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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
xxxak
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
3
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was an avid player of Star Wars Galaxies. I was a Jedi early on, I had the big multi-room starship, I had several of the large type homes on several planets.
That game died for me when the new combat system was released. I, and thousands of other players, quit overnight.
I worry about this bullet time feature that is coming to EVE.
Servers are extremely powerful today. Proper coding allows companies to run extreme simulations on multi-core setups.
The Devs want to be "lazy" and stick to the SINGLE-CORE CODE that STILL runs all of EvE.
I worry this will break the game.
Comments? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Atlas.
61
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
I love you Nulli bros but that is an extremely superficial link you're making between sge 'bullet time' and EVE 'time dilation' |
Xercodo
Xovoni Directorate
42
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Can you provide a bit more background as to what was game breaking, I'm unfamiliar with the specific changes to STG The Drake is a Lie |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
14
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree that TD has the potential to be terrible and break the game. But it is also possible than it will be better than watching guns cycle once every 15 minutes, which is what most hope for. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Which kind of lag do you prefer?
(1) Unevenly applied, unpredictable, causes weird effects like ships remaining in space, benefits some types of ships disproportionately
(2) Evenly applied, predictable, everything works as normal, just somewhat slower overall
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
malaire
18
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
The dev blog about bullet time / time dilation: introducing time dilation
Carebear -á* -áTrader -á* -áPerfect Music-á-á* -áNever Scamming -á* -áNever Pirating |
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CCP Zymurgist
C C P C C P Alliance
87
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Team Gridlock talks about this in their dev blog about Time Dilation that if you haven't read this already I highly suggest giving it a glance. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us at http://support.eveonline.com/pages/petitions/createpetition.aspx |
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xxxak
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
3
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Zymurgist wrote:Team Gridlock talks about this in their dev blog about Time Dilation that if you haven't read this already I highly suggest giving it a glance.
I have read that. And it actually might be a very cool feature/improvement.
But the Devil is in the details.
I am just saying that I hope that this is implemented very carefully, with a lot of user input and testing.
If you get it wrong, it could do a lot of damage to EVE.
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Xercodo
Xovoni Directorate
42
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ya i have a general idea of what Team Gridlock is working on but I'm seeing any possible way for "fixing lag" to break the game
I don't any mechanics changing, I just see that gun might act properly when there is 87241365 people on grid all firing The Drake is a Lie |
Skex Relbore
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
32
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Posted - 2011.09.09 18:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
You are an idiot who should learn to do a bit more research before clueing the rest of the world into the fact.
CCP has explained already how multi-coring would not solve the current latency problem. At issue is ensuring that events take place in the proper sequence this requires actions to be processed in serial rather than parallel. The thing is that you can't have it calculating the position of a every asset and damage applied seperately because you'd have things happen like taking damage from a ship that's already destroyed or a ship getting hit once it's already out of range.
The places where massive amounts of parallel processing can be done is graphic rendering but all that is handled client side.
Time dilation is a brilliant solution to the problem of lag in massive fleet fights that actually came from a player and denotes one of those rare occasions when CCP actually listened to us. |
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Reeno Coleman
Strategic Solutions Ltd.
21
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Posted - 2011.09.09 18:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
time dilation as i understand it will only change one thing:
It makes the lag equal for everyone, rather than having some lucky bastards among the pilots who can still lock and unlock reasonably well, while others are stuck in the lag void completely.
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Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2011.09.09 18:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Reeno Coleman wrote:time dilation as i understand it will only change one thing:
It makes the lag equal for everyone, rather than having some lucky bastards among the pilots who can still lock and unlock reasonably well, while others are stuck in the lag void completely.
This guy has it right.
OP is why thumbs down needs to be added to the new forum, stupid people who's research consists solely of learning the name of a new feature need to be visibly flagged to everyone so we can ignore them. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
49
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Posted - 2011.09.09 18:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Which kind of lag do you prefer?
(1) Unevenly applied, unpredictable, causes weird effects like ships remaining in space, benefits some types of ships disproportionately
(2) Evenly applied, predictable, everything works as normal, just somewhat slower overall
Quoting this post as it's a good summary of what we're hoping to achieve with Time Dilation. #1 is what we have currently when the server becomes overloaded, #2 is what we'd greatly prefer happen.
As for this signifying us becoming lazy about server optimization, that's a fair concern, as it'll certainly make the pain of being overloaded less acute. At the same time, it's not cool to leave a painful thing alone just because it reminds us that performance is important. I have a baseball bat for reminding people of that.
Fate willing, we'll be doing public tests of Time Dilation in the coming weeks' mass tests, so you can get a first-hand impression of it there~ |
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Arcon Telf
N0 APOLOGY Controlled Chaos
1
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Posted - 2011.09.09 18:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
It seems to me that time dilation is one of the best ideas yet for dealing with lag because it doesn't have to break immersion. In fact, it would be easy to write time dilation into Eve Online's "diegesis." Perhaps a new time dilation skill GÇö which "upgrades" one's pod for better performance in large fights GÇö should be required to enter nullsec. Obviously a 5-level skill that grants increasing bonuses makes no sense, but perhaps some kind of one off certification would work.
The point is that time dilation could be a rather elegant solution (not panacea) for lag GÇö technically and in terms of the story in which we all participate. |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
12
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
The concept of time dilation is pretty ******* awesome. Shame on you OP for having no ******* clue and posting ****.
BTW time dilation works by solving the REAL issue with lag - the server reaching 100% cpu use. Once it hits 100%, the problems we all know and hate start. All time dilation needs to do, is slow the command stack enough that it can sit at 99%.
So in theory, the game may only need to be "slowed" by 1-10% to make it work with no issues. I can't say it would be easy to notice if my autocannons were cycling 2% slower .. so I fail to see any game-breaking mechanics it would introduce.
I <3 team gridlock |
Dr Slaughter
Coreli Corporation Naraka.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
OP.. it's SO easy to re-write the GIL to take advantage of multi-core processors that's why no one has bothered to do it for YEARS
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Florestan Bronstein
United Engineering Services
33
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Fate willing, we'll be doing public tests of Time Dilation in the coming weeks' mass tests, so you can get a first-hand impression of it there~
CCP Veritas wrote:so you can get a first-hand impression of it there~
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xxxak
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
3
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Which kind of lag do you prefer?
(1) Unevenly applied, unpredictable, causes weird effects like ships remaining in space, benefits some types of ships disproportionately
(2) Evenly applied, predictable, everything works as normal, just somewhat slower overall Quoting this post as it's a good summary of what we're hoping to achieve with Time Dilation. #1 is what we have currently when the server becomes overloaded, #2 is what we'd greatly prefer happen. As for this signifying us becoming lazy about server optimization, that's a fair concern, as it'll certainly make the pain of being overloaded less acute. At the same time, it's not cool to leave a painful thing alone just because it reminds us that performance is important. I have a baseball bat for reminding people of that. Fate willing, we'll be doing public tests of Time Dilation in the coming weeks' mass tests, so you can get a first-hand impression of it there~
This is actually a cool response.
1) I think the Devs are making a bigger effort to talk to us which is nice 2) I am actually excited to hear it is that close to testing, and I will help try it out. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Which kind of lag do you prefer?
(1) Unevenly applied, unpredictable, causes weird effects like ships remaining in space, benefits some types of ships disproportionately
(2) Evenly applied, predictable, everything works as normal, just somewhat slower overall In addition, regardless of what other improvements they can make, time dilation offers a very good thing that will be needed sooner or later: graceful degradation (I keep using that term a lot these daysGǪ).
So let us say that the coding fairy grants their wish and they now have multi-core capable simulations. Yay. Now we can use a second core and get 50% (completely random number) more people in the fight. Great! So what happens?
Well, everyone obviously brings 50% more people and then we lag, just like now, and things start to break. So we add another two cores, adding another 50%, which again brings 50% more people and then stuff start to break. Se we addGǪ no, we don't because those cores are occupied running Jita. So we're left with a fight that is just as broken as it is today GÇö the lag is still there.
What this situation needs is the exact same thing that is needed right now: a way for the server to gracefully reduce its computational load, as opposed to the current, un-graceful GÇ£nah, I'm going to skip you GÇö have fun watching a black screenGÇ¥. One core or 59 (or one eighth of a shared core), the problem is always the same: there is a limit (that people will push) and once there, things break. So regardless of what other trickery they can implement, TD being there to reduce the breakage is unquestionably beneficial and unquestionably needed. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Whiteknight03
WESAYSO Industries
4
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Do you know how much of a pain it is to rewrite code to take advantage of multi-core systems?
I'll take the solution that'll work without giving us EVE 2 thank you very much |
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
37
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Whiteknight03 wrote:Do you know how much of a pain it is to rewrite code to take advantage of multi-core systems?
I'll take the solution that'll work without giving us EVE 2 thank you very much
oh the issue is not just going multicore.
there were also talks about the infiniband project where you could move threads around the server cluster.
that would be f'kin awesome, but the walls to take down just to be able to....
TD is a simpler solution. not a permanent solution, because as tippia said, if you "fix" the game to hold 1000vs1000 battle, someone will make a 2000vs2000 battle and crash/burn the server. So yes, tbh TD will probably be a temporary solution, but a long term temporary solution at that. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
HaxTis
Masters of Our Fate Screaming Meercats
1
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
this is actually a viable way to control the load, i.e lag. if they can pull if off while balancing the mods and drones properly, it might actually be the best thing to reduce lag that we all know and love. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:TD is a simpler solution. not a permanent solution, because as tippia said, if you "fix" the game to hold 1000vs1000 battle, someone will make a 2000vs2000 battle and crash/burn the server. So yes, tbh TD will probably be a temporary solution, but a long term temporary solution at that. Actually, I kind of meant that the other way aroundGǪ
TD is the final solution, in the sense that GÇ£it's what kicks in when all other solutions have nothing more to offerGÇ¥. Once you've pushed the server to the limit, TD kicks in an makes sure the limit isn't actually broken, but rather that the chaos gets calmed down a bit. It's a kind of a force multiplier for other fixes that lets them be worth a little bit more. Calling it a temporary solution is short-selling it a bit GÇö it's as permanent and long-term a solution as they come since it will be beneficial in combinations with future improvements as well (since, as history has shown, as soon as the upper limit for a working fleet is moved, the fleets adjust in size to match the new limit).
It's perhaps better to think of it as something other than a solution to lag, because it doesn't actually remove lag GÇö it removes lag-related breakage, which is just as important. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
37
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Grimpak wrote:TD is a simpler solution. not a permanent solution, because as tippia said, if you "fix" the game to hold 1000vs1000 battle, someone will make a 2000vs2000 battle and crash/burn the server. So yes, tbh TD will probably be a temporary solution, but a long term temporary solution at that. Actually, I kind of meant that the other way aroundGǪ TD is the final solution, in the sense that GÇ£it's what kicks in when all other solutions have nothing more to offerGÇ¥. Once you've pushed the server to the limit, TD kicks in an makes sure the limit isn't actually broken, but rather that the chaos gets calmed down a bit. It's a kind of a force multiplier for other fixes that lets them be worth a little bit more. Calling it a temporary solution is short-selling it a bit GÇö it's as permanent and long-term a solution as they come since it will be beneficial in combinations with future improvements as well (since, as history has shown, as soon as the upper limit for a working fleet is moved, the fleets adjust in size to match the new limit). It's perhaps better to think of it as something other than a solution to lag, because it doesn't actually remove lag GÇö it removes lag- related breakage, which is just as important. tbh I still think it has limits. Granted it might take some time to reach said limits, but still, limits. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
49
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
To say what Tippia said in different words...
Most of the things we talk about when we talk about "fixing fleet lag" have to do with increasing the capacity of these fights, that is, the number of players it takes to make the server start exhibiting "lag". Team Gridlock has been at that for over a year now, and have delivered very good results.
Time Dilation does not increase capacity at all. These days we handle about 1000 players (more or less depending on the type of activity being done) before lag starts kicking in. The day after we ship Time Dilation, it'll be exactly the same. The difference is what happens *after* that threshold is passed. Instead of the effects we all know and hate, it'll simply slow the game down until able to cope with the load.
After we ship, we plan to go back to work increasing capacity. These things are not mutually-exclusive. Rather, they're quite complementary. |
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Harold Tuphlos
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
1
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
In before incarna 1.2.1 ( or whatever TD ships as) is a bigger deal than the rest of all the incarna releases combined. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
5
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm pretty certain that CCP has a player mandate to implement Time Dilation. I don't think you'll have to worry about a SWG NWE fiasco from Time Dilation. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
32
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:......
Fate willing, we'll be doing public tests of Time Dilation in the coming weeks' mass tests, so you can get a first-hand impression of it there~
Awesome!
How will you get a big blob of lag on Sisi? Ive been in the last few mass tests and there has been some lag, but not that much.
Try and get more people? An offer of ISK on TQ (about what the average player could have earned in an hour) might do that.
Or just get a slow server so the normal showing of 350 will do it?
Or add some thin clients?
Or....?
Also: The term Time dilation comes from Relativity, and there its values is represented by the Greek letter Gamma. It starts at 1.0 and drops as you get close to light speed. CCP Veritas: maybe you should put the value of gamma on the screen somewhere. Have it in percent, 100% normally, and dropping as the server loads up. Going forward, tracking gamma as a function of fight size may be a good metric for the war on lag. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
49
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Posted - 2011.09.09 21:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:[quote=CCP Veritas]How will you get a big blob of lag on Sisi? Ive been in the last few mass tests and there has been some lag, but not that much.
The sane plan is to add in thin clients. The insane plan is to allow time to go past 1x speed.
I haven't decided which is better. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
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Posted - 2011.09.09 21:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:To say what Tippia said in different words...
Most of the things we talk about when we talk about "fixing fleet lag" have to do with increasing the capacity of these fights, that is, the number of players it takes to make the server start exhibiting "lag". Team Gridlock has been at that for over a year now, and have delivered very good results.
Time Dilation does not increase capacity at all. These days we handle about 1000 players (more or less depending on the type of activity being done) before lag starts kicking in. The day after we ship Time Dilation, it'll be exactly the same. The difference is what happens *after* that threshold is passed. Instead of the effects we all know and hate, it'll simply slow the game down until able to cope with the load.
After we ship, we plan to go back to work increasing capacity. These things are not mutually-exclusive. Rather, they're quite complementary.
Why are you wasting resources fixing lag when you should be fixing lag ffs?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
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