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Liselle D'solos
InfoMorph Services Ltd
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 19:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
(The system seems to have lost my original post. If this is a double post, please remove it.)
I've made 45 invention attempts @ 27% chance of success. Out of these, 1 (one) succeeded. Unless my math fails me, the likelihood of only getting one success in 45 tries @ 27% chance, is somewhere in the region of 9.7*10^(-7), or more explicitly, 0.000097%.
Now, CCP tells me this is normal. I say that 0.000097% likelihood is pseudo zero in terms of probability. It is literally 1 in a million. To put it another way: If I did a million batches of 45 attempts each, only roughly one of these batches should result in only one success, assuming 27% chance of success and perfect randomness. Since no RNG is perfectly random, there is going to be bias in the system, but this is just ridiculous.
So, who's right? Is this "normal" or is the system broken?
(The funny thing is, before this swathe of fails, I had a fairly normal distribution of fails and successes.) |

Nykr
5 Inch Incorporated Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
you were just "unlucky" suck it up. |

Liselle D'solos
InfoMorph Services Ltd
0
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nykr wrote:you were just "unlucky" suck it up.
Unlucky is jamming your toe into a sharp piece of furniture. Unlucky is throwing a dart an missing the board all together.
Flip a coin exactly 20 times. Getting the same side 20 times out of 20 flips is in the same ball park of probability as only getting one success in 45 tries @ 27% chance.
Assuming a lifespan of 80 years, it is a hundred (100) times more likely that you will be struck by lightning at least once in your life, than it should be likely to only get one success in 45 attempts at 27% chance.
Mathematically, it is an "unlikely event," in the same way it is "unlikely" that NASA calls me up tomorrow and asks for help designing the next lunar lander.
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Alyssa SaintCroix
Leihkasse Stammheim
22
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Posted - 2012.03.10 20:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Honestly, it happens. It's probably extremely rare, but at 27% per attempt, that's a 73% chance of failure -- not exactly in your favor. I mean, what are you trying to invent? Ships? or do you just have low skills? |

Brock Nelson
416
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Posted - 2012.03.10 20:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Should've brought a lottery ticket instead Signature removed, CCP Phantom |

Liselle D'solos
InfoMorph Services Ltd
0
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Posted - 2012.03.10 20:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:Honestly, it happens. It's probably extremely rare, but at 27% per attempt, that's a 73% chance of failure -- not exactly in your favor. I mean, what are you trying to invent? Ships? or do you just have low skills?
My skills are good, and yes, I'm inventing ships.
Cast two six sided dice 50 times. Only getting one instance of any number, like only one 6, or only one 5, is at roughly the same probability as what I'm describing. It's so very rare it's very nearly impossible. You'd have repeat your 50 streak of casting 2 dice like 40 000-50 000 times for it to enter the realm of plausible probability. That's not casting 2 dice 40000-50000 times; that's casting 2 dice 50 times 40000-50000 times; that's a total of 4-5 million times you'd have to cast a die for it to become even remotely likely that you'd hit a streak of 100 where you get only one instance of one particular number.
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Brock Nelson
416
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Posted - 2012.03.10 20:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
This isn't about probability, it's about statistics. Come back when you've conducted 1000 inventions and still have only 97% failure, then you might just have a legit complaint. Signature removed, CCP Phantom |

Liselle D'solos
InfoMorph Services Ltd
0
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Posted - 2012.03.10 21:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Brock Nelson wrote:This isn't about probability, it's about statistics. Come back when you've conducted 1000 inventions and still have only 97% failure, then you might just have a legit complaint.
I'll get right on it, my good chum. It's a pretty neat idea to spend approximately 1,1 trillion isk and approximately 4,5-5 years to prove a point to some random dude on a forum whose only remotely useful/constructive/entertaining comment was that I should've bought a lottery ticket instead.
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Brock Nelson
416
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Posted - 2012.03.10 21:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
You're what? #5212th person to cry about how he's got a ****** success in a limit run? Funny how we never hear back from any of them after someone says "Do more invention job" Signature removed, CCP Phantom |

Liselle D'solos
InfoMorph Services Ltd
0
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Posted - 2012.03.10 22:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Brock Nelson wrote:You're what? #5212th person to cry about how he's got a ****** success in a limit run? Funny how we never hear back from any of them after someone says "Do more invention job"
I've completed 22,580 invention attempts in 2011, I've had some bad runs, some good runs but in the end, it all balances out to what you're skilled at.
See, now you're being somewhat constructive.
If those 22580 attempts had all been made at 27% chance, hitting a single 44/45 fail streak in all of 2011 would still be only be 1 (one) in 169(ish) probable. That's 0.6%. Ish. Per 22580 attempts. Which took a year.
As for skills, I'm at 5/4/4, going for 5/5/4 at the moment. I'm inventing -1 me marauders btw.
See, I wouldn't be overly annoyed about failing, say, 19 out of 20 attempts, because that's within the realm of plausible probability, at 1,4% chance for every batch of 20 @ 27% chance of success. If the rates followed a normal distribution, one such streak could be expected for every 73ish runs of 20. The thing is, probability ain't linear.
(total attempts)*(fail_chance^(# fails)*(success chance^(# success)) = chance of getting that particular distribution
20 attempts * (0,73^(19 fails))*(0.27^(1 success)) = 0.0137 -> 1.37% chance of getting 19 fails and 1 success, or 1 in 73 batches of 20
40 attempts * (0,73^(39 fails))*(0.27^(1 success)) = 0.00005 -> 0.005%, or approx 1 in 19824 batches of 40
45 attempts * (0,73^(44 fails))*(0.27^(1 success)) = 0.00000097 -> 0.000097% chance, or approx 1 in a million batches of 45
Getting 39 fails out of 40, is 274 times less likely than getting 19 fails out of 20 tries. Getting 44 fails out of 45 tries is almost 52 times less likely than 39 fails out of 40, and 14124 times less likely than getting 19 fails out of 20.
Yeah, sure, if we talk really really huge numbers and tens of thousands of batches, the likelihood of getting one such swathe of fails increases with the number of tries, but, none the less, the chance of any single batch of 45 to produce 44 fails at 27% chance of success is still 1 in a million.
On a different note; when you enter start and finish invention jobs, do you enter then with time in between them, or just one after another? When you finish them, do you finish them all at once or all at once?
I've tried all four variations of those methods, but I haven't noticed any difference in success rates. |

Calipygian
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.03.10 23:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Here's my perspective on luck in an MMO. There are on the order of 300K people playing EVE (the actual number isn't that important, just that it's big). So if everyone was doing something, somebody would see one-in-a-million luck every few days. Obviously not everyone is doing invention, but the same scale still applies. If 1 in 50 people is doing invention at your scale, then you experienced some 1/167 bad luck. A bad break for sure, but by no means proof that something is broken. |

Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
48
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 01:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
I would like to introduce you to the little thing known as a random number generator
If you can not understand that then please go to a game that is much more baby friendly.
PS, I used to run well over 1000 invention jobs PER DAY, so I'm well versed in invention. Call it bad luck, ****** game design, your a moron! No matter what you call it, in the end and with thousands to tens of thousands of invention jobs, you will balance out to the "so-called" statistical chances of invention.
|

OfBalance
Caldari State
129
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 01:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aw man, you must be totally due for some wins by now. That's how the numbers work, or at least that's what my bookie keeps telling me. |

Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
112
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 01:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
If I had an ISK for every one of these posts...
Seriously, you were just unlucky, suck it up, etc.
45 runs is NOTHING, it's such a small sample that using it to verify whether the numbers are correct is literally stupid. Even if you did get the right numbers, it would still be stupid to draw conclusions from such a small sample. You can flip a fair coin 5000 times and have 5000 heads. The likelihood of THAT is very very small, but it's not 0 (i.e. the colloquialism that should apply is "unlikely" rather than "impossible"). If that happens to you and you know the coin is fair, congrats, you're seriously unlucky. That doesn't change the fact that the probability of tails or heads is 50%. The probability of you getting shitass results is different from the probability of each individual event occurring, don't confuse the two.
Run the numbers for two years like I've done, and you'll see that they really do work out pretty much right on. In fact, just do it for two months running a lot of jobs to have a sample of several hundred data points, and you'll probably see that you're approaching the expected %
Also, I just ran 50 drone invention jobs and got 45 BPCs (true story, not just a "for example"). If that happened to you, would you still come here angry that the system is broken? Chances are, no because you ended up on the good side of the distribution; likely you'd chalk it up to good luck rather than "baw broken". I've also run a few dozen jobs in a row before with 0 successful results. Very frustrating on an initial emotional response level, but I know that the numbers will work out in the end over a large enough sample (and they have), which tends to make me shrug it off and just go buy more datacores. This is why you need to have capital in excess of the estimated amount to do invention safely, as you may hit a rough patch like that and you should be able to bankroll your business.
PS: this might be of interest if you want some theoretical basis to steel yourself in case of terriawful invention luck. Pretty basic stats but helpful and applicable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_variable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_and_identically_distributed_random_variables |

Salcon Cliff
Zephyr Corp
42
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Posted - 2012.03.11 04:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:If those 22580 attempts had all been made at 27% chance, hitting a single 44/45 fail streak in all of 2011 would still be only be 1 (one) in 169(ish) probable. That's 0.6%. Ish. Per 22580 attempts. Which took a year. So, if his first 45 had 44 failures in 2011, the odds would have been 0.6% (no way am bothering to check the math).
Now, if your first 45 attempts has 44 failures in 2012, the odds were (according to you) 0.0001% (I rounded for ya).
So, since past or future 'rolls' have nothing to do with a specific set of 45 'rolls', why do you think there is a difference in his or your 45?
Ofc, I am not an actuarial, but I am pretty sure you aren't either...... |

Gyozshil154
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.11 06:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote: If that happened to you, would you still come here angry that the system is broken? Chances are, no because you ended up on the good side of the distribution; likely you'd chalk it up to good luck rather than "baw broken".
Agreed.
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Alyssa SaintCroix
Leihkasse Stammheim
22
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Posted - 2012.03.11 06:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's been my understanding, and I've never done T2 ship invention or ship invention at all for that matter so someone please feel free to correct me, but ship invention is a prime candidate for actually using the available decryptors. Looking at the price of Stolen Formulas in Jita (22mil), I think dropping that extra 22mil is worth the increase to what? 44% chance?
Just my musings... |

Ersteen Hofs
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 07:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Liselle D'solos wrote: Inversely, it is 99.999903% likely that you do not get only one success in only 45 tries @ 27% chance. That's pretty damn likely.
but if you consider all players doing invention, it's very likely that such thing happens to one of them once in a while.
so yeah, you're unlucky to be that one, this one time. |

Raisa Mole
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2012.03.11 08:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote:If I had an ISK for every one of these posts... Seriously, you were just unlucky, suck it up, etc. 45 runs is NOTHING, it's such a small sample that using it to verify whether the numbers are correct is literally stupid. Even if you did get the right numbers, it would still be stupid to draw conclusions from such a small sample. You can flip a fair coin 5000 times and have 5000 heads. The likelihood of THAT is very very small, but it's not 0 (i.e. the colloquialism that should apply is "unlikely" rather than "impossible"). If that happens to you and you know the coin is fair, congrats, you're seriously unlucky. That doesn't change the fact that the probability of tails or heads is 50%. The probability of you getting shitass results is different from the probability of each individual event occurring, don't confuse the two. Run the numbers for two years like I've done, and you'll see that they really do work out pretty much right on. In fact, just do it for two months running a lot of jobs to have a sample of several hundred data points, and you'll probably see that you're approaching the expected % Also, I just ran 50 drone invention jobs and got 45 BPCs (true story, not just a "for example"). If that happened to you, would you still come here angry that the system is broken? Chances are, no because you ended up on the good side of the distribution; likely you'd chalk it up to good luck rather than "baw broken". I've also run a few dozen jobs in a row before with 0 successful results. Very frustrating on an initial emotional response level, but I know that the numbers will work out in the end over a large enough sample (and they have), which tends to make me shrug it off and just go buy more datacores. This is why you need to have capital in excess of the estimated amount to do invention safely, as you may hit a rough patch like that and you should be able to bankroll your business. PS: this might be of interest if you want some theoretical basis to steel yourself in case of terriawful invention luck. Pretty basic stats but helpful and applicable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_variablehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_and_identically_distributed_random_variables
This, and thank you very much for pointing this out. In my time doing invention, I've had just as many sets of good luck as bad luck, but obviously you never see anyone posting a thread on the order of "I just had 45 successes out of 50 invention jobs, something must be broken!" In point of fact, since the odds of failure for the OP were 73% per job, while the odds of success are much lower, your 45/50 successes were a MUCH lower statistical proability than the OP's run of failures.
In short, as so many have said, that's life, bad runs happen just as much as good. If you wanted to you could statistically analyze your life and find that it's been a whole series of one-in-a-million shots. |

Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
93
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 09:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'm sorry, I tried invention the other day, 10 runs, 50.4% chance and got 60% success, so my extra 9.6% must have come from yours 
|

Rhiil
BlackWater Mining Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 15:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Breaker77 wrote:I would like to introduce you to the little thing known as a random number generatorIf you can not understand that then please go to a game that is much more baby friendly. PS, I used to run well over 1000 invention jobs PER DAY, so I'm well versed in invention. Call it bad luck, ****** game design, your a moron! No matter what you call it, in the end and with thousands to tens of thousands of invention jobs, you will balance out to the "so-called" statistical chances of invention.
yourGëáyou're |

FunGu Arsten
Vanguard Systems.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.11 16:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
so you're trying to invent paladins rite?! |

Verocity
8 Virtues
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 02:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
You know, it's also mathematically possible to have failed all 45 attempts but you did not. Perhaps be happy that one did succeed? |

Aggressive Nutmeg
124
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 03:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Most people struggle with standard deviation theory. 44 fails out of 45 attempts with a 27% chance of success would be well within expectations.
Nothing to see here. Move along. Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana. |

Nikodiemus
Perkone Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 05:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jesus Christ, math geeking won't help you at all. Imagine for a moment that programmers are not God and are just as fallible. Did you switch stations//corps with your invention? Did you use the same BPC stats with no meta gear or decryptors? Change up your nonsense or stop posting **** on forums that doesn't help anyone.
Variety is the spice of life. |

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
62
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Liselle D'solos wrote:(The system seems to have lost my original post. If this is a double post, please remove it.)
I've made 45 invention attempts @ 27% chance of success. Out of these, 1 (one) succeeded. Unless my math fails me, the likelihood of only getting one success in 45 tries @ 27% chance, is somewhere in the region of 9.7*10^(-7), or more explicitly, 0.000097%.
Now, CCP tells me this is normal. I say that 0.000097% likelihood is pseudo zero in terms of probability. It is literally 1 in a million. To put it another way: If I did a million batches of 45 attempts each, only roughly one of these batches should result in only one success, assuming 27% chance of success and perfect randomness. Since no RNG is perfectly random, there is going to be bias in the system, but this is just ridiculous.
So, who's right? Is this "normal" or is the system broken?
(The funny thing is, before this swathe of fails, I had a fairly normal distribution of fails and successes.)
This is normal, although pushing the envelope of bad luck. But as others have said the odds will even out over time.
look on the bright side. you just took 44 failures off the table. Statistically for every run of bad luck you should get a run of good luck to even it out.
So in theory if say it takes a batch of 1000 to consistently hit your 27% your remaining 955 runs will have a higher chance of success as you have 44 less failures in the 1000 run batch to worry about.
statistically at 27% you should get 12 successes in a 45 run batch. maybe you will hit a batch or two that will give you 15-20 successes out of 45 attempts. Just stick with it. in a large enough sample size the odds will always even out. |

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
543
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think your math is off. I looked up the binomial distribution in Wikipedia, put the equations into excel, and for a 27% success rate got the chance of one success in 45 tries as being 0.001%.
Given all the people doing invention in eve, I would expect such bad runs to occur now and then to someone. I am running for the CSM. Take a look at my ideas. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |

Tsubutai
The Tuskers
74
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
People win lottery jackpots with far higher odds against. You just got unlucky. |

Ford Chicago
Ziz Zag Ziggurat
9
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:look on the bright side. you just took 44 failures off the table. Statistically for every run of bad luck you should get a run of good luck to even it out.
No.
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: So in theory if say it takes a batch of 1000 to consistently hit your 27% your remaining 955 runs will have a higher chance of success as you have 44 less failures in the 1000 run batch to worry about.
No.
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: in a large enough sample size the odds will always even out. No, that is just the most likely outcome. |

Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Overall, I'm getting around 60%-ish success rate. But of the ten jobs I ran yesterday, only one succeeded. 10%. Welcome to Probability Land. |
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