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[Issue] The whole CSM thing should be quietly dropped

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Berious Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:21:00 - [1] It wasn't necessarily a terrible idea but we're only one day after the elections and already the chair and another council member are bickering over the minutiae of rules and generally throwing their weight around in a very unconstructive manner. It's CAOD mk2 - and we all know how much intellegent debate comes out of that forum. I don't think individuals are going to be able to put their differences aside and represent concerns of the player base in such a bitter atmosphere. Entertaining to watch perhaps, but if CCP are planning to take the CSM seriously then that could mean trouble. In it's place I suggest an ideas box of sorts, we could even use this forum. Then just put the most popular ideas/concerns to subscribers en mass with the voting system we just used for the elections. Either that or just collect feedback as CCP always has which seems to have worked out more or less OK so far.
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:22:00 - [2] I vote no, for now, because I want to give it a chance at least. The outcome of all these petitions and votes is, well, obvious. If CCP makes good, then the CSM will be a good thing. If they don't, then it's a joke. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:32:00 - [3] Who is Jade bickering with now? Link? Also, you're way too quick to declare defeat. I'm going to at least wait to see what they bring forward to CCP - we've needed some way of streamlining the forum whine system for ages, and this seems like the best going. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Tolis Irithel Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:35:00 - [4] No support for this one. CSM should definitely not be ruled out so early; I'm fairly sure that a degree of the fractiousness comes from uncertainty. The first CSM should give a good guide as to whether the system can function, and in order for it to benefit the community, it should have our support.
Ishina Fel Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:37:00 - [5] Only identified mains should be able to make proposal threads. Works relatively well on CAOD, at least... unidintified alts post, but get moderated out. Oh, and: No. Go away.
Haakelen United Forces	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:41:00 - [6] Edited by: Haakelen on 22/05/2008 19:42:07 Originally by: Ishina Fel Oh, and: No. Go away. We don't need people trying to sink it from the beginning, without anything being done yet.
Berious Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:42:00 - [7] I'm not an alt ok just barely post so forgot to turn my "Real opinion inc" buttons on. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Who is Jade bickering with now? Link? Last few pages of his campaign thread and in a couple of other places.
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Berious already the chair and another council member are bickering over the minutiae of rules AKA politics, AKA 'hashing out ideas...' I have to ask you first: did you vote? Don't care whom for, but did you at all? Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
Berious Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:41:00 - [9] Edited by: Berious on 22/05/2008 20:41:54 Originally by: Bad Harlequin Originally by: Berious already the chair and another council member are bickering over the minutiae of rules AKA politics, AKA 'hashing out ideas...' I have to ask you first: did you vote? Don't care whom for, but did you at all? I did as it happens. Didn't expect it to turn into a facsimile of Prime Minsters Question's before they even started discussing any substantive issues however. If the CSMs can't even play nice with nothing at stake then Huston we have a problem! Either CCP will pay a bit of lip service to the whole project and we're wasting our time here, or, more worryingly, they'll really see it as some sort of filter for interaction with the subscribers and we're up the proverbial creek as our representatives argue bitterly over what biscuits to serve at council meetings.
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:46:00 - [10] Ok, then: i don't mean to be harsh but stay with me - you think it should be dropped because you don't think the ideas currently being discussed are important? If you think about it a sec, that's a dangerous precedent: what happens when something you care about, or think is important to clear the air on, is discussed, and a hundred players post saying "screw this, it's pointless, drop the whole thing?" Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
Berious Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.05.22 21:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Bad Harlequin Ok, then: i don't mean to be harsh but stay with me - you think it should be dropped because you don't think the ideas currently being discussed are important? If you think about it a sec, that's a dangerous precedent: what happens when something you care about, or think is important to clear the air on, is discussed, and a hundred players post saying "screw this, it's pointless, drop the whole thing?" I get where you're coming from, but my point was there isn't any substantive stuff on the table yet and it's already coming to blows. If they can't amicably arrange who gets the comfy leather chair and what are we getting for take-out then what chance do issues that could conceivably effect us in-game have? If the kids can't play nice, get 'em out of the sandbox!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 21:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Berious Originally by: Bad Harlequin Ok, then: i don't mean to be harsh but stay with me - you think it should be dropped because you don't think the ideas currently being discussed are important? If you think about it a sec, that's a dangerous precedent: what happens when something you care about, or think is important to clear the air on, is discussed, and a hundred players post saying "screw this, it's pointless, drop the whole thing?" I get where you're coming from, but my point was there isn't any substantive stuff on the table yet and it's already coming to blows. If they can't amicably arrange who gets the comfy leather chair and what are we getting for take-out then what chance do issues that could conceivably effect us in-game have? If the kids can't play nice, get 'em out of the sandbox! There are issues and up/down votes. You don't have to like someone to do that. The rules are established and aren't open for negotiation, so that's not really an issue. We're going to have differing opinions on things. That's the point of having a diverse council.
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.23 01:43:00 - [13] CSM is not CAOD mark 2. If you look at the topics in this section of the forum they are real issues being address and everyone gets a vote. I do not support this as I think CSM should be given a chance to see if it helps the game. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Athre The HIgher Standard	Posted - 2008.05.23 03:49:00 - [14] I do not support this. I would like to see the CSM be given a chance to iron things out. If need be the vice chair can tell anyone (chair or not) to knock it off.
Why'dyou HitMe Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 06:15:00 - [15] I do not support this.
Lord XSiV Digital Research - Omega Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.23 08:48:00 - [16] Scrap it. Waste of money that can be better used elsewhere.
Sariyah HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.23 08:55:00 - [17] Crap thread. We'll see what CSM will bring, I think it's quite a unique idea and credit goes to CCP for it. If only for its marketing value, it's already a good thing. Still waiting to see this on news
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.24 14:22:00 - [18] Originally by: Berious Didn't expect it to turn into a facsimile of Prime Minsters Question's before they even started discussing any substantive issues however. If the CSMs can't even play nice with nothing at stake then Huston we have a problem! Well speaking personally I <3 PMQs, but I don't agree with you here. The way CCP has set up and defined the CSM is not all that details. There are a few specifics (how the Chair gets chosen, for example) but not a lot else. This incarnation of the CSM will, therefore, take upon itself to find a mechanism to MAKE THE CSM WORK and that requires discussion! If everyone agreed 100% on something then, sfaiac, that is likely to lead to a bad decision as, clearly, something wouldn't have been considered properly. There will be to-ing and fro-ing while we discuss how we believe the best way to go about things should be. And we'll ask others for their opinions in reaching those decisions too. You can't fly a half-built ship, so don't complain about a CSM still finding its way in the universe yet either. IZ My principles
Great Emrys Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.24 14:32:00 - [19] No support for this one, as I think they deserve a chance to get it right, even if they screw it up one or even two times...
Krypt Angel Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.05.24 17:35:00 - [20] While I will admit I'm still a little skeptical as to how well the whole CSM idea will play out it is FAR too early to be declared an all out failure. Bickering is to be expected I mean the members are after all...only human. Every elected group is gonna have its growing pains in the beginning. That said I see no reason to euthanize the beast before it has been given a chance to prove it can serve its purpose.....2-3 days is not nearly enough time for such a judgment call
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:17:00 - [21] At least give it 18 months. Right now not even the elected CSM members have a full grasp yet of what the CSM is supposed to do. If after 3 visits to Iceland it still doesn't benefit all of us, you'll have my vote .
Midas Man Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:46:00 - [22] No support for this. Its healthy for a council to bicker and argue, its difficult to see both sides of an arguement and make constructive movements forward if everyone is nodding in agreement. If there is no argueing in a council then it is either the council of a perfect world or the council of a dictator and the perfect world scenario doesn't exist.
Kingwood Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:28:00 - [23] /signed
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.27 19:11:00 - [24] It is early days and will take a litle while to work things out, give it a bit of time to see how things work out, they are bound to be a little bit rocky in the beginning
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:59:00 - [25] Edited by: Dionisius on 27/05/2008 20:59:55 Lets see, most people are saying " Well lets give it a chance", now really what will change with CSP ? Nothing. Why nothing? Simple, most of the votes were based on, " I like this guy because he is cool" , or " I like this guy because i know him from a spaceships game ". These are not reasons to vote on anyone and lets face it, most of the people voting don't even have a clue on whats involved. The suposed council has the objective to make EvE better, or better, kinda filter the requests from the comunity and take them towards the Devs of EVE and CCP. Now, what will these people represent? The players? The will to solve problems? Surely not, if CCP is already implementing new stuff and is currently in testing stage , aka. Empyrean Age, what will these persons do? What power do they have to actually bring some changes for the better? The answer is No, No, Nothing and No. No they won't ask anything that wasn't already reasonable and asked before. No the power of actually doing stuff does not reside in 9 people that are part of the gaming comunity but in the Devs and other managers of the CCP team. The best example for that for instance was, the NOS nerf, were CCP observed the threads and chose the most balance solution for all, it came naturally and from the requests of the players. Other example, the speed nerf, the dampener balancing. Or we can observe the Carrier case were the comunity voice was heard loud and clear, and even between the " this suckzors" , "CCP suckzorz" posts, there were actuall people replying with good options. There is even a new features forum part and ideias discussion, all that CCP has to keep doing is looking at those forum sections and take notes. There is no need for 9 muppets to travel to Iceland and come back to the land of the living to tell us mortals that " HAI gaizzz, i was in CCPLAND and it was all peachy, they work wonders and are the best, we discussed blablabla with tea and cookies, and they promised they will do yadda-yadda-yadda." Kinda like, wakey wakey people, CCP isn't perfect, but then again, there is no such thing as perfection, only room for improvement. In my opinion this council isn't an improvement, its giving way to unfairness and lack of equallity between players. And just reinforcing that is the coment that Jade left in another thread and i quote, Originally by: Jade Constantine the last thread on this subject got -1 support. Perhaps you should go and register your support there rather than messing up the forum with duplicate posts? (reporting this as spam) Have a nice day." Who are you Jade to classify someone else's opinion has spam and posting that kind of giberish? Isn't the council supposed to be here to HELP players? Yeh council of stellar management... _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.27 22:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Dionisius Simple, most of the votes were based on, " I like this guy because he is cool" , or " I like this guy because i know him from a spaceships game ". These are not reasons to vote on anyone and lets face it, most of the people voting don't even have a clue on whats involved. So is that supposed to be better or worse than voting for Obama because you like his voice, Clinton because you like her ovaries, or McCain because you like his ability to take a bayonet to the groin? None of those are relevant in any way, and yet millions of people will vote based on them this year. Originally by: Dionisius The suposed council has the objective to make EvE better, or better, kinda filter the requests from the comunity and take them towards the Devs of EVE and CCP. Now, what will these people represent? The players? The will to solve problems? Surely not, if CCP is already implementing new stuff and is currently in testing stage , aka. Empyrean Age, what will these persons do? What power do they have to actually bring some changes for the better? The answer is No, No, Nothing and No. No they won't ask anything that wasn't already reasonable and asked before. No the power of actually doing stuff does not reside in 9 people that are part of the gaming comunity but in the Devs and other managers of the CCP team. The best example for that for instance was, the NOS nerf, were CCP observed the threads and chose the most balance solution for all, it came naturally and from the requests of the players. Other example, the speed nerf, the dampener balancing. Or we can observe the Carrier case were the comunity voice was heard loud and clear, and even between the " this suckzors" , "CCP suckzorz" posts, there were actuall people replying with good options. There is even a new features forum part and ideias discussion, all that CCP has to keep doing is looking at those forum sections and take notes. You know the funny thing about whine threads? They're made by the whiny. CCP wanted a better way of gaging the actual positions of the players, instead of just the positions of the vocal 1%. It may not get new people into the forums, but the people who voted will presumably have voted for people whose platforms they liked, and as such can be trusted to speak, however roughly, for those non-forum-using voters. Originally by: Dionisius There is no need for 9 muppets to travel to Iceland and come back to the land of the living to tell us mortals that " HAI gaizzz, i was in CCPLAND and it was all peachy, they work wonders and are the best, we discussed blablabla with tea and cookies, and they promised they will do yadda-yadda-yadda." Kinda like, wakey wakey people, CCP isn't perfect, but then again, there is no such thing as perfection, only room for improvement. In my opinion this council isn't an improvement, its giving way to unfairness and lack of equallity between players. Looking at the 9 of them, I doubt they'll be impressed by a plane ticket and some geothermal power. If they come back sounding like brainwashed automatons(or, worse yet, with Jade and Darius agreeing), I'll take your point, but until then I think you're overblowing this dramatically. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.05.28 00:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto They're made by the whiny. CCP wanted a better way of gaging the actual positions of the players, instead of just the positions of the vocal 1%. It may not get new people into the forums, but the people who voted will presumably have voted for people whose platforms they liked, and as such can be trusted to speak, however roughly, for those non-forum-using voters. A group of people voted in by about 10%(?) of the userbase can hardly be said to speak for "the silent majority".
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 00:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto They're made by the whiny. CCP wanted a better way of gaging the actual positions of the players, instead of just the positions of the vocal 1%. It may not get new people into the forums, but the people who voted will presumably have voted for people whose platforms they liked, and as such can be trusted to speak, however roughly, for those non-forum-using voters. A group of people voted in by about 10%(?) of the userbase can hardly be said to speak for "the silent majority". About 11% of the user base, which is probably more like 15% of eligible voters. It's still far better than the >1% that talk about this stuff on the forums. And frankly, I'm a bit of a believer that if you don't vote in a democratic process, you clearly don't much care about the results, and can thus be safely ignored. The ones who wanted a say have had it, and by a means far less opaque than forum whining. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.05.28 09:30:00 - [29] Edited by: Dionisius on 28/05/2008 09:33:56 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Dionisius (...) So is that supposed to be better or worse than voting for Obama because you like his voice, Clinton because you like her ovaries, or McCain because you like his ability to take a bayonet to the groin? None of those are relevant in any way, and yet millions of people will vote based on them this year. It is relevant in the way people need to know what they are voting for and what powers they are granting to 9 people. In most cases people are voting just because its " a cool guy " or "their alliance leader ". Now in a council that is supposed to help develop and introduce new ideias and features to a game that sound a tad counter productive as people can , and will be, easely manipulated. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Dionisius You know the funny thing about whine threads? They're made by the whiny. CCP wanted a better way of gaging the actual positions of the players, instead of just the positions of the vocal 1%. It may not get new people into the forums, but the people who voted will presumably have voted for people whose platforms they liked, and as such can be trusted to speak, however roughly, for those non-forum-using voters. The vocal 1%, dude are you serious? The vocal 1% turned into more than half the carrier pilots of the game getting "vocal" when CCP sugested the dismemberment of that ship. There was no need for someone to speak for the players either when the NOS and Dampener balance was introduced also and yet sensible reasoning came out of that said 1% as the ideia for it came from the players. That is reason enough not to empower people that have biased views on what issues they will pick up, how they will handle them, or not, and to resume to those sections of these forum that have actuall content by people that are giving new ideias everyday. CCP staff doesn't seem ileterate or dumb to follow the whines because so far they have been able to filter trough peoples ideias with relative success. CCP always brags that they are taking notes so this is more of a " ditch the notepad and shut those guys up " action above all things. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Dionisius (...) Looking at the 9 of them, I doubt they'll be impressed by a plane ticket and some geothermal power. If they come back sounding like brainwashed automatons(or, worse yet, with Jade and Darius agreeing), I'll take your point, but until then I think you're overblowing this dramatically. Lol you really believe that these 9 people are in it to help and voice the concerns of the players? Have you not looked around in the game? lol. The only way for CCP to improve in these matters is to employ and train better GMs and dissociate partly them and the Dev team from the playerbase. I don't even need to dig that much up to go back and bring some screweups that this way of conducting the game brought out. _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.28 10:11:00 - [30] I agree! Drop the CSM. I think CCP is capable of running EVE to the ground all on their own. we are recruiting!

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