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solution for nano gangs

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Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:51:00 - [1] Edited by: Zurrar on 22/05/2008 03:55:16 After thinking about the nano gang problem, i have figured out a possible solution. Webs reduce speed, all the same for every ship, no matter the size or mass. The main problem of webbing a nano ship is the inertia that it has, the pilot can change direction or just keep going away from the web source until 10km out. A nice, and easy solution to this that would change nano gangs completely is a 'more mass=faster slow downs', and mass=speed reduced. Example, a ishtar has a whole hella lot of mass. A interceptor webbing the ship would draw it to a stop no matter the speed FAST. On the other hand. A frigate, more specifically a assault frigate wouldn't be effected near as bad with the same web that was used on the ishtar. So basically, webs would be changed from the generic -??% to a formula similar to r=m/w (reduced, mass, web). Or a simpler way to put it, webs have a different strength to each ship. I believe this would put nano gangs back on track, and give frigs (and most importantly assault frigs) the buff they need. /me puts on flame suit
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:51:00 - [2] Edited by: Zurrar on 22/05/2008 03:55:16 After thinking about the nano gang problem, i have figured out a possible solution. Webs reduce speed, all the same for every ship, no matter the size or mass. The main problem of webbing a nano ship is the inertia that it has, the pilot can change direction or just keep going away from the web source until 10km out. A nice, and easy solution to this that would change nano gangs completely is a 'more mass=faster slow downs', and mass=speed reduced. Example, a ishtar has a whole hella lot of mass. A interceptor webbing the ship would draw it to a stop no matter the speed FAST. On the other hand. A frigate, more specifically a assault frigate wouldn't be effected near as bad with the same web that was used on the ishtar. So basically, webs would be changed from the generic -??% to a formula similar to r=m/w (reduced, mass, web). Or a simpler way to put it, webs have a different strength to each ship. I believe this would put nano gangs back on track, and give frigs (and most importantly assault frigs) the buff they need. /me puts on flame suit
Golden Helmet The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:52:00 - [3] Solution for nano gangs: Rapier, Huginn, Curse, Falcon. Mix and match to suit your tastes. The Python Cartel is recruiting low sec pirates!
Golden Helmet The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:52:00 - [4] Solution for nano gangs: Rapier, Huginn, Curse, Falcon. Mix and match to suit your tastes. The Python Cartel is recruiting low sec pirates!
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:55:00 - [5] The generic answer, not everyone flys those ships or has plans to fly them. I will not skill a 30 day skill to fly a rapier, then how ever long for nav skills, then gunnery skills. Why not try to contribute instead of troll, instead of reading the title and not the post. Here ill fix the title to a broader one.
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:55:00 - [6] The generic answer, not everyone flys those ships or has plans to fly them. I will not skill a 30 day skill to fly a rapier, then how ever long for nav skills, then gunnery skills. Why not try to contribute instead of troll, instead of reading the title and not the post. Here ill fix the title to a broader one.
Avaricia The Accursed	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:56:00 - [7] why not keep it simple and simply decrease the effectiveness of low slot speed mods? remember when ships we're a lot slower despite the fact speed mods didn't stack? things that make you go "hmmmmm..." reign of terror griefmatic
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.22 03:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Zurrar The generic answer, not everyone flys those ships or has plans to fly them. Not everyone flies, or has plans to fly anything beyond t1 cruisers either. Does that mean that anything that is able to kill t1 cruisers need to be nerfed to suit t1 cruiser play style more? No. If you don't train to counter a common tactic, you are the one who should be punished for it - not those who fly what you're too stubborn (or dumb) to want to train to counter. Black Hand.
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:00:00 - [9] You would still have the same problem, except at slightly lower speeds. What i have described fixes the problem for the most part. If theres a cepter around with a web a nano ship would be less likely to escape or engage.
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Zurrar The generic answer, not everyone flys those ships or has plans to fly them. Not everyone flies, or has plans to fly anything beyond t1 cruisers either. Does that mean that anything that is able to kill t1 cruisers need to be nerfed to suit t1 cruiser play style more? No. If you don't train to counter a common tactic, you are the one who should be punished for it - not those who fly what you're too stubborn (or dumb) to want to train to counter. Or maybe those of us have skill plans we stick to. Ishtar isnt meant to go 5.5km/s, curse isnt meant to nano tank, instead of the generic 'train for rapier you nub' why not listen to ideas. And im not talking about a ship that can kill t1 cruisers, who said anything about t1 cruisers? A single hac, that can engage any bs (with out neuts) and not take a single hit. That is the problem, its invulnerability basically.
Efdi Brannigan's Law	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:08:00 - [11] Solution without a problem. (You have to first prove there is a problem before you can present a solution, ta.) _______________________________ Yes, I am an alt. No, I can't post with my main; he's forum banned. Yes, I will be happy to smack you with my main when I'm unbanned.
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:10:00 - [12] Originally by: Efdi Solution without a problem. (You have to first prove there is a problem before you can present a solution, ta.) nothing wrong with a ishtar doing 5.5km/s, that out runs missile explosions (even t2 precision cruise), that cant be shot at.
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:11:00 - [13] The problem is all the people who converted to nano, that are thick headed. You guys have one track minds, its your way or no way. The solution im offering lets you keep the 5.5km/s ishtar. It just makes you think twice about how you attack ships.
El'Niaga Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:18:00 - [14] The solution would be to reintroduce minefields....
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:19:00 - [15] Originally by: El'Niaga The solution would be to reintroduce minefields.... im all for that :D
Efdi Brannigan's Law	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Zurrar nothing wrong with a ishtar doing 5.5km/s, that out runs missile explosions (even t2 precision cruise), that cant be shot at. Those would be the battleship missiles, right? My bad, I forgot bigger is always better.
Zurrar Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Zurrar nothing wrong with a ishtar doing 5.5km/s, that out runs missile explosions (even t2 precision cruise), that cant be shot at. Those would be the battleship missiles, right? My bad, I forgot bigger is always better. They are really the only ones with the range to hit em...
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:30:00 - [18] hmm sounds like my idea form back a while would help here. I had an idea to make AFs nano killers. the idea was to make a new missle launcher only half the AFs could use, it's a long range small missle. it does damage like a small missle but it has a small web effect and very fast speed, 5,000m/s with a 5 s flight time. slow RoF. thus each missle slows the target down and still hits. something else of coruse like the missles decease the ship using it's speed by 20% per missles as well so it can't nano while counting nano. or make this ship a new tech 2 destroyer? other idea was to ive them a bonus to thier short range weapons like autocannons for a 500% bonus to range. %
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:32:00 - [19] Couple of problems with this suggestion. 1: Nano ships by definition have nanofibres which reduce their mass, making this less effective. 2: Based on your example of a cruiser-sized hull, there's no real scaling of the effects. You're either a frigate-class ship, or a web slows you to hell instantly. 3: Most importantly in my view: It's REALLY counter-intuitive. More mass should contribute towards making a ship harder to slow down. For an easy real-world example, see a freight train. It's more intuitive that lower inertia makes something easier to slow.
El Mauru Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:36:00 - [20] Meh- I'd prefer a curved speed-cap at 5000-6000ms. (i.e.: Like with resistances; the closer you get to the mark, the less your stuff does). That way any ship can still be tackled/webbed by a well-fitted t-2 inty (who incidentaly has to sacrifice his tank). Nothing's wrong with nano- it's the fully-tricked ships (rigs, snake, faction mwd) which kind of ruin the fun (as awesome as they might be :-P) -
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Zurrar Originally by: Efdi Originally by: Zurrar nothing wrong with a ishtar doing 5.5km/s, that out runs missile explosions (even t2 precision cruise), that cant be shot at. Those would be the battleship missiles, right? My bad, I forgot bigger is always better. They are really the only ones with the range to hit em... Wrong. Cerb 200+ range, 10km velocity. Heavy missile CN scourge. Firing a missile every 4.8 sec. Instead of trying to change someone else's tactics on how they engage, try to develop your own tactics to adjust. I do not fly anything Nano. I am pretty conventional in my ship types and basic tactics. And I for one, do not fear the Nano gangs at all. I have lost to them and beat them. A battleship is not the end all to deal with fast or small ships. It is designed for specific roles. All I need to see is the erroneous statement about how there should be no way a Vaga should be able to take down a BS, and I already know for a fact that person is not experienced in EvE PvP, or understands the mechanics. As I stated before, I do not fly Nano's what so ever. As A player, I have dealt with hordes of Nano gangs, and I see nothing wrong with them.
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:49:00 - [22] Nano Ishtars don't do 5.5k. Nano Ishtars with max skills might do close to 3.5-3.7k. Nano Ishtars with max skills and some implants can do upwards of 4.5k Nano Ishtars with max skills, implants, gang bonuses might do 5.2k Nano Ishtars with max skills, implants, gang bonuses, and command ship bonuses can go 6.5k and beyond depending on the ammount of ISK spent. There's a lot involved there. A single Ishtar is not going to kill a BS, unless you're not carrying a Neut, because you can simply warp away. An Ishtar and an Inty, is a deadly combination to a single BS. When two people gang up on one, there's a very good chance you're going to die, unless you're at a gate, you just jump out. If you're in a belt ratting, well... you're in deep crap at this point. You have a gang, using ships designed for skirmish warfare, vs. a ship that's designed for sieging or fleet warfare. You've missed your opportunity to leave when they entered local, and you have no backup. It's your achilles heel, you have no reinforcements, and you should know that you're going to die at this point. You learn your lesson, you plan more carefully in your fittings, pay more attention to who's around, and make sure you have friends around to save each others arses. Of course you can continue to be a nub if you choose not to follow the advice above.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:21:00 - [23] meh I think it should work like it real life where if you push a machine too far past what it's suppose to do something bad happens. thus sandboxy, and realistic. I don't know what the draw back shold be but there should be a point where you can start to lose locks... or... maybe a chance to miss a MWD cycle based on speed compared to the ships mass? the heavy the faster you can go without missing a cycle.?
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:29:00 - [24] Originally by: MotherMoon meh I think it should work like it real life where if you push a machine too far past what it's suppose to do something bad happens. thus sandboxy, and realistic. I don't know what the draw back shold be but there should be a point where you can start to lose locks... or... maybe a chance to miss a MWD cycle based on speed compared to the ships mass? the heavy the faster you can go without missing a cycle.? Well, there's a point in which you go so fast that you can't keep in a short enough orbit to keep someone scrammed, or track with your guns...
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: MotherMoon meh I think it should work like it real life where if you push a machine too far past what it's suppose to do something bad happens. thus sandboxy, and realistic. I don't know what the draw back shold be but there should be a point where you can start to lose locks... or... maybe a chance to miss a MWD cycle based on speed compared to the ships mass? the heavy the faster you can go without missing a cycle.? Well, there's a point in which you go so fast that you can't keep in a short enough orbit to keep someone scrammed, or track with your guns... touche
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:00:00 - [26] Edited by: Veldya on 22/05/2008 07:03:19 Originally by: Zurrar Originally by: Efdi Solution without a problem. (You have to first prove there is a problem before you can present a solution, ta.) nothing wrong with a ishtar doing 5.5km/s, that out runs missile explosions (even t2 precision cruise), that cant be shot at. Shoot the Ishtar's drones, heavy neut the ishtar. Dead drones, no dps and dead Ishtar if he doesn't bugger off in a hurry. If you have the Ishtar webbed, scrambled an neuted then it is screwed. The only good thing about the ishtar is the drone damage and the solid tank it has. All are worthless if the drones are dead and the ishtar has no cap. If the Ishtar is out of neut range then it is of no threat outside of the drones. Havy Drones take a lot of damage from missiles, even cruise.
Tob'ias Sjodin Organized Crime Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:15:00 - [27] Not sure why we're educating the whiners. Clearly the game is broken, not their adaptability
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:40:00 - [28] Webs should be sig radius based. It allows an afterburner to be a viable option, and keeps mwd's where they should be, FAST and long range. A/B will immediately become an option for assault frigs, HACS, and the 2nd "shooty" ceptor that is currently worthless. GIVE US SIG BASE WEBS! Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Golden Helmet Solution for nano gangs: Rapier, Huginn, Curse, Falcon. Mix and match to suit your tastes. Sadly you are assuming that the majority of the population will step out of thier ISK-whoring Ravens and actually train something useful for combat ops . It is-of course-much easier to whine. As proven by the barrage of bull**** threads similar to this one . p.s. Not aimed at you
Solomunio Kzenig SPORADIC MOVEMENT	Posted - 2008.05.22 08:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 22/05/2008 05:06:04 Nano Ishtars don't do 5.5k. Nano Ishtars with max skills might do close to 3.5-3.7k. Nano Ishtars with max skills and some implants can do upwards of 4.5k Nano Ishtars with max skills, implants, gang bonuses might do 5.2k Nano Ishtars with max skills, implants, gang bonuses, and command ship bonuses can go 6.5k and beyond depending on the ammount of ISK spent, and of course let's not forget there's three players vs. you (Inty, Command Ship, and Ishtar). So you really have to ask yourself, just how many experienced players determined to kill you should you be able to take on, defeat, or retreat from? Would it be fair to them? There's a lot involved there. A single Ishtar is not going to kill a BS, unless you're not carrying a Neut, because you can simply warp away. An Ishtar and an Inty, is a deadly combination to a single BS. When two people gang up on one, there's a very good chance you're going to die, unless you're at a gate, you just jump out. If you're in a belt ratting, well... you're in deep crap at this point. You have a gang, using ships designed for skirmish warfare, vs. a ship that's designed for sieging or fleet warfare. You've missed your opportunity to leave when they entered local, and you have no backup. It's your achilles heel, you have no reinforcements, and you should know that you're going to die at this point. You learn your lesson, you plan more carefully in your fittings, pay more attention to who's around, and make sure you have friends around to save each others arses. Of course you can continue to be a nub if you choose not to follow the advice above. [Edit:] As for whether or not nano ships should be capped in speed, or should be nerfed, or any of that type of talk; fly one first, do combat with one, and learn your enemy instead of being ingorant to it. A nano *anything* is a pretty weak opponent, especially in a drone boat. Once you've understood the game mechanics through experience, you'll realize there's a counter to everything, so long as you have the right tools. The right tools would include ships, mods, drones, missile types, anything in the long list of skills and equipment available - including a good smartbomb fitted. A good skilled Raven pilot can single salvo drones, and each drone is 1/5th the total damage done. Two drones killed and you've reduced damage taken by 2/5th's, or nearly 50% and it takes a while for a fresh drone to enter combat if the Ishtar is 40k out. ^^ This. Yeah nano's are common and a bit of a PITA to kill; but in EVE there is allways a counter to whatever tactic/fitting your opponent has. As has been said, your Ratting/Lvl4 mission running Raven is not going to fare very well against nano opponents, BUT this is not WoW, learn, adapt and FFS EVE is a multiplayer game, if you want/need to kill nano's, bring friends in ships with anti-nano fittings (and no your don't need Rapiers, they just make things easier).

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