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Mad inflation

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
gfldex 361	Posted - 2012.03.12 12:56:00 - [1] - Quote Garak Jakobs wrote: The option is there for anyone and everyone to go to an Incursion system and take part. And that's what happens. There are plenty of miners that are running incursions now because it's silly not to. You still spend hours in front if a simple game but the income is a lot better. It wont change until a hulk in highsec can outmine the average incursion runner. Thanks to the drone region (bots) high mins could drop in price to more or less even out the price increase in low mins so far. When (or if) drone poo gets changed to ISK that counter wont work either. The economy will do what it's meant to do. Even out the income gap between incursion runners and highsec miners and mission runners that pick up loot. Expect ship prices to triple relative to where they where before Incursion. The whining will be endless. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 362	Posted - 2012.03.12 16:48:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Soundwave wrote: Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally. That is true if you ignore that highsec Incursions provide an alternative to multi account highsec mining. One generates ISK the other doesn't (so much, there are still insurance payouts as indirect mineral buy orders). You further ignore that income inequity can amplify an inflation tendency. ISK in EVE works different then on Earth. On our (still quite) lovely planet money is created with dept. When dept and money meet both vanish. In EVE money creation is accumulative. Look into the wallets of folk that run Incursions on a regular basis and tell us what you see. And then assume that this number keeps ticking up because there is no ISK sink a pure Incursion runner has to fuel. There are many who ignore the CONCORD LP shop and as such have no ISK sink at all. If you prod you buy BPOs. If you take space you pay sov bills. (it's quite amusing to say that to an ex-goon :) Incursion runners don't have any bills to pay. Their wealth keeps accumulating. As a result inflation can go into 2nd gear and hurt all those who got a low income. There is good reason why trit and pyerite keeps going up. You must be a complete moron to keep mining in highsec when you can make the same ISK in a fraction of the time. I will have no problem to sell Drakes for 70M ISK a pop. I'm not sure if noobs will enjoy those prices tho. You need quite a few SP to be competitive in Incursions. So the income of noobs relative to prices will keep dropping. I'm a massive troll, so I will enjoy the whining of noobs who can't afford their BCs anymore. But then I'm not getting payed by some icelandic company. How about you? The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 363	Posted - 2012.03.12 17:17:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Soundwave wrote: Someone already posted the numbers, the majority of isk in EVE comes off bounties and if anything, we should be reviewing the current bounties on battleship NPCs. A german journalist took a look at how politics where using (very valid) statistics to support their ... well ... let's call it "political ideas". He then wrote a book with the title: "Lying with Numbers". The amount of ISK per faucet in total tells you beep all. You have to look at the numbers per capita (that means player, not account or char). And highsec Incursions are bending those numbers in an extreme fashion. The high income per char per hour provides an alternative to other ways to have an income (remember: minerals you mine yourself are free). That _will_ have an effect as more and more players join Incursions _even_ if they still end up with the same income in ISK per day. The biggest time killer in highsec is mining. And we already see the effect of the shift in income sources from highsec mining to highsec Incursions. Until Highsec Incursions are nerfed in some way (there are plenty) low min prices will keep going up until an equilibrium is reached between Incursion income per day of a single char player with income per day of a (moderate) multi char mining player. Love makes pretty blind, you know. We all know how much you love your baby that is Incursions. Please don't cuddle it until it dies. We (the arrogant knowledgeable palyerbase) told you that removing mineral buy orders but keeping insurance fraud was petty stupid. (OK, that was before your time). We told you that jet can flagging will be used exclusively to grief players. (Why can't I be a shark in a 1.0 system anyway?) We told you that the arti-change will make highsec suicide **** easy. (Look at all those tengus!) We told you that AA DDs will make Titans mandatory. We told you that the supcap HP boost will turn EVE into super captials online (and make dreads pointless). We told you a lot more I forgot. But then we are not the CSM and as such safe to ignore. I'm not bitter tho. I will just be here and wait. I will wait for the whining that is ENDLESS! The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 364	Posted - 2012.03.12 17:39:00 - [4] - Quote J3ssica Alba wrote: Not really, it balances itself out. It does not. J3ssica Alba wrote: The more people that do incursions, the less sites are available, more competitions. Heck, nowadays you can easily get 3 - 4 fleets on the gate to the same vg. That means 10 ppl get paid, 20 - 30 other people don't in the same amount of time. Exactly! The amount of ISK you can get with Incursions depends when you can run them. If your playtime allows you to run around downtime you will make much more ISK then when you are based close to GTM. It's the same problem then with reinfoced timers. You are based in the wrong TZ - you get the shaft. Good game design looks different. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 364	Posted - 2012.03.12 18:21:00 - [5] - Quote Zircon Dasher wrote: Assuming, that is, that there are not intangible benefits also created by incursion running. And there is one. Your sec status goes up quite nicely when you pop Sansha BS. So one could very well keep running Incursions even if the wallet is about to explode already. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 366	Posted - 2012.03.12 20:55:00 - [6] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: Should I quote CCP about Incursions again? Yes please. Because CCP was never wrong before. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 366	Posted - 2012.03.12 21:08:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Soundwave wrote: Someone already posted the numbers, the majority of isk in EVE comes off bounties and if anything, we should be reviewing the current bounties on battleship NPCs. I have another objection on this notion. That number includes money from bots because of reasons that where refused to expose by a well known ex-goon currently employed by CCP Games. If you want to talk about how big the effect of incursions relative to all ISK springs looks like, you have to make the numbers without the hopefully soon to be gone bot-ISK-printers. So, how big is the pie pice of incursions without the artificial bot-bloat? The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 366	Posted - 2012.03.12 21:36:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Soundwave wrote: You're aware that we're making adjustments to Incursions right? I've never said we didn't need to look at Incursion income in isolation, the point I made was that in terms of money coming into the economy, bounties are a massive issue. I'm not entirely sure why some of you keep insisting that it's either or. Do Incursions need looking at? Absolutely, that's already been done and is awaiting deployment. Are Incursions the big issue in terms of isk coming into the economy? Not even remotely. You got me wrong. My problem is not the payout of Incursions. My problem is where that payout is done. Highsec Incursions provide not only an alternative but even a counter to highsec multi account mining Quite some time ago, before first botting and then Incursions helped a great deal to pump ISK into the wallets of _some_ players, a 30 day GTC could be bought for 140M. A miner could run 5 accounts and easily to get the 700M to maintain the accounts. The rest of the month he could move ISK into his wallet that was then (quite often) spend on BPOs With the current PLEX prices you simply can't do that. Mining bots can but players can't As a result mineral prices will keep going up. There is no inflation in EVE. That's just bullshit I never proposed to be the case. But there is a shift of income that hurts anybody (and new players the most as they can't run incursions) who wants to buy ships because they are the biggest mineral sink. As a result you pretty much force players who lose ships quite often to run Incursions or do some botting. We both know where the moon goo ISK goes too. Or where it should have went in Delve. (har har har If you look into my corp wallet for sell orders (can you actually do that?) you will see why I personally have no interest in dropping mineral prices. I still believe that this is a big can of worms waiting to pop open. I care because I care about EVE If you keep providing alternatives (that don't even require NPC standings) for highsec mining mineral prices will keep raising. If you drop the drone loot change on top of that all hell will break lose. For all what is holy, don't do the drone change that was reported (was that a hoax?) to be on chaos until you sorted highsec Incursions Even if you change Incursions, as long as they stay in highsec for an extended period of time (more then a few hours), you still provide an alternative to mining that only very new players or a complete moron could reject The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 370	Posted - 2012.03.13 01:23:00 - [9] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: To put all the above into perspective, here is how many wall-clock hours I have to run a particular activity in order to pay for a PLEX for every account involved: Mining: 40 hours Missions: 20 hours Incursions: 3 hours Here is an ASCII bar graph contrasting the relative enjoyment of these activities: Mining: = Missions: == Incursions: ================================================ I love you! The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 370	Posted - 2012.03.13 02:10:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Soundwave wrote: You're aware that we're making adjustments to Incursions right? On second thought, no I actually don't know that. Might be because you are not beeping telling us. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson

gfldex 370	Posted - 2012.03.13 02:46:00 - [11] - Quote Gilbaron wrote: there was a feedback and suggestions thread some time ago No, no, no, you got that wrong. The feedback thread is for _us_ to tell _him_. What we did. Plenty. Then a few month passed by and now he is asking me if I know. What I don't. Because _he_ didn't tell _us_ what he thinks. And we all know how that will end. There will be a dev blog that requires approval Of His Holiness. That then needs translation (takes only a week). Then there will be The Truth Revealed. The CSM may nor may not be informed but what does that help the playerbase as they are Struck With Lightning By His Holiness when they break the oath ... err ... the NDA. Then there will be forum rubble. And then there will be Sisi rubble. And a few knowledgeable will speak up and go silent again, unheared. Then there will be TQ rubble. AND THEN THERE WILL BE FORUM RUBBLE AGAIN. Unless it's a massive ISK printing event. Then there will be ISK printing like mad (hello original lvl4 missions? hello slightly bugged 0.0 complexes?). AND THEN THERE WILL BE FORUM RUBBLE. It's all the time the same for the last 7 years. Well, there was a time when CCP listened (I know what you did back then in Stain, Oveur!) but then t20 happened. This is why we can't have nice things and all be friends. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 370	Posted - 2012.03.13 03:04:00 - [12] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Are the LP stores not being counted as a sink? They can if ppl cache in. There are plenty who spend money so fast that they don't got the ISK to hand it over in a CONCORD station for not so shinies. There is little reason to get anything from the CONCORD LP store anyway. It's most likely better to change them to some other LP and go for ammo (or some stuff I wont name in public kekeke). You need to find a buyer if you want to sell. And twice the base price for 1% more ompf ain't that hot. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 370	Posted - 2012.03.13 03:35:00 - [13] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: I'm not claiming it's a perfect system, but really, with the ability to exchange LP it seems all reasonable measures are being made to ensure there is some semi desirable way yo spend the LP. It did work out until the farming agreements where made and Incursions prolonged artificially. The result was an inflation of CONCORD LP from 6000ISK/LP at the beginning to 800ISK/LP with exchange to ammo. There are simply not enough buyers for named capital guns that are a whopping 10% better then T1. The excessive high LP reward at the beginning mostly came from market bots who (by design) have no idea how much new items are worth. The income one can get from Incursions are actually quite bad right now compared to the time when only a selected few could run them reasonably well. I never thought any game designer could beat the beep up of the original lvl4 missions. You should have seen the mineral market back then. :) The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 373	Posted - 2012.03.13 13:02:00 - [14] - Quote Grukni wrote: So, what's the biggest ingame isk faucet? bots The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
gfldex 375	Posted - 2012.03.14 13:21:00 - [15] - Quote Skex Relbore wrote: Don't you think it's kind of strange that prices remained flat for the entire rest of the year? People have been running incursions that entire friggin time but somehow we're supposed to think that some magical ******* tipping point was finally reached in December There is one. It's more of an area then a point, tho. I'm pretty sure you will come up with the right answer yourself. There is a complex interaction between PLEX, ISK, minerals/sleeper goo and the number of active accounts. There are sort-of-tipping points and I believe we have hit one. In 0.0 your available time to NPC scales with the distance to empire. Paragon is a nice place to chill out. :) With incursions you don't have that. On the notion that it's easier to change profession in EVE then on Earth I do not agree. Well, for us 100M+SP folk it is. For the waste majority of active accounts it's not. They have to skill for a few month to be competitive. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson

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