (or some third party present on this infamous 'chat') can provide evidence of Jade saying that he would stand down as CSM president then you will all end up with egg on your faces. So this really is a non-discussion until some evidence is presented... ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:29:00 - [65] Thread completely cleaned. Please stay on the subject at hand. Jade Constantine has been designated Chairperson due to the number of votes received and that ruling is final. Should Jade wish to comment on this matter then it is his decision to do so. Using this forum and thread to bash each other or goad and harangue other players will result in a warning or ban. Navigator Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:32:00 - [66] Thank you Navigator. I applied for Secretary or Vice Secretary, for the record. --- Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. Click the banner to watch the campaign movie.
LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:33:00 - [67] During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? _____
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:34:00 - [68] For the record, I volunteered for vice-chairman.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:35:00 - [69] Originally by: LASER WATCHER During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? Originally by: CCP Navigator Please stay on the subject at hand. Jade Constantine has been designated Chairperson due to the number of votes received and that ruling is final. Please follow what Navigator said. If you want to discuss this, please make a seperate thread.
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:36:00 - [70] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: LASER WATCHER During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? Originally by: CCP Navigator Please stay on the subject at hand. Jade Constantine has been designated Chairperson due to the number of votes received and that ruling is final. Please follow what Navigator said. If you want to discuss this, please make a seperate thread. Please stay ontopic in this thread. However, there was a seperate thread for discussion of this issue and it was locked without reason.

LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:37:00 - [71] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: LASER WATCHER During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? Originally by: CCP Navigator Please stay on the subject at hand. Jade Constantine has been designated Chairperson due to the number of votes received and that ruling is final. Please follow what Navigator said. If you want to discuss this, please make a seperate thread. I am staying on topic, as it is about something Jade had said previously about his position. Please do not goad me, as per CCP Navigator. _____

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:44:00 - [72] Originally by: LASER WATCHER During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? Guys and girls, I am letting this one question stay and will be removing further replies on this subject until such time as Jade replies. This thread is for the election of a Vice Chairman, Secretary and Vice Secretary and this should be the main meat of the thread. I appreciate you all have questions that require answers but hi-jacking another thread to do so is not very helpful. Navigator Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:46:00 - [73] Originally by: CCP Navigator Guys and girls, I am letting this one question stay and will be removing further replies on this subject until such time as Jade replies. This thread is for the election of a Vice Chairman, Secretary and Vice Secretary and this should be the main meat of the thread. I appreciate you all have questions that require answers but hi-jacking another thread to do so is not very helpful. A perfectly reasonable suggestion. Except for the fact that you locked my thread specifically about the issue with no reason given. HYPOCRISY IN ACTION MY FRIEND. ~~~~Waterfowl Democracy, DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:48:00 - [74] Jade, please put me down for Vice Chairman and Secretary. At this stage, I'd say both are a good match for my skills, probably with a leaning towards Vice Chairman. IMO it's important that the CSM as a group have a discussion about expectations for each role before taking a vote on the positions. Eg. I have some pretty explicit expectations (as I'm sure others do) around the quality, timing and distribution of transcripts/reporting (Secretary) and ground rules for constructive/civil/technological communication within the CSM. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.05.22 09:51:00 - [75] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Originally by: CCP Navigator Guys and girls, I am letting this one question stay and will be removing further replies on this subject until such time as Jade replies. This thread is for the election of a Vice Chairman, Secretary and Vice Secretary and this should be the main meat of the thread. I appreciate you all have questions that require answers but hi-jacking another thread to do so is not very helpful. A perfectly reasonable suggestion. Except for the fact that you locked my thread specifically about the issue with no reason given. HYPOCRISY IN ACTION MY FRIEND. ~~~~Waterfowl Democracy, DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY Waterfowl, Your OP implied we had deleted Jade's thread which was not the case and was locked in kind. You are more than welcome to start a thread on a given subject as long as it stays within the forum rules (i.e Constructive content, not discussing moderation in the first line etc) Navigator Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 10:15:00 - [76] Edited by: Waterfowl Democracy on 22/05/2008 10:17:17 Originally by: CCP Navigator Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Originally by: CCP Navigator Guys and girls, I am letting this one question stay and will be removing further replies on this subject until such time as Jade replies. This thread is for the election of a Vice Chairman, Secretary and Vice Secretary and this should be the main meat of the thread. I appreciate you all have questions that require answers but hi-jacking another thread to do so is not very helpful. A perfectly reasonable suggestion. Except for the fact that you locked my thread specifically about the issue with no reason given. HYPOCRISY IN ACTION MY FRIEND. ~~~~Waterfowl Democracy, DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY Waterfowl, Your OP implied we had deleted Jade's thread which was not the case and was locked in kind. You are more than welcome to start a thread on a given subject as long as it stays within the forum rules (i.e Constructive content, not discussing moderation in the first line etc) Perhaps I will let Jade respond in this thread instead. Hope he wakes up soon, I am waiting with baited breath for his response which is certain to be a lot of words. ,.-~¦¿»¿`+~-.+-(_WaTeRf0vvL dEm0cRaCy_)-,.-~¦¿»¿`+~-.+ DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY PRESIDENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC DEFENDERS NO VOTES FOR THE STUPID
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:04:00 - [77] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 22/05/2008 11:14:11 An easy situation for Jade, not the thorn hoped for by the goons. It can be handled with minimum friction as shown below. The first order of business has been set by CCP as Council position election. Personally initiated motions, i.e., re-voting on Chairman, must wait. Next, after positions are set, Jade can resign and start the re-vote for Chairman. The results are somewhat predictable. Goons vote no. The other members vote to keep Jade, if only to show up the goons. Especially the ones in this thread.
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:38:00 - [78] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 22/05/2008 11:20:29 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 22/05/2008 11:20:08 An easy situation for Jade, not the thorn hoped for by the goons. It can be handled with minimum friction as shown below. The first order of business has been set by CCP as Council position election. Personally initiated motions, i.e., re-voting on Chairman, must wait. Next, after positions are set, Jade can resign and start the re-vote for Chairman. The results are somewhat predictable. Goons vote no. The other members vote to keep Jade, if only to show up the goons. Especially the ones in this thread. The animosity perpetrated by the goons toward Jade and the other CSM elected in this and other threads will likely make them more cohesive against attacks from inside or out. Please attempt to stay on topic in this thread as CCP Navigator asked.
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:48:00 - [79] Originally by: LASER WATCHER During your discussions on your open ventrilo session, you promised that if you were to gain the Chairman position, you would immediately relinquish the position and institute a vote among the council members to pick a chairman. Are you still holding this view or are you reneging on your election promises? Will this set the tone for time to come? You stole my entire first post from before the thread was cleaned My question still stands, however.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:12:00 - [80] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 22/05/2008 12:12:53 Originally by: Kis Kecheri An easy situation for Jade, not the thorn hoped for by the goons. It can be handled with minimum friction as shown below. The first order of business has been set by CCP as Council position election. Personally initiated motions, i.e., re-voting on Chairman, must wait. Next, after positions are set, Jade can resign and start the re-vote for Chairman. The results are somewhat predictable. Goons vote no. The other members vote to keep Jade, if only to show up the goons. Especially the ones in this thread. The animosity perpetrated by the goons toward Jade and the other CSM elected in this and other threads will likely make them more cohesive against attacks from inside or out. Morning everyone! Yep, I decided after consultation that the best route forward if I actually want to change the constitution from making the chairman position an automatic post to an elected post was to function as stand-in chairman initially and propose a measure myself for the agenda. This proposal is going to need the seven-day discussion period and 5/9 CSM votes to make the formal agenda for Iceland (as does any other measure). Anybody that desires further debate on that subject is welcome to contribute on the topic when it's formally-raised in the appropriate forum section. But for now we will follow the process we signed up to follow - hence I'm organizing the vote for the positions currently electable on the CSM (Vice-chair, Secretary, Vice-Secretary) according to the existing constitution. At this time we have the following interest declared: Vice President: Serenity, LaVista Secretary: Serenity, Ankhesentapemkah Vice Secretary: Ankhesentapemkah I'm going to keep checking my eve-mail today (and this forum) and I'd invite all candidates to an informal discussion in-game at 22:00 hours eve time tonight - where we'll cover the expectations and requirements in more depth. After this I'll finalize the list of applicants and we'll cast our votes over the next 24 hours (by eve-mail) and I'll publish the outcome in the appropriate forum. All the best. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:21:00 - [81] It is unfortunate that Jade has decided to go back upon his words after "consultation" (consultation with whom I must ask). It is interesting to note that reading the CSM.pdf document as written it is not possible to step down as chair after the selection of vices. "By default, the Representative with the highest vote tally is awarded with the responsibilities of Chairman for the CSM . Within three days of the general election, the Representatives must hold an internal vote to determine a Vice-Chairman, Secretary, and V ice-Secretary. Failure to hold this vote, or if the vote is inconclusive, awards ôgrantingö authority to the Chairman, who may then appoint council members to the other positions as he or she sees fit. If the Chairman decides to step down or rescind his responsibility during this time for any reason, a vote must be held among Representatives to replace him." As I'm sure that Jade is aware of this I wonder what he proposed to do after the Vices were elected and it became clear that within the rules he cannot step down. Jade, please make a choice, step down NOW and a vote will be held for the CSM Chair or fail to step down and show that you can misrepresented yourself during the election.
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:23:00 - [82] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy It is unfortunate that Jade has decided to go back upon his words after "consultation" (consultation with whom I must ask). It is interesting to note that reading the CSM.pdf document as written it is not possible to step down as chair after the selection of vices. "By default, the Representative with the highest vote tally is awarded with the responsibilities of Chairman for the CSM . Within three days of the general election, the Representatives must hold an internal vote to determine a Vice-Chairman, Secretary, and V ice-Secretary. Failure to hold this vote, or if the vote is inconclusive, awards ôgrantingö authority to the Chairman, who may then appoint council members to the other positions as he or she sees fit. If the Chairman decides to step down or rescind his responsibility during this time for any reason, a vote must be held among Representatives to replace him." As I'm sure that Jade is aware of this I wonder what he proposed to do after the Vices were elected and it became clear that within the rules he cannot step down. Jade, please make a choice, step down NOW and a vote will be held for the CSM Chair or fail to step down and show that you can misrepresented yourself during the election. Please attempt to stay on topic in this thread as CCP Navigator asked.
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:24:00 - [83] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Please attempt to stay on topic in this thread as CCP Navigator asked. I am responding to Jade's post relating to a matter of procedure in the CSM process. If you have a personal grievance with me I suggest you take it up via evemails so that I may freely ignore you.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:25:00 - [84] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 22/05/2008 12:25:29 Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Jade, please make a choice Done it. I've chosen to follow the agreed process for making changes to the constitution. Now you can make a choice Waterfowl, you can choose to do as I've asked and register your opinions when the matter comes up for formal discussion in CSM issue thread. Or you can choose to continue attempting to de-rail a thread on a different subject. Any which way your question is answered, have a nice day. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:34:00 - [85] Jade has answered the question so please keep all further posts on the topic at hand, namely the election of a Vice Chairperson, Secretary and Vice Secretary. Navigator Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:37:00 - [86] Edited by: Waterfowl Democracy on 22/05/2008 12:37:40 ^^^ CCP Navigator, this is a topic that deserves discussion and if you will not allow it in this thread I ask that you copy the relevent posts to a new thread for the discussion of this topic. Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 22/05/2008 12:25:29 Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Jade, please make a choice Done it. I've chosen to follow the agreed process for making changes to the constitution. Now you can make a choice Waterfowl, you can choose to do as I've asked and register your opinions when the matter comes up for formal discussion in CSM issue thread. Or you can choose to continue attempting to de-rail a thread on a different subject. Any which way your question is answered, have a nice day. You stated that after the first meeting in Iceland you would step down as Chair. Only after I showed you that this would not be possible did you declare your position completely. The proper course of action is in fact for you to step down as you claimed you would. Do you deny that you said that? Do you deny that changing your mind only after the voting has closed and you are elected is a gross betrayal of trust of those subscribers who voted for you? Why is it that you lack confidence in the CSM process to the degree that you claim you cannot pursue your agenda of changing the Chair election procedure without being Chair yourself? If the CSM is as flawed as you obviously think it is why did you run for election in the first place? Surely an outsider's position would be more effective in this regard. I'm sorry that you feel discussing a gross betrayal of trust by an elected representative is "off-topic". Do you know who else thought criticism of elected representatives was "off-topic"? Stalin. Personally I feel that with you as the CSM Chair the CSM will be without direction and unable to make progress on topics that concern the players of eve (those people you claim to serve).
Brachis Eve Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:39:00 - [87] Edited by: Brachis on 22/05/2008 12:40:51 The problem is that, as written, the document implies that should the Chairman choose to step down, the council cannot choose to reinstate him if he gets the popular vote. It says, very clearly, that it is only to replace the chairman. In this case, I'm sure Jade would like to be Chair, but wants to make sure that it is the will of the council. In this case, he would need to remain chair long enough to call the vote to have the process changed in such a manner that a vote could be done in this fashion. It makes total sense, and he is in no way backing down from his former statement. He is merely making sure that the process is completed exactly by the book. Edit: Please delete my post if it is out of place. If so, I apologize. "I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor."
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:40:00 - [88] Originally by: Jade Constantine Morning everyone! Yep, I decided after consultation that the best route forward if I actually want to change the constitution from making the chairman position an automatic post to an elected post was to function as stand-in chairman initially and propose a measure myself for the agenda. This proposal is going to need the seven-day discussion period and 5/9 CSM votes to make the formal agenda for Iceland (as does any other measure). Anybody that desires further debate on that subject is welcome to contribute on the topic when it's formally-raised in the appropriate forum section. This is a very ellegant political move Jade. Playing by the rules and avoiding direct consequences thus far. You are leaving this to the official CCP process which takes time. No doubt one of the Goon representatives will show support for this and tries to cut down on the time needed to bring this to CCP. I think you have however no choice. If you don't step down, the Goons will be crying very loud till you do. And no matter how you are trying to avoid or play down the issue, they will scream foul. If the promise to step down as Chairman if elected is true (I don't know this other then this thread), all I can say is, it was a very unwise move you made there. Anyway good luck as Chairman so far. There seem to be difficult times ahead for you. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Sunwillow Auryn	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:51:00 - [89] Edited by: Sunwillow Auryn on 22/05/2008 12:51:58 Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy I'm sorry that you feel discussing a gross betrayal of trust by an elected representative is "off-topic". Do you know who else thought criticism of elected representatives was "off-topic"? Stalin. Given that the topic in this instance is on the election of the non-chair positions (get that? NON-chair - let me say again - NOT THE CHAIRMAN), any discussion related to the chairman position is off topic. Do as CCP say - put it on another thread. It's not that hard to do.
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:53:00 - [90] Originally by: Sunwillow Auryn Given that the topic in this instance is on the election of the non-chair positions (get that? NON-chair - let me say again - NOT THE CHAIRMAN), any discussion related to the chairman position is off topic. Do as CCP say - put it on another thread. It's not that hard to do. Please stay ontopic in this thread.

Sunwillow Auryn	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:57:00 - [91] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Please stay ontopic in this thread. Good point. Ankh for secretary! Rah rah!
LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:59:00 - [92] page 2 snypa _____
Luciela Darkfall	Posted - 2008.05.22 14:17:00 - [93] <Goon alt without main at this time. Already stating. This attitude was predicted. The whole "I'm gonna step down" turning into "actually, no." is horribly clichT. I see this is as a very, very bad start. Well it seems clear to me that no matter the pressure Jade won't turn down, since he isn't really obligated to do so. I can just hope for the best out of this CSM although I really got the feeling we won't be seeing it.
Trupplupagus Settling Tank	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:37:00 - [94] Originally by: Luciela Darkfall <Goon alt without main at this time. Already stating. This attitude was predicted. The whole "I'm gonna step down" turning into "actually, no." is horribly clichT. I see this is as a very, very bad start. Well it seems clear to me that no matter the pressure Jade won't turn down, since he isn't really obligated to do so. I can just hope for the best out of this CSM although I really got the feeling we won't be seeing it. Agreed. There is really no reason whatsoever for Jade to step down. The rules are set up fairly clearly and CCP arranged an organized and easily understandable system. The real shame is that Jade chose to make promises and then immediately fail to live up to them because they were against his personal whims AFTER the election was completed. I think everyone can agree that lying about an important, trust related issue like this for the purpose of getting elected does not bode well for his ability to address other issues that effect players, especially if those interests run contrary to his own. Again, CCP Navigator, while I understand that this is a volatile subject, I believe that outright lies on an issue as huge as leadership of the council are something that the voters deserve clear answers and discussion on. If this is unacceptable, would you please move this post with the others into it's own thread? Thank you very much.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:00:00 - [95] Originally by: Jade Constantine I'm going to keep checking my eve-mail today (and this forum) and I'd invite all candidates to an informal discussion in-game at 22:00 hours eve time tonight I'll be there. --- Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. Click the banner to watch the campaign movie.
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:06:00 - [96] I would be willing to fill the position of vice-chairman and I'd put my ass into it. Overall, I think it's important that whomever we choose to be vice-chairman does not essentially duplicate the views of the chairman, lest we descend into groupthink. It is important that the vice-chair has a stance at least slightly different from the chairman on some key issues, or else important topics may wind up neglected. Some people might resist that notion because it is proposed by a goon, but if the situation was reversed and (let's say) I was the chairman, the rest of the council would agree unequivocally and elect a polar opposite to balance the leadership. I would be perfectly fine with that.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:28:00 - [97] Originally by: Bane Glorious I would be willing to fill the position of vice-chairman and I'd put my ass into it. Overall, I think it's important that whomever we choose to be vice-chairman does not essentially duplicate the views of the chairman, lest we descend into groupthink. It is important that the vice-chair has a stance at least slightly different from the chairman on some key issues, or else important topics may wind up neglected. I certainly agree with this (yeah I know I'm not on the CSM etc etc) but my personal suggestion would be to put Hardin in as VC as a) he had very nearly as many votes as Jade and b) his views are almost as polar opposite from Jade's as possible. Anyway food for thought. ---
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:45:00 - [98] Okay, Serenity has been kind enough to set us all up with a CSM/email account (details sent to your in-game evemail accounts). We'll make sure they are all working and use these accounts to conduct the votes for the additional council positions if we fail to get everyone at the informal meeting this evening. Can I ask everyone to please check this works (9 primaries and 5 alternates) - it'll be a valuable out of game means of communication for us as the CSM process goes on. Thanks. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:49:00 - [99] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 22/05/2008 16:49:45 Originally by: Jade Constantine Okay, Serenity has been kind enough to set us all up with a CSM/email account (details sent to your in-game evemail accounts). We'll make sure they are all working and use these accounts to conduct the votes for the additional council positions if we fail to get everyone at the informal meeting this evening. Can I ask everyone to please check this works (9 primaries and 5 alternates) - it'll be a valuable out of game means of communication for us as the CSM process goes on. Thanks. Did the evemail come from serenity? My evemailbox has tens of thousands of evemails since CCP has decided to use it as a corporate logging mechanism for EVERY EVENT EVER related to a corporation. ps. Thanks Serenity!
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:01:00 - [100] Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Bane Glorious I would be willing to fill the position of vice-chairman and I'd put my ass into it. Overall, I think it's important that whomever we choose to be vice-chairman does not essentially duplicate the views of the chairman, lest we descend into groupthink. It is important that the vice-chair has a stance at least slightly different from the chairman on some key issues, or else important topics may wind up neglected. I certainly agree with this (yeah I know I'm not on the CSM etc etc) but my personal suggestion would be to put Hardin in as VC as a) he had very nearly as many votes as Jade and b) his views are almost as polar opposite from Jade's as possible. Anyway food for thought. Hardin would be just as good if not better than me, and I have no problem with that. I simply wanted to put in my bid since Hardin has not volunteered himself just yet. If he wants to be vice-chairman, I'd be willing to concede the position to him.

Hardin Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:22:00 - [101] Edited by: Hardin on 22/05/2008 17:23:54 I believe that Bane would be better than me as Vice Chair for three main reasons: 1) If known roleplayers are chosen as both Chair and Vice-Chair the RP community will be completely scapegoated if the CSM turns to ****! I could never show my face on the Chatsubo forums again 2) More seriously I agree that the Vice-Chair should be a counterpoint to the Chair and I believe that Bane and Jade probably enjoy more points of difference than Jade and I. 3) Vice Chair sounds suspiciously like Vice-President. I am worried that if selected for that post that I will end up misspelling words such as potato Seriously Bane seems keen for the role and will put his back into it so I think I would support him for the role and ideally Serenity for Secretary (if he is interested). ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 18:03:00 - [102] Originally by: Hardin Edited by: Hardin on 22/05/2008 17:23:54 I believe that Bane would be better than me as Vice Chair for three main reasons: 1) If known roleplayers are chosen as both Chair and Vice-Chair the RP community will be completely scapegoated if the CSM turns to ****! I could never show my face on the Chatsubo forums again 2) More seriously I agree that the Vice-Chair should be a counterpoint to the Chair and I believe that Bane and Jade probably enjoy more points of difference than Jade and I. 3) Vice Chair sounds suspiciously like Vice-President. I am worried that if selected for that post that I will end up misspelling words such as potato Seriously Bane seems keen for the role and will put his back into it so I think I would support him for the role and ideally Serenity for Secretary (if he is interested). Points one and three are sensible and well taken (especially point three) but I think Bane is closer to Jade's opinion on some subjects than you are. Having said that I think there is alot to be said for having Bane as VC to be honest (I just realised my first post came across as a "Hardin not Bane" post whereas it was meant to be a "Hardin would be good" post. Sorry about that Bane my dear chap). Personally speaking I see nobody on the CSM that I would shudder at if they were made VC as I think everyone who has been voted in has shown in thier campaigning that they are the right people to be there (even if I do think some of them need to relax a bit ;) ). Good luck to whomever gets the job. ---
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 18:06:00 - [103] Originally by: Heartstone Bane is closer to Jade's opinion on some subjects than you are Unlikely. Bane thinks things through rationally. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 18:19:00 - [104] Jade and I will see eye-to-eye on sovereignty being too difficult to challenge, though I will likely be much more conservative than him. We will likely not see eye-to-eye when it comes to capital ships, nanos, and blobbing, though nanos aren't really a big part of my campaign. I have a couple of pet issues that I really want to discuss. Other than that, I'm mostly open to other possible topics.
Omber Zombie Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.05.22 18:22:00 - [105] Edited by: Omber Zombie on 22/05/2008 18:22:44 i won't be able to get into my evemail for a couple of days - could you email the details to me (my hotmail account should be sufficient) edit: forgot you can't put your email addy on here - the first part of it is o.zombie - you should be able to figure out the rest :) ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog \| 1st Campaign Vid
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 22:23:00 - [106] Okay we've concluded the informal meeting on the appointments which leaves us with the following shortlist of interest for the CSM roles: Vice Chairman: Ankhesantapemkah Bane Glorious LaVista Vista Serenity Steel Secretary: Serenity Steel Ankhesantapemkah Vice Secretary: Serenity Steel Ankhesantapemkah Ankhesantapemkah will be standing in as Secretary for the first meeting on Saturday by agreement of the informal council meeting. It was agreed by an informal show of hands that we'd wait for the beginning of the formal CSM meeting on Saturday to confirm these roles. And that was that. So we've got a couple of days to decide who gets to volunteer for what responsibility and we'll confirm it at the very beginning of the first CSM meeting. (I'll be releasing the eve-time of the Saturday meeting no later than 24 hours in advance.) All the best. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:10:00 - [107] Edited by: Bane Glorious on 09/06/2008 23:10:59 ewps


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