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Van Cleef
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 01:03:00 -
[31]
Even if the 4th decided to bow to the Great Dictator Heth, it is a CONCORD regulation that Alliances cannot join any Empire Milita - you guys are aware of this correct?
The Fourth will continue to Serve the State in any matter it decides is in it's best interests. We care not for people who question our fortitude.
------------------------------------------------
CEO and Admiral of the Fleet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Serve the State
Join Channel CAINCOM |
Souvera Corvus
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
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Posted - 2008.06.16 01:39:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Van Cleef
Even if the 4th decided to bow to the Great Dictator Heth, it is a CONCORD regulation that Alliances cannot join any Empire Milita - you guys are aware of this correct?
The Fourth will continue to Serve the State in any matter it decides is in it's best interests. We care not for people who question our fortitude.
One would have thought that a commitment to serve ones people wouldn't be so easily commuted as by a CONCORD regulation. The Elders demonstrated quite convincingly what is possible when a desire to serve's one people over-rides all other considerations.
There are many pilots throughout the cluster who have willingly foregone arrangments that pre-date the current conflict.
The fact you exploit those arrangements does you little credit.
To some unhappy souls, there is no honour in war and the 4th district demonstrate this very clearly. You echo your master Heth in this.
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Phoenix Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:15:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Eventy One on 16/06/2008 02:36:37
Originally by: Van Cleef
Eventy One, I hope this isn't a sign of things to come with you trolling around the various comm links adding your two cents from the sidelines.
Comments to follow OCC:
You seem to be taking this OCC. I'll respond as such.
Originally by: Van Cleef
CAIN and The Fourth District has been working for the State most likely for longer than you have been a pod pilot. While we don't support this adbomination that is Heth's Dictorship over our State we are here on the Front Lines defending her with our blood, sweat, and tears.
Relax. I'm aware of the reputation of the Fouth District. I'm calling you out because IC your actions to do not reflect your long standing service to the state. I'm making a distinction here between your traditional patriotism and your recent patriotism. You need to take my comments in the spirit of role playing.
I think calling you a traitor for refusing to support Heth is a valid position to take IC, as long as my IC comments are consistent and build off of the premise that the CEO's who appointed Heth are thinking about what is right for the state. Of course Ill change my tune if coercion has been shown to have taken place (presumably in the novel). Until that point however, my IC view is completely valid, consistent, and arguably substantiated.
Here is a long standing Caldari patriot refusing to be loyal to the State's leader. Therefore I'm questioning your motives (possibly on the grounds you are professionally envious of Heth's success representing the state - why should one CEO be chosen over another?)
You need to stop taking it OOC.
Originally by: Van Cleef
Making forum posts does not make you a patriot, putting all you have on the line to defend what you believe in for the State does. If you really want your voice, or anyone to take any validity to what you say you need to back up your words with actions. I don't call others to the field to fight, I fight.
You know this forum is for role playing? There is no rule that you need to do anything in particular in game to be qualified to post here. Whether I fight in your corp, against your corp or join a militia, whatever, does not in any way qualify me or disqualify me from posting her IC.
Further, I have a number of accounts. You can't really accusing me of not backing up my words with actions, because you have no idea what my in game actions are with respect my character. Accusing me of being all words, is merely baseless and uninformed fluff as I've pointed out before. If you're expecting me to submit a resume of my in game actions to qualify to engage you in a role playing forum - you are quit mistaken.
Specifically speaking about Eventy One - she's CEO of Eve's first and largest Astrometrics corp (that has also taken contracts from the state), and she is a Caldari patriot. She's not going to resign her corp as CEO to join a militia any time soon to satisfy your character.
However, for the sake of argument is her answer.
"After writing the goverment about my predicament, and after giving full discloure of my situation to the state, have recieved a personalized letter from Tibus Heth thanking me for my patriotic service. He also granted me permission to remain CEO of my corp on the grounds that my involvment with MGLN is providing the Caldari much greater benefit because of our business contracts, connections and services, than if I deploy in some other organization such as a militia."
There you have it. She is a patriot without quitting her corp - right from Tibus Heth's pen.
Regardless, I think there is RPing mileage in critizing professed patriots who do not respect the rule of law - which is essentially the position you have adopted as a player. My points have all been geared towards your character, on behalf of my character. I expect you to respond in kind.
All comments that follow will be in character
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Van Cleef
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:36:00 -
[34]
((Since this will all be modded anyway))
It was IC, as this is a forum even IC. Not sure why you thought it was OOC.
------------------------------------------------
CEO and Admiral of the Fleet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Serve the State
Join Channel CAINCOM |
Galen Darksmith
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:52:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Galen Darksmith on 16/06/2008 02:52:39
((Everyone on board the mod train! ;)
Quote:
Further, I have a number of accounts. You can't really accusing me of not backing up my words with actions, because you have no idea what my in game actions are with respect my character. Accusing me of being all words, is merely baseless and uninformed fluff as I've pointed out before. If you're expecting me to submit a resume of my in game actions to qualify to engage you in a role playing forum - you are quit mistaken.
From an RP perspective, we can only judge your character by your character's actions. Our characters can't see that you have multiple accounts, RPwise. I'm not saying YOU, the player, isn't fighting in FW. I'm saying that Eventy One isn't backing up her words. At the least, despite whatever industrial support she might be offering the militia, she's not in a position to accuse 4th of lacking loyalty to the State when they're down in Black Rise fighting (as well as game mechanics will allow) when she...is not.
And that letter business is a slippery slope, and I'd suggest you re-think that. Once you start giving yourself the sanctions of NPCs, things start to get out of control. Even CAIN and 4th, which has aligned itself with the State for years, can only claim interpretations what is best for the State. The only time we could honestly say we had direct orders from the CEP is when we actually did, during Aurora events.
In any case...I don't think anyone except you is taking it OOCly here. Your position is a valid one, of course, and we think ours has merit too. There's no need to get flustered OOCly about things.
If you want to talk more OOC, I'd suggest heading to www.eve-chatsubo.com.))
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Phoenix Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:57:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Eventy One on 16/06/2008 02:57:28
Originally by: Galen Darksmith
If you want to talk more OOC, I'd suggest heading to www.eve-chatsubo.com.))
Thanks.
Checking it out on GalNet. No Gallente hang out there do they?
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2008.06.16 04:55:00 -
[37]
Mixed Metaphor stands behind Strix Armaments, and will render whatever assistance is neccessary. This was an act of cowards, and shall be treated as such.
-----
CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Dance Commander
Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting. |
Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.16 12:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor stands behind Strix Armaments, and will render whatever assistance is neccessary. This was an act of cowards, and shall be treated as such.
Yes how dare Fourth District not disband and join the militia, this surely puts them in with other cowards like Ushra Khan and CVA, right?
You're always a good source of laughs Andreus. I could use a few more jokes, why don't you tell the one where you think the Federation militias invading Black Rise, a colonized Caldari region, is somehow justified. Be sure to include extras, like how we had no right to take back our homeworld, that's always a good one.
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Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.16 13:52:00 -
[39]
I wish the best of luck to The 4th District in this conflict in removing the Gallente pigs from space that they neither own or deserve.
Not that you'll need it.
...
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Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 13:54:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor stands behind Strix Armaments, and will render whatever assistance is neccessary. This was an act of cowards, and shall be treated as such.
Mr. Ixiris, your xenophobia has always been far and above that of even Tibus Heth. Your hatred of everything Amarr is legendary, and only exceeded by your incapability to do anything about it.
I look forward to seeing your war declaration arrive. Your pod fragments will make a nice addition to my collection. Or are war declarations only for "cowards"?
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Vieve Tisserand
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.06.16 14:38:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Thorradin
Yes how dare Fourth District not disband and join the militia, this surely puts them in with other cowards like Ushra Khan and CVA, right?
You're always a good source of laughs Andreus. I could use a few more jokes, why don't you tell the one where you think the Federation militias invading Black Rise, a colonized Caldari region, is somehow justified.
It is justified until Caldari militias cease invading Essence and Placid. The last I consulted a historical atlas, neither of those regions were ever subject to Caldari settlement or government.
Should we throw up our hands and say, ah, non -- we are so foolish to work to eliminate the military installations and fleets within Black Rise that are being used to stage assaults within our home systems? Should we then wander off in search of a delicious sandwich while the raids into the Federation continue?
Perhaps you would say 'yes'.
Perhaps you would assume that I would demand the same of Caldari corporations who have chosen not to align with the militia.
You would be wrong if you did.
Unlike my husband, I do not insist that all that whom attack us agree with one another in full measure. Honestly speaking, I rather prefer that they did not!
Nor do I complain that some of them may allegedly seek an unfair advantage via manipulation of regulations: despite being accused of being a romantic, I have no such notions concerning war. We are far removed from the days when knights vied over grave matters upon a single jousting green.
Opponents will come for us where they come for us. We should not expect a line of text to stop them.
If we are not ready for them, then so much the fool us. We need learn better. We need be better, for the sakes of those whom depend upon us. Most of those do not have the luxury of surviving death.
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2008.06.16 14:59:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
Mr. Ixiris, your xenophobia has always been far and above that of even Tibus Heth. Your hatred of everything Amarr is legendary, and only exceeded by your incapability to do anything about it.
Idiot - perhaps you should check what I've been doing lately. I've been working in Caldari space to divest you of the space that, through your constant inability to break ties with the Amarr, you have shown you are clearly undeserving of. I have also been working in Amarr space to reassign the space that their illegal Empire is squatting in to its rightful Minmatar owners.
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CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Dance Commander
Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting. |
Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 15:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Karl Mattar
Mr. Ixiris, your xenophobia has always been far and above that of even Tibus Heth. Your hatred of everything Amarr is legendary, and only exceeded by your incapability to do anything about it.
Idiot - perhaps you should check what I've been doing lately. I've been working in Caldari space to divest you of the space that, through your constant inability to break ties with the Amarr, you have shown you are clearly undeserving of. I have also been working in Amarr space to reassign the space that their illegal Empire is squatting in to its rightful Minmatar owners.
My apologies. I hadn't noticed.
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2008.06.16 16:48:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
My apologies. I hadn't noticed.
Well... um. Thank you. No hard feelings, I guess.
... OK, I'll admit it. I'm taken aback. I didn't expect you to apologise. You kind of took me off guard there. Thank you.
-----
CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Dance Commander
Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting. |
Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Phoenix Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.16 16:53:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Karl Mattar
My apologies. I hadn't noticed.
Well... um. Thank you. No hard feelings, I guess.
... OK, I'll admit it. I'm taken aback. I didn't expect you to apologise. You kind of took me off guard there. Thank you.
Gentlemen, stop being so civil. Need I remind you we are at WAR ....
... with each other?
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Allaria Kriss
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.16 17:10:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Allaria Kriss on 16/06/2008 17:10:45
To Vieve. I would like to point out that, from what I have read, the Fourth District has no problem with you shooting State forces that are in Federation territory. Their problem is with you attacking State forces in State territory, and that is why they have declared your corporation hostile. Stay out of Caldari space, and they have no problem with you.
Originally by: Derrys
If you wish to avoid hostilities with us, your path is clear: Stay out. Enter sovereign Caldari space only if you are willing to accept the consequences. Participate in militia actions within your own borders, and odds are good that we will have little reason to pursue you there.
Sounds simple enough to me. Stay out of the State and most of the State paramilitaries will see no need to kill you.
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Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 17:31:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Eventy One
Gentlemen, stop being so civil. Need I remind you we are at WAR ....
... with each other?
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be civil.
We would all be better off if this were more of a "gentleman's war".
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Jonny Damordred
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.06.16 18:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
We would all be better off if this were more of a "gentleman's war".
There is no such thing. War is hell, always.
Cheers,
Jonny D.
-------------------------
CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy |
Derrys
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 19:10:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jonny Damordred
There is no such thing. War is hell, always.
How sad. I've had several wars I enjoyed thoroughly, both as a strategic exercise and as a struggle uphold my ideals, and we remained on polite terms with our opponents throughout. In many conflicts of good conscience, it's more than possible for the combatants to be more alike than they differ, and hold mutual respect for that reason.
As a matter of fact, STRIX was involved in one of the wars I have in mind. It's disheartening to see them no longer willing to embrace that attitude.
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Jonny Damordred
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.06.16 20:21:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Derrys
Originally by: Jonny Damordred
There is no such thing. War is hell, always.
How sad. I've had several wars I enjoyed thoroughly, both as a strategic exercise and as a struggle uphold my ideals, and we remained on polite terms with our opponents throughout. In many conflicts of good conscience, it's more than possible for the combatants to be more alike than they differ, and hold mutual respect for that reason.
As a matter of fact, STRIX was involved in one of the wars I have in mind. It's disheartening to see them no longer willing to embrace that attitude.
I bet the families of the crews on your dead ships agree.
Jonny D.
-------------------------
CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy |
Derrys
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.16 20:30:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jonny Damordred
I bet the families of the crews on your dead ships agree.
As I lost no ships in that war, your statement is not applicable. My corporation as a whole did lose a few, but the crews and their families knew what they were fighting for and why. Describing it as "hell" is surely not accurate, for they volunteered for the honor of upholding their beliefs, and their families had the pride that goes with that honor.
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.16 20:31:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jonny Damordred
Originally by: Derrys
Originally by: Jonny Damordred
There is no such thing. War is hell, always.
How sad. I've had several wars I enjoyed thoroughly, both as a strategic exercise and as a struggle uphold my ideals, and we remained on polite terms with our opponents throughout. In many conflicts of good conscience, it's more than possible for the combatants to be more alike than they differ, and hold mutual respect for that reason.
As a matter of fact, STRIX was involved in one of the wars I have in mind. It's disheartening to see them no longer willing to embrace that attitude.
I bet the families of the crews on your dead ships agree.
Indeed. If this is an example of the regard the Caldari Nationalists hold thier crews in I am somewhat shocked you even get crews anymore.
On another note before you start pointing fingers at STRIX for thier behaviour maybe you should look closer to home for others that feel the need to whine when they are war decced. Still we shall see what the week coming brings.
Heartstone
---
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Phoenix Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.16 22:49:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Heartstone
Indeed. If this is an example of the regard the Caldari Nationalists hold thier crews in I am somewhat shocked you even get crews anymore.
I have to agree with Derrys on this one - we Caldari appreciate that there are times one must put one's self-intrest aside in favour of a greater good, be that the interest of the state, or one's corporation.
Gallente citizens wouldn't know about that, as the Gallente Federation revolves around convincing the masses that individual self-interest is of supreme importance.
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Remy Valios
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.06.17 00:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Eventy One
Gallente citizens wouldn't know about that, as the Gallente Federation revolves around convincing the masses that individual self-interest is of supreme importance.
Though I would normally write this off as Caldari stereotyping of the Gallentean belief system, I believe it warrants two moments to correct.
We appreciate our personal freedoms, and among them the freedom to pursue our interests and desires, be they pleasure, profit, or pious faith. We appreciate the freedom to go where we want, do what we want, how we want, within a fair system that ensures that we do not unduly harm others in our own pursuits.
We also appreciate that from time to time, we must rise in defense of these freedoms, that they are not free, and that they are not given. That others would dash them down. That we must fight for them. It is why our activists protest so vehemently, and why we are so passionate in all our pursuits. These struggles are part and parcel with our duty in return for our freedoms.
As is our service. I myself am a peace activist. I took to the stars in hopes of opening a relief organization for the survivors of disasters and the war displaced. Now, the war has been forced upon the Federation- and I answer the call to battle, despite personal objections. It is the duty I can perform to protect my freedoms, and the freedoms of others- even those who protest against me for fighting, and protest the war.
We know well of personal sacrifice, we simply refuse to make it an expectation carried out through heartless corporate management.
_______________________________________________
What a terrible, necessary, dissapointing pursuit, peace is. |
Souvera Corvus
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
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Posted - 2008.06.17 00:39:00 -
[55]
As Caldari Mega-Corporations rely upon the materially exercised expression of economic self-interest, it does surpsise me that Caldari ultra-nationalists continue to brand the Gallentean version as somehow offensive.
After all, the Mega-Corporations are the state, more now than ever before. Caldari self-interest defines them, Gallentean self-interest adorns them.
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Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.06.17 07:49:00 -
[56]
May you all kill each other.
Comments are my own and not that of my corporation.
---
Usagi Tsukino // Revolutionary
Stimulus |
Iyachtu Achlysiel
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:38:00 -
[57]
Now, I can understand the frustration of Strix for the situation our war declaration put us in. Nonetheless, before slinging accusations of cowardice, they should consider the dilemma we faced. We are not allowed to declare war on Gallente militia - something we'd very much like to do, incidentally - and we're just as incapable of declaring war on every corporation that's part of it. Therefore, either we decide to simply watch as you raid sovereign State space, or we put you in something of a bind by declaring war. I'm not entirely happy with all the consequences of our choice, but nonetheless, that our choice was the right one is clear to me. This especially since we've left you a road to peace that you should be perfectly happy to walk.
Now, to speak of those who have left you no path that you could walk with your dignity intact, and yet another of their paroxysms of moralizing... What the anarchists should consider is that respect towards your enemy doesn't kill a single more crewman. We too could splutter invective, call our enemies filthy pigdogs, brainwashed slaves and whatever, but it wouldn't ease the grief of the families of dead even for a single moment. In fact, the only thing that treating your enemy with respect means is less hard feelings, less bitterness in the way of ending the war with negotiated solution - and as such, less dead crewmen and grieving families. War is hell, yes, but it doesn't mean we should embrace it. Rather, we should do what we can to mitigate that hellishness.
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:57:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Iyachtu Achlysiel
Nonetheless, before slinging accusations of cowardice, they should consider the dilemma we faced. We are not allowed to declare war on Gallente militia - something we'd very much like to do
*sigh* Yes something we can agree on there Mr. Achlysiel. The insistance of the empires that these Militias fall under the protection of Concord is another example of the innate corruption at the core of the DED.
Quote:
What the anarchists should consider is that respect towards your enemy doesn't kill a single more crewman.*snip*
Yes of course we know this the comments that provoked me at least was the talk of finding a war an enjoyable thing with seemingly no regard to the people under the command of the pilot in question. To find the slaughter of many thousands of crew members enjoyable is... disturbing to say the least.
Heartstone
---
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Galen Darksmith
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:48:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Galen Darksmith on 17/06/2008 18:48:04
Originally by: Heartstone
Originally by: Iyachtu Achlysiel
Nonetheless, before slinging accusations of cowardice, they should consider the dilemma we faced. We are not allowed to declare war on Gallente militia - something we'd very much like to do
*sigh* Yes something we can agree on there Mr. Achlysiel. The insistance of the empires that these Militias fall under the protection of Concord is another example of the innate corruption at the core of the DED.
Quote:
What the anarchists should consider is that respect towards your enemy doesn't kill a single more crewman.*snip*
Yes of course we know this the comments that provoked me at least was the talk of finding a war an enjoyable thing with seemingly no regard to the people under the command of the pilot in question. To find the slaughter of many thousands of crew members enjoyable is... disturbing to say the least.
Heartstone
Ya kill people fer wantin' a place ta call their own. Ya got no room ta talk.
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Gerrard DuNord
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Iyachtu Achlysiel
Now, I can understand the frustration of Strix for the situation our war declaration put us in. Nonetheless, before slinging accusations of cowardice, they should consider the dilemma we faced. We are not allowed to declare war on Gallente militia - something we'd very much like to do, incidentally - and we're just as incapable of declaring war on every corporation that's part of it. Therefore, either we decide to simply watch as you raid sovereign State space, or we put you in something of a bind by declaring war. I'm not entirely happy with all the consequences of our choice, but nonetheless, that our choice was the right one is clear to me. This especially since we've left you a road to peace that you should be perfectly happy to walk.
Now, to speak of those who have left you no path that you could walk with your dignity intact, and yet another of their paroxysms of moralizing... What the anarchists should consider is that respect towards your enemy doesn't kill a single more crewman. We too could splutter invective, call our enemies filthy pigdogs, brainwashed slaves and whatever, but it wouldn't ease the grief of the families of dead even for a single moment. In fact, the only thing that treating your enemy with respect means is less hard feelings, less bitterness in the way of ending the war with negotiated solution - and as such, less dead crewmen and grieving families. War is hell, yes, but it doesn't mean we should embrace it. Rather, we should do what we can to mitigate that hellishness.
Just when I thought I'd never hear anything sensible from the lips of a CAIN pilot, I'm proved incorrect by Captain Achlysiel. I'd like to pay tribute to him, my enemy, for actually attempting to see things from our side, even if I disagree with his conclusions. Whilst I still deplore his alliance's actions, I salute his integrity.
The reason I diagree with your conclusion that your choice was the right one is that I do not believe your superiors when they say they won't join the militia as they disagree with Heth. By declaring war on us you are supporting Heth just the same as if you joined the militia. I believe the true reason is that they are unwilling to lose the null sec benefits of being an alliance. The 4th have to the best of my knowledge ploughed considerable ISK and time into their alliance venture, and their unwillingness to scarifice this in order to serve in the militia is in my opinion their true reason for taking their current course of action.
You have my respect Captain Achlysiel. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for your corporation and alliance. Perhaps I'm just an idealist, but I believe that gentlemanly conduct in the theatre of war is what sets us apart from barbarians and animals. Sadly it seems we are not as civilised as a collective race as I had hoped we were.
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