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Cathojen
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 19:48:00 -
[1]
This is a general guide and discussion talking about nano gangs. There's a lot of new players and players new to pvp at the moment joining factional warfare. A lot of them are fighting against players flying fleets of nano ships for the first time, and there's been a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of dead fleets, a lot of flaming, some drama etc.
I've even seen quite a few asking baffled in Caldari Militia chat about what nano's are not knowing what they are or what the fuss is about them.
So this is some info on what nano ships are, how nano fleets work and fight, and what weapons work against them. Any discussion on tactics or similar advice is welcome, we already have thread(s) for flaming about the merits of nano's or whether they are overpowered, so keep it to those threads.
Basic info
WHAT IS A NANO SHIP?
A nano ship is a ship that has been fitted with speed increasing modules and rigs in order to make them very fast. This is effective because it allows the nano ship to go fast enough that they can out-run the explosions of missiles, and turrets will miss them, and so in this way they can avoid taking damage. You'll sometimes hear this effect being referred to as "speed tanking."
Other advantages to flying nanoed ships: Due to being quick and light they move around systems quickly, making them good for chasing after people, and picking off stragglers. They are also survivable because they have the speed to disengage and run away if they suddenly find themselves outnumbered by arriving hostiles.
WHAT SHIP TYPES/HULLS ARE USED FOR NANO SHIPS?
Generally speaking, cruiser sized hulls. Recons, Heavy Assault Cruisers (HACs), and possibly t1 cruisers (if you're poor :P). It's possibly to do it with battlecruiser and battleship hulls, but to make them go desirably fast enough you generally have to spend lots of money on implants and faction/officer modules.
Also, the term nano-ship isn't really used for interceptors or other frigate sized ships. It's just taken for granted that these size ships are fitted to go fast. Cruiser sized or above is the bracket.
WHAT IS FITTED ON A NANO SHIP TO MAKE IT A NANO SHIP?
Back in the old days, the sole speed boosting module was the Nanofiber. Hence why ships fitted to go fast are still referred to as "Nano ships." Nowadays there are a variety of modules and rigs that affect speed and agility.
Modules
Nanofibers - These reduce mass, ie. make the ship lighter. This makes it turn quicker, accelerate quicker, and provides a moderate boost to speed.
Overdrives - These provide a raw increase of the ships top speed.
Inertia Stabilizers - They simply make the ship turn quicker. They don't increase speed, but some people like to fit one on nano ships.
Rigs
Polycarbon Engine Housing - Give an extremely large mass reduction. The best and most expensive way to make a ship go and turn fast.
Auxiliary Thrusters - Like Overdrives, they give a flat velocity increase.
These are used in conjunction with a microwarp drive, to make nano ships.
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Cathojen
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 19:48:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cathojen on 20/06/2008 19:55:41
Fleets
Nano ships have been utilized in the game for quite a while. Quite often when people get some nano ships together, they will just go roaming and gank whoever they find, and use the speed to escape if they get into trouble. However there are also groups that have developed tactics for using nano ships in organized gangs for fighting other gangs in outright battles. Some of the Caldari Militia have recently had trouble with corps using these types of gang tactics against them. I'll describe the most common way these gangs work.
HOW NANO FLEETS FIGHT
The most common way nano fleets fly is with ships fitting into set roles. Short range HACs that are fast, like Vagabonds and Sacrilege's with tackling gear is one type. Rapiers/Huginn's for webbing is another, and other recons sometimes like Arazu's and Falcon's are used as well.
The other group is HAC's that can snipe up to about ideally at least 100km like the Muninn and Zealot. Cerbs, and Ishtar's with Sentry drones, are pretty common too. These snipers are the main damage dealers of the fleet.
Some people include a Scimitar or other type of remote-repairing Logistics ship in the gang in case one of the nano's does start taking damage. Also common are Claymore's with mindlinks for gang bonuses to make everyone go faster.
The way it works is this:
- The nano fleet will try and find an area where a large amount of people are concentrated.
- They will try and provoke a reaction. In 0.0 space this usually includes dropping interdictor bubbles on the station and trying to pick off people trying to enter the system. In low-sec, camping the main gates to empire etc.
- When the enemy form up a fleet, they are expecting and counting on it being slightly haphazard with a lot of people just bringing whatever ship they like.
The way they fight is this
1) The nano fleet warps in at range, at least probably 100km off
2) They start dispersing. The faster, short-range fitted nano ships move towards the enemy fleet, which is probably hugging the gate or station. These short range nano's do NOT mwd straight towards and into the enemy fleet, they instead fly past and in front of it, angling to keep them away perhaps 35-40km off it. All they are trying to do is get people to chase them, they drag people away from the blob sitting on the gate and strand them to get picked off.
3) The first primary for the snipers is interceptors and anything fast or dangerous to the nano's (like Rapiers). Normally when an inexperienced fleet encounters a nano fleet, all the interceptors and tacklers immediately zoom straight for the nanos to get webs and tackles. They get webbed by the huginns and pretty much insta popped by the snipers.
4) After a while of popping tacklers and anyone they've managed to bait away from the main blob, the nano fleet will run out of targets who are in open space. At this point the nano fleet probably aren't up-close tackling or engaging. Vagabonds are still hovering around at distance.
So now the snipers will start primarying the most fragile ships who are hugging the gate. Even if the primary isn't tackled it's possible to insta-pop the ship with 1 or 2 volleys if enough snipers shoot, or destroy it if the pilot panics and doesn't warp off / jump through the gate quickly enough. A frigate sitting on the gate, not moving is getting insta-popped. Same for destroyers. Cruisers like Blackbird's, Celestis, Falcons, or anything that is either e-war and/or not typically fitted with a plate or shield extender are usual primaries.
5) Even if the ships are warping off as they are targeted, the nanos can thin out the enemy fleet. At some point the enemy fleet might become few left, or call a messy retreat with some people still stuck behind with aggression timers etc, and the Vagabonds & tacklers can move in close, get tackers on stragglers and targets of opportunity.
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Cathojen
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 19:49:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Cathojen on 20/06/2008 19:50:46
WHAT CAN I CAN DO WHEN IN A GANG WHEN FIGHTING VS NANOS?
- If you are shooting at hovering nanos and hitting absolutely nothing, consider stopping shooting. FC should be thinking about this too. De-aggress and be poised to jump / warp out if primaried, until there's something really worth shooting at.
- If you do manage to get a solid web on someone call it out on comms. There's your primary right there. If you do get a web, make every effort to keep it on them. Bear in mind that they will probably be trying to mwd away from you. Personally when I get a web on someone I always spam Approach on them. Then I quickly try and right click -> Orbit 500m all with my MWD perma-running so that my ship makes every effort to stay as close them as possible and thus stay within web range.
- If you're in a fleet which is moving around, and there's a nano gang (or really, any gang) dont get left behind or separated. If your gang is aligning, be aligned. Basic pvp.
- If you're engaged vs nano's (or again, anyone really), get ready immediately to warp out when a load of the enemy ships on your overview start flashing yellow (means they are targeting you). Second you start taking heavy damage (or before if you aren't well tanked), get out.
- Always have something ready to warp out to in a fight. Basic pvp tip. Just have some sort of celestial object, like a planet or belt, clear in view on your screen, that you can select and click warp to quickly. Ideally you are aligned to it, but vs nanos sometimes, you have to hug the gate in jump range if that's what the FC calls.
- Don't sit still if you are in something small. Do....something. Even if you're in something which normally sits static like a harpy or stealth bomber, orbit the gate or anything. Or be aligned and moving, but not zooming off away from your fleet. Muninn blinking yellow? Get out.You probably aren't in an ideal ship type anyway. Small non-fast ships die to HAC snipers like flies.
SO WHAT WORKS VS NANO FLEETS
1) Not fighting them. Seriously. Sometimes you can't achieve anything. There is a balance to be struck though. Sometimes you charge in like mad men with your terribly fitted ships and surprise or a mistake allows you to kill a 200m isk ship. But, on the other hand, if you've engaged them once or twice already and get owned, and you try a third time or forth time, natural selection may well be at work here. And if you are chasing around after shadows, it's boring and frustrating and there's usually something better to do or better to fight. Judgement call. Giving them kills and wins just keep them coming back though.
Also nano fleets tend to be pretty easy to ignore if you want, they can't engage you at 0 or jump right on top of you. Really, they are depending on you trying to engage them. All they can do is try and catch stragglers.
2) Medium turrets in general will hit nanos a fair a bit. If you can use t2 turrets, dont use the t2 ammo. Use faction ranged t1 ammo. You do probably need decentish skills for results with gunnery. Gunnery typically needs more SP investment to start doing decent damage than missiles do. It's worth training gunnery anyway though. It allows you fly other races ships easier. And most people agree turrets are better than missiles for most pvp.
3) E-war. No gunnery skills? Bring a blackbird or celestis. If there's only 15 in a nano gang, and you've got 15 cheap e-war cruisers they probably aren't going to be killing jack. Most e-war ships can lock down 2 other ships. Make sure you have a decent fitting, and try to be able to hit 100km+. E-war is a great way in general for low-sp characters to have a big impact.
4) Precision light missiles. The only type of missile that actually hits nanos reliably. If you've got something decent to mount them on you can fit rigs like Warhead Flare Catalyst's too. Some nanos none the less go so fast even these won't hit. Missiles just aint that great vs nanos.
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Cathojen
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 19:50:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Cathojen on 20/06/2008 19:51:03
5) Lots of fast tacklers. Yes, you are all going to get popped. It's a fact. But the way these nano gangs fight, they want to make tacklers scarce and scared. But to kill them, you need to swarm them with tacklers. Lose a few cheap ceptors and frigates, but kill a polycarbed HAC or two? It's a well worthwhile trade. They will be crying much harder.
Want a know a way you can be incredibly useful vs nanos, in general, for little SP, and virtually no isk? Train minmatar frigate IV and fly this Prince of Frigates:
Vigil
1x 250mm Light Artillery Cannon (for lollsy getting on km's)
1x MWD (t1, named, t2 - as you can afford)
1x Warp disruptor II
1x X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator (or t2 web if you can use/afford it)
2x Overdrive (t2 if you can)
1x Nanofiber (ditto)
With just Navigation IV, Acceleration III, and Minmatar Frigate IV this does nearly 4.2km/s with vanilla t1 fittings  What a ship!!!. Seriously it's basically an Interceptor thats not an Interceptor. Actually bother to spend a bare few million on basic t2 mods and train your nav skills a bit better, and this ship will do like 5.4km/s for the cost of maybe 4-5m max when you lose it. Incredible bargain and very easy to use and replace. Alright it doesn't do any useful dps - neither do interceptors to be blunt. Everyone can use this ship. 5-10 of these in a fleet as tacklers all heading straight for closest nano and locking him down and we'd be guaranteed some dead HACs every engagement.
But seriously, more tacklers.
Never head straight towards a blob of nano hacs. You are easy to hit and pop by snipers. If you need to charge the snipers for a warp-in or tackle, manually direct your ship by clicking in space, and make a zig-zag motion towards them. This will increase your transversal and make you harder to hit.
And finally, if you are flying interceptors FIT WEBS. You are flying a marginally useful ship if you fly a ceptor without a web. Targets can mwd out of range of your damage ships, or burn back to gate if they aren't webbed. Ceptors are mostly 5m hulls. Do not pimp them. Keep them cheap, cheerful, effective and disposable. No rigs except the odd Aux Thruster if you're completely loaded, and plain t2 gear.
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There's stuff you could say about nano's missing here like heavy neuts and baiting/killing them solo and in small gangs, or organized fleets with rapiers etc. But that's some basics.
It would help a lot imo if all the factions had there own sub-forums so they could discuss developments, give advice and fittings, and create a community spirit.
As usual though CCP seems slow off the mark to make obvious improvements even when they release a good expansion. Do we really need to be kept shouting and screaming for something as simple as a FW forum? Makes me think the chance of faction sub-forums soon is small. They waste potential sometimes.
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Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.20 19:51:00 -
[5]
Good post, please post some counters too and strategies towards nanos + post common misconceptions about nano ship so that we don't feed them with lies.
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Euriti - I'll continue my nerd forum rage! |
Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 19:55:00 -
[6]
Good thread, A+. It will be hard for caldari to properly counter nano gangs until the bugged and hilariously awful heavy precision missiles are fixed, but educating new players on what nanos are, how they work, how to combat them, is a very worthy endeavor.
It sure beats all the gallente spies in the militia channel telling us to fit WCS to combat sniper fleets.
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Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:06:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
3) E-war. No gunnery skills? Bring a blackbird or celestis. If there's only 15 in a nano gang, and you've got 15 cheap e-war cruisers they probably aren't going to be killing jack. Most e-war ships can lock down 2 other ships. Make sure you have a decent fitting, and try to be able to hit 100km+. E-war is a great way in general for low-sp characters to have a big impact.
An excellent point I'd like to see more in the caldari militia pick up on. If you bring just one blackbird they'll pop it. If you bring about 10, they can be jammed from afar.
Also, eschew multispectrals and bring the right racials. You know there are going to be tons of minmatar nanos, so bring some of those. Amarr nanos are also pretty popular.
You can safely skip caldari racials, as caldari don't nano all that well, and you can probably skip gallente racials as well, given that the ishtar can be combatted by blowing it's drones up instead.
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Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
3) E-war. No gunnery skills? Bring a blackbird or celestis. If there's only 15 in a nano gang, and you've got 15 cheap e-war cruisers they probably aren't going to be killing jack. Most e-war ships can lock down 2 other ships. Make sure you have a decent fitting, and try to be able to hit 100km+. E-war is a great way in general for low-sp characters to have a big impact.
An excellent point I'd like to see more in the caldari militia pick up on. If you bring just one blackbird they'll pop it. If you bring about 10, they can be jammed from afar.
Also, eschew multispectrals and bring the right racials. You know there are going to be tons of minmatar nanos, so bring some of those. Amarr nanos are also pretty popular.
You can safely skip caldari racials, as caldari don't nano all that well, and you can probably skip gallente racials as well, given that the ishtar can be combatted by blowing it's drones up instead.
2 amarr
2 minmatar
1 multispec
1 sensor booster
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Euriti - I'll continue my nerd forum rage! |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:11:00 -
[9]
I agree with the gentlemen above. Good post, Cathojen. 
---
Its dead, Jim.
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Hczer
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:13:00 -
[10]
Good post , now lets hope many people read it
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Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:36:00 -
[11]
In fact, this should be the MOTD in the caldari militia channel!
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Roguehalo
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:57:00 -
[12]
Sticky please
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Goremageddon Box
Soldiers Of Mercy
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Posted - 2008.06.20 21:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Roguehalo
Sticky please
Nice thread. not stick worthy but defntly bumpable.
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Malak Synn
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.06.20 21:10:00 -
[14]
Excellent piece, Cathojen.
... Someone, Please STICKY this somewhere.
Quote:
... Are You Watching Closely?
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FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.20 21:26:00 -
[15]
Where are Moa and Ferox sniping anti-nano setups? 
It's not that skill-intensive actually as T2 guns are not needed, Gunnery 5 -> trajectory analysis for tracking comps are probably the longest skills many caldari players don't have
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Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.06.20 21:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Where are Moa and Ferox sniping anti-nano setups?
True - its not really difficult to get MOAs firing up to 100km with only t1 gear. 2 Sensorbooster and a couple of RCUs and the guns fit. Not much damage, but low price and pretty nasty for anything small and untanked within 50-100km.
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Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.06.20 22:12:00 -
[17]
you forgot the part abut heavy neuts to keep them out of warp scram range
"Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time" |
Terra Marr
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Posted - 2008.06.20 22:31:00 -
[18]
Thanks, useful thread indeed.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.06.20 22:33:00 -
[19]
nice work
SKUNK
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Dakaahr
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Posted - 2008.06.20 22:40:00 -
[20]
I'd suggest remote sensor dampeners with targeting range scripts and/or tracking disruptors with optimal range disruption as a viable strategy against Nanos that rely on speed AND range.
To reduce damage from close range Gun-Nanos tracking disruptors with tracking speed disruption should work well to.
Dakaar
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Viqtoria
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.06.20 22:47:00 -
[21]
nice post
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Uzume Ame
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.20 23:03:00 -
[22]
free bump
CCP for when FW forums for each faction? slowness
Teh failure of a signature. |
Siigari Kitawa
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.06.20 23:04:00 -
[23]
[Dominix, Anti-Nano]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I <- Tech 1
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I <- Tech 1
Damage Control II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Drone Navigation Computer I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Small 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Drone Scope Chip I
Drone Scope Chip I
Curator II x5
Curator II x2
Garde II x5
Warrior II x15
Right. 120km drone control range. Let's analyze how to combat nanoships with this setup.
First, the Nanoship is going to be anywhere from 20km (27km if they have any sense) to 50km and trying to attack you. Use your Warriors to push them away, then as they are shooting them down one at a time release your Wardens and start sniping. You can HIT as far out as 100km efficiently. They won't know what's going on, so they will either flee or try to get in close. If they get in close you can do a few things. 1) Switch to your Gardes or 2) Neut them. When nanoships take damage they generally try to find a way to stop taking damage, because they have no tank. If you're sitting still and hurting them that causes them huge problems. So mix and match your drones as your opponent comes to and from you.
Does 495 DPS, and yeah, they won't last long. :)
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Dakaahr
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Posted - 2008.06.20 23:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tenuo
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
3) E-war. No gunnery skills? Bring a blackbird or celestis. If there's only 15 in a nano gang, and you've got 15 cheap e-war cruisers they probably aren't going to be killing jack. Most e-war ships can lock down 2 other ships. Make sure you have a decent fitting, and try to be able to hit 100km+. E-war is a great way in general for low-sp characters to have a big impact.
An excellent point I'd like to see more in the caldari militia pick up on. If you bring just one blackbird they'll pop it. If you bring about 10, they can be jammed from afar.
Also, eschew multispectrals and bring the right racials. You know there are going to be tons of minmatar nanos, so bring some of those. Amarr nanos are also pretty popular.
You can safely skip caldari racials, as caldari don't nano all that well, and you can probably skip gallente racials as well, given that the ishtar can be combatted by blowing it's drones up instead.
2 amarr
2 minmatar
1 multispec
1 sensor booster
Although jamming may be effective against HACs its not that effective against Force / Combat Recons, they have very good sensor strength. Better use tracks/damps.
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Gamesguy
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.20 23:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tenuo
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
3) E-war. No gunnery skills? Bring a blackbird or celestis. If there's only 15 in a nano gang, and you've got 15 cheap e-war cruisers they probably aren't going to be killing jack. Most e-war ships can lock down 2 other ships. Make sure you have a decent fitting, and try to be able to hit 100km+. E-war is a great way in general for low-sp characters to have a big impact.
An excellent point I'd like to see more in the caldari militia pick up on. If you bring just one blackbird they'll pop it. If you bring about 10, they can be jammed from afar.
Also, eschew multispectrals and bring the right racials. You know there are going to be tons of minmatar nanos, so bring some of those. Amarr nanos are also pretty popular.
You can safely skip caldari racials, as caldari don't nano all that well, and you can probably skip gallente racials as well, given that the ishtar can be combatted by blowing it's drones up instead.
2 amarr
2 minmatar
1 multispec
1 sensor booster
Lol you certainly cannot skip caldari racials. One of the main aims of any EW ship to lock down opposing EW ships. Falcons should always try to jam opposing falcons, and any half decent nano gang will have multiple falcons.
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Arvald
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.21 00:01:00 -
[26]
*golfclap*
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw
Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you are paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face) |
Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.22 05:07:00 -
[27]
Bump to counter nano whines on first page.
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ShaffGT
The Lost Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.22 16:11:00 -
[28]
bump for the win
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Hendelse
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.06.22 16:29:00 -
[29]
Great thread.
Thanks
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Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.06.22 16:32:00 -
[30]
Sticky plox.
Anti nano whiners read this thread and digest.
Assumption of Risk |
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