The CSM pointed out that the source of much of the dissatisfaction was that people were afraid it
would become mandatory to spend real life money on things like ships and ammo to remain
competitive. The CSM emphatically reiterated their stance that EVE players should not have to spend
real life money to have an advantage over other players, since anything of that nature would render the
EVE sandbox pointless. CCP clearly stated again that there are not, nor have there ever been, any plans
of this nature.

CCP mentioned what an amazing feeling it is to see such passion for EVE from the community. Even
though the source of the display was unfortunate, the level of emotion and dedication involved was
both touching and humbling.

The CSM further stated it was necessary that any and all further development of virtual goods strategy
needs to be done in cooperation with the CSM and the players. This cooperation is necessary as, due to
the complexity of EVE, there are many gray areas where services can be GÇô and/or are already being GÇô
offered that need community input.

CCP clearly stated that the investment of money in EVE should not give a player an unfair advantage
over the investment of time.

Is there any comment by the CSM about how they feel about these minutes?

The CSM pointed out that the source of much of the dissatisfaction was that people were afraid it would become mandatory to spend real life money on things like ships and ammo to remain competitive.

The CSM emphatically reiterated their stance that EVE players should not have to spend real life money to have an advantage over other players, since anything of that nature would render the EVE sandbox pointless.

If the CSM did really voice these concerns as represented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.

They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.

The CSM pointed out that the source of much of the dissatisfaction was that people were afraid it would become mandatory to spend real life money on things like ships and ammo to remain competitive.


If the CSM did really voice these concerns as presented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.

They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.

They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.

Players: "Players are concerned with having to spend RL money to stay competitive"

CCP: "No single player has to spend real-life money, any player can just buy AUR with ISK (via PLEX)."

Players: "But someone has paid for that PLEX..."

CCP: "So players are concerned with other players spending RL money on ISK (via PLEX)?"

Players: "yes... no... but this would increase PLEX demand! PLEX prices would go up, up, up! Everything would be very expensive..."

CCP: "Ahh... so this is about the ISK cost of (game-affecting) NeX items?
"And as long as we manage to maintain an agreeable balance between ISK (aka time investment) and PLEX/AUR (aka money investment) power MTs are fine?"

Players: "ahem... no ... power MTs are BAD!"

CCP: "But why???"

Those minutes didn't really seem to say anything we didn't already know, and no new specifics seem to have been clarified further... Given the rather banal nature, I'm left even more confused as to why it took so long and caused so much back and forth between the CSM & CCP...

The CSM portions seem genuine as to how they felt about the issues and presented them to CCP. But each of CCP's sections read like marketing doublespeak. I can't imagine the Mittani, Seleene or any of the others sitting there listening to such tripe and not losing their minds with the sheer volume of non-answers.

'Because that's our strategy', 'Because that's what our market research said' and 'Because we're taking baby steps' are not answers that will win hearts and minds. It's all a dodge. The fundamental question the CSM asked that CCP did not answer is 'why the hell are you doing all of this without at least flashing it at this elected body, whose singular purpose is to facilitate conversations between you and your customer.'

It shows me that while individual devs may support and appreciate the CSM's role, management in general simply doesn't see their use.

CCP also explained that due to the realities of business and the complexities of the EVE socio-economic system, it could not give the all-encompassing and definitive answers about virtual goods that the community demanded in the days before the summit, and felt they had to maintain the flexibility to adapt to changes in the MMO environment in the future.

CCP responded that it was already paying the long-term cost of having given such definitive answers in the past and was learning from this prior experience by not doing the same thing again.

CCP Xhagen's newest blog contains the meeting minutes from the Special Summit the CSM had with CCP earlier this summer. You may read the blog, and the minutes, here.

In short, I don't feel the emergency meeting did appropriately address my concerns as a player and these minutes leave me feeling short-changed and frustrated at the lack of penetrating debate and substantive commitment gained from CCP.

I for one would like to know what previous promise to the players CCP feels they have suffered from making - if they have ended up keeping it - and whether the players would have preferred they keep it.

that there would be no microtransactions in eve

oops

That's okay, there still aren't.

Because this isn't EVE anymore?

Because this isn't EVE anymore?

So then, from all the posts below the one I made last I assume more ppl noticed a clear lack of "NO! we will not be making any "gold ammo" items"

The CSM leveled harsh criticism at the decision to not release all the items CCP had available when the NeX was opened. CCP replied that the decision was fully in line with the strategy of taking small steps, observing the results and then taking the next steps. The alternative would have meant releasing too much at once, which would have severely hampered CCP's ability to react to launch feedback and adjust strategy.

I think it's still pretty clear they intend to go in that direction, it's just not an immediate plan.

Reading through it now. Wow.

If THIS is what ended up being the version acceptable to the CSM, I can't even begin to imagine how biased CCP's initial versions were.

The whole thing reads like a CCP press release, with a few defensive bits here and there.

After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar made some suggestions as to its tone. The CSM thanked
Hilmar for his advice, but decided that it properly expressed their conclusions. It was released unedited.

Both before and during the meeting the CSM also expressed their desire for the return of ship spinning, as spinning the ship in station is a meaningful part of the game experience to many players. To address both this issue and performance concerns, CCP offered to implement an environment that would be similar in look and function to the old hangar view, and would include ship spinning. It should be noted that the old hangar view itself will not be returning, but something similar will take its place. The CSM will be kept informed throughout the design of this feature. The option to disable the loading of station environments will be retained until this matter has been addressed.

The CSM generally agreed that from a purely technical standpoint, Incarna had generally been a very successful expansion. Apart from the usual and expected hiccups, the deployment of the software was very smooth.

Those minutes didn't really seem to say anything we didn't already know, and no new specifics seem to have been clarified further... Given the rather banal nature, I'm left even more confused as to why it took so long and caused so much back and forth between the CSM & CCP...

yes, I bet that was exactly what happen, polite and all...

--

This is what I imagine that really happen at that point:

After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar picked up the sword won in the last fanfest and immediately try to kill Mittens. Thanks to his fast spy moves, Mittens ducked and disarmed Hilmar. Then a fist fight started between the two. A huge brawl then started with the remaining CSM members grabbing Zulu and using him as a punching bag. Mittens and Hilmar epic fight lead them to the corridors and several rooms of the building. After 20 minutes Hilmar asked for parley and the fight stop. At this point Hilmar looks up and says "what is that" and when Mittens looks up he runs away never to be seen or heard to this day. After Zulu lost is conscience and Hilmar run away, the CSM statement was released unedited.

Now if something like this was in the minutes I would believe it faster then I believe in that sentence above.

this happened

CCP began the session by stating for the record that there are not, nor have there ever been, any plans to introduce game-breaking items or enhancements to EVE. The GÇ£FearlessGÇ¥ internal newsletter

CCP : words, we need lots of words to say precisely nothing new at all

The player providing the RL money for a performance boost would often not even know what was just bought with his money as all he did was sell a PLEX for ISK.

...

But the actual sentences credited to the CSM in these minutes don't expound on this issue (of perspectives & equilibrium) and instead give CCP an easy way out.

The whole ISK - PLEX - AUR tie-in is a rather devious (brilliant!) scheme that counters most blunt criticism of "power" MTs by construction.

We take meeting minutes EVERYDAY at my job and they are in line with this.

Keep in mind a lot of people just hate on us because it's cool and trendy and they're basically never able to be satisfied with anything we ever do. I learned this pretty quickly.

CCP responded that it had received reports regarding overheating and was taking active measures to follow up on those, although no concrete cases have been discovered.

A lot of preparation material was created for the summit: literature on purchase behavior, virtual goods practice and industry reports, independent studies on monetization of web/online games and services done explicitly for CCP, etc. Furthermore, information from other industry-leading companies was added to the pool.

As it does not take the future of EVE lightly, CCP stressed that EVE has been, and will continue to be, one of the company's core projects. CCP has been working on EVE for a very long time and would never, either as individuals or as a company, intentionally try to hurt EVE. Even changes to EVE that can be considered controversial are only taken after very careful consideration of the possible consequences and effects they might have on the game and its playerbase.

Reading these minutes, I feel like the initially released joint statement was far more detailed, on-point, relevant, expressive, informative, and, to be honest, entertaining to read The initial joint statement, while its overall tone was very matter-of-fact, demonstrated to me the extent that the CSM pushed on CCP; it also demonstrated a certain amount of chagrin and honest confusion on the part of CCP.

In other words, between all the low-key wordage of the initial statement, you found that an open and honest communication occurred, with some consensus and understanding reached.

These minutes are overworked, banal to say the least.

Yet at least, they are now released. They are not what I expected, but they are released. For that, I commend the CSM and CCP both.

Time to move on to the next soap opera!

GG

Nobody ever even mentioned FiS? Nobody even suggested part of the reason people didn't like Incarna, was that it showed CCP no longer cared about FiS?

Or was that part censored out?

Glad this is out of the way. On to the next--100% self-inflicted in the face of overwhelming evidence and reasons to not go there--crisis!

"The CSM GENERALLY agreed that from a purely technical standpoint, Incarna had GENERALLY been a very
successful expansion"

I think it was a massive disaster, followed by another massive disaster.

GENERALLY

Those minutes didn't really seem to say anything we didn't already know, and no new specifics seem to have been clarified further... Given the rather banal nature, I'm left even more confused as to why it took so long and caused so much back and forth between the CSM & CCP...

Nobody ever even mentioned FiS? Nobody even suggested part of the reason people didn't like Incarna, was that it showed CCP no longer cared about FiS?

Or was that part censored out?