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Hexxx
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Posted - 2008.06.15 01:03:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Starlight Horizons
I am a huge supporter of EBANK but I agree in part that this matter could prove poisonous if not handled correctly. In my talks with Ricdic and Hexxx prior to my launching of my IPO they stressed about their goals of improving the secondary market, which I feel they truly believe in. The problem is, appearance wise EBANK is actually taking over the entire secondary market. With each closing of the old IPO's, Fury, FIN, etc it's like watching the decline of the US financial and housing markets. If EBANK buys out DS for 75B and its worth 95B then Ricdic is a genius and while EBANK grows stronger the market actually weakens.
I use EBANK's services, I am chugging along with my IPO and could not make a move on DS's assets or market share even if I wanted, but I would hate to see bad press and a weaker market result from this closure.
Part of the reason for this perception is that EBANK's business model and it's operations, it's leadership....all of it is incredibly strong. So strong in fact, that it continues to grow even while the secondary market languishes. This is a correlation, but EBANK is not the causation for this.
In other words, the secondary market weakening is a seperate issue unto itself, not related to EBANK's rise. I say this because our loans are almost exclusively with people who were not and probably never will consider launching an IPO.
So that the "good" news. What's the "bad" news?
EBANK is almost too strong. It's funny to say, but EBANK liquidity is very very very deep (20% of 600 billion, which is a rough reserve level we've quoted before, comes out to 120 billion in cash.) The fact of the matter is, we have the ability now to act on nearly any conceivable business opportunity. Even if we don't have the funds, we can raise them quickly with a Bond or two.
I never really imagined that EBANK would be this successful, and while many of the original designs are working just great (not competing with Bonds and IPO's on rates to avoid hurting the secondary market) this is just one other thing that we never thought of. The "problem" isn't going away either as EBANK builds a foundation for 1 trillion and beyond.
Now, all that said, we are still trying to find ways to help the community. I hope in the next month or two I'll be able to say more about some of the specific things we have in the pipeline.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.06.15 04:37:00 -
[32]
Once the board have had time to determine what we want to do we will put an official buyout bid on AATP. Dark Shikari doesn't want to run it any more, that much is obvious. Therefore if no-one else steps up to either counter the bid or take over the public running of AATP then DS won't have much option but to accept the offer we provide.
So the idea will be for people to see what we are offering for AATP and choose themselves if they want a part of this. Interesting to note that Ray is now interested now that he has seen EBANK's interest in the venture 
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Dark Shikari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.15 05:27:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Ray McCormack
DS, let's talk. I think we can come to a conclusion that sees this stay in the public domain.
If you want to make a counter-offer or proposal, call me up on IM 
I don't have AIM or MSN. IRC?
You'll find me as "Dark_Shikari" on Freenode.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.06.15 07:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Interesting to note that Ray is now interested now that he has seen EBANK's interest in the venture
Don't flatter yourself. I was interested in this from my first post, as can be seen from the questions.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.06.15 07:07:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Hexxx
So strong in fact, that it continues to grow even while the secondary market languishes.
Hexxx, I think you're more intelligent than that. Replace "even while" with "because" and you'll be on the money. Don't you find it interesting that each time there is a decent, large public offering EBank sees a splurge of withdrawals? From my perspective, it's not that you're doing anything right, it's just that you're the only ones doing anything.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.15 09:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
it's just that you're the only ones doing anything.
I'm not going to get into this bicker warfare that is going on (And I'd suggest Ric just stop myself) but I will agree that there is something to this statement here. Like we keep saying, eBank's rates are designed to be unattractive compared to, what we thought, pretty standard returns from IPO's and Bonds. The fact that we are doing so well, SO WELL, is part too much isk in the system and a lack of activity in this particular market segment. However, do not fool yourself either Ray. We are doing something right. We are doing a lot of what you did to turn BMBE around. That being forthright, as transparent as is responsible, and making good choices. We fully expected to reach certain milestones, as far as overall deposits are concerned as well as the activities to support those. We have achieved those milestones much earlier than we expected and part of that is the slow down in the secondary market. We are not going to be ashamed that our trust quotient is so high that when the market stinks, to the eyes of the investor, we are the place to turn.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
SonOfAGhost
Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.06.15 09:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Current assets:
1. Taranis BPO + 100 Taranises and a few components.
2. 9k H-TI shares which pay 3b total payout per month.
3. 15.5b in assets.
4. One highly trained R&D character with a huge number of RPs.
Post-IPO shares seem to end up stabilizing in the neighbourhood of a 2% return. The H-TI shares by themselves then (if listed) would trade for about double EBank's proposed offer. Excuse me if I don't do cartwheels over their offer. Quite frankly though, even if the offer was 10x I'd still rather not see yet another public corp fold.
I've already taken over operations of one and considered doing the same for TCCS but it was too soon after taking the reigns of C-R-A. Those two though were businesses I was already in however, T2 production/blueprints are not something I've even dabbled in, and quite frankly don't have the time. All I could offer to do here would be put an alt in as caretaker to flow-through H-TI dividends until someone more familiar with this side of things came forward.
Which leads to Ray's offer. He is someone I'll never trust until he reveals the 30-bil thief's identity. However most other folks around here don't seem to have a problem with his loose morals and distorted ethics. I'm but one shareholder and a smallish one at that given how much smaller my operations were when AATP launched. I'd rather see him keep it running as a public entity and sell my shares to someone that does trust him than see it closed and the pieces sold off.
-----
Originally by: kedoremos
EVE's economy is **** for CPAs, Annuities, and Stock Brokers.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.06.15 10:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
However most other folks around here don't seem to have a problem with his loose morals and distorted ethics.
Could you clarify those? Is it just that I won't name the 30b ISK defaulter, or is it something more? Because I swear to god she said she was 18.
Regardless, the BMBE default is no longer mine to disclose. I was not in an authoritative position in the BMBE at the time of the default, I merely inherited the problem and had to follow suit with what had been decided. Ultimately TornSoul is weighed down by the foul stench of the long-dead buck I passed on to him.
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Mr Horizontal
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.15 12:13:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Hexxx
So strong in fact, that it continues to grow even while the secondary market languishes.
Hexxx, I think you're more intelligent than that. Replace "even while" with "because" and you'll be on the money. Don't you find it interesting that each time there is a decent, large public offering EBank sees a splurge of withdrawals? From my perspective, it's not that you're doing anything right, it's just that you're the only ones doing anything.
You're both right but not entirely on the mark. Yes there are extra withdrawals to cover the buying of other investments, as evidenced by your bond most recently, Ray! However, EBANK makes money because it is the defacto place to put all extra non working capital. And while this may be everyone's collective 'spare change', in fact, the throughput of money into, within and out of the bank is how EBANK makes money. The more money that goes through it's system, the better health the bank is in.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Ghost Emperor
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.15 12:26:00 -
[40]
Thanks for the update DS and GL with RL, I know how busy it seems atm.
Question: Will there be a dividend this month before control changes hands? EMFI is hurting as a result of our two largest investments not paying dividends (AATP and BMBE).
Some ideas on AATP to share with you.
As mentioned before, I would like to suggest the idea that H-TI and EMFI to do a joint buyout/buyback of AATP. As EMFI is largest shareholder with approx 2million shares we have a vested interest in keeping it profitable. I would consider offering buyback on shares if a character is placed within the corp/acts as CEO. And an Ebank character or two could become trustees of EMFI?
H-TI could buy the Taranis BPO, and would buyback shares for resale to corp members and general public, they could buy some 30bn immediately and the rest over the next month or two. EMFI would want to hold onto H-TI shares as well and may consider an extra release of shares to purchase the outstanding AATP stock, or pay final dividend. In the mean time dividend payment would continue.
It would be good to discuss other ideas with people that have put them forward. As I have two characters in H-TI it would give people an idea of NAV value of the shares. Which every way it is viewed it is unlikely that AATP is worth its IPO value.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Edited by: Ray McCormack on 08/06/2008 17:34:48
And have H-TI sorted out their CEO problems, is it paying dividends now?
H-TI has new CEO a couple of months ago, the old one was Naph who has vanished...H-TI shares have lost some value and value is some less based on turnover, but corp and corp members would do a management buyout.
Give me a eve mail/convo if any of this makes sense ;)
EvE Galactic Stock Exchange and Real-time Eve Stock Exchange EMFI blog at: http://emfi.blogspot.com/ |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.15 13:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ghost Emperor
It would be good to discuss other ideas with people that have put them forward. As I have two characters in H-TI it would give people an idea of NAV value of the shares. Which every way it is viewed it is unlikely that AATP is worth its IPO value.
I think it is this here that causes me the most trouble. This and the fact of the round robin nav dependencies between the members of this circle jerk, so to speak. Long ago I expressed worries about these kinds of incestuous relationships. Having NAV be totally subjective and dependent on other organizations, who may or may not follow any kind of reporting standards, is (blunt as always) dumb. Subsequently we now have investors who are clueless, quite, but yet they seem to operate under the assumption they really know what is going on though they've not seen one (1) shred of data to substantiate their overblown mis-perceptions. (Yeah, harsh but a common happenstance. My suggestion, read it again and see if it applies to YOU. If it does, I'd be more worried than offended if I were you.) This is not to say that matters have been mismanaged. It is just, imnsho, many of these "older" institutions have a variety of flaws that would be unacceptable by today's standards. This whole "let's save AATP" or "let's keep it public" comes off to me more as "Damn, I need more time to offload my portion before the truth comes out." Disclosure and transparency. These two things need to be brought to the table so that the investors, past and future, can have an honest idea of what is going on instead of the information black holes that have become the standard for the matured institutions.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Dark Shikari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.15 15:17:00 -
[42]
It appears there's already bickering over this  .
Oh, and yes, I will release a 3b ISK dividend soon enough.
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Ava Santiago
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Posted - 2008.06.15 15:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ghost Emperor
It would be good to discuss other ideas with people that have put them forward. As I have two characters in H-TI it would give people an idea of NAV value of the shares. Which every way it is viewed it is unlikely that AATP is worth its IPO value.
I think it is this here that causes me the most trouble. This and the fact of the round robin nav dependencies between the members of this circle jerk, so to speak. Long ago I expressed worries about these kinds of incestuous relationships. Having NAV be totally subjective and dependent on other organizations, who may or may not follow any kind of reporting standards, is (blunt as always) dumb. Subsequently we now have investors who are clueless, quite, but yet they seem to operate under the assumption they really know what is going on though they've not seen one (1) shred of data to substantiate their overblown mis-perceptions. (Yeah, harsh but a common happenstance. My suggestion, read it again and see if it applies to YOU. If it does, I'd be more worried than offended if I were you.) This is not to say that matters have been mismanaged. It is just, imnsho, many of these "older" institutions have a variety of flaws that would be unacceptable by today's standards. This whole "let's save AATP" or "let's keep it public" comes off to me more as "Damn, I need more time to offload my portion before the truth comes out." Disclosure and transparency. These two things need to be brought to the table so that the investors, past and future, can have an honest idea of what is going on instead of the information black holes that have become the standard for the matured institutions.
*Cough* Unfortunately, this applies to the real world... I mean, compare these thoughts with most of the current big financial institutions statements. Most firms managed over the long term eventually are managed for management. That's not necessarily bad, but since management doesn't like telling shareholders that the vast majority of decisions are not made with their best interests in mind, disclosure statements become vague.
From the perspective of making the secondary market more robust, it appears that it may be possible for the shareholders in this firm's case to get a couple of proposals together and then have a shareholder vote. It would need to be done quickly, but it appears that EBANK has made a reasonable liquidation offer, and a counteroffer for continued operations is being worked on. Getting both of those offers finalized and putting together a shareholder vote would be good for the secondary market.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.06.15 16:00:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
It appears there's already bickering over this .
Did you expect any less from MD?
I can't logon to FreeNode for some reason, so herewith my proposal.
* Maintain the 75b investment in H-TI.
- It seems returns are 4% a month, and if that is after capital retention then even better.
* Sell the character.
- How many SP does it have. Is it mainly Industrial spec'd?
* Sell DS's 10b in shares.
* Utilise the additional 15b + 10b + the revenue from the character sale for medium-term, idle investments. Such as minerals, moon and advanced materials, etc.
- The Asset's API will be utilised, and Jita Buy prices used to calculate NAV.
- Once a final handover NAV is decided on, this will be used as the base, and any additional ISK over this will be dividended out.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.15 16:02:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ava Santiago
*Cough* Unfortunately, this applies to the real world... I mean, compare these thoughts with most of the current big financial institutions statements.
You are indeed correct, this kind of thing happens in the real world. However, in eve, there is no redress. And there should be no golden parachutes either though it is impossible to hold everyone as accountable as they should be. That being said, to defeat anyone else's though of pointing this out, I myself was at the head of a failed venture twice. Failed of course being subjective. The first one was a bond that delivered exactly as promised to the investors though I took a loss. The second one was an ipo that failed to deliver the expected profits. Profit it did but far below reasonable expectations. And in both cases I refused from treating my own situations as if I was in the real world and that the law could come to my door and compel me to fair behavior. In Eve I think one should always own up.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Ghost Emperor
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.15 18:45:00 -
[46]
Hi Shar, you managed to fit a lot into one post ;)
Originally by: Shar Tegral
...circle jerkà
IÆm not sure I like the implication that the very few people left trying inject any life into the eve stock are jerking offàas EMFI has 13bn exposure to AATP I consider we have a right to be interested in itÆs survival/ expert closure. I do not consider this to be jerking, rather trying to maintain some form of value for our investors
Originally by: Shar Tegral
...many of these "older" institutions have a variety of flaws that would be unacceptable by today's standardsà
I'm not sure what your implying, but how I view it is that the few "oldest" corps left: BMBE, AATP, EMFI and H-TI are about the only corps still in existence. IÆm also not sure what todayÆs standard is other than people just closing things down, or vanishingà
Originally by: Shar Tegral
àThis whole "let's save AATP" or "let's keep it public"à
I didnÆt specifically say save AATP, I placed some ideas into a forum post, including merger, buyout, closureàwithout DS, or an EMFI alt in their I couldnÆt see how it could continue tbh, but RayÆs offer seems to be an interesting option.
On transparency
Originally by: Shar Tegral
àinformation black holes that have become the standard for the matured institutions.
I would be interest in who you think is not disclosing information, disclosure could be improved for sure, but I see lots of disclosure that is honest and to the point, and hurts investor sentiment, no one is trying to delude anyone about how dire the scene is:
òAATP under DS have consistently listed their assets AATP assets and what he is doing;
òEMFI, post our portfolio publicly monthly (http://emfi.blogspot.com/ ) and make clear statements on what info we have gathered on investments NAVs like: ôLARGE WRITE OFFS are expected in the futureö. The next portfolio due out later today shows a fund loss and a value for AATP of 8k a share, based upon market value over the last few weeks rather than a NAV statement. We also answer all questions asked by investors and have stated clearly how close to death the EVE stock market is in our view;
òH-TI has never been publicly traded/listed, as it is owned by current and past corp members and reporting is done internally;
òEGSE figures clearly show a fall in the index from 105 to 81 over the last 120 daysàwe all know how dire the situation isà
òFIN, FIN-U, LVM and others clearly stating how difficult the market has become and placing of options in the public domain; and
òRESX has stated how low trade volumes have become and how the number of stocks has been dwindling.
I hope this counts as good natured ôdisclosureö and adds to the flavour of the market discussion
EvE Galactic Stock Exchange and Real-time Eve Stock Exchange EMFI blog at: http://emfi.blogspot.com/ |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.15 19:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ghost Emperor
I hope this counts as good natured ôdisclosureö and adds to the flavour of the market discussion
I view no hostility myself. Please don't let some of my colloquialisms throw you off.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Ghost Emperor
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.15 20:34:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ghost Emperor
I hope this counts as good natured ôdisclosureö and adds to the flavour of the market discussion
I view no hostility myself. Please don't let some of my colloquialisms throw you off.
No problems :) comments are good for the market is good for it
...indeed thinking of comments posted here it still surprises me how few corps have proper (read funded) buyback offers in place (even though promised by corps)...The ability for investors to cash out and corps to raise their NAVs should be a win win
EvE Galactic Stock Exchange and Real-time Eve Stock Exchange EMFI blog at: http://emfi.blogspot.com/ |
Selene D'Celeste
The D'Celeste Trading Company
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Posted - 2008.06.15 21:28:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Business Stuff
On a completely unrelated note, you are never around anymore. Too busy whoring on other forums now huh? =P (I was browsing XKCD the other day)
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Marcus Baltar
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Posted - 2008.06.16 14:48:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Deovina
Edited by: Deovina on 14/06/2008 23:17:22
First of all thanks for your effort Dark Shikari. It is appreciated.
Anyway the 33% stake in H-TI of 9000 shares was acquired by the deposit of 4 Ship and 3 Module BPOs (if my memory serves me right). One potential counter offer could be to trade back the shares for the BPOs and liquidate the 5 Ship BPO (4+ Taranis) and the module BPOs.
Just a quick survey of current BPO prices on the Sales forum leads to a low end estimate in the low 70b region and average of above 90. But this is only a pretty uneducated guess from 10 minutes of surfing through some recent auctions. Anyway it is still way more than after the decline in T¦ BPO value following the wake of invention and his higher than the bookvalue of the BPOs.
One further point not mentioned yet is the capital retention by AATP and thus H-TI, mentioned by Nap in an earlier Thread on AATP/H-TI.
This sounds good. Especially if the last issue raised is sorted, and all H-TI dividends due to AATP are up to date.
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
Edited by: SonOfAGhost on 15/06/2008 10:01:42
Post-IPO shares seem to end up stabilizing in the neighbourhood of a 2% return. The H-TI shares by themselves then (if listed) would trade for about double EBank's proposed offer. Excuse me if I don't do cartwheels over their offer. Quite frankly though, even if the offer was 10x I'd still rather not see yet another public corp fold.
The value of the H-TI needs to be sorted first really. See Ghost Emporer's offer below.
Originally by: Ghost Emperor
Thanks for the update DS and GL with RL, I know how busy it seems atm.
Question: Will there be a dividend this month before control changes hands? EMFI is hurting as a result of our two largest investments not paying dividends (AATP and BMBE).
Some ideas on AATP to share with you.
As mentioned before, I would like to suggest the idea that H-TI and EMFI to do a joint buyout/buyback of AATP. As EMFI is largest shareholder with approx 2million shares we have a vested interest in keeping it profitable. I would consider offering buyback on shares if a character is placed within the corp/acts as CEO. And an Ebank character or two could become trustees of EMFI?
H-TI could buy the Taranis BPO, and would buyback shares for resale to corp members and general public, they could buy some 30bn immediately and the rest over the next month or two. EMFI would want to hold onto H-TI shares as well and may consider an extra release of shares to purchase the outstanding AATP stock, or pay final dividend. In the mean time dividend payment would continue.
It would be good to discuss other ideas with people that have put them forward. As I have two characters in H-TI it would give people an idea of NAV value of the shares. Which every way it is viewed it is unlikely that AATP is worth its IPO value.
I do not think this would be a particularly good idea - it will increase confusion about who owns what and NAVs. Also releasing shares to fund this would probably not raise suitable revenue and cause even more problems in the falling market, and issuing new ones will likely be a problem for similar reasons.
Player Stock Exchanges;
Eve Galactic Stock Exchange (EGSE) & Real-time EVE Stock Exchange (RESX) |
Jennine Tyler
NewDawn
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Posted - 2008.06.21 12:07:00 -
[51]
Any Updates on this?
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2008.06.21 20:02:00 -
[52]
I always figured you were faculty there.
Faculty with way too much time on his/her hands... 
have love, willing to
give it industrially .CCPGinger |
Dark Shikari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.22 16:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Dark Shikari
It appears there's already bickering over this .
Did you expect any less from MD?
I can't logon to FreeNode for some reason, so herewith my proposal.
* Maintain the 75b investment in H-TI.
- It seems returns are 4% a month, and if that is after capital retention then even better.
* Sell the character.
- How many SP does it have. Is it mainly Industrial spec'd?
* Sell DS's 10b in shares.
* Utilise the additional 15b + 10b + the revenue from the character sale for medium-term, idle investments. Such as minerals, moon and advanced materials, etc.
- The Asset's API will be utilised, and Jita Buy prices used to calculate NAV.
- Once a final handover NAV is decided on, this will be used as the base, and any additional ISK over this will be dividended out.
Who would be the CEO? By the way, those returns are not after capital retention.
The character has something like ~10m SP and is an absolute maxed RP character with 4 or 5 research agents that have been collecting for at least half a year now.
Originally by: Jennine Tyler
Any Updates on this?
I want my update from Ricdic too.
If people think its time for a vote, say so.
(Seriously, this would all happen much faster if people started using AIM/MSN).
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.06.22 16:15:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Who would be the CEO? By the way, those returns are not after capital retention.
My alt.
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The character has something like ~10m SP and is an absolute maxed RP character with 4 or 5 research agents that have been collecting for at least half a year now.
Cash out the datacores and sell the character. Probably get 2-3b for it.
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CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.07.04 16:49:00 -
[55]
Is there any new information regarding this?
Update on AATP status?
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.07.04 20:16:00 -
[56]
After speaking with DS I am currently attempting to get hold of HTI CEO's to determine what is going on with them etc. AATP comprises almost wholly of HTI shares so it's crucial that full information on HTI is available in order to correctly value the AATP operation.
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Jennine Tyler
NewDawn
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:41:00 -
[57]
Still no progress on this front?
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:56:00 -
[58]
My first request to the HTI CEO was swiftly answered, telling me to feel free to ask any more questions. I then replied with a pile more questions but have since had no reply. This was about 2 weeks ago now.
EBANK haven't sourced approval amongst the board either for or against yet as we were waiting for further information to surface however at this point I would suggest it's highly unlikely we will take over AATP. There are too many blanks, miscommunication and the lack of dividends is obviously of concern.
Not many people actually know much about HTI and it's extremely hard to get into contact with them. Hopefully Ray has more luck if he's still interested.
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Caya
Amarr
Body Count Inc.
The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.08.04 14:31:00 -
[59]
erm... bump? :) |
EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.04 15:03:00 -
[60]
At this point I would say it's not looking too good for AATP. DS has basically quit Eve so last thing he wants to be doing is chasing people up. I can't get in touch with the HTI CEO, HTI being a very large chunk of what AATP is comprised of.
I hope someone comes up with something as I know EMFi had a considerable holding in this operation as well.
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