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Tweek & Twink, has EvE become the relm of the tourny-fag of MMO's

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Atrial Quartz	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:41:00 - [1] Ok maybe i am just some old spacer who totally lost the plot, but is it just me or is everyone else getting tired of the insane mathematical equations involved in ship fittings. and what modules nerf what other modules. the magical combinations of skill X and mod Y that give people a unbeatable edge in PvP. Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players?
Surfin's PlunderBunny Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:42:00 - [2] It's not magical... it's mathematics I like it... it means you have to have half a brain to do well () () (â;..;)â (")(")
DubanFP Four Rings Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:43:00 - [3] Edited by: DubanFP on 12/06/2008 03:45:25 Originally by: Atrial Quartz Ok maybe i am just some old spacer who totally lost the plot, but is it just me or is everyone else getting tired of the insane mathematical equations involved in ship fittings. and what modules nerf what other modules. the magical combinations of skill X and mod Y that give people a unbeatable edge in PvP. Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players? Then you'll be screwing the players that are smart enough to like complexity. Makes it easy to kill those who can't handle it, like yourself. Sorry but there's A LOT of us who enjoy winning with our minds, and not just because we spent Eighty-nine million hours playing. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Atrial Quartz	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:49:00 - [4] Originally by: DubanFP Then you'll be screwing the players that like the complexity. it changes every few months, like some arbitrary fickle god was screwing with the reality behind the game. i have respeced so many times i lost count and i still only fly gallente ships. It's the KISS principal. Keep It Simple, Stupid. over complicating a system never makes it better. and in eve's case just leads to a ship-de-joure style of play where one or two builds will be combat effective for a given role ant the rest of the hundreds of items in that category are just useless trash.
Acies Invictus SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:49:00 - [5] Wait, I thought this was Counterstrike in space... Reason most PvP fits "outgun" PvE fits: Gank v Tank Since when was EVE simple? And why should it ever get simple? _______________________________________________ Human beings didn't evolve brains in order to lie around on lakes. Killing's the first thing we learned. And a good thing we did, or we'd be dead.
Atrial Quartz	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:59:00 - [6] i should have known better than to pose this question to the tourny-fags problem is no matter how i fit a ship it cant stand up to the min maxed twink ships and gankers out there that just copy-paste fits from this board for their specific ship. the amount of math required to fit an effective ship is bordering on mind numbing.
Ecky X Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:01:00 - [7] Before EFT, I worked out all of my fittings in notepad, doing the math the hard way. I always won fights, even if the players I was fighting had 5x as much SP. Now, it's simple to figure out a good fit, thanks to EFT. It makes me mad that people don't fold like paper anymore.
85 Echo Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:05:00 - [8] I don't know a lot of pilots who sit around and grind through the equations, most people just use eve fitting tool and some experience. Also, part of the reason for things like stacking penalties is to stop people from min maxing ships so much. I do agree though, pve ship fittings shouldn't be so totally unlike pvp ship fittings. It would be nice if missions called for more variety, but I guess then people couldn't solo them, and there would be a riot.
Atrial Quartz	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:12:00 - [9] Originally by: 85 Echo but I guess then people couldn't solo them, and there would be a riot. Heaven forbid people work together in a MMO. that's Harasy
Jmanis Catharg State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:20:00 - [10] Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 12/06/2008 04:22:05 Quote: problem is no matter how i fit a ship it cant stand up to the min maxed twink ships and gankers out there that just copy-paste fits from this board for their specific ship. the amount of math required to fit an effective ship is bordering on mind numbing. Y'know, you remind me of the people I used to face in RTS games. "You ***ing noob rusher, get some real skills" as I pop their last structure. If my opponents were actually capable* of preventing an early game rush, or forced me to engage their own rush with my own forces, it generally meant they were a semi-competent player, and this would result in exciting, drawn out battles. So you made a fit whose weakest resist was EM and they dealt EM, you fit for ECM and they had an ECCM, you fitted for cap warfare and their fit was cap-neutral. So what? Build a damn bridge. The variety of fits possible out there is what makes EVE awesome.
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:24:00 - [11] Edited by: Hannobaal on 12/06/2008 04:24:22 All it takes to know how to fit ships in Eve is a little bit of experience and some common sense. The basic principles of Eve combat are really pretty simple.
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:28:00 - [12] Once in a while I see one of those topics on the internets that just makes me go "Wow, that was ********." Grats to the op for 10 seconds of entertainment.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Atrial Quartz Originally by: 85 Echo but I guess then people couldn't solo them, and there would be a riot. Heaven forbid people work together in a MMO. that's Harasy Heresy
Apoctasy The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:02:00 - [14] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny It's not magical... it's mathematics I like it... it means you have to have half a brain to do well this. Oh and OP, WOW is that way ---->
Modrak Vseth Veto.	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Atrial Quartz it changes every few months, like some arbitrary fickle god was screwing with the reality behind the game. i have respeced so many times i lost count and i still only fly gallente ships. So stop trying to fly FOTM. You'll never "catch up" if that's how you view PvP.
Epegi Givo Demon Theory	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Apoctasy Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny It's not magical... it's mathematics I like it... it means you have to have half a brain to do well this. Oh and OP, WOW is that way ----> and 3 steps further you will find SWG! agreed, One thing I love about EVE is how it isn't super simple, you actually have to balance many factors to come up with a good setup, you actually have to work your poor neglected brain!
Keorythe Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Atrial Quartz Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players? You like many other PvE'ers have this problem with PvP that stems from your belief that it is judged by "duel" standards. Unfortunately EvE is not like that. While a single setup is somewhat effective it is nowhere near as effective as fleet role specific setups. Even an uber l33t fitted Vagabond can be taken down by a T1 fitted blackbird and taranis combo if the pilots know their stuff. Shall we even bring up the infamous Hulk or Badgers of death immortalized by video? EvE isn't about two guys in a ring slugging it out. Its more about 3 guys working together to catch, pin, and beat down a single guy.
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Atrial Quartz Ok maybe i am just some old spacer who totally lost the plot, but is it just me or is everyone else getting tired of the insane mathematical equations involved in ship fittings. and what modules nerf what other modules. the magical combinations of skill X and mod Y that give people a unbeatable edge in PvP. Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players? thats what makes eve interesting... your choises matter. i dont want this to be WoW where u grind your way to a sertain gear and the end...
auverne	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:09:00 - [19] no, go away, i started playing this game because it looked complex and you want to take my fun away from me :( me no like you ^^
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Xparky on 12/06/2008 06:17:08 You got eft and you still think it's complicated ? Grow a brain, maybe .
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:24:00 - [21] i LOVE the complexity. absolutely what got me into eve. i'm the sort of person who does capacitor vs usage graphs, and runs them through monte carlo DPS simulators to see if a caldari navy XL booster will be better than a T2, and at what capacitance recharge rate does the CL booster's lower cap cost becomes enough to perma-run (assuming occasional tractor). keep in mind that while the T2 does use more cap, it also does more boost (specially with boost amps) so needs to be triggered less, so actually uses less CAP in some cases. i cannot get this not only from any other MMO, but almost from any other game. (for the other complexity junkies, check out Dwarf Fortress. it's a freeware. it's a great game if you say to yourself "sure, i want a simcity where i can drop cows 200 feet, but when i do, i want all the guts to be modeled accurately as to how far up they bounce back")
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Tri Optimum Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Atrial Quartz cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players? well .. it's quite simple tbh. a.) you need a scout/tackler - web, scram & MWD needed b.) you need someone to deal damage c.) EW support can be handy to increase the survival rate of your ships there ya go. why are NPCing setups inferior to PvP setups? because most NPCer don't think in PvP terms. they just think "all i have to think about are NPCs" ... well, no surprise when your setup has big resistance holes, utility slots that are filled by tractor beams/salvager. tractor beams & salvagers won't win you fights, heavy neuts might do :P ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Kravick Drasari	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:40:00 - [23] Originally by: 85 Echo Also, part of the reason for things like stacking penalties is to stop people from min maxing ships so much. I'd have to say theres also some balance involved. Can you imagine what kind of damage a blaster fitted Megathron with 7 Magnetic Field Stabilizers IIs in the lows could do without diminishing returns? Or any other ships for that matter.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Atrial Quartz problem is no matter how i fit a ship it cant stand up to the min maxed twink ships and gankers out there that just copy-paste fits from this board for their specific ship. the amount of math required to fit an effective ship is bordering on mind numbing. What kind of nonsense is this? You complain that you not can match their twinked ships and that the mathematics to make those twinks are too mind numbing. AND at the same time you state that they are just copy-pasting their setup of these boards, which requires no skill at all. What is stopping YOU from copy-pasting a ship setup from the boards if you find making the ideal fit so complicated? You sure your mind numbness is not due to something different?
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:08:00 - [25] Copy-paste ship setups? Yes, you'll see a lot of those in PVE, since the opposition never changes, and every fight is based around the same basic strategy: 1. Tank your ass off. 2. Do at least enough DOT to break the enemy's tank. 3. Go make a sandwich while they die. You will always face vastly more numerous, but vastly weaker enemies, so the tank vs. gank decision always lands on the "tank" side. You never have to worry about EWar, since NPC:s don't use the same mechanics, and there's no point in trying to counter it. You never really have to worry about omni-tanking vs. hoping for a particular damage type, or about hoping you're packing the right weapon - you know their damage types and damage weaknesses before going into battle. You never have to plan contingencies for surpises - you always know what's coming. You rarely have to worry about nasty multi-prong attack combinations, since you can usually pick and choose your aggro. …none of this holds true for PvP (apart from the FOTM), and going for standard fits there just makes you a more predicable (aka easier) target.
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 12/06/2008 09:14:42 LOL, PvE ships may suck only if YOU make them such. For instance, who can you blame for fitting these stupid cap relays, cap rechargers etc. other then yourself? It's evident that wasting so many slots for nothing gets you into trouble when you face a correct setup. Also, what do you really expect to achieve when fitting salgaver and tractor beam to, say, abaddon, while it's just bound to have 8 guns? Sure thing, you'll get outgunned. And so on. Just admit it: you make those primitive cap-stable setups, which you think are not a cookie-cutter ones? Do you really expect them to be competative with decent ones?
Silver Night Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Kravick Drasari Originally by: 85 Echo Also, part of the reason for things like stacking penalties is to stop people from min maxing ships so much. I'd have to say theres also some balance involved. Can you imagine what kind of damage a blaster fitted Megathron with 7 Magnetic Field Stabilizers IIs in the lows could do without diminishing returns? Or any other ships for that matter. There used to be something called a Gankageddon. It was like being touched by God. The bad touch though. One of the big reasons for the stacking nerf.
Karlemgne Tides Of War Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:28:00 - [28] I understand what you are saying, I really do. So much time these days is fitting ships in EFT and barking at others about DPS, cap stability to the second, DPS and defensive scores. That's not why I play eve, and its annoying to have some forum whoring dude who's never flown a particular ship lecturing others about their fittings based on what he or she did on EFT. The truth of the matter though is that despite eve being a game of percentages, such micro managing of setups provides only the most marginal of advantages. Not only does skill, reaction time, and combat experience play a role in the outcomes of combat in eve, but pvp is dynamic. You never know what you're going to run into, what the other person as fit, or how a situation is going to change. -K
Julio Torres Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:42:00 - [29] Sorry, but theres NO one way to fit a ship correctly. There is several "themes" to fit them around. But in the end, to do well, it must be fit to your play style. As a example, theres many ways to fit a Nano-rapier. Ofcourse you can learn to fly a described fit, but it will often be a expensive lesson
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:44:00 - [30] Combine personal experience with the tools EFT give you to make setups, and try to ignore the equations. When in doubt, check Scrapheap's setups for a bit of an idea as to where to begin with a certain ship. Goal Line Blitz, an American Football browser game.
Mizz Wolf	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:45:00 - [31] The OP is the reason I use PvP setup ships even for PvE (true story). I can always go back for that salvage Dessie I have at base, and there is nothing like ganking someone that jumps into your mission simply because you have a warp scram AND webbie on your BC doing L2 missions. :) Fit your ship for the space you are flying in, not the mission you are running imo. Sure, an active tank PvP fit BS might take you LOADS longer to finish an L4, but it's that much sweeter when some PvP BC (or even better, frigate/cruiser gang) comes in expecting to find a PvE fit Maelstrom tangling with NPC rats only to have you eat it/them alive, along with the rats.
ShardowRhino Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:02:00 - [32] Edited by: ShardowRhino on 12/06/2008 10:04:19 Edited by: ShardowRhino on 12/06/2008 10:02:53 Originally by: Atrial Quartz i should have known better than to pose this question to the tourny-fags problem is no matter how i fit a ship it cant stand up to the min maxed twink ships and gankers out there that just copy-paste fits from this board for their specific ship. the amount of math required to fit an effective ship is bordering on mind numbing. The bitterness is strong with this one. insulting people that gave at least semi valid answers isn't going to get you an answer you want. you dont want an answer, you just want to bleed like a 13 year old girl and scream and cry about her first period. your here to whine, not get a real answer because honestly your question was answered. you cant expect a poorly designed ship loadout to take on the ship of someone that has spent hours,days,weeks or more tinkering with their fitting until they found the perfect setup for the way they fight. you want to complain that you cant beat him easily with a crap fit that looks like your hangar just vomited onto your ship. You cant expect to go farm guristas and take on a ship that has been designed to slay gurista farmers. you have 3 choices 1.STFU and start thinking and learn the game beyond "fit kinetic resists and kinetic ammo to kill guristas,em and em for sanshas". start thinking how other players operate, instead of crying and accusing people of copy and pasting set ups,check them out and pick them apart and learn how to beat the ones youve been SMASHed by. 2.Sit there qqing like the limp wristed nub youve been and continue to be Roadkill anytime someone that spent 5 minutes learning how to pvp rolls through the system. take on forum topics that you have a better chance of winning such as "jita is laggy omfg!!" 3.Leave the game and go play...wait for it..............HelloKitty online and rp being a 13 year old japanese girl that got her first period,you'll actually be believable and....wait for it.............contract your stuff to ShardowRhino and pay tribute to my bank account with your isk. seriously next time dont try to cop a superior attitude when your clearly the inferior. if you cant figure out why a ratting fitting is g oing to get spanked and hit with the DP from behind by every pirate out there, your clearly the mentally challenged player on this thread.
Astria Tiphareth	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg If my opponents were actually capable of preventing an early game rush, or forced me to engage their own rush with my own forces, it generally meant they were a semi-competent player, and this would result in exciting, drawn out battles. Too right. I have been there, got overwhelmed, and learnt something in the process. It doesn't matter how you win, as long as you win. One bit EVE lacks is real education of players - there's a bit too much 'this is great, that is rubbish' and flavour of the month on the forums; if someone could see what mistakes they are making and learn from them, they'd end up better players, and the above would happen more often, where you have fun fights instead of totally one-sided fights. Originally by: Jmanis Catharg The variety of fits possible out there is what makes EVE awesome. Reminds me of a time when a Combat Recon caught me with my pants down while ratting and popped me in a raven while ratting. Couple weeks later one tried it again, exactly the same circumstances, except I got down to 50% shields before I sent it running in hull. Exactly so. Indeed if it wasn't too long I'd use it as a sig, to show that Ravens can have teeth, and that fittings are complex for a reason, to provide variety and chance in combat. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...

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