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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Yorda on 24/05/2008 18:15:42
First off, the nidhoggur and hel on their own are pretty decent but the whole design of minmatar capitals is completely crap. Lets start by taking a look at training requirements of all capitals, and especially the dreadnaughts.
They all require the same basic skills to get into, but when it comes to the fitting minmatar gets screwed.
Amarr capitals: All capitals armor tank, dreads need Large energy wep V, cap skills need to be focused on.
Caldari capitals: All capitals shield tank, dreads need torps V.
Gallente capitals: All capitals armor tank, dreads need Large hybrid wep V, drone skills need to be focused on.
Minmatar capitals: Dreadnaughts and supercaps are shield tanked while the nidhoggur is primarily armor tanked, dreads need torps V and large projectile V.
For most races, training for a carrier and then a dread is easy but for minmatar it literally takes months extra to get both while the skills used rarely help with non-capital ships. Dreads and carriers get severly screwed when it comes to the actual cpu/pg and slots.
The Naglfar:
In order to compete, the Naglfar needs to spend four of it's low slots on damage modules leaving it with a 5 slot shield tank. Unfortunatly it cannot target to sniping range without a sensor booster, so it is left with a 4 slot shield tank. This leaves it with the weakest tank and lowest effective hp of the four dreads. On top of this, it needs two co-processors to fit everything.
Even after spending four low slots on damage mods, and comparing the four dreads with all skills at level 5 (which is a lot harder for a naglfar because you need both missile skills and gunnery skills at V) the naglfar has the second lowest damage, barely out damaging the phoenix but coming no where near the phoenix's insane alpha.
This makes absolutely no sense. You have the weakest tank, the hardest training requirements, the hardest fitting requirements (needing two fitting mods while none of the other dreads require this), spend four slots on damage mods, and you end up with the flimsiest dreadnaught doing pitiful damage.
The Nidhoggur:
Even after its change to the same slot layout as the thanatos, it has 31 less cpu, 160000 less pg, 10000 less capacitor (although the regen is faster), 50000 less effective hp, and 1000 less dronebay than the thanatos. It is also the only carrier who has a different tank from the race's mothership.
Fitting both the nidhoggur and thanatos exactly the same the nidhoggur ends up doing significantly less damage, has a lot less effective hp, has less total capacitor, but can remote rep a lot better. The nidhoggurs only saving grace is that it can rep pos's faster and is marginally more useful in spider tanking.
As you can see, minmatar capitals in general need a good review. Their training time is rediculous in comparison to other races, and you get little to no benefit from it. I propose a few things:
Naglfar:
- Cpu boost
2 extra mid slots, one less low slot
A complete shift to projectile only weapons, OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both
Nidhoggur:
- CPU and pg boost
1 extra mid slots
Capacitor boost (the only thing it's good at is remote repping, give it the capacitor to do so)
Increase the bonus from the ship so that it's boosting potential is a lot higher
tl;dr Fix the naglfar and nidhoggur.
EDIT: The sig bonus on the Ragnarok is pretty terrible too.
 Originally by: nlewis
jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.24 18:13:00 -
[2]
I could of sworn I clicked the support box...
Originally by: nlewis
jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.25 03:43:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
As for the Ragnarok, yeah, its fleet bonus is really lame. Maybe if it was 15% per level? I dunno. I'd suggest a speed/mass bonus, but speed is one thing this game hardly needs more of until they come up with a better counter than the ones that exist as of now. You could also do something really crazy like a flat fleet ROF bonus(say, 2% per level), but that might get a little overpowered. But the current bonus sucks.
I'd like to see an agility bonus instead. It's not too overpowered (like a mass reduction would be) but it's also got it's purpose for all ships. Smaller ships have more of a transversal, capitals and plated bses can align and warp faster, and it's not too strong or too weak.
Originally by: nlewis
jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.27 00:33:00 -
[4]
I wonder if this would have been recieved differently if I had posted it on an alt.
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Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.28 03:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: RoCkEt X
minmatar have always needed a large variety of skills to fly, its like saying they should fix it becuase the phoon needs armor skills, and drone skills - and the maelstrom needs gun and shield skills. its just the way minmatar has always been - its not just the caps.
That's fine, but with faction damage mods (4 on a nag, 2 on the other dreads) and all skills level V the naglfar does allmost 20% less damage (close to 1000 less dps). It just doesn't make sense that it has the weakest tank, second lowest dps, lowest alpha, and takes the longest to train for.
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Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.28 19:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jacque Custeau
Minmatar ships generally have less capacitor and tanking abilities than the other races, but this has always been justified by projectiles not needing any cap and superior agility and speed.
In the case of the Nidhoggur and the Hel, there are no projectile guns, and the speed is pathetic. CCP should either make all carriers have the same cap (they already all have the same number of high slots) or reduce the mass of those ships to 10% of their current value so they can nano like other matari ships.
IIRC the hel and the nidhoggur have a shorter align time and are a bit faster than other motherships / carriers, but you cant really nano them because the entire strength of the carrier / mothership is the remote rep circlejerk to stay alive in large fights. Nano's would kill your effective hp and tankable damage, it's just not an alternative.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.29 20:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: RobbehT
/Signed Well put together post about the minmatar capital problems, only thing going for them is how sexy they look! but on that note, bring back the sharks teeth on the niddy!!
I love the way the hel looks, wish all the motherships where a bit bigger though. Like in the cinematic trailer for trinity it showed the hell in the middle of the huge fleet and that thing looked like the size of a titan, in game it's only a bit bigger than the nidhoggur though.
Also never really liked the way the naglfar looked.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.31 21:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Stefan F
Edited by: Stefan F on 31/05/2008 18:45:07
Bull****.
Minnie gets great small ships for pvp and sucky large ones
Amarr gets sucky small ships for pvp and great large ones.
You should have trained amarr now go whine somewhere else please.
Um... amarr interceptors are fine, the sac and zealot are awsome, the curse is okay, the interdictor is fine for bubbling, their battleships are awsome, and their commandships/battlecruisers are okay. I really dont see these "sucky small ships".
Everything above cruisers for minmatar arn't even worth training.
I'd love for some CSM support for minmatar capitals.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.31 22:18:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Yorda on 31/05/2008 22:18:33
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
So Amarrian HACs, BC's, CSes, BBs, and capitals are good, but nothing below that rates better than a "fine"(and one of those fines is for a dictor being able to bubble)? I think you just proved his point.
Also, I'm rather a fan of the Sleip and the Mael - I don't fly Minmatar, but they looks really sweet on EFT, and my Min-flying buddies agree. That said, the capitals are definitely crap.
All AFs suck, destroyers for all races are terrible, t1 frigs are basically the same, the new omen is a decent t1 cruiser, the pilgrim is terrible but I wouldn't say amarr has it so much worse than minmatar that it deserves it's capitals to be vastly better than minmatar's.
The Sleip is one of those ships that you have to put a decent amount of money down on to make good, and is only really good in very small fights. The Mael is an okay PvE ship but I'd take a tempest over it in most PvP fights.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 13:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I didn't say Amarr deserved to have pwnmobile capitals while Minmatar got crap. I agree, there's some rebalancing needed there - I did support this thread, after all. I'm just saying, from what I can tell, the Minmatar are very good at subcapital fighting.
As for the Sleip and Mael, yeah, they're not for all situations, though I think you're a bit quick to write off the Mael for PvP. But the raw numbers they put out are terrifying.
As a Min BS V pilot, the mael does something like 6-7% more damage than the tempest. It's just not worth justifying the loss of 2 utility highslots and a 50mil price mark up. I could see it a bit better for small gangs where you might be able to tank better, but most the time small gangs are more nano friendly (another reason why everyone loves minmatar, especially with the rapier and huginn) and there isn't much place for a slow battleship.
I really think projectile guns in general could use a bit of a boost too, but even with that the naglfar would still need a significant change to make it a worthwhile dread.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 00:56:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Yorda on 03/06/2008 01:05:19
Originally by: Jeats Cheats
I like these proposed changes
After thinking about it for a bit, I dont think the nidhoggur changes will change it to be a better shield tank than armor tank. It will however give it better cap regen, the nidhoggur doesn't really need as big a boost than the naglfar and without significant changes to cap recharges / CPRs vs. PDS it probably wont ever be shield tanked.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 13:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Just a quick question.
The op states that the Nag needs to use 4 damage mods to compete with the other Dreads
How can this be when the Nag starts with 33% more firepower than other dreads due to 4 weapons instead of 3 ?
Assuming tech II modules.
With todays stacking penalties 3 bcu on a phoenix would only give a total damage modifier of 1.57
3 weapons * 1.57 = 4.71
Compared to a nagflar with 1 bcu and 1 gyro
4 weapons * 1.2 = 4.8
So now you 2 extra slots for tanking whether you go shield or armor I dont know.
But do you still say the Nag needs love ?.
Plug it into EFT and take a look. There are two glaring problems with the nags split weapon bonus. First, every other dread has two bonuses for it's gun type, the nag has to one ship bonus for each of it's weapon type. Now take any of the other dreads, if they fit 2 damage mods those damage mods apply to all 3 of thier weapons. The Nag fits two damage and it either only applies to 2 of it's weapons, or each weapon only gets 1 damage mod. To get the same effect as 2 damage mods on all of it's weapons, it needs to fit 4 damage (2 for each weapon).
Also the relatively low dps of both projectile weapons and capital torps doesn't help the nag's dps.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 14:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lopin Acheteur
The naglfar does more damage than any of the other dreads at an effective POS siege range (all the others only have 4 high slots, 3 for weapons, the naglfar has 5 high slots, for 4 weapons.). You are forgetting that the Naglfar can fit close range weapons and still be effective, while blasters and pulses tend to come in under the range required to be effective in a POS siege and useless unless you are ontop of enemy capitals in a capital fight.
If you were to balance it to require just guns, you would need to remove a high slot like all the other dreads, then you could give double damage bonuses instead of the current split bonuses. There is a danger of making all the dreads too generic though, I did like the flavour the split system gave. The phoenix does the lowest damage, but it is forgiving of range. The Moros does excellent drone damage, but it can't use blasters effectively in most situations, it also has a weaker tank than the revelation. The Revelation is probably the best dread out there for sieges, not requiring you to keep pressing fire, having a good range and tanking well.
The Nidhoggur is already arguably the best carrier out there for the usual remote repping circlejerk setups that you see these days, giving it an extra mid would be unbalanced, it had one removed to give it an extra low. I personally think this was a mistake, given that there are already two armor tanking carriers, and this as you point out means training another skillset, although being minmatar you should probably be used to this. Faster regen on the Nidhoggur also suits its role as the best remote repping carrier out there, being as the cap trick doesn't really work on capital ships, it will easily out rep the other carriers, the Thanatos's damage bonus isn't hugely significant anymore (in days of assigned fighters from behind POS shields it was). With the change to an armor tank, the CPU isn't really an issue, as it isn't on the archon or thanatos.
ALL capital ships need more CPU, especially the ones that shield tank you need fitting mods on the Phoenix/Chimera still also, which for a capital ship is ridiculous. Grid as far as I'm aware is a total non issue, I've never seen anyone run out of grid on any potential capital ship fit.
There's a lot of misconceptions here that are pretty common with people who don't actually know what they're talking about. First off, just because the Naglfar has 4 turret slots doesn't mean for half a second it does more damage than any of the other dreads thanks to the reasons I mentioned in the post before this one (mainly that projectile and torp damage is low in comparison to beams / rails + crazy drone bonuses). People will never fit auto cannons on a nag because if for whatever reason you have to shoot things further away (say pos mods, or getting hot dropped) you'll be completely screwed. You could fit pulses on the revelation and get just as long range, but you'd be in the same boat. It's much better to fit long range guns and use short range ammo, switching to longer range ammo if needed. At this point, I'd be very happy with double weapon bonuses for both weapons (just take on rof and damage mod instead of just one).
Secondly, before the nidhoggur change the nidhoggur was the absolute worst carrier by far. It had a terrible shield tank and because pds suck vs. cap rechargers for cap it had terrible capacitor. In order to correct this you'd probably need to take away a low slot and add two medium slots (basically taking the previous change in the other direction) and adding a large capacitor buff to the nidhoggur. People would probably just armor tank it and use the insane mid slots for even more insane cap regen though. Oh, and you can still assign fighters and sit in poses you just nudge outside the shields, assign fighters, and go back inside. The naglfar is the ONLY CAPITAL TO REQUIRE FITTING MODS. Chimera and phoenixes use PDS for cap regen, not fitting.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 20:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/06/2008 19:40:55
Originally by: Dav Varan
I dont have access to EFT atm can you put up the dps numbers for the ranged ship setups your talking about please
Rail moros v Beam Rev v Citadel Phoenix v ( Arty/Citadel ) Nag
Long-range dreads with 3x damage mod (Naglfar with 2x BCU, 1x Gyro, best combo), closest-range ammo, Garde IIs, all skills at 5. As the Republic Fleet XL ammo has been removed from LP stores shortly after the introduction for reasons beyond me, the Naglfar and Phoenix can not use faction ammo. I added in parens the dps numbers if Moros/Rev use faction ammo.
Phoenix - 3531 dps
Naglfar - 3682 dps
Moros - 4352 dps (4848 dps)
Revelation - 4383 dps (4996 dps)
Thanks, I'm stuck at work without EFT also but IIRC with 4 (2x gyro, 2x bcu) faction damage mods and all other dreads having 2 faction damage mods the phoenix had ~3900 dps, the nag ~4100 dps, the moros ~4800 dps, and the rev ~4900 dps (This might have been with faction ammo too). Of course the phoenix had something close to 80k alpha (and the other dreads around 20k). This is with the nag having twice the number of damage mods as other ships, it just doesn't make sense. Also IIRC the effective hp of the dreads is: nag about 1-1.3mil, the pheonix 2mil+, the revelation and the moros 1.8-2mil.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Yorda on 04/06/2008 14:12:06
Edited by: Yorda on 04/06/2008 14:11:10
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Dreads:
Revelation and Moros have massive cap use. Nag uses no cap for guns. They need more cap mods than nag. Usually dread fit to be cap stable with 3 guns + 1 cap rep to avoid lag. That is a massive disadvatage for caldari.
Nags do not shield tank. For example, go to RA killboard, look up at nag losses. On the first page of dread losses, all nags are armor tanked. So all the talk about fittings is wrong.
Shield tanking needs a rank 4 100% useless skill(unlike missile skills) to be at level 5. Moros needs t2 sentry drones to make the most out of it. Hardest training times? most likely, but only slightly.
You can armor tank your Nag, but then it does even less damage than a shield tanking one (I believe it becomes on par or below the phoenix) and you have less effective hp. In any fleet battle the dreads tank is rather meaningless, you just have to hope your siege deactivates so the carriers can remote rep you up because your tank isn't going to work on more than 1 other dread. In fact if you look at RA's latest nag loss, it's 3 revelations and they only did 1.1mil damage to him.
Just because someone does it differently it doesn't make it right. If you would like I could rewrite the original post with armor tanking and apart from lowering the training time ~25days for tactical shield manipulation V the Nag would be even more ****tier. Atleast with the moros's t2 sentries you get to use that on other ships, when was the last time you used torps (which the nag requires ONTOP of capital projectiles)? A high sec gank is about all they're good for, or maybe cyno jammer takedowns.
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Ok, the minmatar capitals are not the very best of all, but they are decent. No one will ever say to a minmatar spec char to train some other race's capitals. Minor boosts to nid/nag such as bigger armor hp at the expense of shield hp or a slight increase for capital projectile(5%-10%?) is ok and understandable, but major boosts such as adding slots are not required.
As a Minmatar character through and through, and as much as I love my tempest, I would tell any newbie to stop training minmatar at cruisers and to not even bother with anything bs and above. They are outclassed and outshined by every other race in capitals and battleships. The nidhoggur/hel are okay, but they're not worth being stuck with terrible battleships/dreads/titans.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:01:00 -
[16]
OP updated with revised list of changes.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Porks
RA extensively use shield tanks for their Nags, so you're quite wrong.
One of the Naglfar's main problems is that there's quite a large difference between certain dreads, and they're at the bottom.
For example, let's compare the top and the bottom:
Revelation
2,149,645 eHP
5477 dps sustained tank (lasts ~6 minutes while firing)
6317 dps outgoing (6580 with sentries)
Very much cap stable while firing (+112/-77)
Fits with almost 30% cpu and pg free.
1700m2 sigrad
Naglfar
2,091,306 eHP
1348 dps sustained tank (10577 burst - lasts ~2mins)
4020 dps outgoing (4283 with sentries)
Requires all faction lows to fit plus a 1-3% cpu implant.
1850m2 sigrad
Note that this is with similar care to fittings: both have faction lows though only the naglfar requires it, both use faction ammo (though only 2 of the naglfar's guns can use faction ammo - there are no faction torps). Both are done using an all-5 character.
BUT I GUESS IT'S OKAY BECAUSE THE NAGLFAR CAN ALIGN A FULL 2.7 SECONDS FASTER WOOTAH MINMATAR AGILITY (30.4s/27.7s)
What setups where you using? I plugged in the standard goon fitting for the nag and it had 1-1.3mil eHP. Also I think my revelation setup is out of date.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.06 20:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst
Signing this even though I'm dumb enough to train for minnie caps anyway
:hifive: dumb enough to train for minmatar caps buddy.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.07 18:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: GeneralNukeEm
CONSPIRACY - Goons have more prospective minmatar capital pilots than those of any other race, c/d
But yes minnie caps suck
Actually, RA have a ton of naglfars for whatever reason.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.08 23:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
When I buy new characters, I expect them to have BS V trained, in case I want to take them to capitals. I wish I realized what a stupid idea that is when it comes to minmatar pilots :P
Nidhoggurs arn't that terrible, especially when most carriers just sit on the edge of pos shields and assign fighters.
I wouldn't bother with anything else larger than a sleipnir though.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 04:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zareph
Absolutely, right now if you're a Minnie it makes better sense to stop at BS4 and then go start Amarr or something. Almost take less time.
It makes more sense to stop at BS0.
Originally by: Domania
I'll agree with the fact the Nidhoggur needs it's bonus boosted. A 5% less cap need wouldn't make me happy. I love the fact that I can remote boost more than any carrier on the field allowing people needing reps a better chance of living on the field. I would rather see the 5% be turned to a 10%. It's support role would be so much better.
What would be your suggestion for the Hel?
The Hel has the same basic problem as the nidhoggur: it's ship bonus is pretty weak. It needs a stronger bonus or some sort of capacitor bonus.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 14:18:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Yorda on 13/06/2008 14:18:37
Originally by: Orb Lati
So we all agree that the Naglfa is terrible at the moment.
In the interest of keeping this thread active, What needs to be done to fix it?
I'm thinking it might not be the capitals that need a buff but the weapon systems them selves. If Capital Artillery and Auto cannons had a built in Gyro II buff would this mitigate their low DPS.
I would even suggest a minor buff to the damage from the Citidal Torp Launcher as well as well dependent on not over powering the Phoenix which i hear also has underwhelming damage potential.
I think a general buff of minmatar tech 1 XL / L ammo would help a lot (even S/M/ T2 Artillery ammo buff wouldn't really effect nanoships while greatly improving the BS and above that desperately need help)
I would like to see the single ship bonus per weapon type (torps and projectiles) be turned into two (basically add an ROF/damage bonus on top of the other bonus), a MAJOR CPU buff to the nag (so that it doesn't need Co-processors to fit a shield tank), and more mid slots (less low slots) so that the nag can fit a more respectable tank.
A Rate of fire buff built into Capital Projectile / torp damage would also help the Phoenix and Naglfar without making either too strong. |
Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 23:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Myrkala
/signed
The argument about "Hardest to train for -> Should be best" sounds good.
But I would really like to see this:
1. Give the naglfar 3 Turret (and 3 Missile Hardpoints)
Argument:
Gives the pilots the option to train for either weapon system, giving them options and also opening the doors a bit wider for Minmatar Pilots who want to train for them, shortening the time it takes to train.
3 Turret slots is pretty obvious, split weapon system on a dread is just idiotic, I can't see any reason for having one on a dread.
Giving the option to use launchers as well follows the minmatar way of being "versatile."
2. Boost fittings
Quote OP.
I don't have a problem with the Naglfar being the hardest to train for and arguably the worst, it's more the EXTREME difference between it and the other dreads. It just cant even come close to the revelation in any aspect. The only dread it beats in any aspect is the phoenix with it's dps, but even then the pheonix has twice the effective hp and 3-4 times the alpha.
Originally by: Zurin Arctus
Quote:
OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both
I stopped reading there.
Give us a break, Minny trolls. You're still one of the two best PvP races in the game.
Thank god you stopped reading at the end of my post, I'm glad you took those few extra saved seconds to post this.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.16 13:08:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Yorda on 16/06/2008 13:08:15
Originally by: Sir Ibex
Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.
The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.
By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.
Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)
So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)
As I've said before I dont really have a problem with them being the worst capitals, but more that they're the worst capitals by such a huge margin. If you have all the skills for a nidhoggur (min BS V, capital armor tanking etc) but do not have large projectile V (which is pretty worthless considering how much minmatar BS sucks at sniping) it's actually quicker for you to train amarr BS V and large lasers V and get into a Revelation especially when you consider the training required for decent missile skills that most minmatar pilots probably dont have. Not to mention you can now fly a pretty nice Apoc or Abbadon and are close to T2 large beams / pulses with decent gunnery skills shared with minmatar.
The Vagabond may be the king of HACs and the rifter the king of T1 frigates, but there's plenty of other good HACs (the zealot and the sacrilege are both very nice) that are almost as good as the vagabond but also have good battleships and the best capitals. Any smart pilot would just train minmatar cruiser V, not bother with min BS at all, and just train for amarr capitals. Getting the best of both worlds with relatively little extra training.
Basically, just because minmatar have the best cruisers doesn't mean they should have absolutely terrible capitals, supercapitals, and battleships.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.17 02:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.
Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.06.17 23:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Yorda
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.
Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...
Kinda seems like something you said. That was you, wasn't it?
Seems it needs repeating since its obviously not getting through. 
What this issue actually needs is some CSM support. Unfortunately both goon reps dont want to focus on specific issues (rather the larger, more important ones) and a goon suggest it so everyone else is out or something.
That or none of the other CSM reps have ever flown a minmatar cap ship (or any cap ship for that matter).
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.06.18 12:54:00 -
[27]
If you want an idea of just how terrible the Naglfar is, a Naglfar with five officer damage mods does less damage than a revelation with 3 T2 damage mods and the lowest type of faction ammo.
(http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0806/Nag_vs._Rev2.jpg)
I'm fine with them being the worst, but come on. You also need an officer co-processor or a faction co-processor + 5% cpu implant to fit a shield tank on the nag setup.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.06.18 23:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mia Kahn
IMO:
4 Highs, 3 Turrets, 0 Missiles
6 Mids
6 Lows
7.5% Capital Projectile RoF, 5% Capital Projectile Damage
Bang! You have a big Tempest, that can do light tank shield tank + high dps, or armor tank + comparable dps to the other dreads. Even with this considerable bonus, Capital Projectiles may need a small boost to bring them in line with the other dreads.
Also capital autocannons really need to be looked at, as fighting in falloff isn't really a considerable tactic when your primary purpose is to be anchored in one place due to siege, therefore the high paper DPS of capital autos means nothing because you will at least be fighting at some range.
This is a pretty good idea.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
against,
the tank needs looking at, but not the wepon systems - they are in line with the way they are supposed to work (choise of damage type). Adding and subtracting slots is not the answer, neither is removing the citadel launchers. A solution, if there is one that is needed, has to work with the current ship.
The point of this thread is not to suggest specific changes, but rather to point out the huge disadvantage of minmatar capital ships. The Naglfar definitely needs a stronger tank and needs a significant dps upgrade and I think we can all agree about that, even if we disagree on how to get there.
I highly doubt any issue will go through CCP exactly the way it is presented in the OP.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.06.23 02:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Orb Lati
The Naglfa wont get a change to the missile/turret slot layout as it would require a re-model of the hull.
The changes will either be in the guns themselves, the ship stats/bonuses or in the mid/low slot ratio/count.
I can dream 
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.06.24 19:12:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Yorda on 24/06/2008 19:12:16
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Originally by: Setana Manoro
Naglfar is not as crap as some other dreads.
Care to elaborate on this one? All the evidence indicates its the worst of the 4, in both tanking and DPS.
It's more commonly known as a terrible troll. You can spot posts because they claim a lot in a small amount of space, but really have nothing to show for it.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.07.04 02:12:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Bane Glorious
I was hoping to just fit this into my "Capital Ships Online" topic, but unfortunately that got voted down for the Iceland meeting. However, I will try to push this issue forward for the August meeting.
I would prefer to label it as balance between dreads/carriers within their classes, however.
Thank you Bane, I'm sure you know more than I do about the theory/reality of these ships and I hope all the other CSM members at least attempt to understand things they may of never experienced.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.07.06 23:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bane Glorious
This issue passed in the meeting earlier today and will be brought to CCP's attention in August.
woo
<3
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.08.06 20:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Cpt Lumis
Anyone know when they will make this improvement I have a minny cap now But have not trained for the cit torps yet. If they change that I would Like to know ASAP so I dont have to. If they dont change it. I may just train for the gallente dread. Even know the minny one looks awsome.
I stopped paying attention to this thread when some RL stuff came up and bane took it before the CSM (<3), but knowing CCP the earliest this will be is a month or two if they've already noticed the terrible design of minmatar caps.
Nidhoggur is a great carrier as long as you never take it into combat. As a dread / carrier pilot my carrier only gets on km's when I've assigned fighters from 2m outside a pos. I'm currently training for triage which just makes the nidhoggur that much more awesome :)
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.08.20 18:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Asterisk Grat
When is the next meeting?
I believe the next CSM meeting with CCP is August 20 something where this will be on of the issues discussed.
I'm not entirely sure that's correct though. |
Yorda
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Strill
Originally by: Yorda
Unfortunatly it cannot target to sniping range without a sensor booster, so it is left with a 4 slot shield tank.
So you can afford to train all those skills for a Nidhoggur, spend all the time and money building it, and then can't afford to have some people coordinate to use remote sensor boosters on you?
That's for the Naglfar, not nidhoggur. |
Yorda
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Posted - 2008.08.24 19:39:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Triest
Originally by: irion felpamy
For the nag I like the idea of making it 4 highs 3 turrets 3 launchers, extra low. 5% torp and projectile rof + 5% torp speed/hp/etc and 5% projectile damage make the thing versitile weapons wise.
I'm pretty sure that this would actually make the Naglfar even worse than it is right now, and I'm trying hard to see what the rationale would be in the first place. You're losing a high slot and downgrading the bonus for citadel torps from 7.5 to 5% per level and gaining... what, exactly?
I believe he meant 5 high slots (4 low slots) and the extra hp on the torps would help a bit, but capital torps need to be basically reworked anyway.
What the nag really needs is a base +5% damage of torps + projectile per level and a 5% rof of torp + projectile per level. The 3 turrents and launcher spots would just be good for variety.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.08.25 15:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Triest
I continue to think that a shield buffer/burst tank with many damage mods fitted is the best way to do it; it'd still be a likely primary, but with a 5/6/5 slot layout and maybe a 7.5% shield boost bonus (and 7.5/7.5% launcher/projectile ROF/damage bonus) it'd be competitive with the other dreads, and still a bit distinct, besides.
The nag already has a pretty good burst tank (shield tanked is about double the moros / rev burst tank), but it's cap effeciancy kills it. In a dread fight this helps but nags die pretty easily to poses.
I'd still take it over the vertical pile of shit the nag is right now though.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.09.01 15:48:00 -
[39]
Originally by: SickSeven
So was there a meeting this month or what? I just got Minny BS V done, and it rocks for flying a phoon or Maelstrom, but should I train Large Proj Turrett V or not?
It would have to be a pretty huge buff to not make training any other carrier / dread combo more worthwhile.
Even if they did talk about this, it's going to be months before CCP actually does anything about it. Hopefully a dev has already seen the thread and they're actually working on it, but I doubt it. |
Yorda
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Posted - 2008.09.05 04:58:00 -
[40]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=839426&page=3#81
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Yorda
When is the next meeting with CCP? I was under the impression that it was late August, but don't see anything about it.
Issues were submitted on the 26th of August. So it will take at least till next week.
But I don't think the date has been announced yet.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.09.18 17:58:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Yorda on 18/09/2008 17:58:50
Originally by: SUTARAofHELL
Edited by: SUTARAofHELL on 17/09/2008 18:59:44
Ive just heard on the TS someone calling the nidhoggur - "noobhoggur" and the usual comments that they are of course the worst capital ship blah blah (but i still love them coz they are so vertical) ... o come on CCP you must do something and quick. Listen to Yorda! JUST DO IT! 
I prefer to call mine <racial comment>hugger.
Also, I agree with both the nano nerf and that minmatar ships in general need a review (espeically artillery).
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.09.25 20:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Triest
Originally by: Bane Glorious
If you look back a few pages, you'll see that this issue was approved by the CSM many weeks ago.
Right. The real question is whether CCP are actually doing anything about this, or any other CSM-debated topic. I don't doubt that some form of discussion was had by you guys, and maybe suggestions passed on to CCP, but it's the last step which has all the uncertainty. You say you can't update us on that (which I don't really understand, but it's presumably not your call), so I guess we're going to keep sporadically bumping this thread until CCP decide to tell us the score.
What part of "I'm not at liberty to say any kind of update one way or another." didn't you understand?
Originally by: Hottie McGee
i know i supported this, but everytime i talk to my fellow goons about capitals, and tell them i'm planning on training minmatar, they just brow beat me about not training for a rev. it's not a hard change, and there is a reason not many people fly this ship.
The Nidhoggur's pretty good, and it's actually quicker to train a rev than training a naglfar even with the nidhoggur fully speced.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.10.12 14:44:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Yorda on 12/10/2008 14:46:48
Major update: My new Nag comes out of the oven in like a week.
Taking bets on how many times I lose it before it gets buffed.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.10.13 16:29:00 -
[44]
I do seem to get primaried a lot, but any decent FC wont primary a nag in a cap fight. Lowest dps, high burst tank (it only lasts for 1-2minutes but that's about as long as most dreads last in a cap fight anyway), plus they're like a giant marker of where the enemy cap fleet is.
Pos shots on the other hand...
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.10.19 17:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Cpt Lumis
Will we finally get an answer soon. Even a to bad guys. To bad you trained a minny dread would be nice at this point. I have been checkng this post ever day for like 3 months now and every month they say they will look into is next meeting. But I see no meeting min's or anything.
CCP are slow as hell, more news at 11.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.10.27 10:36:00 -
[46]
No he's right, with faction damage mods and a faction co-proc (about another ~200mil in gear) you can shove a DCII as well. You can also drop two faction gyro's for t2 and use a 3% cpu implant. You still need a cpu mod to fit a shield tank, your damage is still subpar, and your tank is ridiculously cap unstable but it is marginally better.
I just don't think you should require a capital to spend millions more on an already crappy ship to make it marginally less subpar. |
Yorda
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Posted - 2008.10.30 00:34:00 -
[47]
Maybe they'll be fixed by this time next year :unsmith:
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.11.03 02:18:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Cpt Lumis
So did they say when the cap ships are up for review then.
I can guarantee that it may or may not happen sometime within the next 10 years.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.11.09 10:18:00 -
[49]
I can now confirm that naglfars look really pretty even while blowing up.
Also spilt weapons in a cap fight sucks.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:35:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Yorda on 12/11/2008 02:36:06
It doesn't suck when I'd insured it moments before and my alliance has already given me a new one for free!
I love making a billion for dying in a cap fight.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.11.21 14:40:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Yorda on 21/11/2008 14:40:41
Originally by: Chi Quan
the mentioned caps do need a look into, but how about a less drastic one for the nag:
one more low, one less high, 3/3 guns/launchers
God that's a terrible change.
The worst thing about the nagflar is it's terrible CPU. If you're going to fix anything give it more cpu.
The next thing is it's dps, make it so both guns and launchers have 2 bonuses applied from the hull. Don't take away 1/4th of it's dps.
Finally it doesn't really need 6 low slots with fixed cpu, so drop a low slot and add at least 1 (preferably 2) mid slots so the shield tank doesn't suck horribly.
tl;dr: shut up stupid alt troll.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:26:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Yorda on 23/11/2008 20:36:22
Originally by: Chi Quan
now come on, it's just a suggestion. this is my main (forum main, but it does not matter) for this task and i will not use another just to give others more ammo against me like "you fascist bob!" or "you dumb goon" (please, don't take this personally it's just an example)
giving 4 bonuses from the hull seems a bit much. a third non weapon related would be much more minmatar style imho. admittedly i don't fly a nag myself, but i saw action alongside them. if you feel like the master of all things, sure, go ahead, see if more cpu alone makes the nag better.
i should also add that ccp seems to balance across races, not ship classes. so minmatar end up having overall above average small ships and overall underperforming capitals.
Sorry, figured you were just another alt troll. Pretty much all of your suggestions are a complete nerf to the naglfar.
Losing a high slot means you lose more dps on it's already sub-par dps, gaining a lowslot is completely worthless because you're starved for CPU as is and can't do anything with it.
I honestly don't know why this hasn't been brought up sooner. People use to love nags, I would imagine it was because they saw 4 high slots and figured they did 25% more damage than other dreads (maybe the incredibly strong tempest had something to do with it too). Most of these were armor tanked too so they did even less damage than the other race's counterparts.
The whole "they have good small ships so the big ships should suck" thing is really old. Take Amarr for example, they have decent inties, probably the best hacs right now (maybe the vaga is still king with the sac / zealot coming in 2nd and third), they have good cruisers, good bc's, good command ships, the recons are still pretty meh but better thanks to the nano nerf, they have amazing battleships, the best supercaps (both titans and motherships), the best dread, and all the carriers are pretty much the same. In every place apart from carriers and dictors (which all 4 races pretty much perform the same role) they are in the top or at very least can compete (recons), minmatar battleships and dread / supercaps are really sub par in every way right now (and I'd still probably fly a falcon over any other recon, and a zealot over any hac maybe that's just me though).
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Posted - 2008.12.09 05:50:00 -
[53]
Originally by: NanDe YaNen
Raise CPU
Add capital cruise launchers to complement torp launchers.
Make capital cruise/torp launchers follow the pattern of non-capital.
Naglfar can suddenly pack highest or near highest close range DPS with largest falloff (traditional advantage of mini close-range gear) giving them the best engagement capability at non-sniping ranges i.e. we cyno'd right on top of a cap blob.
That's not really enough, it needs more dps to be atleast close to the other dreads and it needs a better tank. Double weapon bonuses built into the hull, a cpu boost, and one or two midslots are what it needs at bare minimum.
Originally by: Lanais Suleia
Originally by: Cur
What is the point of the Naglfail other than to be outmatched by the other dreadnoughts in almost every situation?
It needs a clear strength.
Its clear strenght is being so useless that it's rarely primaried.
But yes, split weapon systems for the fail.
I'm always primaried Aside from pos shots I don't really know why though.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2008.12.23 21:05:00 -
[54]
IIRC they said they were going to lump this in with an upcoming capital review in general so don't hold your breath.
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Yorda
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Posted - 2009.01.18 06:00:00 -
[55]
Goonswarm has started giving a Caldari Dread book to any active alliance nag pilot.
This is how much the suck, the alliance is actually paying for people to train out of them. |
Yorda
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Posted - 2009.01.30 00:35:00 -
[56]
I kinda wanna change the OP to Fix the Nag, Hel, and Ragnarok instead of nidhoggur + nag cuz I like the nidhoggur. It's a great ship as long as you suicide fit it with triage and 4 remote reps. The rest of them suck though.
I guess the rag is okay as long as you dont care about gang bonuses. It's a shame the lev does everything it does but better though. |
Yorda
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Posted - 2009.02.18 21:02:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Yorda on 18/02/2009 21:01:45
Originally by: TimGascoigne
when Shrike last lost a titan there were 29 dreadnoughts [url=http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/304971]involved[/url]. Only one of them was a naglfar and it was 24th for damage.
so basically only 1 in 30 dreads in eve that are being fielded. Are minmatar and thay hitting for disappointingly low damage. Of course we all already know this........ unless you are the game design team at CCP
We non-ironically asked Naglfars specifically to do something on an op and everyone was amazed we actually had a naglfar! It was a russian though so it doesn't really count as an anomaly.
I wouldn't even say 1/30 people fly the nag, discounting Russians I'd say it was closer to 1/100.
----
06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore
06:36 11Thol we're not no.1
06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best
06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans
06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Yorda
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Posted - 2009.02.20 03:38:00 -
[58]
Originally by: SK Rooster
Originally by: Yorda
The Naglfar:
In order to compete, the Naglfar needs to spend four of it's low slots on damage modules leaving it with a 5 slot shield tank. Unfortunatly it cannot target to sniping range without a sensor booster, so it is left with a 4 slot shield tank. This leaves it with the weakest tank and lowest effective hp of the four dreads. On top of this, it needs two co-processors to fit everything.
this is YOUR opinion, just because minmatar doesnt fit into your cookie cutter setup, doesnt mean it is useless. if you dont like the ship, train for another race that is more your style. this is not necessarily a matter of what race is 'better' but obviously more one of different from your playstyle.
that being said yes the naglfar sucks. how about get creative and put a triple trimark with 1x damage mod, and 1x captial armor rep. then you can put all the fukken sensor boosters you want. you are going to get outdamaged with 4x damage mods any way, so stop trying.
Amazingly enough I was taking the best possible fit for the naglfar in comparison with the others. Yes, you can armor tank it and you don't need fitting mods but then you get literally half the damage of every other dread while having a weaker tank that's more cap stable. I know the appeal of doing the damage of a blaster mega while tanking as much as a chimera might appeal to you, but for 1.6 billion isk I'd rather actually get something out of my dread.
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06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore
06:36 11Thol we're not no.1
06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best
06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans
06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Yorda
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Posted - 2009.02.23 04:41:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Yorda on 23/02/2009 04:41:14
Oh thank god, for a second there I thought Yaay supported my thread and I was going to try and get it deleted before anyone saw.
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06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore
06:36 11Thol we're not no.1
06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best
06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans
06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Yorda
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Posted - 2009.02.24 02:41:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Yorda on 24/02/2009 02:43:05
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Yorda
Edited by: Yorda on 23/02/2009 04:41:14
Oh thank god, for a second there I thought Yaay supported my thread and I was going to try and get it deleted before anyone saw.
this game has turned cookie cutter enough, it doesn't need to be more. The phoenix is **** yet half of goons fly those right? PL at least got that one right when they banned them.
I'm amazed by how stupid you are every time you post, and I've seen you FC!
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Originally by: Yaay
So really, lets just all fly revs and quit the emo sessions please.
Originally by: Yaay
this game has turned cookie cutter enough, it doesn't need to be more.
You lost me 
Somewhere in the lostness, I pointed out the obsurdity of the whines. The ship does what it does, like it or hate it.
If it does get a boost, I think the only viable one is to tweak capital missle damage. Short of hitting a slow flying yet oddly stationary brick wall, capital missiles are fubar.
Hmm, yes CCP please boost missile damage so the phoenix I'm training for is even stronger tia.
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06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore
06:36 11Thol we're not no.1
06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best
06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans
06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
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Yorda
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Posted - 2009.02.24 07:16:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Yorda on 24/02/2009 07:23:56
If you havn't figured this out yet Yaay:
1. You're a complete idiot
2. The nag does not have the highest dps of a gank dread (both blaster moros's (7k), and revs do more (5.7k)) EDIT: Even without clones both do more
3. You're a complete idiot
4. Get out of my thread.
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06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore
06:36 11Thol we're not no.1
06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best
06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans
06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Yorda
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Posted - 2009.02.26 16:21:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Yaay
My mistake, I guess the several PL who have said as much are offset by the one dread that a guy is flying... so let me clarify that. PL heavily encourages turret dread use. However, due to people's nubbery, I'm sure it will take time til all pilots are swapped over. When it comes to dreads though, any dread is better than 1 less.
Yorda:
Nag does slightly more dps than a rev with the same effective hp, You're right about the moros, never even considered it before I posted, but then honestly, who's ever used a blaster moros. I've at least seen a pulse or auto setup or 2 in my time.
As for being an idiot, meh.
I think you missed point 4.
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06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore
06:36 11Thol we're not no.1
06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best
06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans
06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Yorda
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Posted - 2009.02.28 04:45:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Yorda
I think you missed point 4.
Stop it Yorda, I don't want to like a Goon.
As many people will point out, I'm not a goon :)
As for sniping setups with the nag, it's not terribly hard to get it sniping with both weapons (missile rigs + 1 TE/tracking computer) but it suffers from the same problem as a regular nag in that it has the weakest tank by far and the least dps. The real problem is that sniping with cap torps means you have to shoot a different primary (in order to give your missiles time to hit the target, such as firing at the secondary / tertiary) while your guns should be on the primary. You can obviously just say **** it and fire your guns at the same target but with more than handful of nags this means you really need 3 different primaries.
Anyone with half a brain (sorry Yaay you don't count) can see that the nag is the worst dread by a large margin, combine this with the fact that minmatar bses are completely terrible in fleets and you really have no reason to train for minmatar caps (unless you're an awesome person who actually likes suicide triage repping poses and feel like wasting a bs V for it). All 3 other dreads are unique and have different reasons for people training for them, the nag does not. If you're in a nidhoggur pilot it's actually faster in training time to train for a revelation/moros and then you have amazing bses and t2 large guns for a decent race of battleships (not to mention a dread that's almost literally twice as good). I can not think of a SINGLE reason anyone would want to train for a naglfar.
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06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore
06:36 11Thol we're not no.1
06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best
06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans
06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.01 13:40:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Asterisk Grat
Yet, we're here, I should have one coming out from an oven in 3 weeks. I know it's the worst dread.
I was talking with a corp mate few day ago, he shield tanks his naglfar and 4 damage mods in the lows to stay competitive.
His position on numerous POS kill mails was far from the top of the list. And thats what 4 damage mods and compromised tank.
- Nid is armor tank
- Thats about 18-20days of training time to be able to use capital shield booster for comparative damage with dam mods.
- Another 15-17days of training time for split weapon system.
We're not talking about regular skills needed for split weapon of a typhoon for example, we're talking capitals skills.
This is a bad joke.
Needless to say I'm still going minmatar all the way. I doubt I'd be spending extra time to be able to shield tank it, because split weapon system is enough.
I trained for the nag thinking that in the insane amount of time it took to get speced for everything that ccp would of fixed it, but alas they still havn't (almost a year ago now) and I sold it to buy a phoenix which I'm currently training for.
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.13 16:36:00 -
[65]
Originally by: NDQPD InternalAffairs
any chance of at least getting a response about them? something like "screw you guys, it's called amarr online for a reason" or "just you wait, the super pwn nagilifar is coming soon....we just cant tell you when....but we cant wait to say happy 4th of july" or some such.
They said they would "look" at naglfars in the "upcoming capital review". Don't hold your breath. They obviously have more important things to do like walking in stations and implementing ships that suck and no one will ever fly.
Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
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