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Mill1ken	Posted - 2008.06.18 00:15:00 - [1] I was wanting to see what you guys think the Super Captial market looks like now a days. Would it be worth the while to try to break into this side of the market? I only see a few sellers who are able to produce super caps, but its really hostile subject now. Do you think a successful business could be cut into this market given the time and effort put into it? Discuss?
Emotek	Posted - 2008.06.18 01:06:00 - [2] I do believe that Nyxs are quite popular and at least Chribba and one more is looking for a Hel. I can run some computations and send some your way tomorrow as I have seen some price requests and offers recently (there is quite a large gap and I am not sure if that is due to a attempt to pay off fixed cost or differences in percieved variable cost).
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.06.18 08:41:00 - [3] find a big enough security force to back up your project and you could have a few titan bpo's in production. Mass profits as long as you can keep your space safe.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.06.18 10:12:00 - [4] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic find a big enough security force to back up your project and you could have a few titan bpo's in production. Mass profits as long as you can keep your space safe. Meh, the investment is huge and the market is getting more and more saturated. Motherships are hard to move at 15% above mineral costs and while titans sell for a lot now, what will they be selling for in 8 months? At that point you still won't have recovered the BPO costs so that's a serious concern. So to is the possibility of a nerf, with every additional titan BoB builds people whine a bit louder. As far as security goes, that's not all that hard to get, at least not since Sovereignty 4 but you will have insane overhead to get the materials out to the build site. Quite frankly, I only consider building a titan viable if you already have a titan to jumpbridge in all the supplies. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Taikun	Posted - 2008.06.18 11:10:00 - [5] My 'capital' speculation is that I prognosticate Tech II carriers and dreads within a year. Therefore... I have stockpiled a bunch of dirt cheap BPC's as a 'hope for the best' investment. Taikun P.S. Tech II Titans within 3 years. (And yes I have a copy of EvEs internal development plan. It is called a coin. One side is tails, the other is missing a head.) A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.06.18 11:47:00 - [6] You might want to jump into cap parts and normal caps really. I prognosticate that CCP will introduce a ship class who will be around to significantly help at popping more cap ships. OR I prognosticate that CCP will change insurance significantly and make losing cap ships even more damaging thusly more expensive to replace and more likely not to be replaced. Hmmm what a gamble :( ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.06.18 12:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Jason Edwards You might want to jump into cap parts and normal caps really. I prognosticate that CCP will introduce a ship class who will be around to significantly help at popping more cap ships. OR I prognosticate that CCP will change insurance significantly and make losing cap ships even more damaging thusly more expensive to replace and more likely not to be replaced. Hmmm what a gamble :( I'll second this notion. The profit now is in parts not the ships themselves. I've been moving quite a few parts, and I get a faster return than the ships netted me. Even on freighters. Most researched cap part blueprints have a net ROI of about 4 to 6 months now depending on the item in question. The trick being, find the parts that are used by a majority of ships and find a market to sell them in.
Jack Arbiter	Posted - 2008.06.19 08:59:00 - [8] T2 cap ships have got to be coming. Consider the racial cap components that are currently only used in Jump Freighter manufacture and you'll see why.
Knobbing Everyone	Posted - 2008.06.19 09:56:00 - [9] Could also be we're seeing more of them move on the market since Trinity introduced the HIC's to pin them down. More super-caps dying = more being needed = more being built, even if the margins are less. Losing a super-cap today barely makes CAOD, much less the news..
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.06.19 12:03:00 - [10] The returns are poor compared to trading when you consider the enormous upfront capital costs. You'll be doing well if you manage to make 5%/month this way on anything bigger than freighters. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri 20:1 low-end compression
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.06.19 15:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro The returns are poor compared to trading when you consider the enormous upfront capital costs. You'll be doing well if you manage to make 5%/month this way on anything bigger than freighters. Like I said.. the margin has moved to parts. Right now each of my part BPOs are running an approx 20 to 30% margin. If I took the time to try and actually setup an operation to build said ships. I would actually end up eating into my existing margin and loosing existing profit, when you factor in all logistical costs including time. My guess is that Alliances don't even bother with the logistical headache of the entire supply line and instead are just importing parts from empire, much how they import everything else from empire. It's the only explanation that makes sense to me on why volume is up and margin is up on parts.
Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.06.19 18:31:00 - [12] It's just so weird that 0.0 alliances would do that, because even if they hated the logistics the cap components take up twice the space that the minerals do. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Czanthria Ad Astra Vexillum Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.19 18:43:00 - [13] Edited by: Czanthria on 19/06/2008 18:43:05 Originally by: Pwett It's just so weird that 0.0 alliances would do that, because even if they hated the logistics the cap components take up twice the space that the minerals do. How many manufacturing slots are available in your neighborhood outpost? -- Knowledge is Power!
Mill1ken	Posted - 2008.06.20 00:38:00 - [14] I am currently thinking about getting into this side of the market. But buying the BPO's would be considered a Major Hit in my hip pocket. Would a IPO or Bond again be the way to go here? I cacultate its going to cost a ton to just get the compent bpos. I though to start w/ just carriers then work to dreads then down the line in a year or so get into MOM/Titans. Is it smart to expect the captial market to bloom even more w/ major wars being fought in both north and south? Or would Faction war have a major hit to this market? Given my track record thus far, would it be wise to just shut down my Reaction business and go straight to captial production? Any insite you could give would be greatfully accepted. Mill1ken
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.06.20 01:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Mill1ken I am currently thinking about getting into this side of the market. But buying the BPO's would be considered a Major Hit in my hip pocket. Would a IPO or Bond again be the way to go here? I cacultate its going to cost a ton to just get the compent bpos. I though to start w/ just carriers then work to dreads then down the line in a year or so get into MOM/Titans. Is it smart to expect the captial market to bloom even more w/ major wars being fought in both north and south? Or would Faction war have a major hit to this market? Given my track record thus far, would it be wise to just shut down my Reaction business and go straight to captial production? Any insite you could give would be greatfully accepted. Mill1ken I dont know your history but as stated in the thread... the real value/profit is in the parts. The research for the parts bpos are pretty damn easy compared to the capital bpos. Furthermore you want to get 4+ of the bpos. As the parts bpos are going to be able to produce tons of parts. At least compared to capital bpos. If you dont have like 30billion in your wallet now... don't bother getting directly into the capital business. Instead research the most popular pieces and get only those that you can afford and manage. Find a good market to sell them too. Profit! ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
Emotek	Posted - 2008.06.20 01:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Mill1ken I am currently thinking about getting into this side of the market. But buying the BPO's would be considered a Major Hit in my hip pocket. Would a IPO or Bond again be the way to go here? I cacultate its going to cost a ton to just get the compent bpos. I though to start w/ just carriers then work to dreads then down the line in a year or so get into MOM/Titans. Is it smart to expect the captial market to bloom even more w/ major wars being fought in both north and south? Or would Faction war have a major hit to this market? Given my track record thus far, would it be wise to just shut down my Reaction business and go straight to captial production? Any insite you could give would be greatfully accepted. Mill1ken I think that a bond would be the best option here. You have most of the necessary facilities to contstruct the parts and the ships (AFAIK) so all you would need is enough money to buy the blueprints, research, and begin building. The component prices on market for the capital ships are much higher than than the actual going rate for ships. I would suggest to initially start off with components and then begin offering ships. For ships, I would focus less on carriers, dreadnoughts, and freighters as those markets are more or less reliablly filled and more on supercarriers and titans as that market is, in my opinion, much less reliable and even nonexistent. It can be hard to find supercapitals (especially bare bone ships) right now and the method of forum trades does little to help the problem. If you wanted to make a service that would offer supercapitals for sale, then I would be willing to throw some money in to help buy the blueprints for you without any expectation of return. I think that the underdevelopment of the supercapital market is a major problem that needs to be corrected and one thing that I would love to see is at least one person permanently offering supercapitals for sale. If you are game, then let me know how much money you would need and I will hand what I can to you. As for your complex reactions, I do not know much about this. You are still making a profit on it? Is it becoming too burdensome for the money it returns? If you want to shut down or otherwise think that you need to, then that is fine with me. You have run a very good operation so far. I defer any decisions to your expertise.
Mill1ken	Posted - 2008.06.20 03:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Emotek Originally by: Mill1ken As for your complex reactions, I do not know much about this. You are still making a profit on it? Is it becoming too burdensome for the money it returns? If you want to shut down or otherwise think that you need to, then that is fine with me. You have run a very good operation so far. I defer any decisions to your expertise. Profits are Not bad, thats not the promble. Thus Far I am at 23 poses, thats a ton of poses to run. And my time is somewhat limited w/ the dealing w/ my son. I am thinking of getting into this business but theres a lot to take out. I would not mind a silent partner to do it, but it will take some effort on two ends of the fence. I do think the biggest promble is getting into it. I do believe that a smaller start will equal a bigger business for all. I will talk w/ you in game see what we can work out. Mill1ken
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.06.20 09:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Czanthria Originally by: Pwett It's just so weird that 0.0 alliances would do that, because even if they hated the logistics the cap components take up twice the space that the minerals do. How many manufacturing slots are available in your neighborhood outpost? I suppose unless you've got a Sov 4 system and can safely deploy component arrays (each potentially containing multiple freighter-loads of minerals when operating at capacity), an outpost is the only option. The 10% waste from the arrays would be more than offset by the saving from building the components in-house if people in empire really are making 20-30% margins from them, not to mention the reduced amount of hauling required. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri 20:1 low-end compression
KIAEddZ KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.20 09:27:00 - [19] Building Titans now is very viable. The build costs on Titans is circa 40 Billion 63 Billion for BPO Sale price for Titans is and will remain for some time yet about 70 Billion. Last 2 I know of sold at 79 and 78 billion. And there is no shortage of buyers. 47 Days for a Titan build. If you have someone with a Titan already, and they have safe space you can build behind, building Titans over the next 12 months will be large profits, anyone saying any different simply is ignorant. Now Moms is a different matter. Build costs is at about 13 billion, sales are mostly between 15 and 18. Right now the market is in a good place for the seller, with lack of MoMs in the market place, they are fetching top prices, but only a few months ago I bought 2 for 27 billion total, personally I still think they are worth teh build. With an existing Titan its very simple to Freighter in whats needed. The Supercap market is there for nayone to take and dominate, even the resale market has opportunities, but 5% a month is total bs, it is far more than that. KIA EVE Home KIA in game Public Channel "KIA" KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.06.20 10:57:00 - [20] Originally by: KIAEddZ Building Titans now is very viable. The build costs on Titans is circa 40 Billion 63 Billion for BPO Sale price for Titans is and will remain for some time yet about 70 Billion. Last 2 I know of sold at 79 and 78 billion. And there is no shortage of buyers. 47 Days for a Titan build. If you have someone with a Titan already, and they have safe space you can build behind, building Titans over the next 12 months will be large profits, anyone saying any different simply is ignorant. Now Moms is a different matter. Build costs is at about 13 billion, sales are mostly between 15 and 18. Right now the market is in a good place for the seller, with lack of MoMs in the market place, they are fetching top prices, but only a few months ago I bought 2 for 27 billion total, personally I still think they are worth teh build. With an existing Titan its very simple to Freighter in whats needed. The Supercap market is there for nayone to take and dominate, even the resale market has opportunities, but 5% a month is total bs, it is far more than that. I love how you compare the mineral costs directly with the final costs of the ship as though there's no intermediate steps to worry about. You forgot to mention the part where you need to build the components. The time and BPO's that go into that cut pretty deeply into your profits. So too does paying an alliance for safe enough space to build supercapitals and lets not even get into the costs of transporting it. If you have a friendly titan and a lot of freighter alts fine but most people will be stuck using jump freighters which are both expensive and time consuming. There's also the slight problem of buying BPO's intended for production in a declining market. There's no way that Titan BPO will be anything near what you originally paid by the time you want to liquidate the venture, especially not if Titan's get nerfed. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.06.20 12:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Kwint Sommer You forgot to mention the part where you need to build the components. The time and BPO's that go into that cut pretty deeply into your profits. So too does paying an alliance for safe enough space to build supercapitals and lets not even get into the costs of transporting it. If you have a friendly titan and a lot of freighter alts fine but most people will be stuck using jump freighters which are both expensive and time consuming. There's also the slight problem of buying BPO's intended for production in a declining market. There's no way that Titan BPO will be anything near what you originally paid by the time you want to liquidate the venture, especially not if Titan's get nerfed. Exactly... even despite the margin moving to parts. There are still quite a few that are only operating around 3 to 9%. Hardly big wins and huge ROI when you factor in BPO costs and logistic times with mineral supply, etc... There are... and I'll prolly kill my market by doing this. About 4 key capital parts that are in big demand, and fetch decent margin no matter what the location. The trick is getting the right sale price and location to ensure movement. If you can drop your parts into a low sec, or even better a null sec, system into a border region you'll find your parts moving VERY quickly. Like I said... my feeling is the alliances are abandoning the "from start to finish" model of capitals and more approaching it like a contractor would building a house. "I'll worry about someone else getting my framing, electrical, and plumbing done and I'll just worry about the finish work" A dramatic shift and a good one IMHO.
Sophie Daigneau Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.20 12:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Kwint Sommer I love how you compare the mineral costs directly with the final costs of the ship as though there's no intermediate steps to worry about. You forgot to mention the part where you need to build the components. The time and BPO's that go into that cut pretty deeply into your profits. So too does paying an alliance for safe enough space to build supercapitals and lets not even get into the costs of transporting it. If you have a friendly titan and a lot of freighter alts fine but most people will be stuck using jump freighters which are both expensive and time consuming. There's also the slight problem of buying BPO's intended for production in a declining market. There's no way that Titan BPO will be anything near what you originally paid by the time you want to liquidate the venture, especially not if Titan's get nerfed. So how long have you been building supercaps?
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.06.20 19:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Like I said.. the margin has moved to parts. Right now each of my part BPOs are running an approx 20 to 30% margin. I highly doubt its this good in actuality. I've been somewhat in this market for over a year and never have seen it this high when using real prices for minerals and such. But another reason I doubt it is because if this is true (which I'm going to check), I personally will pump out a massive supply of these items... and others will too probably having seen your post. So I tend to doubt the margins are so good because if they truly were that good you wouldn't be telling the world about it. Unless you don't realize people read these forums and use them for planning their next investment/production.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.06.21 13:55:00 - [24] @ eve-central's mineral index you can build a moros for about 1.2bil which then sell for 1.6bil Which is about 30% markup. Nyx builds for 12billion + pos fuel and defence; which I suspect isnt that crazy for fuel... definitely not another bil. Opening bids are 15bil Which is 25% markup. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.06.22 16:42:00 - [25] Edited by: Kazzac Elentria on 22/06/2008 16:43:18 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Like I said.. the margin has moved to parts. Right now each of my part BPOs are running an approx 20 to 30% margin. I highly doubt its this good in actuality. I've been somewhat in this market for over a year and never have seen it this high when using real prices for minerals and such. But another reason I doubt it is because if this is true (which I'm going to check), I personally will pump out a massive supply of these items... and others will too probably having seen your post. So I tend to doubt the margins are so good because if they truly were that good you wouldn't be telling the world about it. Unless you don't realize people read these forums and use them for planning their next investment/production. It's all about location and limiting your own supply. I don't sell in empire space for any of this stuff. And given my time constraints I'm actually moving into something else at the moment. ...so wreck away if you feel. But the margins ARE there.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.22 21:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria It's all about location and limiting your own supply. I don't sell in empire space for any of this stuff. And given my time constraints I'm actually moving into something else at the moment. ...so wreck away if you feel. But the margins ARE there. Is this like the I make ravens in 0.0 and sell them for 250 million so there for the market for ravens has plenty of profit? Remember to value the risk when dealing with higher than normal risk. If you are operating in Empire the risk is the same for everyone so there for the risk can be valued at 0. Where as you are operating in less secure locations and the risks are higher and so too are the rewards. Local and Covert cloaking Idea
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.06.22 22:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Originally by: Kazzac Elentria It's all about location and limiting your own supply. I don't sell in empire space for any of this stuff. And given my time constraints I'm actually moving into something else at the moment. ...so wreck away if you feel. But the margins ARE there. Is this like the I make ravens in 0.0 and sell them for 250 million so there for the market for ravens has plenty of profit? Remember to value the risk when dealing with higher than normal risk. If you are operating in Empire the risk is the same for everyone so there for the risk can be valued at 0. Where as you are operating in less secure locations and the risks are higher and so too are the rewards. No because even in looking at other regions (just to make sure I really wasn't taking out my ass) in the various items, all them are above 25%, the highest at 34% margin. This even being in Empire systems. The movements are a little slower on some more than others but the margins are still there.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria No because even in looking at other regions (just to make sure I really wasn't taking out my ass) in the various items, all them are above 25%, the highest at 34% margin. This even being in Empire systems. The movements are a little slower on some more than others but the margins are still there. Don't be upset, I just spent 5 billion last week buying bpo's and will be up and running within a few months and don't like how people are pushing others to get in on it. But with all the talk of caps and people getting into BPO parts I will bet there will be a change in that nice marge I spotted last week. Well at least I can sell my researched BPO at marked up prices. Local and Covert cloaking Idea
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:49:00 - [29] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Well at least I can sell my researched BPO at marked up prices. Good luck with that, a year ago there was great money in that... now... good luck.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Well at least I can sell my researched BPO at marked up prices. Good luck with that, a year ago there was great money in that... now... good luck. I feel special, its not every day I have Shad rain on my parade. I'm just hoping not too many people think its so great to be in the capital business and it isn't reduced to 5% margins and 100% focus. Local and Covert cloaking Idea

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