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Dear CCP, do you EVER plan to do ANYTHING about the prices ?

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Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 03:07:00 - [1] Why is it I never have these problems with the economy? Maybe it is because I just adapt as it goes I don't know. CCP has tweaked the economy very much over the years. T2 monopoly being one broken dropping crazy prices were they belong. However minerals are not worthless take a look at market price for minerals to build a Battlecruiser. I have to say though your post was confusing and what your actual point is must have been missed by me because it never came out of your post.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:12:00 - [2] Why don't the people worried about moon minerals (which mean nothing to most of us) go down and take some moons. Instead of asking for an outside influence to fix what players can fix them selves. The majority of us could careless if you are getting rich or the other guy is getting rich. The market will right its self naturally yet you think you know the answer to fixing it by gimping other players and they pay for your desires. Risk vs reward? Haha well want the risk go kill some mega alliance and take their loots. Because the majority would rather not have small groups of people changing a dynamic economy because they aren't happy and think they know what is best for everyone else. Trit was at an all time low once where people didnÆt even bother to mine it unless they needed it or just had to make some money. Now it is worth something and high sec miners are making some isk who cares? Why should mission runners be hurt for your benefit? How I see it is you have an ulterior motive Akita which you are hiding. You have some vested interest in changing things to suit you not the game. You talk between the lines and are never direct in what you have to say. Most people pick up on that it makes them weary of your motivations.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:22:00 - [3] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Akita T One has to draw the line somewhere. No, one does not. Free markets are self-organizing, that's what's so beautiful about them. For the Nth time : except that in the REAL WORLD free markets, you can eventually design your own alternatives to "problems" of material shortage, by using another (cheaper or more readily available) material instead. In EVE, this is impossible. So, one DOES have to draw the line. Go back to the first few Q&As of the OP : your current "concern" was already addressed (espescially by the second pair). No that is not true. If you are not making money get out of the business of T2 market or charge higher prices for example if people don't pay 250 million for a Cerberus anymore too bad. If you can't compete then that is the nature of this game. Some win some lose, there is no line to be drawn unless it is an absolute monopoly and that isnÆt the case after dismantling the isk machine of T2 items. Perhaps inventors have pushed the price of T2 minerals up because of increase supply of T2 building. Maybe trit went up because of the higher demand for simpler items like shuttles or because macro miners have a harder time flooding the market. The difference between a few hording up the moons and the old T2 isk machines is that moons can be taken. It needs no artificial manipulation like some closed markets. Going after mission runners and other miners is just silly and unfair.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Akita T Oh, I now can see you are positively insane. Paranoia. Look up the definition. Insane? Paranoia? Its a game silly, I don't care if all the moons explode and there is endless carnage for the last T2 items in the game. But your circular logic doesn't work.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Why are high prices a problem? Do you really think everything should be the same price? High prices and low prices make an economy interesting. Leave it alone, and the market will sort itself out. Exactly. If the prices of the T2 minerals get too high then the price of T2 items will slowly rise until people use them less making a reverse impact on moon minerals. It will balance out if not the 60 new systems is going to be lots of more moons and lots of more minerals hitting the market when the enterprising folks go out and do their work. We are still in a state of shock from the last market minipulation.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Akita T This whole section has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the matter at hand. The price of materials does not decide wether invention is profitable or not. OTHER INVENTORS failing to account for material prices and opportunity cost decide wether invention is profitable or not. It has no relevance to you because it doesn't support your baseless claims. No the buyers decide the market, they decide if they will pay the price of any given market. Inventors will sell or they will not if they can't make any money out of it then there will be fewer of them. Everyone and their grandma inventing has pushed prices higher for the materials to invent. ItÆs simple supply and demand, which isn't based simply on the end consumer market but every supply chain in the process of manufacturing. The price of materials ABSOLUTELY decides if any given product is profitable combined with the consumer purchase. sell price - production cost = profit production cost is based almost completely on the price of material to produce and the cost of factory and invention. The cost is past on to the consumer market until it becomes too expensive to be sold. Then there is a reverse in the market forces and prices fall because demand is lowered all the way back to joe blow mining a moon. It is all connected. Quote: Perhaps this is the first sensible things you said so far. Yes, before invention, and at the start of invention, there were still plenty of moon minerals to supply the manufacture lines. But after the introduction of marauders, black ops and jump freighters, the demand has spiked like crazy, exposing the already existing bottlenecks. And no matter what you say, it WON'T get better. Dysprosium will continue rising up, promethium is uncertain, while the rest keep going down, down, further down, until ALMOST THE ENTIRE cost of T2 goods will be composed of the cost of embedded dysprosium. And? That is the nature of the beast. We should see a new supply of moons in the next two days which will give more minerals if you can hold them. But none of this has anything to do with your idea of gimping a large base of the players running missions. Not one thing. Quote: Trit went up because zydrine and megacyte went down. It's one of the most basic concepts in the mineral market. What? Why is that? Because people can build more now perhaps? Quote: Like I said before, it doesn't matter WHO has them, price of dysprosium will keep rising until most, if not all other moon minerals are worth next to nothing, and the only source for them is from people trying to recoup a little bit of the fuel costs needed for sov. ALL moons that don't contain dysprosium (and maybe promethium) will become WORTHLESS. Now, having 1/256 of the moons worth billions monthly, 1/256 worth a bil montly, and the rest of 254/256 LOSING money on fuel... you can't possibly believe that's ok, can you ? Because, rest assured, THAT is where things are headed unless a change is made. The sky is falling? Or should I say the galaxy is falling? I wouldn't mine moons if it wasn't profitable it is really that simple. What I see is huge wars over resources I like that and then we see work for mercenaries and other people who take advantage of such chaos. Hey other people gots to eat to! If the other moons are not profitable then get out of it obviously there is too much supply.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Spineker Exactly. If the prices of the T2 minerals get too high then the price of T2 items will slowly rise until people use them less making a reverse impact on moon minerals. It will balance out if not the 60 new systems is going to be lots of more moons and lots of more minerals hitting the market when the enterprising folks go out and do their work. We are still in a state of shock from the last market minipulation. The final prices of T2 items WILL stabilize like you say. However, 90%+++ of the cost of materials in each and every T2 items will come from the dysprosium. And that's not ok. It's like saying "well, I wouldn't mind if the price of T1 items would be 90% the price of tritanium". On one hand, it's perfectly fine to you for highsec miners to earn the same as lowsec or even 0.0 miners, but at the same time it's also perfectly fine for some moons to be worth insane amounts while most of the rest are worth zilch ? How the hell can you be so blind ? Do you even listen to yourself ? Absolutely I think it is ok for high sec miners to finally make a little bit of the pie. After 5 years of domination by 0.0 and such yeah I think it is a good thing. Sorry Mega industrialist aren't making all the fun in eve at the moment, I will try to squeeze out a tear later. I am not blind or stupid and you need to drop the ad hominem before I hurt your feelings.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:13:00 - [8] Then there will be huge wars for moons now that would make some good drama... I am sorry if I can't find any sympathy for others who have dominated markets. Sort of like sympathy for bill gates because he isn't worth 90 billion anymore.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Haakon Jarl A great OP Akita, well done. Your thought through post is like a breath of fresh air. Still sad to see all the morons reply with the usual kneejerk 'adapt od die' rubbish. Says the moron who can't come up with a better comment other then arsekissing
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:40:00 - [10] The sensationalism is extreme "spiraling out of control" "End of the economy" "Destroying the economy" I think the truth is a little closer to some of the wallets in this thread then it is to any other "sky is falling" issue.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:43:00 - [11] Quote: high-end mineral moons will not, t2 prices will rise over time with the only cap being what we are willing to pay and some of us are far wealthier than others. Umm that is how the economy works instead of putting false constraint on it that will only create other problems. It is sort of like wildlife conservation you have to be very careful what you mess with. It will balance out period. Again one of the knee jerk fixes is in your opinion and AKita's wallet to nerf others for your gain right?
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:42:00 - [12] Edited by: Spineker on 09/06/2008 21:44:16 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf As for your final comment, I get all my ISK through trading via my alt who spends all day sat in Jita. No matter what changes in this game I'll be where the high volume, high margin goods are. Further I'm one of those people who could quite happily continue to use and lose t2 ships and kit even if they returned to or exceeded previous prices. The only people that these changes "nerf" would be those getting far too much ISK strip-mining hi-sec and those garnering approx 6b/month profits from their rare moons. Ahhh an mission runners since they also want to reduce the number of drops to 10 to 15% of what it is now. Why would you nerf high sec miners? They are just taking advantage of the market that others in this thread want to form to their own needs instead of a truly free market system. They want it changed to benefit themselves not the game. Most HACS have dropped 150% in value in the last year or so. They also seem to be stable as a product and other items like T2 lunchers and such are also cheaper. So the market doesn't back up your assumptions. I flew Hacs when they cost 500 million to outfit and get out of the hanger so your point is lost on me. T2 has been a stable market for a long time now game time and it seems the POS owners are just going to have to find a new business.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Spineker I flew Hacs when they cost 500 million to outfit and get out of the hanger so your point is lost on me. T2 has been a stable market for a long time now Let's me put it this way: No let's not put it that way because that is simply the Sky is Falling mentality I am not that scared of the world or pessimistic.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina I never said that they were good or bad at carry out their visions and goals for Eve. They are nonetheless statements of which direction they want to take this game as a whole and the idea introduced in the OP is not in line with that vision. If we were to dismiss the possibility that CCP might like disproportional returns of different regions and resources in 0,0 is this uncertain conclusion of cost/benefit of dysp really reason enough to ask CCP to violate one of their founding rules once more to correct this possibly imaginary problem? And thus effectively weakening the integrity and bearing of that very rule? A rule I take for granted most of us agree with. ItÆs kinda one of the defining rules of Eve imo. Ok, I've tried to be patient, and tried to explain nicely, but this one here does it. Well it is most likely a good thing no one cares. Considering you have been calling people names since you started the thread forgive me if there is no concern.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:16:00 - [15] Edited by: Spineker on 10/06/2008 20:17:04 The problem is many POS owners are not getting super rich and they are whining. There is the same supply as there ever was and now there will be more but some things need to be in short supply.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:19:00 - [16] Edited by: Spineker on 10/06/2008 20:19:03 Originally by: MegaMarkets we need prioces fixed cos of scumbags like america ppl makin food price up. so ppl in ethiopioa is starvin cos of em eatin all the food imo if ccp not fix this prooblem in eve same will happen imo rich ppl get richer and poor peeps starve, ccp act now pls Incredible.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 10/06/2008 20:29:14 Originally by: Spineker Well it is most likely a good thing no one cares. You're definitely not illiterate, since you managed to read some things and write back, and assuming you are able to comprehend the meaning of the words "no one", by simple process of elimination we conclude you're either diagnosed with AD(H)D, schizophrenia, other memory/attention affecting illnesses or plain and simple compulsive lying, since, like this thread so easily indicates, SOME people (as in, more than just one, namely me, and for sure more than "no one") actually DO care. None of the above I really just have a good dose of Idontgivea** about your opinion which is weak and only for your self interest. I find it funny that you hide this poorly behind false concern for the game when in fact you are just greedy and want things changed in your favor. No, know one cares if you get upset. That is all in your head. Quote: I like to mimic the tone of, or just make fun of the person I'm responding to in case he's a little bit too obnoxious. Like you can see right now. Well, how about we turn the tables a bit, with a little "ad hominem" attack on you. I'm not even trying to make it a veiled attack, I'm simply blurting out some facts here. You did that with your first sentence in this thread. This gave you from the start zero credibility and created a bias in your stance. Anyone with a brain knew at that moment you were out for self interest. Hey I have no problem with self interest but let's be honest about it huh? You facts have been based in thin evidence and reinforced with a huge amount of drama and sensationalism to make it sound like the galaxy is going to get sucked down a massive black hole if something isn't changed to your liking, when in fact most of the drama is self induced and created for shock value. Fortunately many of us aren't affected by it. Quote: So, let's put it another way : on this forum, you're a nobody, while, in comparison to you, I'm a demi-god (yes, and quite modest too, I might add, no congratulations necessary). Yes the modesty oozes out of you. I have played this game since beta and never heard of you before or most of the other players for that matter. Regardless your Demi-God status hasn't been able to make you correct in your circular logic and has proven nothing besides the point that when you are questioned about your facts you implode and become defensive and lash out. Sell your POS off or just take it offline Quote: You're a pathetic 200-ish post character, one that changed hands AT LEAST once in his life, if not several times, and at least one of your owners HAS purchased a mining character too recently, so YOU might have a vested interest in this in case that miner is one of the perpetual highsec veld miners. Your wrong about Spine Yes purchased a miner recently and I will train it up some more and resell it to some PVP corp or 0.0 corp who needs a jump miner etc. Will make some isk off of it too, like buying a corporation and selling it off. I don't mine have no desire to. But I have no problem saying I have a miner (more then one) who I will sell in a few months. However you haven't been honest since you started this thread. I have nothing to hide myself. Quote: You're either somebody who just started to post recently (doubt that), or are somebody else's alt. I have many alts your point is? Quote:** In which case, hiding behind this character while acting like a major pain in the posterior is doing no good for your cause. No you are just wrong and your scare tactics were also now when someone tells you that you start to cry and can't understand why everyone is not bowing down to your high intellect and instantly agree with you. Why? Because it is self interest in why you are doing this anyway, admit it you aren't being honest.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Spineker [...]You entire argument so far has amounted to the following statements, nothing more, nothing less: Care to disagree the above are the gist of your statements, and properly describe the ENTIRETY of your statements so far ? You've become boring now. Using my own arguments haha I thought you were a demi-god... at least you adapt to strong opposition even if it is to take on their mannerism. I gave you my reasons more then once I said more then once you have a personal stake in the subject. You just need to stop getting angry and read more.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Nyterra Originally by: Spineker You've become boring now. Using my own arguments haha I thought you were a demi-god... at least you adapt to strong opposition even if it is to take on their mannerism. I gave you my reasons more then once I said more then once you have a personal stake in the subject. You just need to stop getting angry and read more. So, after reading through all this, am I correct in my guess that you, Spineker, have a stake in maintaining the current status quo? Nope the market should be left alone. How many times must I make that statement? There is no stake for me except to argue against strongly controlled markets especially in a game that claims the economy is PVP also. If people aren't getting rich off their POS then they need to get out of the business and the prices will right themselves. When fewer can not compete and they fail with their POS then the prices for the other minerals from moons will go up. There is this idea that this is a simple issue and it isn't and CCP controlled market isn't going to fix it.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:37:00 - [20] I seen a couple of supporters come out for her and far more not considering the numbers reading here. I thin Akita takes this more as a popularity contest then any other meaningful discussion. I have known people who get a high off getting pats on the head on an intraweb forum before. Oh well I guess being a demi-God is hard work. I prefer to just be an ******* myself.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:19:00 - [21] LOL Dude there is no difference when you control either end of the market it is control period. We don't agree at all. That is what you and Akita just don't grasp. We either have a free market or not, its that simple. This is a academic argument anyway because CCP will do what they want when they see it as a problem and they don't right now obviously. None of what these people claiming has happened in over a year. T2 market has done nothing but drop.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.11 06:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Spineker None of what these people claiming has happened in over a year. T2 market has done nothing but drop. My understanding is that the T2 market is dropping because demand is rising, and either is not yet or just starting to saturate the ability to supply that demand. If the amount of those T2 materials (moon ****, as you call it ) stays constant, then prices WILL go up once demand gets high enough. And yes, I understand about substitutes, and agree that it will mitigate some of the price increase as people like me balk at the prices. The T2 market dropped with invention the demand for these elite products rose because the price was more in line with people's pocket books. Invention was a good way to break the t2 monopoly. Hence a rise in price of other materials for building T2 items because there were more builders doing T2. But the demand is high enough to still make a good profit even with the higher cost in material. It's the old saying "a slow dime or a fast nickle" it's a fast nickle market now. If CCP flooded the market with more T2 material that is keeping it stable then the whole market will go crazy. The prices will drop even further until once again it becomes stable again with a new base price for T2 equipment and ships because of competition between builders will drive prices down. Eventually with the raw material rising in price yet again but the end product being cheaper on the market because the market will balance out. Now some might think that is a good thing everyone will be flying Cerberus cruiser and IshtarÆs for 40 million and then you would have to wonder what happens to the T1 market. Oh yeah to hell with them right? As long as the POS owners are still getting their fast dime and making evil like laughs and thanking people like Akita. Consider it like this, you throw a rock in a still pool of water and it will ripple across the pool. You can't continue to play with the supply and ever hope to have a stable market. Akita is wrong and wants to manipulate the natural market forces and it will not be good.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Mankirks Wife Despite her (his?) somewhat abrasive manner, Akita T does know what she (he?) is talking about and it worth listening to. LOL

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