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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:17:00 -
[1]
I think certain people are expecting a little too much from a recon ship. The only ones that can defend themselves against multiple targets efffectively are the Falcon/Rook and they can do little else (no tackle, tank, speed or dps).
As you are all well aware, damps are not chance based and so the ability to completely disable almost any ships offence indefinately whilst tackling from outside their lock range is pretty powerful.
The criticism that you need a gang to be effective is simply laughable as it applies to so many ships.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.05 15:23:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
Here is another example of clueless theorist. Have you ever flown Arazu? Do you have any experience with it after nerf? Your arguments based on what? Righ click - show ship property - alt+tab - click post button?
May we ask to stay theorists and people who like to argue simply for the sake of it to stay out of the discussion?
Its quite simple, damps are supposed to be different to ECM and in my opinion they are supposed to be slightly less powerful than ECM since the ship that fits them is more powerful in a combat role.
My views are based on the fact that ECM was nerfed first by making it chance base and having to fit signal distortion amps in the lows (something you dont need to do with damps).
This resulted in everyone in every ship fitting damps and no one using ECM since 3 x Damps = perma jam to anything.
Damps were then deliberately nerfed to bring them into line with ECM i.e slightly less powerful but still highly effective on a dedicated ship.
CCP also stated that they dont like solo ships and the Gallente recons at the time were solopwnmobiles at the time.
This has been a sequence of events that has in my opinion made the game more interesting and varied.
What is it your views are based on?
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 12:37:00 -
[3]
Kirja, like most of the negative posts I see on these forums you are falling into the trap of taking 1 situation in eve (fleet battles at range) and assuming that that is the only area that needs to be balanced.
The Falcon/Rook are better than the Gallente recons in fleet and noone is arguing with that. If you want to jam multiple ships in a fleet like this you need to use a Falcon/Rook. The Arazu is still usable, however, and probably the second best in this role.
If you want to tackle and damp something then you have to use a Gallente recon. If you want to catch nanos you need minnie recons and if you want to suck cap and disrupt turrets then you need an amarr one.
The argument that you are using is the same as saying that a Thorax is useless because it cannot snipe like a Moa in fleets - you are simple using the wrong tool for the job.
If the Arazu gets changed as you would like then it would be a ship with good combat abilities, extra long tackling, the most powerful ewar that can fly fast and warp when cloaked. Do I need to say more? Its not sounding useless to me.
Your argument that only people that have flown 100 hours + in an Arazu can post is absurd. It would hardly make for a balanced discussion to have only Arazu fanboys posting.
Your posts about killboards are simply bizarre.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:18:00 -
[4]
I suggest you go back to those killboards that you are so fond of where I am sure you will be able to reports that noone ever kills anything in an Arazu.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:31:00 -
[5]
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Can you describe a typical situation for it? Problem is that both roles for arazu (disabling target and long range tackling) can be handled MUCH better by another ships (falcon and hics). The only thing that I can imaging it is trying to solo some stupid hunter in belts or relativly cheap cover cynoship with some armor.
The point is that you need a Falcon and a HIC to to do it better and an Arazu can do both things at once. It is a recurring theme that Gallente ships do well solo and this also fits in with the gallente being individualists whilst caldari are more gang orientated.
The obvious flipside is that a Falcon/Rook cannot tackle or tank and have no drones or DPS as I have said several times. If you want the Arazu to damp as well as a Falcon jams then that is fine but it would have to be balanced by losing its drones, its low slots and some of its guns.
This would be a step backwards in my opinion as it would mean two falcons with different skins instead of two ships with completely different flavours.
These arguments can be used on anything. Yes interceptors can tackle at range and speed tank, but they cant cloak and DPS. Yes HICs can tackle and tank but they too cannot cloak.
The Arazu can be used with a Black ops unlike the others mentioned. Ultimately, although these ships have superficial similarities they also have major differences and that is the beauty of EVE.
Lots of ships with lots of possible fittings that intelligent players can use as they see fit. The certainly shouldn't all do the same thing.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:35:00 -
[6]
Why dont you just fly a Falcon?
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:25:00 -
[7]
Quote:
yea I can agree with it - the problem as I see it an Arazu have an extremly narrow spot of usage, and even then it don't excel at role. Lachetis is in even worse condition.
Your post was very balanced. In reference to the above quote, I think they can be used in combination with other ships extemely well.
The obvious one would be to pair one with a falcon using lock time scripts. Others could be using them in cloaking gangs with rapiers to tackle and web unexpectedly from long range.
I think an arazu using lock time scripts and ecm drones (either their own or other peoples) would also be useful.
These are just a few examples of when I have wanted an Arazu in my gang, I am sure there are lots more.
The specific grievence here is about Fleet battles and my view is that the Arazu should not be as good as the Falcon in this situation.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:22:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Birkinz on 06/06/2008 15:26:29
Quote:
I have to agree with Liang. Most of the time a Gallente recon is not going to be able to get close enough to the falcon the damp it. Inability to engage at a Falcon's native range means that the Gallente ship is always having to struggle uphill to get close.
Would it be possible for an Arazu to move into range cloaked and then target all the Falcons and damp them?
Quote:
The biggest difference between Dampners and ECM is the range - falcons and other ECM ships will almost always operate at ranges well over 120km - Damp ships must stay far closer. So one boost is to change the ship bonuses and module to allow a similar (160 km or so) maximum damp range. But since ECM is change based and Damps are not, to allow for a balance something needs to go on the damps. The easiest solution is to ensure that at the ranges an ECM ship of a certain class operates at (EAF, cruiser, Recon and Black Ops (If the gallente Black ops even gets a bonus - I assume it does but I've never looked)) a Damp ship can also operate at in falloff.
I think this is essentially right. If there isn't a chance based element and they have the same range then damps would be too powerfull. Especially given the fact that the Arazu is more powerful then a Falcon up close. You would simply revers the current situation and the Falcon would be obsolete again.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:08:00 -
[9]
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Here. This one explains your "Gallente Recons" are fine.
Not really, and that is a pretty worthless reply. What is shows is that I do fly some of the ships that we are talking about here and I understand the problems of flying the ECM boats that have been played down in this thread.
Again and for the last time, the Falcon is better than the Arazu in ranged fleet fights and this is correct. If you wish to have more powerful damps on the Arazu then that is fine but the only way I can see to balance then would be to completely nerf every other aspect of the ship just like the falcon.
Another possible balance would be to remove all ECM mods from the game, make a sngle multispec with similar range to damps that goes in a low slot. Give the blackbird, rook and falcon big dronebays, more launchers and anothe bonus to something like scrambling or neuting.
But again this would be a step back in terms of variety.
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