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Frying Doom
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.03.13 22:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote: we're all gay
I would have said sheep. You all seem to follow The Mittani so blindly. Some of your members don't really seem to to know what he stands for in the CSM, other than Null Sec and Goonswarm.
But it is so nice to hear Members of a CSM candidates Alliance speaking so freely about their ideas. Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7!
http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 |
Carl Thunderthise
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2012.03.13 23:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
I'd like to know HOW Trebor collected the names of thousands of Eve characters without using some sort of bot program to hack the server. Which of course is against the EULA. I'm sure he didn't just visit every system in the game and write down who he saw... |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
1955
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Posted - 2012.03.14 00:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Carl Thunderthise wrote:I'd like to know HOW Trebor collected the names of thousands of Eve characters without using some sort of bot program to hack the server. Which of course is against the EULA. I'm sure he didn't just visit every system in the game and write down who he saw... Sigh... you see, but you do not observe, my dear Carl.
I shall reveal the blindingly obvious method I used after the election. 100% EULA compliant, of course. The Polls are open! Click here to vote for Trebor *-áMy Election Thread * Voter's Guide |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
72
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Posted - 2012.03.14 00:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
I am not a computer genius, nor am I someone who is into automatic gaming a.k.a. botting but even I can figure out how he got the names.
If you combine A+B in the right manner I am sure you come up with C.
It's not rocket science, you know. |
Omega Flames
Ardent Spirits Initiative Mercenaries
21
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Posted - 2012.03.14 05:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
Carl Thunderthise wrote:I'd like to know HOW Trebor collected the names of thousands of Eve characters without using some sort of bot program to hack the server. Which of course is against the EULA. I'm sure he didn't just visit every system in the game and write down who he saw... eve-who.com for starters, various killboard's for another, your client has to gather char id's for the char pictures in your local chat/people and places search/various other ingame fucntions so maybe he figured out cache that info. There are tons of ways of finding people's names without doing an api scrape or hacking the server. Start using the brain God gave you and you could have guessed the 3 examples above on your own. I actually don't think he used eve-who actually cause I have char's on it that didn't get a mail from him. |
Omega Flames
Ardent Spirits Initiative Mercenaries
21
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Posted - 2012.03.14 06:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
[quote=Macon Chalaise]More than a few game companies, including Blizzard and Bioware, censor and control what players say in chat, put in their forum posts and their character information such as bios and names. MMOs are not havens for free speech any more than movie theaters are
I am not a lawyer so I am wondering: What are the areas in which this lawyer practices and what did they tell you was the basis for pursuing your suit
P.S. A quote of what words they wanted you to remove should be perfectly permissible as long as you say no more than "this is the text in question: [INSERT TEXT HERE]." If you will post that, we can get a better idea of how really egregious was CCPs EULA violation
P.P.S. Threatening with lawyers is not something to be done lightly. The policy at every company I ever worked for was that if a client EVER used the "lawyer" word in a threatening manner, all further discussion with that client was to be handled by the legal department. That weeds out the posers extremely quickly.[/quote I can write up a EULA that says you aren't allowed to blink on sundays and no ice cream between the hours of 2pm and 3pm..how many people do you think are going to even read the EULA to know I put those 2 rules in it much less sue me over it? That's a bit extreme of an example but It's sorta the same with censoring certain words just because it's in a EULA doesn't mean it will hold up in court even if I agreed to the EULA. There is alot of leeway given to companies because they own the hardware/software and should get some right as to what gets communicated on it but at the same time I pay x dollars/ x timeframe (or rather the person I bought a plex from does in my case :P ) for access to that hardware/software. I can make an arguement that
1. freedom of speech still applies in a virtual world WHEN that virtual world is ran by a company located in a country that has freedom of speech. CCP owns an office in Atlanta, Ga so may easily be bound by USA laws too not just Icelandic ones. There are plenty of laws/bench rulings that would allow them to censor me if I was trying to be racist 2. If the words I'm using are not being used to degrade someone then they fall outside the realm of rule 2 in the TO
I may win, i may not, but considering the case would realistically go all the way to the supreme court before being done with and I'm sure CCP will pay the money to go that far I would have to be willing to do the same. Obviously i contacted a lawyer that is more familiar with my kind of case and not something like tax laws
On the subject of what trebor did I failed at finding any actual rule that says he isn't allowed to spam so i will have to ask CCP where that rule is located at. |
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
58
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Posted - 2012.03.14 08:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
well done forum warriors this is where the real battles are fought, and everyone knows it
hail the victorious dead. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
72
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Posted - 2012.03.14 11:48:00 -
[38] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:On the subject of what trebor did I only found the rule 1 in the TOS that talks about spamming and no mention anywhere in the TOS/EULA that allows exceptions for CSM candidates so unless I missed something the GM's gave a go ahead to a spamming that was previously (and currently actually) against the TOS. That is in effect CCP violating their own agreement with me.
You could have read:
6: You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in the EVE Online game world or using the EVE Online web site.
Scroll back and see how a CCP authorized person tells you what the rules are in this case.
If you persist on using rules be so kind as to use all of them and not only the convenient ones.
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Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
443
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Posted - 2012.03.14 12:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
Why is it that everyone in this game is either a CEO or a software expert in something.
no one is a lonely neckbeard pretending to be what they are not
my thoughts and **** you OP never drop character
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Omega Flames
Ardent Spirits Initiative Mercenaries
21
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Posted - 2012.03.14 18:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Omega Flames wrote:On the subject of what trebor did I only found the rule 1 in the TOS that talks about spamming and no mention anywhere in the TOS/EULA that allows exceptions for CSM candidates so unless I missed something the GM's gave a go ahead to a spamming that was previously (and currently actually) against the TOS. That is in effect CCP violating their own agreement with me. You could have read: 6: You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in the EVE Online game world or using the EVE Online web site. Scroll back and see how a CCP authorized person tells you what the rules are in this case. If you persist on using rules be so kind as to use all of them and not only the convenient ones. 1. said policy has already been addressed in the TOS so an agreement has already been reached in the legally binding document, doesn't matter what the "authorized personnel" say it is still a breach of the previous agreement. 2. put those instructions in a clearly defined area/reference and you might stand a chance of being able to hold that arguement up in court because no judge/jury is going to hold me bound to a random forum post made x years ago by a GM when that forum post isn't made easily accessible for me when I'm signing a legal document. No sane person is ever going to expect me to dig through millions (10's of millions? 100's of millions? does even CCP know how many forum posts there have been over the years?) of forum posts (99.999% of which have no bearing on whether I should agree to the legal document) to find all the "instructions of authorized personnel" |
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Omega Flames
Ardent Spirits Initiative Mercenaries
21
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Posted - 2012.03.14 18:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:Why is it that everyone in this game is either a CEO or a software expert in something.
no one is a lonely neckbeard pretending to be what they are not
my thoughts and **** you OP never drop character
If you are talking to me then I would like to point out that I NEVER said I was a lawyer and it fact said that I consulted a lawyer to find out the points I gave. You are welcome to consult your own lawyer if you think I'm pretending something. 100 mil isk says you won't be bothered to do so. |
Macon Chalaise
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.03.14 18:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Karn Dulake wrote:Why is it that everyone in this game is either a CEO or a software expert in something.
no one is a lonely neckbeard pretending to be what they are not
my thoughts and **** you OP never drop character
If you are talking to me then I would like to point out that I NEVER said I was a lawyer and it fact said that I consulted a lawyer to find out the points I gave. You are welcome to consult your own lawyer if you think I'm pretending something. 100 mil isk says you won't be bothered to do so.
I think you need a new lawyer. MMOs often feel like clearing houses for persons not only vigilant for offense but ready to embrace said offense with the greatest enthusiasm as a crack addict embraces the rock. -áThese persons seek not for resolution of the issues for which they express concern as much as for the feeling of the emotions themselves, emotions they are usually loath to relinquish. |
Macon Chalaise
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.03.14 19:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
This,
Omega Flames wrote:1. freedom of speech still applies in a virtual world WHEN that virtual world is ran by a company located in a country that has freedom of speech. CCP owns an office in Atlanta, Ga so may easily be bound by USA laws too not just Icelandic ones.
Seems to indicate that you do NOT know if you have a viable case in the first place making this,
Omega Flames wrote:I may win, i may not, but considering the case would realistically go all the way to the supreme court before being done with and I'm sure CCP will pay the money to go that far I would have to be willing to do the same.
wishful thinking at best...
If a lawyer thought this was a chance at a landmark "Free Speech" case I am sure there would be one interested in picking it up pro bono just to get it on their resume, especially if a follow up civil court payout could be arranged. It would seem they do not feel nearly as strongly as you do that your rights have been violated or at least not that it can be proven. The word "may" certainly indicates this if that was what the lawyer said.
Again, MMOs are NOT havens for free speech. Companies like Blizzard and Bioware, both of whom are based in the US, do indeed censor their forums in a manner consonant with stifling free speech.
Bear in mind too that the forefathers of this nation did NOT have free speech for everyone in mind when they formed their ideas, in fact they mostly just wanted to make sure people could publicly debate but they wrote it how they wrote it and so we have the additional freedoms and burdens that "free speech" entails. "Free Speech" is not so free in this country but look at how the freedoms we enjoy are mocked and abused by trolls who shout "god hates fags" at military funerals?
As a citizen and a veteran I DO support their right to express their opinion, but I do NOT support their right to inflict it on other people.
Sorry, no haven of free speech to be found here.
Since you brought these up I will ask you again because I am interested,
1.) What did the lawyer tell you was the specific legal basis for your suit, (so far "may" makes it sound like there is not much of one)
and,
2.) What were the words the GM wanted you to take down?
This IS in the interests of free speech which is clearly important to you because you feel your rights were violated, yes?
Give us specifics because at this moment your position seems to have little or no weight. MMOs often feel like clearing houses for persons not only vigilant for offense but ready to embrace said offense with the greatest enthusiasm as a crack addict embraces the rock. -áThese persons seek not for resolution of the issues for which they express concern as much as for the feeling of the emotions themselves, emotions they are usually loath to relinquish. |
Omega Flames
Ardent Spirits Initiative Mercenaries
21
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Posted - 2012.03.14 19:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
Macon Chalaise wrote: 1.) What did the lawyer tell you was the specific legal basis for your suit, (so far "may" makes it sound like there is not much of one)
It's a consult no lawyer (who cares about his reputation) is going to assure me, you, or anyone else anything without putting effort (which costs money) into the case. It's a may because without researching if they are even incorporated in the USA he doesn't know how much liabilty they would have and he isnt going to research anything without moneyQuote: 2.) What were the words the GM wanted you to take down?
This IS in the interests of free speech which is clearly important to you because you feel your rights were violated, yes?
Repeating the words here would only lead to someone petitioning and a GM intervening...duh? |
Omega Flames
Ardent Spirits Initiative Mercenaries
21
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Posted - 2012.03.14 19:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Macon Chalaise wrote:Omega Flames wrote:Karn Dulake wrote:Why is it that everyone in this game is either a CEO or a software expert in something.
no one is a lonely neckbeard pretending to be what they are not
my thoughts and **** you OP never drop character
If you are talking to me then I would like to point out that I NEVER said I was a lawyer and it fact said that I consulted a lawyer to find out the points I gave. You are welcome to consult your own lawyer if you think I'm pretending something. 100 mil isk says you won't be bothered to do so. I think you need a new lawyer. And I think I'm going to trust the opinion of the guy who makes a living doing law and not the random person on a forum. |
Macon Chalaise
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2012.03.16 18:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Macon Chalaise wrote: 1.) What did the lawyer tell you was the specific legal basis for your suit, (so far "may" makes it sound like there is not much of one)
It's a consult no lawyer (who cares about his reputation) is going to assure me, you, or anyone else anything without putting effort (which costs money) into the case. It's a may because without researching if they are even incorporated in the USA he doesn't know how much liabilty they would have and he isnt going to research anything without money Quote: 2.) What were the words the GM wanted you to take down?
This IS in the interests of free speech which is clearly important to you because you feel your rights were violated, yes?
Repeating the words here would only lead to someone petitioning and a GM intervening...duh?
Surely a mere snippet of what you said could help us understand how your rights were violated so egregiously without getting you in serious trouble since you would be quoting yourself and not actually saying whatever it was you said. You could even paraphrase to reduce the impact and say "it went sort of like this." Since YOU brought it up, I was genuinely interested in what you said and CCP did to get you the legal slam dunk you mention here:
Omega FlamesA GM once forced me to edit certain words out of my bio. I contacted a lawyer in the USA and even thou I live extremely close to their Atlanta office it would still cost me a few hundred dollars to sue them for violating my freedom of speech rights. I might get that money back [b wrote:when[/b] I win the case but I simply don't have the cash to take that risk. The law is on my side but at the end of the day money talks more than civil law does.
For your consideration, you remark on "when I win the case" and you furthermore assert that "the law is on my side."
These both appear to be expert legal opinions so I was simply wondering at how you came to these conclusions.
Furthermore, a few hundred dollars against your free speech rights? That's one of the most important things you could possibly spend a few hundred dollars on besides food. You said you might get it back when you win your case, because the law is on your side. I should hope that at the conclusion of a successful free speech suit, a jury would pass on your court costs to the defendant.
Even if you somehow didn't recover your costs, what is a few hundred dollars against your right to free speech?
Omega Flames wrote:I may win, i may not, but considering the case would realistically go all the way to the supreme court before being done with and I'm sure CCP will pay the money to go that far I would have to be willing to do the same.
"I may win, I may not" is certainly somewhat accurate and you also acknowledge your costs would continue to mount.
"Would realistically go all the way to the supreme court" seems to follow in the same wishful vein of "when" you win and "the law is on your side", however.
It seems far more likely that what really happened is that you consulted a lawyer who, instead of telling you anything remotely resembling the above sentence, told you they didn't think you had a case but if you wanted to pay them a few hundred dollars, they would look into it for you and you declined to pay.
I really was interested in what happened and what they told you, but it appears you probably didn't and don't have a case.
Next time don't bring it up if you aren't willing to discuss it in a more realistic and detailed fashion. MMOs often feel like clearing houses for persons not only vigilant for offense but ready to embrace said offense with the greatest enthusiasm as a crack addict embraces the rock. -áThese persons seek not for resolution of the issues for which they express concern as much as for the feeling of the emotions themselves, emotions they are usually loath to relinquish. |
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