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Piitaq
19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2008.05.22 13:50:00 -
[1]
Hi, I would like to raise the issue of can flippers.
I think griefers / pirates have it way to easy, in disturbing, annoying, destroying miners work, in hopes of provoking some PvP against the carebear miner.
I would propose the following: 1) stealing from jet cans, gives same response from CONCORD as destroying a jet can 2) secure anchorable cans get a bigger volume, maybe equal to a jet can, but at a high cost ofcourse 3) stealing from cans gives a security drop of -0.5 or maybe -1.0 in 1.0 space -0.9 in 0.9 space etc.. 4) new tech 3 or small cap industrial ship, that have a bigger cargo bay or extreme amount of hit points to structure/armor/shield.
one of the above or a combination of some sort, would be very much appreciated, and I think many carebears would concur with this.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:18:00 -
[2]
Nah, tbh, its fine.
Jet-can mining uses "jettison cans", meaning you're basically throwing away the ore you produce. Don't want to have people come along and jack it that aren't supposed to?
Use a secure can, or haul it back and forth between the station.
Goal Line Blitz, an American Football MMO |
Nicholas Barker
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:24:00 -
[3]
currently posting in a terrible thread. ---
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:41:00 -
[4]
It was stated numerous times by various CCP Devs/GMs that jetcan mining is an unintended use of a game feature and thus is not supported officialy.
You suggestion has not ground or merit. The only acceptable part is the introduction of larger secured cans. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
DOC PIC
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:55:00 -
[5]
Only one I agree with is #2 . Since CCP stated jet canning was uninteded, give those miners who cannot mine in an expanded hulk the ability to mine in a bigger can ..3900 m3 is pathetic tbh.
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:55:00 -
[6]
The single best "fix" for can flipping is simply a longer aggression timer. 15 minutes is frankly a laughable "penalty" for stealing. Extending this timer leaves all other game mechanics in place, but increases the risk for the thief to be inline with the spirit of EVE, which is supposed to be harsh. Can flippers should have to watch their backs for a decent amount of time after flipping cans rather then just dock up for 15 minutes, basically getting away scot free. For those can flippers that claim to do it for the PVP (most of them), this of course shouldn't be a problem. Only those that want to make easy money with no effort get penalized, this is EVE where everything is supposed to be risk vs reward.
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Canyon Dotmid
The Choom Gang
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Canyon Dotmid on 22/05/2008 14:59:38 jetcan thieving is amazing and wonderful, what is wrong with it?
I have enjoyed stealing from miners ever since I was jacking ore piles with a pack horse at minoc in ultima online
also, 3900m3 for a gsc is fine, it's the same size as a tier one industrial, which is about the right tradeoff for perfect safety in highsec.
L A T E R S |
Shenko Minara
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Piitaq ~words~
Aside from the derision this point of view should and does receive, you're missing the point of jatcan mining. It's an unintended feature that hasn't been programmed out since the devs have yet to come up with a viable alternative. Besides, people that aren't farmers and mine in gangs are often in different corps and share the same can. Would you sacrifice *them* so you can suck your veldspar for twelve hours a day without interruption? -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you. |
Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shenko Minara
Originally by: Piitaq ~words~
Aside from the derision this point of view should and does receive, you're missing the point of jatcan mining. It's an unintended feature that hasn't been programmed out since the devs have yet to come up with a viable alternative. Besides, people that aren't farmers and mine in gangs are often in different corps and share the same can. Would you sacrifice *them* so you can suck your veldspar for twelve hours a day without interruption?
I agree with you, but add the additional point that I think getting a hauler full of ore for free every 15 minutes with no effort or actual penalty is even more of an unintended mechanic.
And please no worthless rebuttals like "Well you should have multiple corp members protecting your one miner" and other ridiculous responses. The truth is, its free money with no penalty which is not at all inline with EVE's core gameplay.
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Shenko Minara
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Galactic Overlord
I agree with you, but add the additional point that I think getting a hauler full of ore for free every 15 minutes with no effort or actual penalty is even more of an unintended mechanic.
And please no worthless rebuttals like "Well you should have multiple corp members protecting your one miner" and other ridiculous responses. The truth is, its free money with no penalty which is not at all inline with EVE's core gameplay.
Oh well since you think it's a worthless rebuttal I guess it doesn't merit any airtime!!! If something is worth stealing then it's worth guarding, it's common sense and absolutely in line with Eve's core principles of gameplay. -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you. |
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:23:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Galactic Overlord on 22/05/2008 15:26:51 Worthless rebuttals as in answers that haven't actually had any thought put into them. Please explain the risk vs reward in can flipping, compared to all other avenues of making isk in game. Also make sure to cover how can flipping simply takes one person with a properly fit ship, same as ratting or most other things, however its proposed that a corporation waste valuable member time and resources to simply guard a miner in empire, which isn't very lucrative in the first place. And what about those that haven't joined a corp and don't wish to? You don't need these extra "guards" to make money ratting, running missions, etc. When you add in how hard it is to make money mining compared to other avenues, it makes it even more ridiculous.
The simple truth is that can flipping is broken heavily in favor of the thief, giving the miner an almost impossible window of time in which to retaliate. For the record even though it shouldn't be necessary, I'm not a carebear miner whining that can flipping needs to be stopped. If that timer were extended to any meaningful length of time then it simply means the flipper has to be more careful and actually have some risk, while also giving the "victim" more time to exact revenge. They can still flip cans to their hearts content, however they now have to worry more about potential people waiting for them meaning they will have to choose more carefully who they flip and even consider moving around various systems. The more cans they flip in a short time, the more dangerous it gets. Risk vs reward.
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Divad Ginleek
Gateway Industries House of Mercury
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:54:00 -
[12]
The fun way to deal with can flippers is to have a corp mate in a PVP fitted ::insert name of preferred ferocious killing machine here:: waiting beside you cloaked. 3 day old character in a frigate flips you can, you target and scram them while your buddy uncloaks and turns them to space dust. fastest way to turn "tough PVPers" into "whiny carebears" I know of.
One thing I'm not sure of is how "unintended" jet can mining is. Its funny that a full jetcan holds just about as much as a maxed iteron V. Seems tailor made for corp/alliance mining ops, if you ask me. Still, like everything else. if you jetcan mine in a 1.0 system by the newb station you were "born" in, with 120 people in local, your BEGGING to be flipped. find some backwater system with 1-5 people in local and have at it.
Also, to the OP, and anyone else whining about can flipping... roll a PVP alt and go do it yourself. its quite fun . Always best to see issues from both perspectives before passing judgment. ::insert witty signature here:: |
Paaaulo
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:59:00 -
[13]
CCP have said themselves jetcan mining was never intended to be done. Best way to combat ore stealing is just get a friend/alt in a hauler to pick up the ore as soon as its dropped into the can. Problem solved.
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Galactic Overlord on 22/05/2008 16:06:28
Originally by: Divad Ginleek The fun way to deal with can flippers is to have a corp mate in a PVP fitted ::insert name of preferred ferocious killing machine here:: waiting beside you cloaked. 3 day old character in a frigate flips you can, you target and scram them while your buddy uncloaks and turns them to space dust. fastest way to turn "tough PVPers" into "whiny carebears" I know of.
One thing I'm not sure of is how "unintended" jet can mining is. Its funny that a full jetcan holds just about as much as a maxed iteron V. Seems tailor made for corp/alliance mining ops, if you ask me. Still, like everything else. if you jetcan mine in a 1.0 system by the newb station you were "born" in, with 120 people in local, your BEGGING to be flipped. find some backwater system with 1-5 people in local and have at it.
Also, to the OP, and anyone else whining about can flipping... roll a PVP alt and go do it yourself. its quite fun . Always best to see issues from both perspectives before passing judgment.
However fun it may be, you can't require a miner to have one or more guards sitting around doing nothing except guarding for hours on end in case a flipper happens along. It's just not realistic. Sure maybe if they were mining something incredibly profitable, which they aren't. Telling a miner to do something else is also not a fix, and neither is mining elsewhere because that only increases the difficulty of getting your ore back to where you do manufacturing. And no matter where they go, the mechanic is still the same. I've been on both sides, which is why I see this mechanic is horribly broken. Is this going to just turn into another uselessly spammed topic where people don't actually look at the problem and just give canned responses?
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Paaaulo CCP have said themselves jetcan mining was never intended to be done. Best way to combat ore stealing is just get a friend/alt in a hauler to pick up the ore as soon as its dropped into the can. Problem solved.
How about anyone that wants to rat be required to have a friend/alt along with them otherwise they cant get any ratting done? How about we just fix a broken mechanic instead of forcing people to buy additional accounts or have to wait on gathering a group of people for something that should easily be a solo method of making isk.
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Olly210
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Galactic Overlord
Originally by: Paaaulo CCP have said themselves jetcan mining was never intended to be done. Best way to combat ore stealing is just get a friend/alt in a hauler to pick up the ore as soon as its dropped into the can. Problem solved.
How about anyone that wants to rat be required to have a friend/alt along with them otherwise they cant get any ratting done? How about we just fix a broken mechanic instead of forcing people to buy additional accounts or have to wait on gathering a group of people for something that should easily be a solo method of making isk.
its simple, if you dont want to jet your stuff, you dock every time your full. ROCKET SCIENCE
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Shenko Minara
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:17:00 -
[17]
If what you are mining is valuable enough to be stolen, it is valuable enough to be guarded. It's that simple. Don't want guards? Fine, take the risk. There's your risk vs. reward.
And you can't compare ratting against mining, it's apples and oranges. You also can't include production, or invention, or exploration, or scamming, or market trading in your comparison. -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you. |
Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Olly210
Originally by: Galactic Overlord
Originally by: Paaaulo CCP have said themselves jetcan mining was never intended to be done. Best way to combat ore stealing is just get a friend/alt in a hauler to pick up the ore as soon as its dropped into the can. Problem solved.
How about anyone that wants to rat be required to have a friend/alt along with them otherwise they cant get any ratting done? How about we just fix a broken mechanic instead of forcing people to buy additional accounts or have to wait on gathering a group of people for something that should easily be a solo method of making isk.
its simple, if you dont want to jet your stuff, you dock every time your full. ROCKET SCIENCE
This is true, however also a ridiculous requirement. Might as well force people to dock up after ratting x amount of rats. It's an unnecessary requirement.
How about instead of dropping canned responses, someone actually points out a flaw in the increased aggression timer?
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Zaporozh
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:22:00 -
[19]
Didnt realize can flipping was such an issue. I've been mining for almost 3 years in this game without one can flipped. I think some people need to explore a bit and move out of those crazy populated systems : )
{Glauxian Data Centre}
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shenko Minara If what you are mining is valuable enough to be stolen, it is valuable enough to be guarded. It's that simple. Don't want guards? Fine, take the risk. There's your risk vs. reward.
And you can't compare ratting against mining, it's apples and oranges. You also can't include production, or invention, or exploration, or scamming, or market trading in your comparison.
You can compare isk made per hour, and that places mining squarely at the bottom by a long shot. Which I'd think everyone would want changed because this means lower costs for everything. Imagine a world where t2 ships actually don't *****your wallet because you can't fully insure the cost of them. How that for a broken game mechanic?
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zaporozh Didnt realize can flipping was such an issue. I've been mining for almost 3 years in this game without one can flipped. I think some people need to explore a bit and move out of those crazy populated systems : )
I actually don't have any problems with can flippers since I haven't mined in highsec in forever. However this doesn't change the fact that I can objectively see it's an issue. I've seen can flipping happening nonstop all over EVE and whether or not you haven't seen it doesn't make it nonexistent.
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Piitaq
19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:27:00 -
[22]
"Use a secure can, or haul it back and forth between the station."
The secure cans are very small, and needs to be placed with a certain distance between eachoter, making it very time consuming = not worth it. Hauling back and forth in the mining barge is called ninja mining I believe (correct me if I understood the term wrong) and its also very time consuming = not really worth it.
"You suggestion has not ground or merit. The only acceptable part is the introduction of larger secured cans."
So be it, I would find it acceptable with secure anchorable cans, with equal size of a jet can.
"The single best "fix" for can flipping is simply a longer aggression timer. 15 minutes is frankly a laughable "penalty" for stealing."
Unfortunately Im not a big PvP¦er, so Im not really able to retaliate to a pirate who may or may not have an entire gang sitting on a planet ready to warp to 0 and gank me. (That actually happened once I tried to step up, and undocked in a Thorax trying to give the griefer a fair 1 Vs 1 fight) you could say I should grow some teeth, and at the end of the day you might be right!
"3900m3 for a gsc is fine, it's the same size as a tier one industrial, which is about the right tradeoff for perfect safety in highsec."
3900 m3 is close to nothing in ISKs (veld, scord, pyro and even kernite) perfect safety? many miners have been ganked, before CONCORD can respond (www.jihadswarm.com) Then I would like to ask you this: What about the mission runners in high sec space, they have the same "perfect safety" and can run level 4 missions, earning LOADS of isks, if this should be balanced lvl 3 and lvl 4 missions should be moved to low sec as I see it, if they should be equally nerfed.
"Would you sacrifice *them* so you can suck your veldspar for twelve hours a day without interruption?"
Ofcourse not! people in gangs should be able to share a can, if that is not possible as of now (I dont know) then maybe some system like the password, when entering a POS of another corporation, could come to a use.
" I agree with you, but add the additional point that I think getting a hauler full of ore for free every 15 minutes with no effort "
I think miners do put effort into it, when mining I need to change crystals for different ORE types, lock new targets when ORE depleads. Move ship when asteroids is out of range, haul ORE to station, refine ORE, haul minerals to destination and sell / produce. It does take time and effort, just as much as grinding missions or even more. I have no problem with that thou, my problem is a thief / pirate / griefer can with NO EFFORT mess up hours of my work. (Sorry if I cut / paste your text out of context)
" If something is worth stealing then it's worth guarding, it's common sense and absolutely in line with Eve's core principles of gameplay."
Not many PvP pilots like to guard carebears mining, I mean sitting in a belt doing nothing for hours, isnt the PvPers adrenaline kick, if you know what I mean. Also the ISKs generated by mining, cant really pay a security detail in high sec.
" What Galactic Overlord said"
I agree with you, that mining in the solo form isnt viable. I think it should be for noobs and hardcore carebears, in maybe 1.0-0.9 sec systems (lousy ores). If not then people will just do missions as it is more viable ISK/hour. Then the empire supply of minerals will be more or less exclusive for thoose who load their mining macro program. Because minerals are needed and in great demand...
Im not whining or nothing, I just feel there is an unbalance, I have access to some of the best ores in EVE and major mining operations, but inbetween theese OPs I like to do some solo mining. I know this is a multiplayer game, so solo mining is maybe never intended (even if some people find it fun)
Last but not least, thank you all for replying and sorry for the wall of text
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fux lol
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:35:00 -
[23]
wow, because the thing we really need is to make it totally impossible for new pvp'ers to get any action.. yay
If you mining folk want protection, do what everybody else in the game does when they need it (not forum whine) and join a corp that can help you.. the CSM isnt a tool to make it easier to make teh isk.
Bah.. i should not log onto the forums.. isk *****s make me horny for bear meat..
infact... you SIR.. it's because of YOU that im going to gank and flip miners as much as possible for the next 2-3 weeks.
Sleep well Sir..
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:40:00 -
[24]
Once again what about an increased aggression timer? Nobody wants to touch this because it actually makes sense or what? I know its more fun to make fun of miners and all.
I feel the need to explicitly state for those that aren't actually reading, this increased aggression timer would be to motivate miners to retaliate. It's in no way protection for miners, it simply adds more risk to completely risk-free isk making.
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Piitaq
19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: fux lol wow, because the thing we really need is to make it totally impossible for new pvp'ers to get any action.. yay
I never understood people calling it PvP to engage a mining barge or an industrial ship. But maybe its just me. If I was into PvPing Id war dec another PvP corp, or go scout the low sec areas + Now with FW coming loads of good PvP will be available with target rich systems. Dont see this problem...
Quote: If you mining folk want protection, do what everybody else in the game does when they need it (not forum whine) and join a corp that can help you.. the CSM isnt a tool to make it easier to make teh isk.
Im in a corp, and I got plenty of security when working with the corp. It just dont operate in empire, which I do from time to time, and yes thats my own fault / problem.
Quote: Bah.. i should not log onto the forums.. isk *****s make me horny for bear meat..
infact... you SIR.. it's because of YOU that im going to gank and flip miners as much as possible for the next 2-3 weeks.
Sleep well Sir..
Yes its ofcourse also easier to gank a miner, than a real WT, but your welcome. I guess CCP even endorse you to do this, its good for the new player experience you know. So I would advice you to go into a starter system, with one of the NPC stations with brand new people. They dont know the rules of engagement, and sometimes fire at you when you flip the can "flashing red" = easy kill.
But I can tell you this, the loot drops sucks maybe some sort of bounty like ratting should be implemented?
And I sleep well at night, even when some low life stole my 1000 veld
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:58:00 -
[26]
No, no, a thousand times no. If you want to jetcan mine, you take the risks of doing so upon yourself. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Shenko Minara
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:04:00 -
[27]
If you really want to compare ratting to mining on ISK income, then how about this? I have a high-skilled hulk alt and occaisionally mine arkonor with it and can pull in about 60mil ISK per hour. I can do more with a mind-linked gangboss in system as well. Also, I don't get can-flipped because it's out in the ass-end of 0.0.
You mine in high-sec and struggle to push your income into the millions per hour and you get hassled by can-flippers.
It's not a broken system per-se, it's just a linear scale of reward and you aren't putting in the effort.
-- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you. |
Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shenko Minara If you really want to compare ratting to mining on ISK income, then how about this? I have a high-skilled hulk alt and occaisionally mine arkonor with it and can pull in about 60mil ISK per hour. I can do more with a mind-linked gangboss in system as well. Also, I don't get can-flipped because it's out in the ass-end of 0.0.
You mine in high-sec and struggle to push your income into the millions per hour and you get hassled by can-flippers.
It's not a broken system per-se, it's just a linear scale of reward and you aren't putting in the effort.
Let's leave this comparison to empire only, since can flippers only work in empire. We can reduce it even more to highsec only since thats where the flippers work almost 90% of the time. Why? Because there's no risk. Now consider how horrible your income is from mining in highsec while adding in the fact that you can mine for an hour and lose it all in a second to someone that has taken no risk. So far pretty much every response requires something else to be added to the equation. The last line in your response is completely laughable because its the flippers that are putting in no effort and getting an amazing scale of reward FOR FREE. No special training, no actual PVP ability, its just free free free. They need some risk.
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Paaaulo
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Galactic Overlord
Originally by: Paaaulo CCP have said themselves jetcan mining was never intended to be done. Best way to combat ore stealing is just get a friend/alt in a hauler to pick up the ore as soon as its dropped into the can. Problem solved.
How about anyone that wants to rat be required to have a friend/alt along with them otherwise they cant get any ratting done? How about we just fix a broken mechanic instead of forcing people to buy additional accounts or have to wait on gathering a group of people for something that should easily be a solo method of making isk.
Its not a broken mechanic if jet can mining was never intended.
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Galactic Overlord
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Paaaulo Its not a broken mechanic if jet can mining was never intended.
So let's imagine an EVE where nobody jetcan mines. Let's imagine what ship/module supplies would be like as well as prices. Not let's get back to reality and once again someone tell me what's wrong with increasing the aggression timer. Everyone wants to protect the guy making money for free without reward. Why is that? I know carebears tend to whine nonstop and want it all their way and we are mostly sick of it. But that's not what I'm suggesting here, I'm promoting PVP for those carebears and no more free lunch for the sad people that think they are actually PVPing. This isn't even pirating, its pathetic.
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