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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:24:00 -
[31]
Jade, maybe you should just propose that CCP give you some 0.0 space and a bunch of money. Not really much point in trying to hide it with :words:
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:28:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Jeirth Got my support, I'd like to see Eve continually changing, static resource placement doesn't support that.
There has to be some static resources to differentiate one system from another. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Chodie101
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:21:00 -
[33]
I'd love to see the RP explanation for a moon, formed over millennia, suddenly having a geological miracle occur and it's entire mineral composition changing at random!
I personally prefer the idea of moons remaining static because it better reflects the real world that we can all relate to - For example look at all those lucky Arabs in Saudi who have all the oil! (Dysprosium) whilst us poor sods in the UK only have coal! (Atmospheric Gases).
It's a fact of life that some regions of Earth are richer in resources that are high in value than others and (no matter how much we wish for it) oil fields are not going to randomly up sticks and appear under a different country - I don't see why Eve's resource distribution should be any different.
However, that said - there is something that can realistically shift and change, which is technological advancement - in the same way we are looking to achieve the same ends oil does for us with other things (biofuels etc) how about some kind of RP technological advancement which enables us to make synthetic dysprosium by mining chains of other materials?
This could be set up with a similar idea to invention and t2 bpo, where a dyspro moon-holder still has the best moon (like a t2 bpo holder still has the best resource) as he gets dyspro directly from his moon, but other players can make synthetic dysprosium with a larger time / pos network investment and correspondingly smaller profit margin in exactly the same way you can build t2 gear but with more work and smaller profit than the bpo owner does.
I'm not necessarily proposing that as an idea (and I don't even know if I'd support it if someone else did!) but it would seem more realistic than minerals magically jumping off of one moon, flying across space and landing on another one....
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:42:00 -
[34]
Permanent Main Deposits + Depleting Random Minor Deposits = Stability without Stagnation
I have already posted a way to achieve this, link further up this thread.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar Crystal Ship
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:16:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 13/08/2008 15:25:08
Originally by: Chodie101 I'd love to see the RP explanation for a moon, formed over millennia, suddenly having a geological miracle occur and it's entire mineral composition changing at random!
I personally prefer the idea of moons remaining static because it better reflects the real world that we can all relate to - For example look at all those lucky Arabs in Saudi who have all the oil! (Dysprosium) whilst us poor sods in the UK only have coal! (Atmospheric Gases).
It's a fact of life that some regions of Earth are richer in resources that are high in value than others and (no matter how much we wish for it) oil fields are not going to randomly up sticks and appear under a different country - I don't see why Eve's resource distribution should be any different.
Actually, the situation in the real world is closer to that analogy than you think. While Old Fields get depleted, new ones are being constantly located. At the moment, the primary barriers to extracting all the discovered Oil Reserves is Politics and Technology with most of the discovered reserves being in Remote Areas with unique problems associated with their extraction.
For example, Britain has extracted a good amount of the oil from the North Sea over the Last 40 Years, there is still a huge amount in the ground still to be extracted however, a large proportion of that oil is simply too difficult or uneconomical to extract with the old Big Oil Company Business Models. It's why smaller companies are making a killing at the moment with the Fields that the likes of Shell and BP won't touch. Likewise, a lot of oil is now being located on the West Side of Scotland in the Atlantic Ocean requiring innovations in Deep Water Rigs.
So it's less a case of the deposits magically moving and more a case of old deposits drying up and new deposits being discovered, often in areas that the old survey equipment either couldn't reach, couldn't process or simply missed.
This is compounded in EVE by the simple fact that each Moon Survey is completed within 10 Minutes, Deposits being missed would therefore be easy to explain as errors in the original scans (Which only pick up the Most Obvious Results in the scanned area)
Conversely, as an idea you could come up with a structure that you could anchor (Survey Sattelites?) once you had your Moon Mining POS up and running that would continually scan for fresh deposits on that moon thus prolonging the Lifespan of the materials you're mining.
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:32:00 -
[36]
Those that have the really good moons have already won the race, so to speak.
They had to fight for them, and now reap the rewards of milking them. The problem with this model is that any new-comer alliance that wishes to challenge them needs those same moons in order to be able to keep up with a long campaign of attrition. As long as old, established alliances have isk-fountains at their disposal, they will only truly be challenged by other, old, establish alliances.
By setting up the moons in the way they did, CCP basically created player run factions, not alliances. In order to challenge the old guard, one needs the resources to match.
Make every moon mineral available in every moon in the game, either in the same amounts, or do some sort of breakdown with 50% of the moons containing the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th rarest mins, and the other 50% containing the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th rarest mins... however you do it, break the monopoly.
Under this system, alliances will still have incentive to conquer more space, because that will mean more moons in total, but the bigger (and ungainly) they get, the harder their logistics become, so some alliances may want to pare down some of their space. This makes it necessary to balance expansion with sustainment, and the same group of 500 guys doesn't own one quarter of conquerable space anymore.
Think about it: If you have a small, lean, well-trusted, everybody-knows-everybody-in-real-life alliance, they will be able to take more space then an equal sized alliance that may not know each other. Similarly, huge allinaces containing thousands of people will have to strive to make sure they can trust their pos managers if they want to hold on to all of their space.
After a few months of this level of ass-pain required to hold massive chunks of space, it will be interesting to see who still does. I think it is totally realistic that some of the old guard will still prosper under this system, hell some might even benefit from the new system, but the old, huge, lazy alliances will surely crumble if they can't step up to the new challanges of maintaining their space.
Who's with me? |
Aero089
Exiled. Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:44:00 -
[37]
Cutting my own fingers by supporting this but hey. Didn't like static plexes, don't like static moons. Maybe it's worth training Astrometrics V for this :) ---
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teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:16:00 -
[38]
Edited by: teji on 13/08/2008 16:19:42 Oh god this is dumb. Stop making proposals on 0.0 which you obviously have no idea about.
How about this
Let's have agents that you have improved your standings with just up and vanish. Let's have BPO's just randomly vanish from your hangar and show up in my hangar.
there is no :facepalm: big enough for this idea.
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:23:00 -
[39]
Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 13/08/2008 16:19:42 Oh god this is dumb. Stop making proposals on 0.0 which you obviously have no idea about.
How about this
Let's have agents that you have improved your standings with just up and vanish. Let's have BPO's just randomly vanish from your hangar and show up in my hangar.
there is no :facepalm: big enough for this idea.
And the old guard weighs in...
Interesting.
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Toman Jerich
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Grim Mercy Edited by: Grim Mercy on 13/08/2008 15:41:22 Those that have the really good moons have already won the race, so to speak.
They had to fight for them, and now reap the rewards of milking them. The problem with this model is that any new-comer alliance that wishes to challenge them needs those same moons in order to be able to keep up with a long campaign of attrition. As long as old, established alliances have isk-fountains at their disposal, they will only truly be challenged by other, old, establish alliances.
By setting up the moons in the way they did, CCP basically created player run factions, not alliances. In order to challenge the old guard, one needs the resources to match.
Make every moon mineral available in every moon in the game, either in the same amounts, or do some sort of breakdown with 50% of the moons containing the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th rarest mins, and the other 50% containing the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th rarest mins... however you do it, break the monopoly.
Under this system, alliances will still have incentive to conquer more space, because that will mean more moons in total, but the bigger (and ungainly) they get, the harder their logistics become, so some alliances may want to pare down some of their space. This makes it necessary to balance expansion with sustainment, and the same group of 500 guys doesn't own one quarter of conquerable space anymore.
Think about it: If you have a small, lean, well-trusted, everybody-knows-everybody-in-real-life alliance, they will be able to take more space then an equal sized alliance that may not know each other. Similarly, huge allinaces containing thousands of people will have to strive to make sure they can trust their pos managers if they want to hold on to all of their space.
After a few months of this level of ass-pain required to hold massive chunks of space, it will be interesting to see who still does. I think it is totally realistic that some of the old guard will still prosper under this system, hell some might even benefit from the new system, but the old, huge, lazy alliances will surely crumble if they can't step up to the new challanges of maintaining their space.
Who's with me?
Edit: About the break down of minerals in the "every-mineral moons"... have like 25k units of the most comming/least expensive min per 500 units of the middle minerals per 1 unit of the rare minerals, or something like that. Not those numbers exactly, but along those lines.
Aw, it looks like somebody is mad as hell over the T2 BPO thread that Toman made.
It looks like somebody is terribly, terribly afraid of losing their cash cow.
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:34:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Toman Jerich
Aw, it looks like somebody is mad as hell over the T2 BPO thread that Toman made.
It looks like somebody is terribly, terribly afraid of losing their cash cow.
Which came first, my reply in this thread, or the whine thread about the BPOs?
Goonswarm: Forum-warrioring at it's finest.
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teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:40:00 -
[42]
Make no mistake. Static moon mining is one of the FEW things that encourages combat in 0.0 at this point. Arguing anything else is delusional.
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:44:00 -
[43]
What about some sort of system that encourages maintenance of conquered space? It would make 0.0 more of a "new frontier" where new entities could compete, rather than "Join BoB, Goons, RA, or NC."
No doubt the 0.0 power blocs would absolutely hate this idea, as it would burden them with having to work to keep what they have. But how many people (people, not characters) are actively in 0.0? And how many of all of those "high-sec, carebare, low-risk high-reward, carebear pussies" would go to 0.0 if it didn't mean having to join an old, established alliance (who, by the grace of time alone, got there first).
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SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:50:00 -
[44]
I think the main reason why CCP hasn't made Moon mining dynamic is because they know all too well that you'll end up with MORE POSES.
Think about it for a second. The most logical way to overcome dynamic moons would be to have a large POS or two running the reactions and small moons mining the moon minerals at the dynamic moons. No one is going to unanchor a large POS with all the the fixings to move to a new moon. They are all going to have a central place to operate. The fact Jump Freighters make it easier now to move minerals from POS to POS. So logistics like issues are kind of a non-issue now.
This would lead to people not bothering with the 60 minutes unanchor time to recover a small amount of assets, Small POS, Moon Miner, Silo. People would probably leave the POS up anyway in case something good came along on that moon. People would have to attack and kill the old powerless POS before they deploy their own.
The way CCP would combat this would be to make POS unanchor times a lot faster, because you KNOW they don't want thousands of SMALL POSES all over the place.
This would in turn break 0.0 warfare. The ability to quickly move a POS makes it easier to defend locations..
Although I'd support something to make Moon Mining not a static as it is, I don't think dynamic or depleted resource are the solution.
Amarr for Life |
teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:53:00 -
[45]
Edited by: teji on 13/08/2008 16:54:01
Originally by: Grim Mercy What about some sort of system that encourages maintenance of conquered space? It would make 0.0 more of a "new frontier" where new entities could compete, rather than "Join BoB, Goons, RA, or NC."
The reasons that new entities normally don't show up in 0.0 is that the majority of space in 0.0 is absolutely terrible and the small amount of good stuff is already defended.
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Jemaia
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:54:00 -
[46]
Not supported
1.) Moving PoSes is inhumane treatment of logistics personnel as it stands, having to move EVERY moon mining pos once every 3 months on top of the logistics nightmare is asking for people to simply quit the game outright.
2.) As has been pointed out on the parody threads there are other forms of static income.
3.) You being the one to propose such things is akin to a person claiming all people with blue eyes and brown hair (0.0 population) should be locked in a cage (PoS setups) and poked with sticks for your amusement, it's a sick sadistic sort of entertainment you probably come up with while sitting at home when you aren't role playing a lady of the night for some well hung caldari stud.
4.) Over 2/3rds of your post is posturing with a sort of assumed setup for ad hominem towards anyone that would disagree. "Would CCP be prepared to shake up politics and over-stabilized borders in 0.0" anyone who doesn't support your form of torture is automatically assumed to be for over stabilized borders and not necessarily against your half witted ideas on things you yourself will never have to experience. It's akin to the whole abortion issue one side identifies as Pro-choice and the other Pro-life as if either is truly against freedom in choice or life itself.
This sort of writing should be an automatic put off, if your argument cannot stand on it's own 2 feet without such posturing it deserves to die a cold death. If it stands only because people are too moronic to see through such posturing then it is deception.
Sometimes I wonder who really wants to destroy this game, Jade Constantine or GOONS, you seem to be the most intent on destruction thus far.
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: teji
Originally by: Grim Mercy What about some sort of system that encourages maintenance of conquered space? It would make 0.0 more of a "new frontier" where new entities could compete, rather than "Join BoB, Goons, RA, or NC."
The reasons that new entities normally don't show up in 0.0 is that the majority of space in 0.0 is absolutely terrible.
...absolutely terrible because the few good moons that make it worth while are well defended.
Even though the proposal Jade put forth has a ton of problems on it's own, it still addresses the fact that there is a huge imbalance between "Those that Have" and "Those that Want" and there is little recourse for anyone other than another huge 0.0 power bloc to do anything about it. It's basically class war; the aristocracy controls the wealth, and the peasants revolt. I think Jade is just trying to come up with some way to make it possible to redistribute the wealth (although, his idea does suggest some sort of random reassigning, rather than a way to make it so those not in power bloc may be able to even think about contesting for it).
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Innominate
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:04:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jade Constantine I hate successful 0.0 alliances. My T2 production business should be made more profitable. If you're not grandfathered into the T2 production business with BPOs you have no right to possess a long term source of income.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:16:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Originally by: Toman Jerich
Aw, it looks like somebody is mad as hell over the T2 BPO thread that Toman made.
It looks like somebody is terribly, terribly afraid of losing their cash cow.
Which came first, my reply in this thread, or the whine thread about the BPOs?
Goonswarm: Forum-warrioring at it's finest.
Yes and this thread and everything associdated with Jade Constainte isn't ****ing stupid enough with this joke of the CSM called the Jade Constinte Power Hour.
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:23:00 -
[50]
Jade, stick to "Hardcore mode" proposals. |
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:39:00 -
[51]
Dumb idea, Jade. Alliances did the work, they make the effort, they control the space. Many of the locations of these moons are well known, so get your fleet of puppets to try and take them over.
Moons are what they are, and I find it hard to consider any of them one day, magically, changing into another. I'm all for expanding the supply of rare moons, but leave that to the devs and when they decide to expand Eve... it constantly has been expanding, so when new systems come out... new moons too.
--------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:43:00 -
[52]
Jade, I went and checked the Features and Ideas Discussion forum, and I find no thread with many supporting replies. Is there a reason why this Feature and Idea wasn't posted there first to get feedback from the general EvE populace? |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Hertford Jade, I went and checked the Features and Ideas Discussion forum, and I find no thread with many supporting replies. Is there a reason why this Feature and Idea wasn't posted there first to get feedback from the general EvE populace?
LOL! Since when do people check with the Features and Ideas forum before posting their stuff in the Assembly Hall?
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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misplaced archaeology
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:05:00 -
[54]
Not supported.
Originally by: Jemaia Not supported
1.) Moving PoSes is inhumane treatment of logistics personnel as it stands, having to move EVERY moon mining pos once every 3 months on top of the logistics nightmare is asking for people to simply quit the game outright.
This
Quote: 2.) As has been pointed out on the parody threads there are other forms of static income.
Yes
Quote: 3.) You being the one to propose such things is akin to a person claiming all people with blue eyes and brown hair (0.0 population) should be locked in a cage (PoS setups) and poked with sticks for your amusement, it's a sick sadistic sort of entertainment you probably come up with while sitting at home when you aren't role playing a lady of the night for some well hung caldari stud.
What
Quote: 4.) Over 2/3rds of your post is posturing with a sort of assumed setup for ad hominem towards anyone that would disagree. "Would CCP be prepared to shake up politics and over-stabilized borders in 0.0" anyone who doesn't support your form of torture is automatically assumed to be for over stabilized borders and not necessarily against your half witted ideas on things you yourself will never have to experience. It's akin to the whole abortion issue one side identifies as Pro-choice and the other Pro-life as if either is truly against freedom in choice or life itself.
I hate freedom. (there how goony is that? goony goons goon gooned)
Quote: This sort of writing should be an automatic put off, if your argument cannot stand on it's own 2 feet without such posturing it deserves to die a cold death. If it stands only because people are too moronic to see through such posturing then it is deception.
Sometimes I wonder who really wants to destroy this game, Jade Constantine or GOONS, you seem to be the most intent on destruction thus far.
Hm.
Originally by: Innominate
Originally by: Jade Constantine I hate successful 0.0 alliances. My T2 production business should be made more profitable. If you're not grandfathered into the T2 production business with BPOs you have no right to possess a long term source of income.
This edit seems a little extreme, but sadly it also looks accurate.
It used to be complexes, now it's Dyspro. T2 BPOs are a bit less profitable due to invention, but they're still quite the isk printing machine... and it still would be if this change were put in. They might even improve.
Grim Mercy: One of the things about t2 bpos is that there's even more of a 'huge imbalance between "Those that Have" and "Those that Want" and there is little recourse for anyone other than another huge 0.0 power bloc to do anything about it' except that not even a 'huge 0.0 power bloc' can do anything about it. The t2 BPOs belong to those that got into the game early. End of story, unless they actually want to get rid of them.
I wouldn't have any problem with increasing the viability of mining lowends and/or decreasing just how much the Dyspro isk fountains are worth, but it seems like the Jade's proposal is an attempt to nerf someone else's alliance level income while keeping his own intact.
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Karentaki
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:45:00 -
[55]
I actually support this - currently moon mining is too static, and rich, powerful alliances will always be rich and powerful due to the moons they control, except in rare circumstances such as internal disputes, or overwhelming offensice action. ============= RE: The suicide nerf
Originally by: agent apple I believe I can safely speak for many of us when I say,
Dear Devs, Go Back to WOW
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.08.13 20:21:00 -
[56]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 13/08/2008 20:23:42 Sorry, dont buy this.
Random moons means people will bunker because eventually they will get a pimp moon. This discorages pvp and invasions.
However the current system is broken in creating pos wars which are the most hated part of eve.
Solution?
Exploration. Have miners able to gather these stuff from exploration belts or from mining planets or suns directly. Get rid of Station NPC style income. Promote active resource generation in risky space so pvpers can send small raiding gangs to hunt insted of superblobs to fight pos's uner 20 titans doomsdaying under cynojammer crap.
E.G
Now - POS goes up. Zero encoragement for raiders/small pvpers. Only superblobers attack POS's for their isk. Static resources = broken gameplay
What should happen - perhaps people take out exhumer lvl5 ships or whatever to mine(or gas collect) 0.0 suns. This is very risky since any pvper can enter system and warp to sun to guarentee a fight. Perhaps the miners get a mixture of 0.0 minerals such as dyso and prom (to keep RP fans happy, condensation for gas collectors)
Either way - Make Moons mining no longer AFK NPC isk printer that requiers a superblob affair to remove by pomoting the poor eve member to mine suns/planets to econimically compete with Mining towers. This promotes the poor eve member and helps him make the riches that previously only CEO's who kept the moon isk had, but also it promotes the solo pvper again and the small raiding gang!
What do you think?
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Danyael Tyren
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.13 20:30:00 -
[57]
Guys, I have a huge pile T2 BPO's lying here, and invention kind of moved my profits from Monster HUGE, to just HUGE. How can I move it back up?
Hey, let's make getting the materials for T2 ships even more difficult and expensive, and even more of a logistical nightmare than it is currently. I don't really know anything about 0.0 or how moon mining works, but if we make the mats randomly disappear and pop up elsehwere, that will slow down things enough we will be able to cash in!
Now, I just need more :words: ... ------ NAPs (nap means we wonĘt kill you today, maybe, but thatĘs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.08.13 23:06:00 -
[58]
Aye!
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
HCIChicken
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Posted - 2008.08.14 00:18:00 -
[59]
I wouldn't support this idea even if ccp made it quicker to setup and tear down poses, as well as scan moons. Currently there are about 2-4k moons in a region, and I recently scanned over 1300 of them in one of our regions. This took over 40 hours of nonstop scanning.
This idea is horrible and you should stop posting.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.08.14 00:27:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Jeirth Got my support, I'd like to see Eve continually changing, static resource placement doesn't support that.
There has to be some static resources to differentiate one system from another.
There are, location and number of moons.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
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