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Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:39:00 - [1] There has been a long standing notion of mine that while the Nano ship theory is not overpowered, it remains the most frustrating class of ship to meet in combat. Often I've cursed (or at least sighed in an exasperated manner) when I fire dozens of rounds at a nano ship only to get a return stating that my Puny Caldari weapons were no match for them. There are many anti-nano theories floating about, but in real life application I've found that in the battleship class of ships the anti-nano theories at best result in driving the nano ship from the field. As such, I am attempting to determine if viable configurations exist at the battleship level for not only driving away nano ships, but a design that is capable of killing them as a rule rather than as an accident. I have a number of ideas regarding ship hulls to use, weapon systems and module configurations and whatnot but I lack a certain amount of information regarding the nano ships themselves. The most important question I need answered in the first part of this process is getting something approaching a consensus regarding the usual nano configurations of the popular nano ships. While there are dozens of threads containing hundreds of setups for the various ships, I am looking for specifics here so I more accurately calculate the advantages and disadvantages of certain modules. I do not live by the opinion that the average nano ship I see from day to day is a multibillion ISK doom wagon - instead I presume that they are often at best "mildy pimped" using polycarbons, tech two components and faction parts in choice places. Once I collect enough information to build a reasonable consensus of the "average" for a each of the ship classes I can begin work examining potential configurations and attempting to find a viable battleship class anti-nano ship for each race. Phase three of the endeavor will involve finding volunteer test pilots to partake in a grand trail of the designs on the test server to determine the viability of the configurations in something approaching real combat. The ultimate goal of my endeavor is to develop a viable battleship counter to the nano-scourge, hopefully allowing hastily assembled local defense fleets the ability to not only drive away the menace but also score kills along the way.
phishstik Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:49:00 - [2] One solution is remote rep BS's, and a well armor plated Huginn (1600mm plate), multiple webs, sensor booster. BS's will keep huginn alive. BS's should also web the huginn to prevent bumping out of rep range.
tarin adur Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:52:00 - [3] All it takes is 1 Neutralizer, a microwarp drive and a web, heat helps of course but is not entirely necessary. The only HAC this won't work agains't is maybe the ishtar(it carries injectors and it's dps isn't in its guns so it can drift outside neut range) On the other hand, good piloting skill(Manual flight,not that approach crap) can easily do away with most nano ships since it's close to impossible to sustain a mwd permanently.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:54:00 - [4] Originally by: phishstik One solution is remote rep BS's, and a well armor plated Huginn (1600mm plate), multiple webs, sensor booster. BS's will keep huginn alive. BS's should also web the huginn to prevent bumping out of rep range. The problem with such a solution is it relies on a Minnie Recon that more often than not probably won't be available on short notice. Most people on the other hand can fly battleships with some degree of skill, and battleships are more convienently expendable in combat that Tech II ships. I'm more interested in making the battleships themselves more capable of murdering nano's than I am creating a scenario where the battleships can win. In other words, I want to see if it's possible to custom build a battleship that negates the advantages of the average nano without relying on a sperate ship to solve the problem for you.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:56:00 - [5] I find that faction scrams with heavy neuts work well. My Ishtar: 3x 150 Rail II, Med Neut, Sm Remote Rep/cloak (these vary some) 10mn MWD II, 2x LSE II, TS Warp Disruptor, LCB II 3x OD II, Nano II, Local Istab 2x Poly I've got 3% hardwirings and Zor's. I used to have a snake set, but I lost it when 200+ people jumped into BKG all at the same time and lagged me out. Something about 350+ vs 70 makes you lose... ;-) -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:58:00 - [6] Originally by: tarin adur All it takes is 1 Neutralizer, a microwarp drive and a web, heat helps of course but is not entirely necessary. The only HAC this won't work agains't is maybe the ishtar(it carries injectors and it's dps isn't in its guns so it can drift outside neut range) On the other hand, good piloting skill(Manual flight,not that approach crap) can easily do away with most nano ships since it's close to impossible to sustain a mwd permanently. This is an example of a scenario where you'll drive the nano away but probably won't kill them. More importantly, it only helps in a 1V1 situation and only a fool would hope to assemble a an equal numbered force in the short time a nano gang tends to stay in a particular area. Like I said in my First post, I'm aware of the tactics that can be used but I'm interested in the potential for a "cookie cutter" setup for each race purpose built for anti-nano work. It's a fools game I know but I'm a very boring person.
Boslen Malropet	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:21:00 - [7] Wouldn't it help to like, put your corps noobs in destroyers w small range-guns and good tracking? I often use a semi-nano (like 2,5km/sek) vexor w 4 x 25km or so rails + a set of warrior II's to help getting nano away from our other ships. It's cheap and I have one in every station we use so I can throw it into battle asap.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Boslen Malropet Wouldn't it help to like, put your corps noobs in destroyers w small range-guns and good tracking? I often use a semi-nano (like 2,5km/sek) vexor w 4 x 25km or so rails + a set of warrior II's to help getting nano away from our other ships. It's cheap and I have one in every station we use so I can throw it into battle asap. This is ONE Potential scenario BUT destroyers are incredibly fragile. While they can deal effective damage to most nano ships with ease, they themselves will quickly be BBQ'd for their efforts unless they outnumber the enemy by at least some margin. Still, I will take the option into consideration as most people can at least set foot into destroyers and they are almost free to replace.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Derek Sigres This is an example of a scenario where you'll drive the nano away but probably won't kill them. More importantly, it only helps in a 1V1 situation and only a fool would hope to assemble a an equal numbered force in the short time a nano gang tends to stay in a particular area. Like I said in my First post, I'm aware of the tactics that can be used but I'm interested in the potential for a "cookie cutter" setup for each race purpose built for anti-nano work. It's a fools game I know but I'm a very boring person. Supposing that you're not drastically outnumbered, RR BS gangs with neuts wtfpwn nano gangs. Make sure you spread out a bit to make the most of your overheated web ranges. Adding in Matari/Gallente recons add spice to the pwnage. Just make sure that you turn on your MWD until the Reppers get you locked. Neut/Repping Domis with sentries are ideal, of course. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Derek Sigres This is an example of a scenario where you'll drive the nano away but probably won't kill them. More importantly, it only helps in a 1V1 situation and only a fool would hope to assemble a an equal numbered force in the short time a nano gang tends to stay in a particular area. Like I said in my First post, I'm aware of the tactics that can be used but I'm interested in the potential for a "cookie cutter" setup for each race purpose built for anti-nano work. It's a fools game I know but I'm a very boring person. Supposing that you're not drastically outnumbered, RR BS gangs with neuts wtfpwn nano gangs. Make sure you spread out a bit to make the most of your overheated web ranges. Adding in Matari/Gallente recons add spice to the pwnage. Just make sure that you turn on your MWD until the Reppers get you locked. Neut/Repping Domis with sentries are ideal, of course. -Liang The basic theory I am operating off of is utalizing much lower degrees of tank/gank in conjucntion with tracking enchancers/computers and painters along with heavy neuts etc. I feel that with the proper combination one could deliver effective damage on target to most of the nano ships out there within point range, potentially increasing the kill probability substantially. The part I'm not sure about is what the average speed and DPS of the particular nano ships are. Tanking a solo Vaga's damage for example is one thing but an Ishtar can deal some MEAN dps if you are unable to effectively target the drones (and non SB armed battleships are fairly bad at shooting down drones). I know the remote rep method works, I'm simply looking for another avenue, and preferably one that doesn't rely on them getting into web range (it does happen but not often enough in my experience).
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:38:00 - [11] BAIT ---------------- [insert signature here]
Brodde Dim Unseen University Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:52:00 - [12] Only blobs or other nanos can catch nanogangs. Unless you are very lucky, or the nano pilots are inexperienced. You can offcourse scare them away, or rep eachother until they get bored instead of killing them though.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Brodde Dim Only blobs or other nanos can catch nanogangs. Unless you are very lucky, or the nano pilots are inexperienced. You can offcourse scare them away, or rep eachother until they get bored instead of killing them though. Yes, given the current theories and common setups this this remains true. My aim is to find out if there is another way and what that way is. I'm begininng to think I should have named the thread something different now
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.27 22:07:00 - [14] The point of nanoships is they don't have to engage people who can/will beat them. Bait them with a juicy morsel, like a "ratting" battleship packed with webs, disruptors, and neuts. ---------------- [insert signature here]
AppleBanana	Posted - 2008.05.27 22:15:00 - [15] Why dont they just increase web range to 16k and nerf warp disruptor range to 10km, their nano problem solved.
Dark Sidhe Rage For Order Nihil-Obstat	Posted - 2008.05.27 23:00:00 - [16] Edited by: Dark Sidhe on 27/05/2008 23:00:21 For the BS class, the key to beating nanos IMO is to have some frigs or recons or intys in your gang. The initial web on the Vaga etc will even things up considerably. All it takes is one mistake from Nano Boy and his speed gets cut by 75% or more with better webs. That first web leads to a second web etc. For BS's, max your tracking skills and fire rates. Have a web or your own in case Vaga Boy gets too close, be patient. An energy neut screws up Vaga Boy's cap for MWD. Where I screwed up when I was new to BS's was panicking...Vaga Boy can't just blow up a Tempest if you have good skills and a decent fit. Keep up your fire, wait for him to make a mistake, send out your drones and call in friends nearby. I don't try to drive Vaga Boy from the field, I look to kill him. That has cost me in the past where he brings in friends and mine are slower to arrive but it gets the blood a pumpin. ------------------------------- "Back away from the Tatoo Ink"
Jackal79	Posted - 2008.05.27 23:03:00 - [17] Ships like vagabonds like to come in close to do damage. Put a web/scram/MWD on something like a drake or a raven and your pretty much guaranteed nano kills (you'll die too after you kill 1 or 2 of them). They get*****y and come in close - then turn on your scram, web and MWD and approach them. Then turn on guns and watch him roast. Nano ships are pretty careless about not staying out of web range when it comes to certain ships (like the drake or raven).
Danari Viper Squad Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.05.27 23:13:00 - [18] If it were me, I'd fit a bs with a couple neuts, a web, a mwd, a couple agility mods and try to get it mobile enough to compete in that arena. Fit for close range damage, and see if you can just melt the ****.
Tuis Ryche Free Collective The OSS	Posted - 2008.05.27 23:25:00 - [19] Whenever possible, I prefer a cruise Raven with dual heavy neuts. Anything small and cap-reliant within 25k is going to be hurting quick. Fit a tracking disruptor to force them in closer to do their damage. Use your drones to eat theirs - trouble targeting? Zoom out until their drones are a little blob around you, hover cursor and they'll end up in a neat little column for targeting ease. Your mileage may vary. Good luck. "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." ---Gen . George S. Patton, Jr.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.05.27 23:59:00 - [20] Originally by: phishstik BS's will keep huginn alive. BS's should also web the huginn to prevent bumping out of rep range. I don't think webbing affects bump velocity at all... huginn is better off orbiting the BS at 500.
Squatdog Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.28 00:33:00 - [21] Nanoboats are comically overpowered in smaller gangs and it's going to be hilarious watching all the lamer****s howl and complain that they can't win anymore following the upcoming speed fix. Heavy Neuts will force a nanofag to run but won't let you kill them unless they're extremely unlucky (or intellectually handicapped). MWD is on a 10second pulse and even if they get neuted at the end of the cycle, they'll still have enough momentum to doubleclick in space and escape. There are a lot of ways to deal with nanoboats, but most will only result in them fleeing as it's VERY difficult to catch a nanofag who has a vague idea of what they're doing.
Pr1ncess Alia Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.28 01:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Squatdog Nanoboats are comically overpowered in smaller gangs and it's going to be hilarious watching all the lamer****s howl and complain that they can't win anymore following the upcoming speed fix. Heavy Neuts will force a nanofag to run but won't let you kill them unless they're extremely unlucky (or intellectually handicapped). MWD is on a 10second pulse and even if they get neuted at the end of the cycle, they'll still have enough momentum to doubleclick in space and escape. There are a lot of ways to deal with nanoboats, but most will only result in them fleeing as it's VERY difficult to catch a nanofag who has a vague idea of what they're doing. look at how jaded and single minded you are. you cant even discuss the issue w/o slurring insults and sterotyping lets get rid of all the speed mods and cap every ship at 500m/s. that will make for a fun game.
Pr1ncess Alia Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.28 01:07:00 - [23] oh, and snake implants. oh, and astrometric rigs. get rid of both of these at once. did i mention getting rid of mwds?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.28 01:16:00 - [24] Originally by: phishstik One solution is remote rep BS's, and a well armor plated Huginn (1600mm plate), multiple webs, sensor booster. BS's will keep huginn alive. BS's should also web the huginn to prevent bumping out of rep range. You've never tried that have you?
z3roskill	Posted - 2008.05.28 01:42:00 - [25] Has anyone tried the AM caracal? highs: 5x assault missile launcher t2 /precision missiles meds: warp disruptor t2 stasis web t2 2x LSE t2 1 sensor booster t2 lows: 2x BCU t2 in eft,you get 8430m/s missile velocity , 4500m/s explosion velocity,15m explosion radious and 143 dps (all this with lvl5 skills) if anyone has tried this,post your opinions... imo you could get some nanofag kills and the best thing is that ot costs less than 10mil
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.28 01:46:00 - [26] The trick is that the nano-gang doesn't stick around when its out-classed, and you can't force it to without nano-ships.
Mahn AlNouhm The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.28 04:19:00 - [27] Originally by: z3roskill Has anyone tried the AM caracal? highs: 5x assault missile launcher t2 /precision missiles meds: warp disruptor t2 stasis web t2 2x LSE t2 1 sensor booster t2 lows: 2x BCU t2 in eft,you get 8430m/s missile velocity , 4500m/s explosion velocity,15m explosion radious and 143 dps (all this with lvl5 skills) if anyone has tried this,post your opinions... imo you could get some nanofag kills and the best thing is that ot costs less than 10mil Any nanofag ship would chew you to pieces before you put a dent in its tank. Beyond that, if for whatever reason, the nano ship decided not to engage, it'd just leave the range of your missiles well before it was in any sort of danger. In theory, it's not a bad idea, but it just wouldn't be effective. . . .
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.28 05:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Goumindong The trick is that the nano-gang doesn't stick around when its out-classed, and you can't force it to without nano-ships. That's not strictly true. RR BS gangs can at least kill some of the nanoships before they disengage. Having Matari and Gallente recons is just an added bonus for surefire kills. I've personally experienced the killing power of a domi and geddon as being excellent anti-nano ships. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Exuscon Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.28 05:43:00 - [29] Hotaro's fix: "For starters change the way of how overdrives, inertia stabilizers and nanofibers affect the speed. There are two ways i can think of right now... 1. - Overdrives: Change the cargo capacity penalty to an inertia penalty. This would prevent ships from beeing agile and fast at the same time - Inertia stabs: Chance the signature radius penalty to a speed penalty. This would prevent fast ships compensating the lack of agility. - Nanofibers: Leave them alone, they would be a module that affects both attributes a little bit. A ship gets a little more agile and a little faster with an AB/MWD fitted. - Improve the inertia of interceptors so it would compensate the use of two overdrive modules. - Allow only 3 mods or rigs to be fitted at the same time that affect either of the following attributes: inertia, mass, speed This way people would have to decide to be either very agile or fast, but not both at a time! Interceptors would not be affected very much, cause they are agile as it is and with the inertia improvement they could fit overdrives without having to suffer from a bad inertia. Even covert ops would not suffer from that cause they still could fit overdrives to go fast as they are cloaked. 2. - Overdrives: Change the cargo capacity penalty to an inertia penalty. Change the bonus to be a thrust bonus (AB/MWD) instead of a speed % bonus. This way the speeds of "supposed to be slow boats" wont get through the roof anymore, cause the additional speed is based on the MWD/AB now. - Inertia stabs: Change the signature penalty to a speed penalty. If you want an agile ship you won't go as fast anymore. - Improve the inertia of interceptors so it would compensate the use of two overdrive modules. - Nanofibers: Leave them alone again, little profits for both, speed and agility. - Allow only 3 mods or rigs to be fitted at the same time that affect either of the following attributes: inertia, mass, speed Even with this solution fast and agile are out of the picture if they were not supposed to be. Interceptors would stay where they are. This of course would change the behaviour of cloaked ships." I beleive this would balance things up quite a bit. "Save the tree! Wipe your arse with an owl instead."
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.28 06:03:00 - [30] Only change I wish to nanoships are that the polycarbons drop when you blow them.

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