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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.01 05:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Goumindong on 01/06/2008 05:50:23
 Originally by: Bane Glorious
So yeah, give the thumbs up if you think Minmatar BS need a little help.
The issue is neither Minmatar BS nor is it Large Autocannons. Two of the Minmatar BS are perfectly fine in their current iterations when using Autocannons[The Maelstrom and Typhoon].
Booting those will give an unnecessary boost to both those two ships which need nothing as well as may impact the balance of other ships(as autocannons are the near universal choice of supplementary/unbonused turret)
The problem is only in the tempest and only due to the Tempest not being properly engineered to deal with the inherent problems of low optimal high falloff weapns. That is, Large Autocannons are to be used within a tight optimal window, and are fit on a ship class which is heavy and cumbersome, this makes it take more time for the ship to achieve that tight window which reduces its effectiveness. Boosting the weapons directly changes the racial characteristics towards a more homogeneous form, changing the ships to be less heavy and cumbersome pushes out smaller ships as the larger one hedges out the "agility and speed" niche filled by smaller ones.
You should not bring this issue to CCP.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.01 20:41:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 01/06/2008 16:16:19
Hey, hey Goumidong. Shut it. 
We know you wouldn't like this change as it's not buffing your precious Amarr.
His suggested fix was buffing the Tempest to be quicker and more agile. How are you interpreting that as mindless Amarrian partisanship?
Actually its 100 cube bandwidth, 300 cube bay that I am more pushing for. The Phoon and Maelstrom have been engineered properly and are fine ships when using AC's. One of these will use only ACs in its high slots. So clearly there isn't a problem with the weapons.
And if there is it means you have to nerf the phoon and the Maelstrom in your quest to boost the tempest. Its a lot easier to just boost the tempest.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.01 22:56:00 -
[3]
"We can ignore the quality of autocannons on the Maelstrom because it it is slow and sluggish"
Man what?
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 03:50:00 -
[4]
If large AC's suck, but minmatar BS that use large AC's don't suck when fitting large AC's, then large AC's don't suck.
So if only one of them is sub-optimal when fitting large ACs and the others aren't then the problem isn't in the ACs its in the ship that isn't doing its job properly.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cilppiz
Originally by: Keela Bahni
Edited by: Keela Bahni on 02/06/2008 12:46:38
Mael does 800 DPS from turrets alone with 3 Gyro II, 800 IIs and RF EMP.
I can only get 765DPS out of said setup (you must be using some HW's on top of EFT all lvl5 skills), but I get 831dps if I make it 3x MagStabs and Neutrons and CN AM.
One could think AC fitted Mael would outdps Blaster fitted Mael after the 25% ROF bonus those AC's get, dont you think?
Nah, AC's are just fine 
Something is wrong with your character, i get 805 DPS at all 5s with no hardwirings.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 16:15:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/06/2008 16:16:51
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 02/06/2008 11:50:37
Originally by: Goumindong
If large AC's suck, but minmatar BS that use large AC's don't suck when fitting large AC's, then large AC's don't suck.
So if only one of them is sub-optimal when fitting large ACs and the others aren't then the problem isn't in the ACs its in the ship that isn't doing its job properly.
No, it does mean they suck but the ship was compensated through another method (extra drone damage for example). I'd happily lose a drone from Maelstrom if it got more damage from its turrets especially if it got more range (ie from per-tier system). Tempest / Typhoon don't need anything taken away if large AC's were improved.
So Large Blasters suck and need to be boosted because the Megathron would suck if it only had 50 cubes of drone bay?
That is ********.
[fake edit: 855 for blasters on a Maelstrom, but the ACs have a whole **** tonne more range. If the ACs are using Hail its 890 DPS on them, and you can easily fit 3 falloff rigs for more range than a blaster ship could ever hope to have]
Originally by: Yorda
Last time I checked 805 was less than 831 so his point is still valid.
Only if blasters don't use cap, are as easy to fit as the 800mm IIs and have 30km falloff with similar PG use[Hint, they don't]
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Your being idiotic. I didn't say anything like that so stop with the "what if" rubbish because its nothing like the situation described. Maelstrom has the max number of turrets possible and a ROF bonus so only way to give it more damage is through drone bay.
Typhoons AC damage is pathetic, Tempests AC damage is pathetic, Maelstroms isn't bad so if AC damage was increased (such as through the ammo) and any other changes like falloff per tier that would help Maelstrom the most then knocking a heavy drone off it would balance the whole lot up.
No, that is exactly what you said.
"Domis blaster damage is pathetic. Megathrons blaster damage is pathetic. Hyperions isn't bad so if blaster damage was increased (such as through the ammo) and any other changes that would help hyperion, the most then knocking a heavy drone off it would balance the whole lot up."
Bull ******* ****. All ships need to be considered in their entirety. Two of the ships that use large ACs are fine and/or very good. One of the ships is not.
That doesn't mean there is a problem with large ACs it means there is a problem with the one ship which is not fine.
Or hell, here is a better example:
Idiots: Waaa, large lasers suck, my Apoc is terrible!
Not Idiots: No, the Geddon and Abaddon are fine, the Apoc sucks. So its not the large lasers, its the apoc.
If you took all the drones off the Geddon it would suck too, but that doesn't mean large lasers suck, it means that if you took off all the drones, the Geddon would suck.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Laughing but what you just said isn't what you said either, your changing the statement and claiming its the same.
The fact the ships being compared are nothing like your comparison is obviously beyond you but keep trying to make the same point with increasing hostility until no one can be bothered to discuss things with you like normal Laughing.
What i'm saying is more damage should come from AC's than the other sources (drones and missiles) than the current balance, they're the racial weapon after all. Increasing the AC performance will help Tempest especially and also the Typhoon a bit but will also shift some of the Maelstroms damage to its turrets.
Why should more damage come from ACs?
Why change 3 ships and 1 or more weapon systems in order to fix 1 ship? Its ********, when you balance you change as little as possible in order to get the desired result in order to lower the chances of unintended side effects.
And no, the ships being compared are very similar. If you took the drones away from either of them they would suck. Its the same problem with the pest except it never had them in the first place.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.02 20:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Yorda
You might be a mwding minmatar ship but you're still not going to go more than 1k/sec in a none nano setup, any cruiser with a mwd will be able to outrun you. It's just not worth cutting your cap in half for a 30% dps increase when you can get the extreme falloff of barrage. Especially when you're in a relatively slow ship.
It really depends on what you are doing and what you are fighting. There is a lot of benefit to be had by changing ammos to a shorter range higher damage option. And there is only one MWDing minnie ship that goes under 1kms, and it can fit 3 falloff rigs easily to hit 15km falloff. Easily enough for most engagements[especially when a lot of targets like blaster ships will be wanting to come to you].
Hail isn't good for what we do, but neither are blasters of any sort and that doesn't mean both don't have a use.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 01:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
You realise that even with ROF bonus a 800mm T2 AC is lower than a unbonused neutron blaster with both behind a unbonused seige launcher.
And this matters because? 800mm T2 AC on a Mael will do more damage with hail than it will with neutron blasters. With EMP the ship will have up to 30km falloff.
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The main issue with AC's is the lack of reason to upgrade per tier. Tracking between Dual 425's vs Electrons is 8% advantage and 800's vs Neutrons is practically identicle. You get no extra range besides a few hundred KM optimal unlike other races where larger tier means significantly more optimal and falloff.
So now you are complaining that your low tier weapons are too good? That it hurts others more when downsizing? So we should nerf 650 ACs and 425s?
1 damage mod on a Mega with electrons does 608 damage with no drones to 3+7km(CN AM). 0 damage mods on a tempest with 425s, siege, and hail does 594 damage with no drones to 2.4+10km. [plus launcher damage]. That is as much damage with more range.
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The difference in our comparisons is the huge difference in damage source, it would be quite clear that the weapon system that already gives the best damage per turret wouldn't need it increasing further. For example 3 gyro 800mm on tempest is 125 dps/turret with 3 mfs neutrons 133 dps/turret (hyper or mega) so is not only behind on dps/turret, its behind on turrets and slots available for damage mods unless you use a 4 slot shield tank.
Ahh yes, lets conveniently ignore the 6 lows on the hyperion and the 2 free high slots fir missile launchers[which do not fit in any fit on the Mega].
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But whatever, there's still a lot of tweaking needed of the ammos and tier system of AC's without even changing the end damage amounts of the ships.
So the idea is to make the ammos do more damage but not affect the final DPS of the ships?
Why nerf 2 things and buff something else when you could just buff one thing?
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 17:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Are you being dense on purpose? I never suggested using blasters on a maelstrom (that was someone else). My point is if even a ROF bonus on AC's is behind unbonused weapon how far behind do you think it is vs a bonused weapon?
And this matters because? Oh wait, it doesn't because it only matters how it performs on the ships and it performs just fine on the ships except the tempest.
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WTF did I say they were to good? Clearly the point of this topic is flying over your head, you realise how idiotic you look right now suggesting nerfing AC's? If people are gonna say "but AC's have X advantage" they might want to actually look and not just go by rumour because they'll find the advantages arn't what they think.
1+1=2. You see you are complaining that there is no reason to upgrade your weapons. Well ****, that is the same as getting more for downgrading. You are essentially complaining that your low tier weapons are too good. If you want to lose range like blasters and lasers do, and if you want to gain less tracking like blasters and lasers do then fine i guess. Its ********, but its your decision.
The only reason to buff the top ends would be if the top ends were under performing. But we just showed that the top ends weren't under performing because we have a ship performing just fine with them.
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WTF did I compare end damage? I didn't bring drones into it either so why are you ignoring them if you bring missiles into it?
No, you didn't and that is why your argument is ********. If you took the drones away from the megathron it would suck balls because it would be doing ****ty dps at a ****tier range.
So with the tempest when you ignore its two other high slots that it can actually fit and ignore its drones it sure does look ****ty. And while its not great because it has deficiencies in those areas it means you can fix those areas to make the ship fine.
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Yes because the Hyperion doesn't have a better tank so can't afford to use one of its lows on a damage mod. And yes clearly when talking about damage per turret ignoring a unbonused weapon that isn't affected by the damage mods is bad... You do realize the launchers do less DPS per tempest/mega/hyper turret so actually bring the average of the fitted weapons down.
It doesn't matter if the average goes down if the final number goes up. And oh look, it does! Now if you are saying that the tempest ought to do more DPS than the Hyperion or Megathron you are just ********.
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My current idea is to not affect the raw damage amount but to reorder the damage types (or change the damage types of EMP) as the best ammo does not have the advantage it used to at the start of EVE and was given the lower raw damage amount because of.
No idea what 2 things am I meant to of suggested to nerf ?
If you move fusion/pp to 11 base you will just nerf the lot of them since hail is 14. And faction fusion isn't coming close.
The 2 things you would have to nerf would be the Phoon and the Maelstrom.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.04 02:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
There is a problem with autocannos, and not just large ones, but it is hard to address that issue without rethinking Minmatar ships altogether. The problem is you have to throw ship bonuses, rigs, and/or damage mods at them to make them effective. On top of that you generally have to use Barrage. No other weapon system requires so much extra help to simply function viably.
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Seriously? Maybe you should look at pulse lasers[scorch is a requirement as well as rigs, and damage bonuses and cap bonuses and...]. Or blasters which in the current situations almost never are valuable no matter what training you have?
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Also, Gaurm, you are partially correct: the Typhoon and Maelstrom do function. One works because it does not employ autocannos as a primary weapon system and the other function because it generally devotes 14 slots to making them work (usually 8 high, 3 low, and 3 rig). This should indicate there is a fundamental flaw with autocannos and that ships have to be engineered to overcome that inherent weakness.
And Large Pulse Lasers must suck because the Apoc has to dedicate 20 slots to make them good!
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.04 06:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Octavio Santillian
because this is not a thread about pulse lasers or blaster. I have made no arguments as to the viability of other weapon systems
Everything can only be valued relatively. If you are going to say something is "hard to train for" or "needs more work to be viable" then that must mean "its hard to train for compared to the alternatives" and "it needs more work to be as viable as all the others".
And its just not true. They aren't really any harder to train for than anything else. Blasters for low-sec small gang work maybe. But not lasers or a complete missile set.
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The Typhoon and the Maelstrom are function ships. I would propose, however, that the Typhoon is not an AC boat
Its irrelevant if it performs with them[and it does]. And the Maelstrom is an AC boat, and performs well with them.
There are some problems with AC's regarding things that can be done to make them more new character friendly(falloff bonus on the long range tech 1 ammo), and there are things that can be done to make the tech 2 ammo a bit more reasonable(nix the optimal penalty on hail), but there is no fundamental problem with auto cannons that need fixing. Just a (small) fundamental problem with the tempest.
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