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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:35:00 -
[1]
Suppose I set up trade between two systems 5 light years apart. I start off and carry my goods from system A to system B via the stargate.
Now, since system B is five light years away, by jumping to B I have travelled back in time 5 years.
Now when I return to system A via the stargate, again a jump back in time a further 5 years, thus arriving in the system 10 years before I left!
If I repeat this 100 times, I will have travelled back 1000 years.
If I took an exceptionally long jump, say 8000 lightyears with my cargo of omber I could well have trouble selling my wares as the local inhabitants haven't got around to inventing money yet. I may also have trouble leaving the system as no stargate has been built yet!
Another neat trick (and I've tried this, it works):
I spend all evening in a station bar getting slaughtered on Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters. I then warp 2 light hours away and warp back, a total of 4 hours back in time. I then join myself in the same bar! In fact I can repeat this until the whole bar is filled with identical me's (with the difference that some will be considerably more drunk than others), which would make for an indescribably boring evening 
Makes ya think don't it?
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Harcole
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:40:00 -
[2]
not to flame or anything, but you don't travel back in time... its all to do with that Albert bloke... 
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Hippey
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:41:00 -
[3]
Pardon me if I'm wrong but your physics calculations are wrong. How long does it take you to travel 1 light year? Is it instant? If it takes you 30 seconds then you've only gained 30 seconds, not a whole year. And you can't go back in time, you can only go forward, or rather, time will pass slower for you then the rest.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Alastra
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:42:00 -
[4]
You should read the Frederic Brown's story about the box that appears two minutes before you put it on the time travel machine.
And then someone asked what would have happened if you didn't put the box in the machine?
Nuponi Nimedaz: "You're a pilot after my own heart, Alastra." |
Carino
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:44:00 -
[5]
Isn't based on a speed, the distance light would travel in one year and not time travel, we are covering a distance in space every second, not a year in time every light-year we travel 
Maybe I read it wrong or have no idea what its all about but to me that looks rather dumb.
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Vendora
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:44:00 -
[6]
Except it would only be good for future travel;
On what you are saying - Assuming minimal time passes for you in the jump both the systems would have moved on 5 years by the time you arrived (relativity).
If you had a new-born child when you left the first time and completed 7 return journeys then on your last return your 'child' would be 70.
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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:47:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Harcole
not to flame or anything, but you don't travel back in time... its all to do with that Albert bloke...
Excuse me... but a stargate jumps you instantly to a different system. Surely you know that solar systems are light years apart? If you accept the possibility of stargates, you have to accept time travel!
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Jay Gatsby
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:49:00 -
[8]
hmmm... looks up laymans's guide to the theory of general relativity (again)...
FTL travel doesn't mean you're going backwards in time. In fact, the general relativity theory says that while you to an observer may be travelling faster than light, you yourself are actually still moving slower than light, and therefore still moving forwards in time, although the passage of time relative to you has slowed down greatly.
Thus, if you make a jump 5 LY there and back, your boss may have already fired you for absenteeism, while you're convinced that last week's Friday night binge-drinking session isn't due to start for three hours.
I think that's about the sum of it... 
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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vendora
If you had a new-born child when you left the first time and completed 7 return journeys then on your last return your 'child' would be 70.
It's the other way around! Jumping takes you back in time so on your seventh return you would arrive 70 years before your child was born and could set up a nice savings account for them which should be worth a few mill by the time they're born 
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Lufio II
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:50:00 -
[10]
Light years is a distance, no time frame. Your consumptions may be right if you'd travel this distance in a conventional way not using measures that actually bend space like wormholes, since then relativity and such comes into action.
Wormholes create "shortcuts" by bending space, not time. The time is actually the same at entry and exit of the wormhole.
At a given moment the time is the same here and 5 light years away, that is talking from same space and not something interdimensional or whatever.
The point is: if your telescope in system A would be good enough, you could see yourself jumping into System B around five years later through the telescope, and that's only because the light carrying that picture needs 5 years to travel the distance. No timeshifting myths here at all.
No way to time travel and such stuff through use of Wormholes (in my understanding). When warping that might be different, but it needs to be late night before I can start thinking on relativity issues like those.
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Armin Chamberlain
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:51:00 -
[11]
Ok this makes really no sense at all! You won't travel back in time or forward, you travel to the planet! Just like Carino said. |
Vendora
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Originally by: Harcole
not to flame or anything, but you don't travel back in time... its all to do with that Albert bloke...
Excuse me... but a stargate jumps you instantly to a different system. Surely you know that solar systems are light years apart? If you accept the possibility of stargates, you have to accept time travel!
Well if its instant where does the 5years you are talking about go?
Do you mean that the jump for you is instant but the 'outside' moves on 5 years? If so that is relativity and neither end of the stargate will stay still whilst you travel.
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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 11:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lufio II
Light years is a distance, no time frame. Your consumptions may be right if you'd travel this distance in a conventional way not using measures that actually bend space like wormholes, since then relativity and such comes into action.
Wrong wrong wrong!
I observe the light of the star as it was when it was shining 5 years ago, since the light has taken 5 years to reach where I am now.
Now lets say I jump to the star with my megathron and blow the star up with my death star ray. Observers in the system I just departed would see the light from the star extinguished just after I had left that system and blown it up. However, remember that event occured 5 years before, since that was how long it took the light to travel to that system.
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Bosie
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:00:00 -
[14]
/emote hands CodeFreeze a large pot of very strong coffe
Bosie.
http://bosie.proboards40.com/
http://zeroimpact.co.uk/evemap
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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:04:00 -
[15]
Edited by: CodeFreeze on 14/05/2004 12:11:52
lol lets try something else to get you to understand.
I buy a very powerful red laser. I then jump to a system 100 light years away, jettison the laser in the system pointing the laser at the system I had just left, 100 light years away.
Observers at the original system would instantly see a very bright red light shining from that system.
But that system is 100 light years away, so the red light has taken exactly 100 years to reach me where I am now.
Therefore they are observing a red light that was shining 100 years ago.
Yes/No?
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Lufio II
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Lufio II on 14/05/2004 12:07:29
Originally by: CodeFreeze
I observe the light of the star as it was when it was shining 5 years ago, since the light has taken 5 years to reach where I am now.
exactly what I'm saying, that's because light usually doesn't use the advantages of wormholes and travels all the 5 light years of DISTANCE the conventional way in a straight line (compare: one light second is a distance of approx. 300000 km).
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Now lets say I jump to the star with my megathron and blow the star up with my death star ray. Observers in the system I just departed would see the light from the star extinguished just after I had left that system and blown it up. However, remember that event occured 5 years before, since that was how long it took the light to travel to that system.
well, this isn't true, the observers would actually see that event 5 years later than it actually happened(there's a small but major difference here). A supernova of a system 3 light years away you can see now has actually happened 3 years ago. If you'd now jump into that system immediately when you see the nova at home, you would enter a system that died 3 years ago, with nothing left in it beside maybe a black hole or whatever is left after the nova.
Edit: forgot a word
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Chimera Ur
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:10:00 -
[17]
No. Since you simply don't do timetravel because you are not traveling at FTL speeds.
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Lufio II
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Edited by: CodeFreeze on 14/05/2004 12:06:24
lol lets try something else to get you to understand.
I buy a very powerful red laser. I then jump to a system 100 light years away, jettison the laser in the system pointing the laser at the system I had just left, 100 light years away.
I then jump back to the original system.
I would instantly see a very bright red light shining from that system.
...
No, you would see that red bright light 100 years after you actually jumped back, because
Originally by: CodeFreeze
... that system is 100 light years away, so the red light has taken exactly 100 years to reach me where I am now.
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Andarvi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:12:00 -
[19]
No.
You jump 100 LY.
You set the laser.
You jump 100 LY back.
You wait patiently for 100 years for the red light to get to you.
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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lufio II
No, you would see that red bright light 100 years after you actually jumped back
See my edited post. It corrects for that
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:12:00 -
[21]
No
jumpgate is a shortcut between systems, u don`t travel trough time, u just take a shortcut
A -> B
normal travel say 100LY
jumpgate(shortcut) 10sec(enter-exit)
place a beam at a star 100LY away, jump/warp back 100LY and u won`t see the light(unless it`s coded by ccp as light can`t bend space on it`s own(warp)
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chimera Ur
No. Since you simply don't do timetravel because you are not traveling at FTL speeds.
How can you arrive at a system 5 lightyears away instantly without travelling faster than light? Light takes 5 years to travel a distance you have just instantly made. That's FTL to me!
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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:14:00 -
[23]
Edited by: CodeFreeze on 14/05/2004 12:16:46
Originally by: Andarvi
No.
You jump 100 LY.
You set the laser.
You jump 100 LY back.
You wait patiently for 100 years for the red light to get to you.
See my edited post. Once more:
I buy a very powerful red laser. I then jump to a system 100 light years away, jettison the laser in the system pointing the laser at the system I had just left, 100 light years away.
Observers at the original system would instantly (relative to my time-frame) see a very bright red light shining from that system.
But that system is 100 light years away, so the red light has taken exactly 100 years to reach me where I am now.
Therefore they are observing a red light that was shining 100 years ago.
Yes/No?
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:14:00 -
[24]
According to Einstein's THEORY of Relativity, you can accelerate in time by going faster than light. It should also be noted that since Einstein's theory was put forth, advances in quantum technology have caused people to start wondering about the validity of Einstein's theory.
You can't jump "back" in time, no matter how often you turn around and jump. The direction is moot, and the velocity is all that matters.
As for the laser, yes. You'd go home and wait a hundred years.
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tenashi on 14/05/2004 12:15:45
better said that u bend space by an extremely larg gravimatric field of some sort
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
Tenashi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Originally by: Andarvi
No.
You jump 100 LY.
You set the laser.
You jump 100 LY back.
You wait patiently for 100 years for the red light to get to you.
See my edited post. Once more:
I buy a very powerful red laser. I then jump to a system 100 light years away, jettison the laser in the system pointing the laser at the system I had just left, 100 light years away.
Observers at the original system would instantly see a very bright red light shining from that system.
But that system is 100 light years away, so the red light has taken exactly 100 years to reach me where I am now.
Therefore they are observing a red light that was shining 100 years ago.
Yes/No?
no, they won`t.
they`ll have to wait 100 years and it better be a damn powerfull laser
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
Xeis
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:17:00 -
[27]
Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity states that motion and time are, in fact, related.
Short version: here
Basically, the faster you go through space (the limit supposedly being the speed of light), the slower you move through time. It is hypothesized that going faster than light would actually take you backward in time.
I had a link once with a better description and actual mathematical figures, but I can't seem to find it any longer.
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Chimera Ur
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
How can you arrive at a system 5 lightyears away instantly without travelling faster than light? Light takes 5 years to travel a distance you have just instantly made. That's FTL to me!
Try reading some books before you post please. Wormholes are, like stated before, shortcuts. If you imagine space as a 2D sheet of paper, the shortest 'route' between 2 points is exactly 0 in length, you 'fold' the paper so the two points touch eachother. So yes, you have travelled a 'distance in a very short amount of time, but general relativity does not apply here because you simply cut a corner.
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Honey Babe
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:20:00 -
[29]
NO. You dont see the red light immediately when u jump back. You will see it 100 years from now.
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CodeFreeze
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tenashi
no, they won`t.
they`ll have to wait 100 years and it better be a damn powerfull laser
Right let's make this even clearer.
I share a beer with my buddy Joe. I then jump to that system 100 light years away and point the laser at the original system. Joe will see that light instantly, despite the fact that he had just been sharing a beer with me!
In fact I feel a bit guilty about Joe picking up the tab for the beer so I jump back the 100 light years and put 1 ISK in a savings account for Joe. Since I am now there 200 years before we shared the beer, 200 years later (at the time we are having the beer) Joe withdraws several million ISK from the account - beer paid for!
PS Einstein's theories don't apply because they cannot explain stargates
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Lufio II
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:30:00 -
[31]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Originally by: Lufio II
No, you would see that red bright light 100 years after you actually jumped back
See my edited post. It corrects for that
well, your edited post doesn't adress what I try to tell you:
you don't travel in any direction throught time. The thing that you see events, that are 5 light years away, 5 years after the events has happened is only due to the fact, that you always see the light reflected or emitted by those events, that's true for something that happens right before your eyes or 5 lightyears away.
This has nothing to do with time travels in any way.
jump to a system 5 light years away, fire a laser to your home system, jump back, wait 5 years until you get grilled by your own frickin laser beam. It just needs that time to arrive, since it doesn't JUMP like you.
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:34:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Tenashi on 14/05/2004 12:50:02
warp for the n00b:
star trek example,
warp engine -> nacells -> warp buble -> gravimetric field(folding) -> direction u want to go.
take a sheet of paper -> bend the 2 edges to eachother -> make a lil hole at the edge going throuh both sides of the paper -> unfold
u see 2 holes, 1 on each side of the sheet travelld instantly, agree so far? :)
the more powerfull ur engine is (or less mass in eve`s case) u can bring the 2 edges closer to eachother so the relative speed is higher.
1. observer watches a bship gp to warp, larger mass so can`t fold space that far. when it goes to warp, the observer sees the ship move at 3au/s.
2. same with a frig but mass is smaller so it can reach a speed of 6au, all relative.
inside the ship u don`t actually move, the space around it is "moved"(folded) otherwise u could never reach say warp 5, u bend space more and more when increasing "speed".
lets not forget an emergency stop out of warp, if u were moving then u`d be splat across the wall 0.001 of a millimeter, not so great to travel with 
wormholes is almost instantly with entrance and exit, had a great page with examples on how it theoreticly works(warp/wormholes) but wasn`t saved after a format, will try to find it again as it would answer most of ur questions with examples
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
rcxdude
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:35:00 -
[33]
Edited by: rcxdude on 14/05/2004 12:38:41
Codefreeze: you don't seem to grasp the simple aspet of jumpgates: they warp space and time, so that you only seem to pass a kilometer, but space is warped, so to the rest f the world, you are going extremly fast. this does not affect you, because you are in a warped space. i willtry to demonstrate this with symbols:
distance between |and|=1 kilometer
for this simple diagram, let's say that 1 light year=50 kilometers
normal space:
A||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||B
with a jump gate:
A |||||*jumpgate*|.............|.................|..........|*jumpgate*|||||| B
so you really onlt travel a few km, while you seem(to the outside world) to be going very fast. also, you would seem extreamly elongated, but not any less of height
you understand now?
also see This
edit: this stupid forum won't allow lots of spaces 
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:43:00 -
[34]
found some ofthe info, read all the content pages as it`s a pritty story explained abit :)
will try to find the other i had in mind
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/warp.htm
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
N0sferathu
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Posted - 2004.05.14 12:58:00 -
[35]
Edited by: N0sferathu on 14/05/2004 13:01:14
Guys, read the tech articles on site. You travel trou a wormhole and not a strait line so...
http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:07:00 -
[36]
Originally by: N0sferathu
Edited by: N0sferathu on 14/05/2004 13:01:14
Guys, read the tech articles on site. You travel trou a wormhole and not a strait line so...
http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/
with a gate, yes, with warp, no
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
Allaina
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:19:00 -
[37]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Right let's make this even clearer.
They've been trying buddy
Originally by: CodeFreeze
I share a beer with my buddy Joe. I then jump to that system 100 light years away and point the laser at the original system. Joe will see that light instantly, despite the fact that he had just been sharing a beer with me!
NO! NO! NO! Joe will be sipping bears for another hundred years waiting for the light from your laser to show up.
Originally by: CodeFreeze
In fact I feel a bit guilty about Joe picking up the tab for the beer so I jump back the 100 light years and put 1 ISK in a savings account for Joe. Since I am now there 200 years before we shared the beer, 200 years later (at the time we are having the beer) Joe withdraws several million ISK from the account - beer paid for!
The actual result of this is Joe is now 200 years older when you deposit the isk than when you left to turn on your flashlight while you've only aged a few hours/days and he is JUST NOW seeing the light from the red laser. You are not there 200 years before the 2 of you started drinking you are there 200 years after. The thing to remember when engageing in "relativistic faster than light travel" is that the rest of the universe goes about it's business while YOU age slowly. You don't go back in time, you don't even go forward in time. The "time travel" you are talking about is the fact that you can return to the original system and obeserve yourself turning on the red laser.
A lightyear is a distance, not a timespan. FTL changes your experience of time while you travel a distance. The universe continues to age regardless of what you are doing, you are the one who is aging slowly.
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Grimnubelin
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:28:00 -
[38]
The stargates do not present any time-dilation effects because the distance you travel along the wormhole in wormhole space is short compared to the direct path within real space. You do not travel faster than the speed of light, you just take a shorter path at a more modest speed. Hence no relativistic effects, and no time dilation. From the POV of observers you disappear into one end of the wormhole and appear at the other end.
Even if you did travel close to the speed of light, you never go back in time. Time just elapses more slowly within your frame of reference than it does in the absolute frame of reference.
It is not possible to travel faster than the speed of light. Your mass increases to infinity the closer you get to c, and the motive force required to increase your acceleration also increases to infinity:
m(v) = m0 / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) as v->c, m(v)->infinity
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Manaro Delasa
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:28:00 -
[39]
codefreeze, i think you are getting a little confused with the term light-years. A lightyear is simply a measurement of distance - the distance light travels in one year. (very big number of miles ) Because of the vastness of space, such a measument is needed.
Think about it this way....
Using your theroy, if me and you set off from a given point at the same time heading towards a nearby shop, but you went by car and I walked - you would get their first - does that mean that you have traveled forward/backward in time, because you got there quicker?? No, if you and i both looked at our watches they would read the same time.
A jump gate is simply your car, you can use it to get where your going more quickly, but it does not affect your position in time at all.
Hope that helped clear things up a little??
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Lufio II
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:33:00 -
[40]
actually light years is one of the smaller units in space measurement. comes in my knowledge right after AU (astronomical units, which is the average distance between sun and earth, or approx. 8 light minutes, or about 1,5 billion km afaik). More often used is Parsec, but actually I do not happen to know how many lightyears that would be ;)
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porkmaster
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:34:00 -
[41]
dont why you are worried about it, i been travling with' space mass antimatter/matter reconstuction, dont move your ship, move space its self, thus you get to where your going, via not moving at all, easy realy , and you make more money, try it
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bUBbLeS
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:36:00 -
[42]
++ WARNING ++ WARNING ++
GEEK ALERT
++ WARNING ++ WARNING ++
USE EXTREME FIREPOWER AND CAKE
++ WARNING ++ WARNING ++
Julius ceaser : "operor vos volo MCCCXXXVII laganum bUBbLeS?"
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Kamikazee Joe
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Posted - 2004.05.14 13:45:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Manaro Delasa
= A lightyear is simply a measurement of distance - the distance light travels in one year.
Discussion over, if you do not understand this maybe you shouldn't post, and i'm amazed you figured out how to turn on your computer
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Grimnubelin
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Posted - 2004.05.14 14:54:00 -
[44]
A parsec is the distance at which the stellar parallax is 1 arcsecond. i.e. the maximum displacement between 2 stellar positions taken within a year is 1 arcsecond.
It's about 3.6ly
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Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.05.14 16:20:00 -
[45]
As others have said, its simply impossible to go back in time, and considering that with a 'jump gate' you travel instantly to another system, it means that everyone sees that, too. Its entirely possible to go faster than light.
Its simple, really. You use the jump gate, go at extreme speeds faster than light, and arrive at the destination almost instantly, and its the same for you as it is for the people you left as it is for the people you jumped to.
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Zhuge Liang
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Posted - 2004.05.14 19:25:00 -
[46]
Ah but have you assumed this riddle, if you travel 1000 light years to a system, the people in the system you are traveling to would have progressed by a 1000 light years by the time you got there thus ergo visa ve you really dont travel in time. 
/emote tries to look like he knows what he's talking about.
ZhuuÀ gheyÀleeÀyan (Kongming) |
Naos Zapatero
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Posted - 2004.05.14 20:29:00 -
[47]
Sooo this is what happens when the down time is a little longer than usual
I think a point that got missed was Jumpgates are point to point in as much as there is no true distance between jumps although the distance between locations of jumpgates may be huge. (imo) |
Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.05.14 20:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Zhuge Liang
Ah but have you assumed this riddle, if you travel 1000 light years to a system, the people in the system you are traveling to would have progressed by a 1000 light years by the time you got there thus ergo visa ve you really dont travel in time.
/emote tries to look like he knows what he's talking about.
Wrong, a LIGHT YEAR is not a measure of time! Its a measure of DISTANCE.
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rcxdude
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Posted - 2004.05.14 21:37:00 -
[49]
I don't know why so many people think that light year is a measure of time, not distance. perhaps it's the word year
and what do you mean you've tried the bar thing? (perhaps you got drunk and looked in a mirror)
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Heritor
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Posted - 2004.05.14 21:49:00 -
[50]
Quote:
hmmm... looks up laymans's guide to the theory of general relativity (again)...
FTL travel doesn't mean you're going backwards in time. In fact, the general relativity theory says that while you to an observer may be travelling faster than light, you yourself are actually still moving slower than light, and therefore still moving forwards in time, although the passage of time relative to you has slowed down greatly.
Thus, if you make a jump 5 LY there and back, your boss may have already fired you for absenteeism, while you're convinced that last week's Friday night binge-drinking session isn't due to start for three hours.
I think that's about the sum of it...
I think you mean special relativity which deals with time frames moving at a constant velocity...Genaral relativity deals with time frames that are accelerating and if you find a book which deals with that in laymans terms i would be interested.
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2004.05.14 21:52:00 -
[51]
as u said, ppl see it reversed of how it actually is, instead of distance travelled in a year, travel time over the distance with the speed of light
both the same, just the mixed up the 2 :)
Everlasting Vendetta - Search |
Ariadne
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Posted - 2004.05.14 22:04:00 -
[52]
What happens if you travel at lightspeed and then turn your headlights on
"This means V+R."
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Kipkruide
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Posted - 2004.05.14 22:15:00 -
[53]
well i don't think you actually ever travel at lightspeed, you can just get rather close to it, given that you have a headlight on, and are therefore proabably not a particle.
But in the universe the particle would be going at lightspeed, it would just be going relatively slowly to you, since there isn't anything in space that could reflect your lightbeam going near lightspeed i guess the question is moot anywayz, and if there was something to reflect it , you'd probabaly be dead before you saw it anywayz. After you hit it that is
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Zhuge Liang
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Posted - 2004.05.14 23:23:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ariadne
What happens if you travel at lightspeed and then turn your headlights on
It causes a submolecular reaction which in turn tears a rift in space and propels you billions of light years in a random direction through the anomoly. Unfortunately there is no way to get back where you were, thus ergo visa ve you are lost in space forever.
Anymore brainbusters?
ZhuuÀ gheyÀleeÀyan (Kongming) |
KIAPieman
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Posted - 2004.05.14 23:42:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ariadne
What happens if you travel at lightspeed and then turn your headlights on
well there are two ways of reasonin this. if you are simply just travelling at the speed of light, you will not see anything ahead of you, as light travels at a constant speed (which you are already at), so the torch wouldnt shine ahead of you.
but if yo are traveling at FTL speeds, then its an argument on what the space in the "warp bubble" id like, is it simply normal space with the same sules of physics, in which case the toch would shine as normal, just to the limit of the space time fold.
the real screwy one is this:
if you are traveling at FTL speeds, what colour would your underwear be, i know what my colour would be its the proverbial brown tousers time, i mean if you were on a collision course wiht a stellar body, you would hit it before you even saw it in theory, as you are ahead of the light you are seeing at the time, so if you travel at 10m/s over the speed of light, you are seeing at that point a object 10 meters BEHIND you at that point.
my head hurts now
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wordy
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Posted - 2004.05.14 23:43:00 -
[56]
I've got no idea on any of the maths or anything, but wouldn't the to two systems have established their own times as they both have suns as to which they base thier relative time zones on?
But remember that EST (EVE Standard Time) is set throughout the universe so that wouldn't cause a problem would it?
*disclaimer* I haven't really got a clue what I'm on about, so I'll leave the scientist talk to the guys who do
Enjoy
"Hey, I am cool. My mum said so!" - Milhouse Van Houten
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Cosh
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Posted - 2004.05.14 23:44:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Zhuge Liang
Originally by: Ariadne
What happens if you travel at lightspeed and then turn your headlights on
It causes a submolecular reaction which in turn tears a rift in space and propels you billions of light years in a random direction through the anomoly. Unfortunately there is no way to get back where you were, thus ergo visa ve you are lost in space forever.
Anymore brainbusters?
That happened to me once - I had to petition it to get returened to normal space.
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Fighterpilotjp
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Posted - 2004.05.15 00:42:00 -
[58]
I've wondered about the effects of FTL travel many times myself, though I am extremely inexperienced in the field as far as numbers and the theories themselves.
But first of all, are we assuming light is matter, energy, or something completely different? I understand that most people refer to light as small particles called photons that simply travel from most things that are producing energy. If that is the case, travelling faster than light is no different than travelling faster than sound, we are simply winning the race to the next system, and movement at high speeds simply doesn't affect time. Think of what people used to believe would happen if we were to break the sound barrier, and as it turns out, the sound just gets to observers more slowly than the object itself. Why shouldn't it be the same for light? Time, in itself, if nonexistent if you think about it, it's only a measurement we use to order events.
As for folding space to travel from one point to another, this makes more sense, but what in the universe are you grabbing on to that's letting you bend it? Space is empty, save for the radiation speeding off on its own, and if time is really nonexistent, there is no space-time fabric. It would be like grabbing air with your hands.
Forgive me since I'm grossly inexperienced in these matters, but with my experience, this is the way I see it.
combat Your Tachyon Beam Laser I hits Blood Arch Templar, doing 133.7 damage. |
Origim
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Posted - 2004.05.15 00:51:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Origim on 15/05/2004 01:40:32
You are not instantly traveling 5 light years through normal space, you are instantly traveling via wormhole space, therefore time doesn't shift.
Also, just because it takes light to travel X kilometers 5 years, it doesn't mean you will travel back in time 5 years.
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Origim
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Posted - 2004.05.15 00:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Origim on 15/05/2004 01:03:45
Edited by: Origim on 15/05/2004 01:02:48
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Originally by: Lufio II
Light years is a distance, no time frame. Your consumptions may be right if you'd travel this distance in a conventional way not using measures that actually bend space like wormholes, since then relativity and such comes into action.
Wrong wrong wrong!
I observe the light of the star as it was when it was shining 5 years ago, since the light has taken 5 years to reach where I am now.
Now lets say I jump to the star with my megathron and blow the star up with my death star ray. Observers in the system I just departed would see the light from the star extinguished just after I had left that system and blown it up. However, remember that event occured 5 years before, since that was how long it took the light to travel to that system.
A supersonic plane will arive at the X destination BEFORE the supersonic boom that the plane created... which by no means implies it traveled back in time.
Replace the following- a plane with your mega, sound with light, and supersonic boom with a star explosion and you've got a proof that the star explosion that you will see is just a shadow. EDIT: A shadow of the past.
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Posting Efficiency / Rank 1 / SP: 68542 of 256000 |
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Origim
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Posted - 2004.05.15 00:59:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Origim on 15/05/2004 01:40:08
Originally by: Xeis
Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity states that motion and time are, in fact, related.
Short version: here
Basically, the faster you go through space (the limit supposedly being the speed of light), the slower you move through time. It is hypothesized that going faster than light would actually take you backward in time.
I had a link once with a better description and actual mathematical figures, but I can't seem to find it any longer.
And THAT is the choke point- in either warping or gate jumping, you do not travel through normal space, therefore, technically, time travel does not occur.
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Posting Efficiency / Rank 1 / SP: 68542 of 256000 |
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Baleur
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Posted - 2004.05.15 01:03:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Baleur on 15/05/2004 01:07:14
prolly been 4 pages bout this, but i dont ahve teh time to read em, just gotta say i admire your long nice post about those toughts, too bad you have mis-understood the most basic of all time equasions :) You dont travel back in time, if system B is 5 lightyears away, it means that by staying in system A, and looking at the system B star, you see the starlight as it was 5 years ago, now, if you have a stargate that takes you there in an instant, the...... bah i give up.... time is not really a constant, but in this case, lets think of it that way, you wont gain or loose 5 years or anything noticeable. lol good try tough 
to above poster, aye, for travelling faster than light, which anything larger than a quark prolly cant do, you can tough, use a wormhole, and thats prolly what the whole stargate thing is about. so there is no timecrap to think about, u just fly as u fly trough normal space. 
God i gotta change my sig..
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svetlana
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Posted - 2004.05.15 03:00:00 -
[63]
jumpgates teleport you, you are not 'flying' between the two gates thus it has nothing to do with time dialation.
not to mention that there is no ability to travel back in time anyways, you can only dialate your own relative time to slow it down but never go backwards.
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Tank CEO
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Posted - 2004.05.15 03:03:00 -
[64]
People say that there is no time. People say that if a jet flew fast enough and went around the world fast enough, it could see it self launching. Bull****? yes. reason, because you already left.
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.05.15 03:37:00 -
[65]
/emote looks at his B in Modern Physics
/emote is a Physics Major
This thread makes me sad. By the way, the entire initial scenario is wrong.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
cypriss
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Posted - 2004.05.15 03:46:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tank CEO
People say that there is no time. People say that if a jet flew fast enough and went around the world fast enough, it could see it self launching. Bull****? yes. reason, because you already left.
actually IF you could fly faster than the speed of light you COULD see yourself taking off. but it wouldn't be YOU taking off, it would be the IMAGE of you taking off, therefore you wouldn't be able to have a beer with yourself, you haven't travelled back in time, you have just caught up to the image (which is light) that you are travelling faster than.
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Tripp Orsam
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Posted - 2004.05.15 07:14:00 -
[67]
Think of jumpgates as advanced cloning and not fast travel speeds, we have cloning technology in our current time, we do NOT have any knowledge of time travel so for now lets just says its impossible. But if cloning exsists then it might be possible to one day clone an entire ship + contents + pilot to another point in the galaxy instantly(or very very fast anyway), all you would need at the other end is the 'blueprint' to reconstruct your ship + contents + pilot, and a clone-construction device thingy(tm).
another example: if i send a contract on paper by snail mail to an employee to be signed 2000 miles away it will take time to travel there, but if I scan then email it its alot faster.
also: star trek transporter thingy anyone?
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EVE Online perfectly strikes all your free time wrecking your 1994 marriage. |
Tripp Orsam
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Posted - 2004.05.15 07:22:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Ariadne
What happens if you travel at lightspeed and then turn your headlights on
ROFL, thats a good one.
perhaps you get a female voice (like the one that says 'warp drive active') saying that you cant bring your headlights on because you need 60 cpu but you only have 58.7 cpu remaining.
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EVE Online perfectly strikes all your free time wrecking your 1994 marriage. |
Kronarty
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Posted - 2004.05.15 08:29:00 -
[69]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Suppose I set up trade between two systems 5 light years apart. I start off and carry my goods from system A to system B via the stargate.
Now, since system B is five light years away, by jumping to B I have travelled back in time 5 years.
Now when I return to system A via the stargate, again a jump back in time a further 5 years, thus arriving in the system 10 years before I left!
If I repeat this 100 times, I will have travelled back 1000 years.
If I took an exceptionally long jump, say 8000 lightyears with my cargo of omber I could well have trouble selling my wares as the local inhabitants haven't got around to inventing money yet. I may also have trouble leaving the system as no stargate has been built yet!
Another neat trick (and I've tried this, it works):
I spend all evening in a station bar getting slaughtered on Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters. I then warp 2 light hours away and warp back, a total of 4 hours back in time. I then join myself in the same bar! In fact I can repeat this until the whole bar is filled with identical me's (with the difference that some will be considerably more drunk than others), which would make for an indescribably boring evening
Makes ya think don't it?
Phone your parents, tell them to ask for a refund of all the cash they paid for your education.
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.05.15 08:49:00 -
[70]
I'd like to thank you all for giving me the energy to add to my .sig.
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Liz Bathory
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Posted - 2004.05.15 08:53:00 -
[71]
i'm not a physics majjor, so my apologies to ronyo if i get this wrong
but, what the stargates in eve do can best be demostrated with a 2 dimensional universe (don't try to think of it using a universe with 3 spatial dimesions, it will break your brain)
what happens is this.. imagine a rubber sheet, this is the eve universe, yuli is at one point on the sheet, and pator, is several billion, billion miles dsistant, if you follow the surface of the sheet
but by taking the 1 jump through a gate (under the old superhighways)
you get to have a look at the sheet fromt he 3rd spatial dimension, where it is folded, so that pator is about 1 mm below yulai
light always travels along the sheet, ships in stargate don;t, they travel outside the sheet, where 2 point can be ery cloe, despite billions of billion sof miles of sheet seperating them
this causes apparent ftl travel, at actual velocities much lower than that of light
snce you're travelling slower than light, according to einstein, time continues moving forward for you at nearly the ame speed asfor the rest of the universe
you have a beer with joe(age 20), go to pator, and set up the laser,
retunr, and sit with joe untill he is 120, getting incredibly drunk before the light from the laser shows up
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Yangja Isuko
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Posted - 2004.05.15 09:15:00 -
[72]
the 'travelling' back in time conundrum only applies by moving through regular timespace faster than the speed of light. this would be using conventional means of acceleration (which would be impossible because to travel at the speed of light, any object with mass would require infinite acceleration). in eve and in most sci-fi however, FTL travel is achieved through warp effects (which is a study now taken seriously by the scientific community at large), moving the mass (ship), through a 'bubble' of sorts. the space the ship is in travels faster than light, but the ship itself doesn't, and thus doesn't experience any of the weird time related effects associated with such high relativistic speeds.
the principle commonly used to imagine warp travel is to think of it as zipper, with the ship being the actual zipper, you contract the space in front of you, and expand behind you, and you achieve acceleration without ever actually 'physically' moving.
i'm fairly sure someone else explained this somewhere else in the thread, but let's face it, that's a lot of reading to do. which is probably why nobody will read this either. hmm...that's a bigger mystery to solve than the one posited by the original post.
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Khyle
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Posted - 2004.05.15 09:48:00 -
[73]
Originally by: CodeFreeze
Originally by: Chimera Ur
No. Since you simply don't do timetravel because you are not traveling at FTL speeds.
How can you arrive at a system 5 lightyears away instantly without travelling faster than light? Light takes 5 years to travel a distance you have just instantly made. That's FTL to me!
Space is not flat, shortcuts are possible, commonly known as wormholes or singularities. the light in your scenario doesnt take that shortcut, but you dont travel faster than the light, your way is shorter. imagine me and you standing 1 meter south of the northpole, if i go north and you go south, i can reach the northpole faster than you even if im a lot slower ;).
(warping in eve is another issue, but not instantly)
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Khyle
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Posted - 2004.05.15 09:50:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ariadne
What happens if you travel at lightspeed and then turn your headlights on
Youll notice nothing, as time will stand still for you if you travel at the speed of light (yeah, you will think the travel is instantly, but thats not true ;). the rest of the world will see the equivalent of a mach cone emmited by a plane at the speed of sound, only with light (a very bright, very short pulse).
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KIAPieman
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Posted - 2004.05.15 09:55:00 -
[75]
Edited by: KIAPieman on 15/05/2004 09:59:23
they tried the speed/time dialation thing a few years ago didnt they, thye put an atomic clock on a jet and had it fly around the world for 24 hours, and when it landed and they compared the clock to another one it has lost 0.00000001 of a second. the theory works that the faster you travel the slower time passes for you, but you would have to be going way way too fast. thinking about it, unless somthign drastic was discovered to compensate for the crushing effect of the g-force, intenselty trained and equipped pilots at this point can only just put up with 12 g's (i think, i may be wrong) before they blackout. imagine the g force at the speed of light, it would turn you into a pankake.
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