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CSM Formal Meeting 5. Sunday 15th June. 18:00 hours Eve Time

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Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:57:00 - [1] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON As I've said to them and here I had no reason to believe this was some super secret list and I'd made them all aware of that. If you do not wish me to talk about a conversation then either tell me so or don't have it. I've never been anything other than honest. I have to ask, when you signed up to that mailing list, did your read the EULA because if it specified privacy like most lists then you're in breach... I'm not on the committee darius but where you come from (America i believe) Mailing lists are either open or closed, the same as everywhere else in the world. If you're not willing to keep a private mailing list private, you should remove yourself, not wait to be removed. Darius had personal permission to post the private communications that he posted. This trumps any such privacy agreement. Why is this true? Well because Darius only shared HIS communications. Which he has the express right to do.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 10:46:00 - [2] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: MotherMoon If it's a CSM discussion it should be public, if it's an information chat or e-mail like meeting at 5, sure whatever. but if it's a meeting it should be public, and if not public, it should be public to the CSM memebers at least. No, it's hardly discussions. So far the list has been used for publishing agenda items, submission templates, updates on agenda items like our internal calendar and things like that. Oh, and mud throwing(Hence why Darius probably wants everything to be public, so it can cause more drama). I have nothing to hide on that mailing list. But I do want people to respect my privacy. I want to be able to communicate with my fellow council members without having goons running around twisting my emails and putting words in my mouth, which will happen. It's obvious why people want the mailing list public. But I will vote against this. If the community wants CSM to run, we NEED communcation paths that can reach all council members, without threadnaughts spawning from every single email. If we don't have this ability, we will be unable to work effeciently. Thus, I'm stronly against it. So the public doesn't get to see these agenda items and submission templates? Why? What is wrong with them? You are fundamentally wrong in your characterization of goonswarm. We will put no words into your mouth. On the contrary we will quote you directly. Had jade not been saying things like "The only mistake i've made is allowing a little too much democracy" then we wouldn't have had to keep quoting it. Did Goons threadnaught the second meeting? No, we did not? Why did we not? Because people behaved themselves and didn't run ridiculous power plays. Just go look at the thread if you want proof. The only people posting in the thread is me, who has been disappointed in the lack of discussion that issues are getting due to inaction of the council and has been disappointed the entire time since the first agenda was laid out. And Athiron who has taken issue with roughly the same thing except with the specific instance of the council allowing multiple issues be lumped into the same votes.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 11:37:00 - [3] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Goumindong So the public doesn't get to see these agenda items and submission templates? Why? What is wrong with them? The agenda items are here to see right on the forum. As for the submission templates, I see no reason why the public shouldn't see them. So then what is the problem with making the communication public? If you don't talk about things that shouldn't be public anyway then why not just make it public? Its seems the only reason would be to allow yourself the opportunity to be petty and to enact power plays without the public being able to see just who is being dishonest with their vote and who is trying to screw all the others out of the votes that they cast.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:27:00 - [4] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Goumindong So then what is the problem with making the communication public? If you don't talk about things that shouldn't be public anyway then why not just make it public? No votes are casted via email. All votes are done during meetings, which are public. So your assumptions, which are extremely wrong, are just plain wrong. The reason why I don't want them public? Because I think it wont make a difference other than causing more drama. I do see why some wants that high degree of transperancy. But I think it's too easily abused as well. As I said, I have nothing to hide. I just think we should have at least some privacy. We could have to discuss things which are subject to NDA. Again, I wouldn't change my way nor usage of the mailing list, should it be public. It's that simple. I am sorry, i thought you said Quote: The agenda items are here to see right on the forum. As for the submission templates, I see no reason why the public shouldn't see them. It doesn't matter if we can see votes. I am not talking about votes(to get past your ridiculous strawman). The process is important and we have a right to view it. I want CSM reps to be voting based on what they think and not power plays. When a rep goes on a power trip I want to know about. There is no reason for reps to be insulated the voting public. So lets go over what we would see if it was made public Agenda items: Template Documents: Both of these are the public interest. Anything else there that should not be cannot be construed as have a public interest to be private unless its specifically discussing items covered by the NDA. The only reason to keep them secret is to allow people to exert influence over other reps for the purpose subverting the game towards a partisan agenda. So we have ample reason to make the records public because as you say, they ought to be. And we have ample reason to make them public to prevent any representative from any alliance from attempting to subvert the will of the people who rightly voted for their representatives.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 13:07:00 - [5] Originally by: LaVista Vista There was a reason the mailing list was created. No the mailing list was created because there was no read only forum that the CSM could post in but not anyone else. Quote: What do you think will happen if the mailing list does go public? Those who have things to hide use other means of communication. It's like disallowing drugs in real life. If things are disallowed they will be less obvious, more violent and much harder to investigate. This is nothing like drugs. There is no trade going on. There are no fiscal interests. Yea, people will communicate in other means. It happens. But that doesn't mean we cannot make all the communication we can as transparent as possible. Public institutions rely on transparency to keep undue influences from corrupting the process. Corruption of the process produces results that are not inline with the right and proper will that grants their authority. I.E. it makes it so the council will do less good for the game or more bad. How can that be a positive and why would anyone want to push for a situation that would increase the likelihood of that outcome. Quote: I think the only thing that would make me accept a public mailing list, would be if it was delayed 1-2 weeks so that nothing can be taken out of context because things are work in progress, just like certain people tend to do I am sorry, who is taking what out of context? Are we taking Jade barring a representative from a meeting out of context? Are we taking Jade editorializing a decision of the council out of context?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 13:47:00 - [6] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Goumindong I am sorry, who is taking what out of context? Are we taking Jade barring a representative from a meeting out of context? Are we taking Jade editorializing a decision of the council out of context? Why are you saying "we"? Do you feel aimed at? This has nothing to do with Jade either. Lets face it. The forum is filled with trolls and people who take things out of context for lulz and drama. We being the general forum population. There was no drama over the 2nd meeting when there was no clear problem. Why do you think that people are going to make problems when they have demonstrated both that if there is is nothing to be alarmed about they will not make it an issue?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 19:48:00 - [7] There is a lot here that is just plain terrible Qaed, so ill just get a few choice ones. Originally by: Qaedienne You should tell us that. As far as I know, you're the only CSM member to claim their constituency is not the playerbase as a whole (just Goonswarm). No. The only Candidate to do that has been Jade Constantine. For someone who is complaining about the level of drama, it seems you haven't read it. Quote: Plenty. Look anywhere on the EvE boards. Look especially in the agenda threads for the first two meetings. Lord, the drama was thick, the forums were being threadnaughted! [/sarcasm]
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 19:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Qaedienne The example of scheduling was used to point out that even mundane matters are crapped on and flamed by your alliance-mates. Specifically they accused Jade of being anti-American (or pro-Euro, possibly), among other things, because the timing didn't favor the U.S. CSM's. Instead of asking for the Euros to stay up an extra hour or two he demanded that the U.S. representatives, whom he had already shown bias against leave work early in order to make the meeting. They aren't accusing Jade of being anti-American, they are accusing her of using the meeting scheduling to skew the votes on the council. How in the world can you not understand that dissent can be justified? The judgment on the dissent is always hinged on the judgment of the cause of the dissent. If someone was making a stink because a someone said a bad word it would be one thing. This is entirely another.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:06:00 - [9] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Darius JOHNSON We were voting on whether or not to discuss an issue in Iceland. That issue being capital ships. I think we got a bit tied up in the details of what Bane's ideas were regarding the subject, which was an acid test I don't recall putting any other issues to. Each of us will have opinions on each of the issues presented in Iceland. We haven't had to examine all of them in order to decide they were worth discussing. v0v Well. The agenda for yesterday clearly stated that submission templates had to be in place before the meeting. I would have voted for the item if Bane had sticked to the submission template he did submit. But he started talking about capital shield transfers and all kinds of stuff. It wasn't just about capital ships online being bad. There is a big difference between capital shield transfers taking too much PG and then the topic at hand. I would have supported it if Bane split the issue up in pieces and had submitted templates for everything he started discussing, but that wasn't the case. I hope he will submit it for our CCP agenda in 2 months. It's an important issue, but I think he tried to do waaay too much. Capital shield transfers/RARs are an intimate part of capital balance, or lack there-of :psyduck:
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:34:00 - [10] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Goumindong Capital shield transfers/RARs are an intimate part of capital balance, or lack there-of :psyduck: I don't have access to the document Bane submitted. But that wasn't the topic of the document from what I recall. The document never talked about CST's and RAR's of any kind. When he started talking about those things, it was bound to fail because of the difference between the submission template and what he was on about. :psyduck: See point 1 1. disincentivizing carrier spam (gangs of 20+ carriers), 2, revisit titan doomsdays, 3. incentivize the use of smaller quantities of carriers (1-6)

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 09:27:00 - [11] Originally by: MotherMoon For the same reason we can't pay the beta that CCP is currently running of ambulation.if it's not done it should not be public. Should book companies let the rough copies of major books be public? you need to be able to tie up a bundle of sticks before you throw them out or someone will take that lose unbundled pile of sticks and take what they what out of context. The CSM is not a company, they have no financial interest in keeping its discussions public as authors and content creators do. They are a public institution accountable to the public. Your analogy is thus false.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 09:40:00 - [12] When your analogy fails instead start strawmanning?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 11:57:00 - [13] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Goumindong Well, what was his paragraph on it say? And what did the links say. Aside: This wouldn't be a problem be if discussion list was public. Oh ** now were taking things out of context because there isn't the context to back ** up. Its almost as if that is more likely to happen when the list is private. Or maybe it wouldn't have happened if all submission templates were public. The template is public, Jade released it in the meeting for agenda subject. The submission isn't. I still fail to see how more context can ever be bad.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 14:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Illaria Yes, while Bane is indeed one of the more respected GoonSwarm members and the capital issue appears less politically "loaded" now that the BoB vs. Coalition war is over, it doesn't relieve him of the duty to clarify and define what he puts up for vote. It's a bit amusing that Goons like to paint themselves as champions of transparency in one case, but demand that the other CSM members will blindly vote on their issues, relying only on good faith. It did however, relieve quite a few other members of that responsibility.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 19:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Jade Constantine So thats my position on the issue, and I completely oppose the principle that you deal with a "problem class" or "technique" by lowering the barriers to entry for that class or technique. Thats just counter-intuitive and in this specific case transcends game-balance into the realm of seeking partisan advantage for a hypothetical alliance for superior numbers of relatively low-skilled pilots and an aspiration to sit at the big boys capital table without doing the same training their rivals have already done to attain competency and military advantage in this field. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but we're the big boys. Getting cap ship pilots is not a problem for us.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Hamfast Lastly, Darius, I think you are mistaken on the "Submitted" information, while there will be "discussions" with CCP in Iceland, they (CCP) is required to respond to the documented issues submitted, if the document is lacking focus, then the response will be of little value. The problem is, is that many issues have been passed onto CCP in the guise of "having a discussion"
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Silence Duegood It's the only missile-based Caldari Command Ship, and the problem is not a small one (which a moderately focused read of the thread(s) will show). The problem has existed as long as the ship (read years). I don't expect a huge quantity of support, as not many people bother flying it. However, if you look at the linked thread from the Ideas and Features forum, it is up to 17 pages if I recall, and months old. The problem is, on the scope of things fairly small, and non-critical. Its one ship in a line of missile using ships for a purpose that directly mimics what Drakes do(and the Drake is fantastic). Now, it may be clearly lacking in powergrid(or hams using too much), but how easy an issue is to see doesn't necessarily mean that it should be escalated. I don't personally think it something that requires the council discussing it with CCP yet. And it looks like the majority of the council agreed. However, you can always ask Jade to see if he can make the argument on the side regarding the issue. It just means you won't get an official response and Jade probably can't tell you anything about how it went(NDA). But it might get something done.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Everyone who has an issue be it a pet issue or not is themselves convinced that the evidence is CLEAR. I personally don't fly nighthawks and know nothing about them. The bottom line is that if an issue is CLEARLY a problem you should be able to get more than 40 people to support it. Unfortunately it's as good a measurement as any that I'm personally going to get to go by because, as I said, I don't fly them though some goons have complained about it. Who knows? If the issue's that clear then maybe the devs will see it on their own and we won't even have had to bring it to their attention? Please, even the most obvious of issues like corporate email logging which would reasonably have every single CEO in the game telling their corps to vote for it to force it being pushed to the CSM have only received 500 votes. You voted to discuss destroying stations despite it having less than 40 votes at the time and having large opposition and effecting probably fewer people than the nighthawk problems did. Don't pull that populist BS. Either there was a good reason to not bring it to CCP or their wasn't. "I don't know what is going on" is not a good reason, though understandable since there is no easy mechanic by which the CSM can be educated and informed on the topic(with proper dissent of course), but the excuse of ignorance does not make the reason any better.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.17 01:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If you're going to call me on "BS" show the "BS". My statement was that I did not want to get into shiptypes. My statement was that if something was clearly a problem more people would support it. How is either of those incorrect in your eyes? Because some issues haven't gotten support? Because in YOUR OPINION it's a major issue even though very few seem to care enough to do anything about it? What other unit of measurement would you have me use when looking at issues I'm unfamiliar with? If it was clearly a problem more people would support it was your claim. The counter argument to that was "if that was true then we would see more support for issues such as email logging which affect a larger and more powerful userbase." That is, since we aren't your claim is false, whether or not its clearly a problem has little to do with the amount of support it gets. Quote: What other unit of measurement would you have me use when looking at issues I'm unfamiliar with? An objective unit of measurement obtained by examining the issue so that you are no longer unfamiliar with it Quote: If you don't like my explanation then that's fine. Insinuating that it's wrong because you don't like the result is what I would call ignorant. You might want to note that I would not have supported escalating this to CCP. It is not the result I am criticizing its the process.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.17 13:42:00 - [20] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON So you don't like the process Maybe i am not being clear. The process of how you are making the decision to vote no. If you don't think the issue warrants being sent to CCP, fine. If you don't learn about the issue before the vote, not fine.

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Yorda Wouldn't it make more sense to vote for it right now so you can have a discussion in Iceland about it and hopefully have your questions answered? I don't understand what you are asking there Yorda? If people don't agree/understand the proposition on the table they can't really vote "support". If people don't understand the issue[not proposition, issue] maybe they should get informed? I mean, God forbid we have a place on the forums where that can happen, or a time for when CSMs can ask questions...

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