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Dear CCP and Players of EVE: Whying Nerfing Nano Damages the Game

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Riho Mercenary Forces Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.29 07:27:00 - [31] our corp has developed quite a few tactics against nano gangs and none of our ships are nano :) works good too... even tho we havent used it much yet. not going to post our setups because stupid ppl need to adapt themselves :P ---------------------------------- Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
Kano Sekor modro CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.05.29 07:34:00 - [32] Basically there is a certain type of ships that imo have the rights to be insanely fast, and that is Interceptors. When interceptors arent the fastest shiptype out there something is seriously wrong. Make nanos and od's frigatesized modules only. Increase the base speed on minmatar ships so that they still are really fast but not insanely speedy i.e. vagabond. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Tomahawk	Posted - 2008.05.29 09:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Riho our corp has developed quite a few tactics against nano gangs and none of our ships are nano :) works good too... even tho we havent used it much yet. not going to post our setups because stupid ppl need to adapt themselves :P Yeye, got your point. I know how to kill a blob with a singel ship, how to avoid cyno-jammers, how to kill macro-miners without any penalty, how to disable a hic and lots of other stuff. Not going to post my setup because stuipid ppl need to adapt themselves :P OP, aren't you the notorious nano-user, camping the gates in venal ?
Dennis Nedry	Posted - 2008.05.29 09:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Kano Sekor Basically there is a certain type of ships that imo have the rights to be insanely fast, and that is Interceptors. When interceptors arent the fastest shiptype out there something is seriously wrong. Make nanos and od's frigatesized modules only. Increase the base speed on minmatar ships so that they still are really fast but not insanely speedy i.e. vagabond. QFT
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.29 09:43:00 - [35] Whatever nano'd ship you call 'fast', all interceptors will be faster. I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
Zantei	Posted - 2008.05.29 09:52:00 - [36] Originally by: LUKEC Nanos are 4tl imo and honestly, eve was better when 5km/s was considered very very fast. QFT
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.05.29 09:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Kano Sekor Basically there is a certain type of ships that imo have the rights to be insanely fast, and that is Interceptors. When interceptors arent the fastest shiptype out there something is seriously wrong. Make nanos and od's frigatesized modules only. Increase the base speed on minmatar ships so that they still are really fast but not insanely speedy i.e. vagabond. This ... RULES ... There were countless whines about WCS a year ago or so. Nano ship are just the same only dressed in blue. ther are many people (especialy lame pirates) that scream for mechanics that force people to commit to a fight they started (or usualy to a fight they are a victim to). However at the same time they defend nanos like mad. I don't get it. TBH I do not fly nano ships (don't have the skills and more importantly the cash). But I feel there is something wrong when a t2 interceptor is outpaced by a cruiser hull ship. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.05.29 09:59:00 - [38] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 29/05/2008 10:07:26 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 29/05/2008 10:03:37 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 29/05/2008 10:03:03 Originally by: Rising Fenix In my most humble rookie opinion, I think there should be a new Tech 2 ship that specializes in catching faster ships. Make em tough and expensive, but give some huge bonuses to Webs and Speed, allowing them to catch up to and Web those damn Nano'ers! Cheers, Fenix Sounds familiar...hmmmmm..... Webs....... Huge web bonus..... Nahhh....couldn't be the coughRapiercoughHuginncoughcough* Nahhhhhh EDIT Serious note re:Huginn/Rapier Recon V=40km webs (standard T2....silly range with CS boosts and faction) Speed anywhere from 2500-5000km/s depending on fit Relatively tough/survivable via buffer/cloak/range dictating Expensive Hits all your high notes Last Edit These threads are silly *Really last edit* Solo>small gang>nanoblob>most of EvE BLOB Fun meter pegs left if you couldn't guess. Speed gangs are how small numbers take on crappy NPC-er's masquerading as combat pilots in giant laggy bubbly null-sec. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Brodde Dim Unseen University Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.29 10:00:00 - [39] Originally by: Riho our corp has developed quite a few tactics against nano gangs and none of our ships are nano :) works good too... even tho we havent used it much yet. not going to post our setups because stupid ppl need to adapt themselves :P Let us know how well it worked when you have tried them. Or post the kills.
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.29 10:03:00 - [40] One of the things that people fail to understand is that the game changed as a whole. People see that their Blaster mega is not what is has been 12 months ago and they look at ships killing them, perceiving them as the cause of the problem. Sorry, this is not true. The whole game has chagned. Eve is growing, and now solo-PVP is officially dead and buried. Some people may still pursue the "hard mode", yet they are the exception that just amplifies the rule. Numbers-game is the defining factor now. Suddenly tank changed from the "negative DPS" concept to the measly "number of seconds before you die to focus fire" concept. BS that used to active tank hundreds of DPS are now useless - as the DPS of the focus fire is measured in thousands rather than hundreds. Number of cap ships is growing. Capital involvement can render almost any slow gang next to useless - as it takes 1 ship with cyno field to counter them. Nano was inveted to overcome the said issues. After the nano will be nerfed, the majority will probably adopt Burn Eden tactics of cloaking Ravens, as this + scout would be pretty much the only way to gather killmails while not getting blobbed and hotdroped. This or logon traps. I am not trying to advocate the nano-mechanics, I just want like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that EVE mechanics in general are responsible for the current gameplay. Nanos are just the fever indicating the influenza, but not the influenza itself. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Rach NiKunni	Posted - 2008.05.29 10:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Rising Fenix In my most humble rookie opinion, I think there should be a new Tech 2 ship that specializes in catching faster ships. Make em tough and expensive, but give some huge bonuses to Webs and Speed, allowing them to catch up to and Web those damn Nano'ers! Cheers, Fenix The ship you're describing is called a Rapier. Actually I don't mind fighting nano-gangs and I really don't see what the issue is. It's not like a nano setup is some kind of magic shield. We kill large numbers of nano-ships on a regular basis. Last night, for example, we sent a 30 or 40 man nano-fleet from the neighbours running back home in a fight that was a lot of fun on both sides.... There really is no nano-problem. There's just a failure to adapt. Having said that, it would be handy if the rapier had some kind of "area effect" web bubble like the dictor bubble. Maybe it could make a 70% speed reduction and just like the dictor bubble it would be a double edged sword. One suggestion fro CCP though...... nano-battleships? Nano caps? Nano titans? no thanks. The biggest microwarpdrive should be 10mn and afterburners/MWD shouldn't fit on cap ships.
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.05.29 10:12:00 - [42] web bubble + warp bubble = fail.
diabolic clone Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.05.29 10:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Sokratesz They already nerfed nano, HARD, doubt they will do it again. This is what makes me not want to see nano ships nerfed again, it hurt ALL ships not just the speed inclined ones and I don't want to see that happen again. On the other hand, high hit point, damage dealer type ships turning into high quality interceptor like tacklers with a flip of the switch doesn't seem very cool.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.05.29 10:48:00 - [44] Edited by: Shadowsword on 29/05/2008 10:48:23 Originally by: Zantei Originally by: LUKEC Nanos are 4tl imo and honestly, eve was better when 5km/s was considered very very fast. QFT Quoted again for emphasis. ------------------------------------------
Ethan Fletcher	Posted - 2008.05.29 11:05:00 - [45] Yes, and the OP states: "anti-nano gangs and ships are perfectly viable, currently in play and effective". But the point here is that in order to counter nano ships, you have to fit specifically for that, effectively eliminating 90% of the variation that is (and should be) possible when equipping your ship. Using different modules and rigs (many quite cheap), nano ships can now push the envelope into what in mathematics is called a "corner-solution', where there is no other way to end up and no better alternative. This causes everyone to end up in the same corner, because every player has the same tools to work with. The end result is that nano and anti-nano becomes all the game is about, and surely that can't have been the original idea with introducing hundreds of different ships and thousands of different modules. It's all about balance....(again)
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.05.29 11:10:00 - [46] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 29/05/2008 11:10:36 Originally by: LUKEC preemptive whine? Nanos are 4tl imo and honestly, eve was better when 5km/s was considered very very fast. This. Like it or not, all the weapons systems; turrets, drones, missiles, were balanced for this sort of speed on small ships. Oh and, small gang pvp existed well before the current nano-fad and will still exist when it is brought down a peg or two... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
mama guru Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.29 11:14:00 - [47] Edited by: mama guru on 29/05/2008 11:15:34 Originally by: Furb Killer So which nano ship do you fly? Ishtar and Sacrilege/Curse here. But then again i prefer the Deimos/Zealot over all those because quite frankly they're alot more fun. Wanna fix nano ships? I'd make precision missiles more enjoyable(read, less ******** drawbacks). Secondly: Remove the tracking penalties on the long range Tech2 ammo types. EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Hebus Zanheros ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.05.29 11:18:00 - [48] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Splash Whale Originally by: Furb Killer So which nano ship do you fly? Black and white huh.. If you do not agree with nerfing nanoships you must be flying one!! As said by 95% of the PvPers in eve, nanoships are fine. They do what they should and they can't do what they shouldn't. Fun fact 1: Did you know that even YOU can kill almost any nanoship with even something simple as a myrmidon and the "overload" option? No? Now you do! Fun fact 2: Did you know almost every ship ( cruisers and up ) with a web fitted ( MWD not even mandatory but helpful ) can kill most nanoships? I hope the fact that this involves skill doesnt scare you of tho... This game should be approach-only and only involve close range ship combat where in your large battleship always wins from those inferior HAC's because their smaller then you! No seriously. But you cannot kill few nanoships with few non-nano ships as nanos just run if they fail at killing(in other words, you can pretty much only lose if you fight nanos with non-nano gang). Eve is not about 1vs1 anymore and nanos simply have too much freedom at picking fights. I agree with that. -----------------------------------------------
The Djego merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.05.29 11:27:00 - [49] Edited by: The Djego on 29/05/2008 11:27:25 Originally by: Delichon One of the things that people fail to understand is that the game changed as a whole. People see that their Blaster mega is not what is has been 12 months ago and they look at ships killing them, perceiving them as the cause of the problem. Sorry, this is not true. The whole game has chagned. Truhe. The game changes all the time, I can remember a time a Nos Setup was the win in Small Gang PVP, a extra ECM in the Meds was realy usefull and MWDs was not the common Fitting on any Ship. EvE changes all the time. Im not complaying about the Mega in paticular, more about the reduced choice in Fitting and Ships. Originally by: Delichon Eve is growing, and now solo-PVP is officially dead and buried. Some people may still pursue the "hard mode", yet they are the exception that just amplifies the rule. Numbers-game is the defining factor now. Suddenly tank changed from the "negative DPS" concept to the measly "number of seconds before you die to focus fire" concept. BS that used to active tank hundreds of DPS are now useless - as the DPS of the focus fire is measured in thousands rather than hundreds. Number of cap ships is growing. Capital involvement can render almost any slow gang next to useless - as it takes 1 ship with cyno field to counter them. So im mostly performing a dead art form? Well fair deal. People allways interested in diffrent things. Numbers grow and gangs also but there are still people that want to something more, something diffrent, something that relay puts a presure on you. PVP still happens outside of 0.0 and is fare more fun in Low Sec in my Opinion. Originally by: Delichon Nano was inveted to overcome the said issues. After the nano will be nerfed, the majority will probably adopt Burn Eden tactics of cloaking Ravens, as this + scout would be pretty much the only way to gather killmails while not getting blobbed and hotdroped. This or logon traps. I am not trying to advocate the nano-mechanics, I just want like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that EVE mechanics in general are responsible for the current gameplay. Nanos are just the fever indicating the influenza, but not the influenza itself. Again you only looking at 0.0 PVP. Think of People that are realy out there for a fight and for fun instead of using traps to get easy kills. There was good PVP before all the need to nano up Ships and there will be after it. PVP will change it will not stop, no game change did that. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.29 11:27:00 - [50] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 29/05/2008 10:07:26 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 29/05/2008 10:03:37 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 29/05/2008 10:03:03 Originally by: Rising Fenix In my most humble rookie opinion, I think there should be a new Tech 2 ship that specializes in catching faster ships. Make em tough and expensive, but give some huge bonuses to Webs and Speed, allowing them to catch up to and Web those damn Nano'ers! Cheers, Fenix Sounds familiar...hmmmmm..... Webs....... Huge web bonus..... Nahhh....couldn't be the coughRapiercoughHuginncoughcough* Nahhhhhh EDIT Serious note re:Huginn/Rapier Recon V=40km webs (standard T2....silly range with CS boosts and faction) Speed anywhere from 2500-5000km/s depending on fit Relatively tough/survivable via buffer/cloak/range dictating Expensive Hits all your high notes Last Edit These threads are silly *Really last edit* Solo>small gang>nanoblob>most of EvE BLOB Fun meter pegs left if you couldn't guess. Speed gangs are how small numbers take on crappy NPC-er's masquerading as combat pilots in giant laggy bubbly null-sec. I bet if you really tried, you could get down to 1 word per line. Oh, and of course, you'd want to follow it up with elipses. Yes, I'm sure that'd make your post much more readable. Normally I hate grammar ****s, but goddamn man, at least try to write sentences.
Amelia Blackheart	Posted - 2008.05.29 20:07:00 - [51] My point is that the nerf syndrome ruins games. Changing the rules of a game after it is well into play is a bad idea. Putting the responsibility of "balanced" pvp on the game mechanics and not on the players will never work. Skilled players will adapt and find a new niche which will in turn cause people to call for nerfs. History repeats itself. As long as these calls are answered the game will slowly cheapen and its best players will slowly get frustrated and leave. It isn't as much about the current state of the game as about the current state of players' mentality. Adapt and survive. You feel this corners you into one playstyle? Your solution would be to corner others into yours. When will we stop changing the rules?
Rastigan Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.29 20:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Amelia Blackheart 6. Players are unlikely to cancel their subscriptions because they can not beat a nano-gang. On the other hand, players are very likely to give up on EVE if the mechanics are unstable. If a player can not trust that his money and time are wisely invested, he will think twice before renewing his subscription. People quit when they nerfed the Myrmidon, Eos, RSD, Sniping, EM/EXP resists,NOS,Carriers,etc.. ?
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.29 20:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Amelia Blackheart 6. Players are unlikely to cancel their subscriptions because they can not beat a nano-gang. On the other hand, players are very likely to give up on EVE if the mechanics are unstable. If a player can not trust that his money and time are wisely invested, he will think twice before renewing his subscription. People quit when they nerfed the Myrmidon, Eos, RSD, Sniping, EM/EXP resists,NOS,Carriers,etc.. ? Lol, seriously. You really think there will be some mass exodus from the game because people can't handle the nerfing of their nano ships? Sure, people don't like nerfs, but it's not the end of the world. Surely you can come up with a better argument for not nerfing nano's than that flimsy excuse.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.05.29 21:04:00 - [54] Edited by: Gimpb on 29/05/2008 21:04:46 I'd agree that it's not nearly as bad as it's made out to be, but it would be nice if the whole nano game were a bit more fleshed-out. Frig hulls can reach the speed but more or less have to steer clear of nanoed cruisers because turning that MWD on and getting within 30 km of a cruiser with low transversal (which you can't really help if you're after a nano) is... well... you know. So it's more or less a game that only T2 cruisers and tricky dictors (not overt ones) can play a part in, other ships can't tackle them... so it does kinda suck that it'll be a couple months of skill points before you can do jack about it from when you decide you'd like to be able to fight it. At the same time, it's not hard to damage nanos and they can't really do jack to a BS-heavy fleet so the things they're able to attack effectively are fairly limited. The way I see it, something is needed between ceptors and recons/HACs... something like the new faction cruisers on sisi or assault frigates. After all, it only makes sense that assault ships would generally be between interceptors and heavy assault ships in speed. So I'm not suggesting that the playstyle be nerfed, I'm suggesting that it be expanded so more can participate in it. That will remove much of the frustration of not being able to do jack about it without making it any less effective. It would make it a less "elite" club, but having more ship types involved would also make it more interesting.
Amelia Blackheart	Posted - 2008.05.29 21:06:00 - [55] Edited by: Amelia Blackheart on 29/05/2008 21:12:47 Read the rest of the post Boz?
Amelia Blackheart	Posted - 2008.05.29 21:24:00 - [56] Originally by: Ethan Fletcher Yes, and the OP states: "anti-nano gangs and ships are perfectly viable, currently in play and effective". But the point here is that in order to counter nano ships, you have to fit specifically for that, effectively eliminating 90% of the variation that is (and should be) possible when equipping your ship. Using different modules and rigs (many quite cheap), nano ships can now push the envelope into what in mathematics is called a "corner-solution', where there is no other way to end up and no better alternative. This causes everyone to end up in the same corner, because every player has the same tools to work with. The end result is that nano and anti-nano becomes all the game is about, and surely that can't have been the original idea with introducing hundreds of different ships and thousands of different modules. It's all about balance....(again) This doesn't hold true if you are flying in a gang. You will need to include anti-nano ships to engage a nano gang, but you don't have to fly them.
Rastigan Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.29 21:26:00 - [57] Originally by: Gimpb So I'm not suggesting that the playstyle be nerfed, I'm suggesting that it be expanded so more can participate in it. That will remove much of the frustration of not being able to do jack about it without making it any less effective. It would make it a less "elite" club, but having more ship types involved would also make it more interesting. /qft
slothe Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.29 21:55:00 - [58] Edited by: slothe on 29/05/2008 21:59:21 Originally by: Sokratesz They already nerfed nano, HARD, doubt they will do it again. not really, when they introduced the new naniofibres they realised in combination with other factors larger ships go way too fast... i.e. battleships. the modules were way overpowerd and needed re-aligning. "nanos" (generic) dont need nerfing as a cocept. polycarbs need nerfing as they are undeniably too good (statistically)
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.05.29 21:59:00 - [59] People do fit for speed, as this is the only viable option against BLOBS ffs! The nerfing of WCS was a good thing, as fitting them should hinder you in fighting... you sure are not committing to a fight by fitting them. Speed was nerfed for battleships, which was also a good thing, but no cruiser is going faster then an interceptor, if you put in Snakes in both pilots heads. Speed-Setups can be very expensive and most cruisers besides the Vagabond are not very good without Polycarbon Rigs to start with. Stop comparing nano-Gangs to solo-ratters or the like, as they would've died to a standard-gang aswell. Roaming in non-nano gangs (read: max 20 pilots in battleships + support) is a no-brainer in hostile territory, as you'll get dropped 5 carriers on top of you at the next gate. If we cut it down, so that nano-ships are no longer an option, then we'll see 50% less combat in 0.0, as noone will be roaming in fear of camps and blobs. So we'll be reduced to blob vs. blob territorial warfare... oh what fun that'll be .
Amelia Blackheart	Posted - 2008.05.29 22:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Gimpb So I'm not suggesting that the playstyle be nerfed, I'm suggesting that it be expanded so more can participate in it. That will remove much of the frustration of not being able to do jack about it without making it any less effective. It would make it a less "elite" club, but having more ship types involved would also make it more interesting. /qft You can train to fly any ship you want in EVE. If you want to engage a nano gang, and you don't want to fly an anti-nano ship then you will have to gang with people who do. Here are a few of the anti-nano ships I know of: Rapier, Huginn, Curse, Hyena and any nano ship that has a web. I do appreciate the constructive post. Just trying to show that the tools are there. I don't think we can expect the game to cater to any one ship we want to fly. The ships are there, we have to adapt. Otherwise the game mechanics become unstable. Wouldn't you want the game to stay one way so you could create a training plan and stick to it knowing the mechanics weren't going to change after you'd spent time and money developing your strategy? For example, if you you look at the way the game is now, are you going to adapt? If not are you going to count on an eventual nerf of nano? If you do finally decide to adapt and fly an anti-nano ship to kill all those nano-bastards, spend 6 months and $90 training for an anti-nano ship and then nano is nerfed and everybody abandons their nano ships... wouldn't that be a bit frustrating? Stability of game mechanics is my primary concern.

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