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Element 22	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:19:00 - [1] Why don't I see them? Is it a tracking issue? Because I thought at greater distances tracking wouldn't matter so much because the angular velocity needed to track the enemy would be less. Or did they exist and were nerfed into oblivion? (I ask this because I was being an EFT warrior. My main computer that runs eve has stopped for some reason I don't know if it's my motherboard, monitor or video card. And a skill ends tomorrow night too ) Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:22:00 - [2] They work "fine" with autocannons, but highs full of guns kinda kills any sort of spider ability within a "pack". Falloff is cool and all but don't forget it reduces your damage.... If you meant artillery, don't make me giggle.
Element 22	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:30:00 - [3] Are you a girl? I love making girls giggle. Guys...not so much, just feels awkward...anyways, yeah I was referring to them. A pack of 4-6 maelstrom (seem like they) can pretty much pop a BS in one volley (not spider tanking) from 50 km or so. So....are you done giggling yet? It's ok, you don't need to really breathe for about 3 minutes anyways, and if you black out it will take care of the giggles and the oxygen problem. Unless you continue giggling while knocked out; in which case you're simply a scary scary person. Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:32:00 - [4] Maybe because a similar pack of armageddons could do the exact same thing for half the price and prettier colors?
Tamoko	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:40:00 - [5] Originally by: AstroPhobic and prettier colors? ---
Element 22	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:43:00 - [6] Maelstrom: 164 Millons ISK 5328 alpha Armageddon 81.5 million ISK 2417 Sure you get half the firepower at half the price, but you also need twice the people, and I thought the premise of a wolfpack was a small group with high first strike capability the relied on killing the enemy before they could put any real or significant damage on them. Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Element 22 Maelstrom: 164 Millons ISK 5328 alpha Armageddon 81.5 million ISK 2417 Sure you get half the firepower at half the price, but you also need twice the people, and I thought the premise of a wolfpack was a small group with high first strike capability the relied on killing the enemy before they could put any real or significant damage on them. You need to check your numbers Maelstrom: 5861 alpha at 30km (RF EMP, just for giggles) Armageddon: 3945 alpha at 33km (AN MF) Yes the geddon sacrifices a rig and RCU II to fit it, but since you're "warping out", it doesn't matter right? I even dropped a damage mod to be "fair", even though that makes no sense. It seems the maelstrom still has a clear lead. But wait! Lets check align times. Maelstrom: 17.1 s, meaning with a ROF of just under 10, you can fire twice. Geddon: 16.4 s, meaning with a ROF of 5.16, you can fire FOUR times, AND warp out quicker. 5861(2) = 11722 Damage before warping 3945(4) = 15780 Damage before warping (and prettier colors) Astro
Element 22	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:55:00 - [8] Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Element 22 I understand. That's why there's been so many threads on fixing the tempest and artillery.
Element 22	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:07:00 - [10] Wait, so let me get this straight: The supposed strong points of the Minmatar: Hit and run tactics and Speed tanking Are done better by other races as well as having insanely high skill requirements to use correctly because of the split weapons and defensive systems, have the easiest jammed system. So....are they fundamentally broken? Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.

AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 02:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Element 22 Wait, so let me get this straight: The supposed strong points of the Minmatar: Hit and run tactics and Speed tanking Are done better by other races as well as having insanely high skill requirements to use correctly because of the split weapons and defensive systems, have the easiest jammed system. So....are they fundamentally broken? (See the edit above) I keep going over this in my head, but I really can't find the strong parts in minmatar anymore. There's still some good ships (Rifter, Rupture, Vagabond, Huginn/Rapier, Broadsword), but the rest of them just fail in almost every single aspect of the game. I won't say they're broken, but they're definitely outclassed in just about every respect of the game. The only strong parts in minmatar anymore are using ACs and oversized buffer (due to low PG), and nano. Oh, and the typhoon, because it's sex. PS. Don't even get me started on capital ships...
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:12:00 - [12] You can always show you concerns here: Minmatar cap ships are terrible 1400mm Buff large AC's It's a new section on the forums to raise issues to the CSM. Remember to select "I support this thread" when posting if you support the idea.
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.06.14 04:58:00 - [13] Originally by: AstroPhobic I keep going over this in my head, but I really can't find the strong parts in minmatar anymore. There's still some good ships (Rifter, Rupture, Vagabond, Huginn/Rapier, Broadsword), but the rest of them just fail in almost every single aspect And, if you think about it for a bit, you'll notice that the vagabond has gone to the tail of the pack too. It really isn't worth flying nowadays. Minmatar Boost Brigade
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.06.14 05:05:00 - [14] Arty sucks, as they should. Use autos.
Toolivus Verdant Inquiries	Posted - 2008.06.14 06:08:00 - [15] So is there a reason that artillery 'should suck'? Or are you just a ******* idiot?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.06.14 08:34:00 - [16] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/06/2008 08:37:16 You probably dont see a lot of long range Maelstroms because artillery only gets you laughed at... Fighting in falloff range means lots of damage reduction. And then when you want to get the heck out of there, the ship moves like a big fat snail... Its not my favorite ship. Its pretty good up close with autocannons, but has a hard time actually getting up close. Its the usual average minnie battleship. --- Its dead, Jim.
ShadowlordUK Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.06.14 12:17:00 - [17] Minmatar have some of the best ships in the game.... Stilleto, Vagabond, Sleipnir, Claymore, Phoon, rapier, huggin. Guess what! No one race has ALL the best ships. The maelstrom is very, very good at tanking... if you dont tank it, dont complain that its not good enough if you arent even using its main strength . Otherwise why not complain that the scorp hasnt got great dps.... Try using a tempest... its cheaper and probably more in line with what you need.
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.14 12:29:00 - [18] This thread looks to me like a guy who spent some time thinking and then created a whole fictitious (and ridiculous) dialogue with his alt... I give it a 90% chance of being a troll and therefore IBTL! Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:51:00 - [19] Quote: Minmatar have some of the best ships in the game.... Stilleto, Vagabond, Sleipnir, Claymore, Phoon, rapier, huggin. Guess what! No one race has ALL the best ships. The maelstrom is very, very good at tanking... if you dont tank it, dont complain that its not good enough if you arent even using its main strength Rolling Eyes. Otherwise why not complain that the scorp hasnt got great dps.... Rolling Eyes Try using a tempest... its cheaper and probably more in line with what you need. Worst. Arguments. Ever. First. These aren't the "best" ships at what they do. Stiletto has 4 mids, awesome, but it still does what ever other interceptor does, which is tackle. Try seeing how long a double web will last. Vagabond is great at killing inties and small support, but so are the eagle, zealot, harbinger... it's DPS is weak and it's a decent solo ship because it's fast. There's plenty of nanoHACs floating around. Sleipnir and Claymore are odd, because they have that very rare tanking bonus, that's completely out of line with our race's normal bonuses. However, fitting this tank is hell on CPU, and your damage output is completely pathetic compared to other races' CS. Rapier and Huginn are useful recons, but so is the curse and falcon. You can't just sit and call them the best recons. The only reason the maelstrom is half decent is BECAUSE of it's tanking bonus. It's very uncharacteristic of minmatar, and the maelstrom doesn't feel like a minmatar boat at all. Take away that tanking bonus in favor of a gun bonus and watch this ship fall flat on it's face. Please don't even get me started on the tempest... Originally by: Crellion This thread looks to me like a guy who spent some time thinking and then created a whole fictitious (and ridiculous) dialogue with his alt... I give it a 90% chance of being a troll and therefore IBTL! Actually, I'm pretty sure I've argued with/yelled at/called him an idiot before. Perhaps an eve-search shall do.
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:53:00 - [20] Originally by: ShadowlordUK Minmatar have some of the best ships in the game.... Stilleto, Vagabond, Sleipnir, Claymore, Phoon, rapier, huggin. Guess what! No one race has ALL the best ships. The maelstrom is very, very good at tanking... if you dont tank it, dont complain that its not good enough if you arent even using its main strength . Otherwise why not complain that the scorp hasnt got great dps.... Try using a tempest... its cheaper and probably more in line with what you need. And therefore Minmatar should have **** battleships I hate your logic.

Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:38:00 - [21] Edited by: ***pipe2000 on 14/06/2008 16:39:55 The amarrian engineers obviously noticed that it is quite a good idea to fit in the hit & run philosophy on ships with superior endurance and damage output. Crusader was the prototype of peak performance mobility, endurance and damage. And everybody saw how it affected their enemies counterpart. But hey, its obviously not like superior mobility is some kind of a licenced trademark, so why not just apply that to all ships in range from frigate to capital. Its only fair that the cement trucks get a chance on F1's.
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:45:00 - [22] Mega kills Geddon and Maelstrom kills Mega = Nerf the Maelstrom 0_0 111 eleventy and one. win post in win thread :Z Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Crellion Mega kills Geddon and Maelstrom kills Mega = Nerf the Maelstrom 0_0 111 eleventy and one. win post in win thread :Z Being a tool doesn't make the thread look stupid; it makes you look stupid.
Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:00:00 - [24] So, apparently these Minmatar trolls want all of their ships to be either solo pwnboats or so powerful you can make wolfpacks with them. Greed, greed, greed.
Element 22	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:35:00 - [25] I leave the forums for a day and it dissolves into flamefest...awesome Anyways, I'm not his alt, in anyway shape or form unless he's my RL doppelgSnger (which I doubt). And it doesn't appear that the Minmatar pilots want special treatmenmt, they just want their race's class of ships more aligned to what they should be. Also: Minmatar should be the wolfpack race. There is nothing wrong with wanting that. Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Zurin Arctus So, apparently these Minmatar trolls want all of their ships to be either solo pwnboats or so powerful you can make wolfpacks with them. Greed, greed, greed. How about in line with other battleships? That would be a giant boost.
Cautet Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.16 13:35:00 - [27] Edited by: Cautet on 16/06/2008 13:36:19 You do see a good number of both Maelstroms and Tempests in long range combat. I won't get into boost this boost that stuff because this thread makes other more fatal assumptions. People posting figures for 30-33km - This is not a very good range for Battleships despite what EFT might tell you. You can't tackle at that range and there are recons, hacs, and intys that excell at that range or similer range, and can control range better than you. 50km - similer problem. Essentially you will be scramed, webbed, and have a hot poker shoved up your behind before you can align and warp. Oh, btw please don't post figures for how many rounds you can shoot in 10 seconds - you need to lock first, you also have other variables such as pulsing MWD, which completely destroy all of your assumptions. I do hope that geddon fit HAD a mwd with a realistic pvp fit by the way. Simply put, BS excell either close range or long range. At medium range they simply do not have the time to control range long enough to take advantage of it, unless you are just against other battleships, and then there are different variables to consider, including speed, manuverability, neuts, range, tracking, and cap stability. More importantly though is how well you support can control bother thier battleships and their support so your bs can get on with killing their battleships. At short range utility slots are usefull if using a gang due to remote reps. At long range Maelstron is the best option. So please figures for 150-170 km. Also you will need to hold your opponent down, so support is needed for a BS gang, even it's just a lone dictor. This thread doesn't prove anything because the assumptions are invalid.
Dalek Commander	Posted - 2008.06.16 13:53:00 - [28] The Devs had to balance the race some how. You couldn't give the Minmatar some of the best mid range ships in the game, and also the best battleships too. Broadsword, Rapier, Vagabond, Sabre, Stiletto etc.. These are some of the most feared ships in skirmish warfare, and a lot of fun to fly too. The Phoon is one of the funnest ships to fly, and once mastered is capable of putting out some decent damage for the price (my corp sells them to me for 52m). It's the Pest and Maelstrom that fail once you start comparing bang for your isk.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.16 14:38:00 - [29] For me main reason you don't see as many Maelstorms out there is that gangs play mostly with remote armor reps and possibly 1 high slot of the Maelstorm may be "lost" to install a remote armor rep. That is why people prefer the Tempest. I think people in general are a bit confused on the power of minmatar BSes. They are not so good for PvE put for PvP are valid till first 10 shots at least. Then it's lag time. (reloading). The no cap need is very beneficial in PvP where you play with passive resistences and lots of hp buffer. For example i am an Apocalypse lover. For certain you ll have notice me commending always in favor of the Apocalypse in numerus threads with this character or my other Darth Vaders. Despite all that i find more likely to use Tempest for PvP for normal sniping fleet fit (up to 160km) compaired to anything else unless i would go for ultra sniping fit where i would most likely use Maelstorm (paper armor ultra sniper fit ) The thing is that most PvPers prefer the Megathron since it offers better optimal and is sturdier but all things taken into consideration the Minmatar ships aren't that bad either.They are no the weak link of the gang they may be overall slightly weaker under certain circumstances ....well i can live with that. After all the gang survivability isn;t based on if you are flying BS A or BS B but rather if your scouts are competent or if your commander is decent or if the guy that is giving targets is comprehensible . _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.16 14:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Element 22 Maelstrom: Sure you get half the firepower at half the price, but you also need twice the people, and I thought the premise of a wolfpack was a small group with high first strike capability the relied on killing the enemy before they could put any real or significant damage on them. Really a wolf pack implies using lots of smaller ships to take down a larger ship in a "death of a thousand paper cuts" scenario. That is afterall why Wolf's hunt in packs - to make up for the fact that their prey is many times larger than they are. Using alpha to insta pop ships is more of a "build a brick wall in the middle of the highway" scenario.



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