Originally by: lecrotta

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Originally by: Torshin

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the hacking that occurred did not involve CCP nor did it affect ccp. Plenty of people have had their forums hacked from GF to Correli to Bruce. His hacking is not the reason he was banned and it remains to be seen whether it was him or one of his associates who actually hacked the RKK forums

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He or somebody else broke the rules, but he claimed responsibility for it by his posting of the results of the hack therefore he must accept the consequences.

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Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

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If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.

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Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

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I actually find it quite cute that the reason for the council has gone from oversight to what it is today. I've been struggling with a way to get a meeting regarding IA/investigations on the agenda, specifically to learn more about how these things are dealt with, and haven't thought yet of a way to frame it. That is my background so I'd be curious to see how these internal things are handled by them.

I'll try and think of a way to work it in as it's certainly not an item that's been put forth as a game issue, but still a worthwhile pursuit I should think. This can certainly be a part of that discussion if I can make it happen.

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Originally by: Tesseract d'Urberville

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Originally by: Che Biko

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At this time I'd just like to know more about CCP's motivation.

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As would I, but this is something where everyone's hands are tied. No matter how unjust it might or might not have seemed to us in any individual case, CCP has the legitimate authority to ban players. And, they can't comment on how the investigation, or the specifics of what happened, because of issues of privacy and confidentiality. We the rest of the players are not privy to all the facts, and it's not appropriate for us to be.

CSM can certainly ask CCP, more generally, how it conducts investigations and the steps it takes in deciding when to ban a player, but asking CCP to unban a player isn't CSM's job.

Sorry, no support.

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Lord, grant us the senility to forget the people we never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the people we do, and the eyesight to know the difference.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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I'm not going to support the specific case because I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.

I would support a general motion that players should be able to appeal their own bans if new information or new circumstances come to light (or specific penalty time has passed) and Internal Affairs should have a responsibility to ensure those proceedings are fair and unbiased - if neccessary using a panel of arbiters unconnected with the initial banning to re-assess the status of the case.

The principle here is that we are playing a game and yes, sometimes people do bad things and deserve some kind of bans, but this is also a long term hobby and over the course of many years people grow and mature and their life circumstances change and I think its very rare that people fully warrant a permanent banning in actuality. Banning proceedings should give the benefit of doubt where possible, and only in the instance where there is clear and malign intent to harm the game and ruin the gameplay environment for others should a permanent lifetime banning be enforced.

So short version. Yes there should be some kind of appeal process where an independent panel of arbiters look at the case and are obligated to give the applicant a substantive reason why they are still banned (or revisit the judgement). This shouldn't however be public, and it must remain between the player and the independent panel. (And in the case of permanent bans I'd say there should be a minimum cooling off period of 3 months or so before this process should become valid in the first place.)

To the op though, you should be aware that tying a measure like this to a specific banned player is a recipe for the motion to go no-where. You really do need to address general principles rather than those entirely specific to a particular person.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Torshin

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it is quite clear that while yes his OP did seem to read like you posted that that was not his intention and was just a simple typo which when pointed out was quickly corrected. If you could keep your childish flaming and pathetic posts out of my thread that would be great.

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Only after it was edited. When someone makes a mistake which causes someone to ask a question. Usually the person who made the mistake says "sorry, i made a mistake and left out neither, i don't have any information". They do not say "you suck at reading stop trolling!"

The fault lays on the one who made the error, and Narciss made no error in reading what Jade wrote. Its not a big deal so long as the person who made the, what seems to be, completely honest mistake doesn't go ape**** when someone asks a legitimate question regarding what was actually posted.

Some guy in GF found a section on the forums where i typed "president" instead of "precedent". Did i change it to "precedent" and then call him a dirty liar? No, i said "whoops" then fixed my mistake. Then we went on our merry ways. Everyone was happy.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lead GM Grimmi
Greetings,

Lead GM Grimmi here. I have been investigating the bans that were placed on your accounts recently. This is a complicated issue and I sincerely apologize for the delay in getting back to you on all this. Now, the accounts were banned, amongst other things, due to serious concerns regarding the alleged method used to collect the information you have posted on your forums. Hacking is a very serious matter and such issues cannot be taken lightly. However, our investigations have not turned up concrete proof of such criminal behavior and there is no reason for us to take action against you for that. Regarding the other TOS articles cited in the ban mail you got;


16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.

18. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber's personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.


It can be said with some fairness that the posts you made have caused quite the uproar and created an atmosphere that makes all our lives that much more harder. CCP does not condone cheating, for sure, but dealing with matters such as this one is not made any easier with all the ruckus.

Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever.

Concerns about CCP employee misconduct should be sent to us for investigation. We did not receive any mails from you regarding the issues in question here.

In our view, you have clearly violated the above articles and we will therefore not be removing the bans on your accounts. They will remain permanently banned.


Regards,

Lead GM Grimmi
EVE Online Customer Support

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Originally by: Marisal

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Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:16:16
Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:06:28
Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:03:28

Originally by: Torshin

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Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.

Quote:

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GM Correspondence...

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PROVE he is the only one to receive a ban over posting personal info.
If people had really had an issue with how CCP had behaved over this and many other issues they would have voted with their wallets long ago, its not exactly hidden from new players either so that argument that people have invested too much into eve to walk away over such an issue doesn't really hold as the growth of the game wouldn't continue if people really did object strongly.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Torshin

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Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.

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The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.

For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.

Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.

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