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How do you deal with can flippers?

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Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:03:00 - [1] As title says? I'm not used to deal with this and my newly found corp comes into of those scums every now and then. Today someone (out of corp for now-waiting til 24h timer ends)was can flipped in our home system by a Russian in a Merlin. The aggression timer went up, the ignored it. The Merlin came back with a corpmate. Another Merlin. My friend was scrambed in his Hulk. He was tanking them well but then 30min someone else arrives in a BC and pops him. He was not in any way affiliated to the two Merlins attacking (saw the mail) Now I ask... 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor? 2. Had he been in my corp, would all my corp members been able to shoot the aggressor? 3. How can the BC have fired upon him without retaliation from Concord? All this happened in 0.5 system. Thanks for your help! ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Clara Mismer Gulfonodi Industries Shadow Donkeys	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:14:00 - [2] Don't Jet can mine - Problem solved.
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:32:00 - [3] Edited by: Halada on 23/06/2008 02:32:31 On our best day we have 15 Hulks online which mine 7500m3 every 3 mins...... GSC would create more problems than it would solve. Surely there are other ways of discouraging them? ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Sir Que Debitum Naturae Wrath.	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Clara Mismer Don't Jet can mine - Problem solved. Not relivant to his questions at all.
Stanley B Unlimited Horsepower	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:10:00 - [5] uh howbout a pilot or 2 with haulers? pulling the ore out of the jet cans? No i did not read the hole post.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:15:00 - [6] PROBES I first put some lube on them then..... No I probe out a site then farm it for the day. Repeat daily when I wish to mine. Hope that helps more than use a hauling alt. PS you wrote the mining guide so why are you asking us about something you should by heart? Local and Covert cloaking Idea
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit PROBES troll bait It's difficult to understand the rapid growth of pestilence around the EVE-O forums. Trolling, flaming. How delightful! I'm sure the EVE community appreciates your presence and your contribution! So the point of your post was because I wrote a guide I'm suppose to know everything and cannot ask questions? Thanks for the help! ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Sir Que Debitum Naturae Wrath.	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Halada Originally by: Bloody Rabbit PROBES troll bait It's difficult to understand the rapid growth of pestilence around the EVE-O forums. Trolling, flaming. How delightful! I'm sure the EVE community appreciates your presence and your contribution! So the point of your post was because I wrote a guide I'm suppose to know everything and cannot ask questions? Thanks for the help! I love how you can give to the comunity so much, yet they treat you with so little respect Halada. I would answer this question if I had an answer, but I do not. I do not understant the lact of common curtisy on these forums. Especially towards someone who HAS given to to the comunity like yourself.
Stanley B Unlimited Horsepower	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:45:00 - [9] I dont even like Halada and i posted constructively
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Stanley B I dont even like Halada and i posted constructively I wonder why... perhaps we can share what happened under IAC that would explain our dislike of eachother? Stay out of my thread Stanley, I don't appreciate scammers and corp thefts trolling my threads. ★ LSJV now recruiting ★

Castles	Posted - 2008.06.23 04:24:00 - [11] Haven't looked into this for a bit, but here goes... Originally by: Halada 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor?! A) Only the thief is flagged for CONCORDless pvp to the owner of the jet can and his/her gang mates. B) Yes. Originally by: Halada 2. Had he been in my corp, would all my corp members been able to shoot the aggressor?! I think so... However, this doesn't apply to NPC corps, so I'm not sure. Note: in the event of retaliation the can-flipper's corp CANNOT help the lazy bum out... CONCORD will still intervene. Originally by: Halada 3. How can the BC have fired upon him without retaliation from Concord?! Your friend probably messed with a compromised can and was flagged as an ore thief in turn (how ironic), thus making him subject to the same rules -- depends on what you mean when you say he 'ignored' the aggression timer. I just move belts or mine strictly into my hold. The shell game isn't something you wanna play unless you're sure you're ready for pvp. Even then, chances are the flipper et al. have scouted out the possibility for a trap... It's a bad bet whenever someone decides to flip your can. Hope that helps.
Clara Mismer Gulfonodi Industries Shadow Donkeys	Posted - 2008.06.23 04:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Sir Que Originally by: Clara Mismer Don't Jet can mine - Problem solved. Not relivant to his questions at all. The title of the thread is how do you deal with jet can flippers , and that is how I deal with it. His real question is how should his mining ops deal with the problem and that would be the cans are laid down by the tank there and if anyone not known is within 1500 of a can it is not used. the tank removes the materials and makes a new can - to avoid the dual ownership thing happening to a miner.
Stanley B Unlimited Horsepower	Posted - 2008.06.23 04:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Halada Originally by: Stanley B I dont even like Halada and i posted constructively I wonder why... perhaps we can share what happened under IAC that would explain our dislike of eachother? Stay out of my thread Stanley, I don't appreciate scammers and corp thefts trolling my threads. since u brought it up wow, i donate 8b to a station, your ceo sells a aeon i built and takes the 6b profit plus i gave back the 7b u claim i stole and im the bad guy? and what did i scam?
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 05:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Castles Haven't looked into this for a bit, but here goes... Originally by: Halada 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor?! A) Only the thief is flagged for CONCORDless pvp to the owner of the jet can and his/her gang mates. B) Yes. Originally by: Halada 2. Had he been in my corp, would all my corp members been able to shoot the aggressor?! I think so... However, this doesn't apply to NPC corps, so I'm not sure. Note: in the event of retaliation the can-flipper's corp CANNOT help the lazy bum out... CONCORD will still intervene. Originally by: Halada 3. How can the BC have fired upon him without retaliation from Concord?! Your friend probably messed with a compromised can and was flagged as an ore thief in turn (how ironic), thus making him subject to the same rules -- depends on what you mean when you say he 'ignored' the aggression timer. I just move belts or mine strictly into my hold. The shell game isn't something you wanna play unless you're sure you're ready for pvp. Even then, chances are the flipper et al. have scouted out the possibility for a trap... It's a bad bet whenever someone decides to flip your can. Hope that helps. Your input is much appreciated! Thank you very much! ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Arous Drephius	Posted - 2008.06.23 07:39:00 - [15] Take your ore back, or shoot the flippers. Simple.
J nx Glowing Goat	Posted - 2008.06.23 07:39:00 - [16] Edited by: J nx on 23/06/2008 07:44:25 All your questions are answered but i would like to add something. We run into flippers also now and then. Besides hauling the cans with others we also have backup around most of the time to take care of the flippers. 9 out of 10 stay around till you make a move in your barge. Just target them till backup arrives, dont shoot if you are in doubt and don't ever flip back. Just pop a new can when they are gone and take the can later with a hauler. If you flip back the corp can attack you, 15 minutes timer starts again. Your timer to them will run out. The smart ones will wait till this happens so your corpmates can't attack the others and they still have a few mins left, jump in, barge lost. Frigates can be handled pretty easily even by the Hulk pilot alone when he has web and scram fitted with some t2 drones in bay. Be quick on the web before the frigs get up to speed and out of range. Try to watch the speed on it when he gets to your container (put the velocity row on in your overview). Don't forget that once you fired you are a target for that person for 15 minutes so once you killed the frig dock before he comes back in a bigger ship. Dont attack 2 targets at once since the other one can't shoot you. For so far i have run into 2 kinds of flippers. The 'lets try to flip a can' kind of people. They can be handled when you got some skills or a small gang. And the bored ones. Dont mess with them. These are the 'real' deal, players that are looking for some fun. Faction fitted crows and stuff like that are your opponents then. Good luck with the mining. -> Recruiting <-
Gravecall	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:26:00 - [17] Edited by: Gravecall on 23/06/2008 09:31:48 Edited by: Gravecall on 23/06/2008 09:29:30 Edited by: Gravecall on 23/06/2008 09:28:06 Originally by: Castles Haven't looked into this for a bit, but here goes... Originally by: Halada 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor?! A) Only the thief is flagged for CONCORDless pvp to the owner of the jet can and his/her gang mates. Actually it's for corp mates too, the game seems to assume that a jet can belongs to the corp of which the person creating it belongs. Had a problem because of this though a few weeks back where some miners were allowed attack but others weren't as the JC had been launched before they joined the gang, it was also marking one of our haulers as a can thief. As such ganging with them after the fact will not help. :( So everytime a new person joins make sure to clear and destroy the cans and spawn new ones if you want them to be able to help should it come to a fight. As for how to avoid this problem in future you've only a few options: 1. mine to cargo hold only. 2. Only use GSCs not jet cans 3. Have a hauler emptying the can ASAP at all times, leave a bookmark in the can to keep it active but avoid having ore in the can for more than a few seconds at a time as far as possible. Usually 1 hauler per 3-4 covetors/hulks is enough. Pretty much the rule once can flipped is just ignore them and their can and get on with things they're mostly just griefers and get bored when they realise they're not going to get you riled up. Switch to mining to cargo hold only for a bit and you'll usually find that they get in a huff, shoot their can and go away after a few minutes.
Jastra Stardream Research	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:48:00 - [18] I think there are 4 approaches to answer the original post question 1) Dont jetcan mine is actually a serious post, though I understand the issue with volume in this case. 2) Explore for Grav sites and mine those, very much harder for the casual guy in a merlin to find you 3) Smoke 'em - two merlins, presumably you were able to agress them, t2 hammerheads, probably solved - this has lot of potential side issues though 4) Maybe your corp needs a military wing as well :) a few people sitting around protecting you might disuade all but the most determined (and they're gonna get you either way) - this would reduce margins but on balance against the cost of a new hulk might be worth it.
Carmine Morgan The Chaotic Order Void.	Posted - 2008.06.23 10:47:00 - [19] If you seriously want to do Jet-can mining, I'd suggest doing it in mission / grav sites only. There are a lots of missions which have tons of Ore to mine. Mining in mission sites would avoid most of the can flippers.
Gunnar Jochen	Posted - 2008.06.23 11:38:00 - [20] Hey Halada, I mine with 2 hulks and a hauler, between the hulks there is some 15km3 cargo space after crystals are taken into account. I usually use a jetcan and keep the hauler within 1500m to empty immediately. Should there be a flipper around i take the ore back into the hulk hold and/or transfer to hauler and dock. i just shut off strip miners until the thief is bored or i jettison a GSC from the hauler and take it a little slower. Shutting off lasers may mean losing some ore but the thief doesnt get it and thats what counts. the thief usually gets bored after a few mins of seeing nothing happening thus moves on to easier pickings. I've had them hang around for ages directly underneath me so i use the GSC or move away. . Also with 10 combat drones in the hold, deploying them is usually a deterrent for the casual opportunist as i have the hauler fitted with warp scram and one turret too should they be needed. I always dock a.s.a.p. if i have the aggression timer up as you cant be sure there are none of his/her friends around wanting to claim an exhumer. Thanks for the guide btw, excellent info and good work!

Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.23 11:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Halada Originally by: Bloody Rabbit PROBES I first put some lube on them then..... No I probe out a site then farm it for the day. Repeat daily when I wish to mine. Hope that helps more than use a hauling alt. PS you wrote the mining guide so why are you asking us about something you should by heart? It's difficult to understand the rapid growth of pestilence around the EVE-O forums. Trolling, flaming. How delightful! I'm sure the EVE community appreciates your presence and your contribution! So the point of your post was because I wrote a guide I'm suppose to know everything and cannot ask questions? Thanks for the help! Hey *******, I wasn't trolling I was giving good advice. Probe down a site and mine it. As for respect, if I didn't read your guide and like what you did for eve then I wouldn't have shared this with you and your corp. Hope you find what ever it is that you are looking for, but I will go back to my 20 million per hour high sec mining now. Sincerely, Rabbit Local and Covert cloaking Idea
MercenaryMuffin	Posted - 2008.06.23 12:08:00 - [22] So much anger! I thought carebears were supposed to be fwiendly... Also, YAY! Halada is my mining hero. Super-useful guide.
Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2008.06.23 13:04:00 - [23] It does seem curious that someone who wrote one of the best guides out there, and on mining, doesnt know about jet can flipping. But even nuubs quickly learn that the way to deal with jet can flippers is not to jetcan mine. Get a hauler alt to haul the ore in for you, or a corp mate. Problem solved.
BadKarma 4U Phoenix Rising Industries	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:11:00 - [24] First of all, thanks for the guide. I have it printed out and sitting on the desk for quick reference. But, I learned very quickly NOT to mine in jetcan. I use GSC's, lots of them!! It doesn't take long to fill them up with my Rokh and then haul with the Mammoth since I mine alone. With a group, have several haulers running non-stop, and maybe even a couple BC's on overwatch. Had a noob nosing around one of my GSC's the other day, popped out 5 Hammerheads and sent them to orbit this guy. I swear I saw a trail of brown stuff behind him as he shagged out of that system!!!!
MercenaryMuffin	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:48:00 - [25] You can order drones to orbit without firing? Freakin' sweet! I gotta try this out. For the lulz!
Phaige Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:51:00 - [26] I jet mine solo with only one account all the time. Rarely do I have a problem. Mainly because I scout the system where I mine. Make BMs away from the warp in point, check out local before you setup there and see if you have high or low volumes of visitors, or if most of the visitors are also just there to mine. That alone cuts way back on it. Secondly, never try to steal the ore back. So they flip a can on you, big deal! Unless your mining some 0.0 goody there is no way in hell you have enough ISK in Ore in that can to replace the Hulk you put it there with. Cut your loss and move on to a new spot. Heck, you can fill a can in 20mins with a good Hulk set up, so have you really lost enouh to risk that kind of investment? ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Letrange Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:13:00 - [27] how to use GSC with hulks: The trick is to have more haulers you'll need at least 2 (not necessarily big ones in this case). It's a great job to give your newbies. Here's how it works: Hulk (with GSC) flies to mining spot and anchors can and passwords it. He then proceeds to start mining. One of the haulers then proceeds to open access to the GSC and gets ready (the other one can arrive late if he wants). Then as the ores come streaming into the hulk, he transfers what he can to the GSC (which is password protected so the can flippers can't open it). The hauler grabs it as it gets in the can. Eventually as the hauler's hold fills and he takes off for the station. Meanwhile a 2nd hauler continues to empty the can. The number of haulers you'll need and the impact this will have on your mining ops depends on how far the destination station is. It's a little less efficient than jet can mining, but much more secure. It takes good coordination not to end up with over-flow. Now in a normal operation, we've discovered that it pays to have the hulks spread out amongst the belts (to the tune of 3 per belt and if you've got more hulks, they leapfrog belts in a system). However with thieving present, it becomes more efficient to group hulks around the cans (2 or 3 to a can) so they can fill the haulers up faster so there is less loitering at the GSC. Again practice in working together will make the belts fall more quickly. Now obviously this is less efficient than jet can mining. But it is much less exploitable by ore thieves and can flippers. As the organizer of a mining op, you need to analyze your situation and make the appropriate decision on methodologies. Also practice the method to get good at it. This takes much more coordination than your usual operation so vent and or eve-voice is a must.
grokouik Scordite Mining Inc	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Halada Edited by: Halada on 23/06/2008 02:32:31 On our best day we have 15 Hulks online which mine 7500m3 every 3 mins...... GSC would create more problems than it would solve. Surely there are other ways of discouraging them? It is a matter of how power there. Having 15 hulk in he same belt, drones deployed, you should be able to kill easily all "noob can flippers". When someone comes in the belt, check him and his corp and try to see how much a pain he can be or not. Most of the time, I've been surprised at how weak can flippers are. Of course, you could see an older pirate or a well established pirate corp. I tend to leave them the can and either move elsewhere, or ask some of the miners to get their PvP ship that is in the station to put up a fight if protection is needed. Seeing a can flipper can (and should?) slow the mining rate of the op, but should never stop the op. Don't forget, too, that you make not a very tempting target if there is 4-5 half empty jetcans in the belt, but are far more when one comes in a belt with 5-6 cans named "full". Having haulers that don't wait a can to be full to empty it is also a good protection. Grokouik
Jurgen Cartis Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Letrange <An excellent post> This is pretty much the only way to effectively use GSCs in advanced level mining ops. Between the Hulk and GSC you have space for two cycles of ore, this means your haulers really have to be on the ball, as they've got to service each hulk every 6 minutes (or less with gang mods). Cargo rigs will help, but they're expensive to the tune of 100m for a pair, and a truly maxed Hulk still only gets two cycles even with them. Alternatively, you mine where the can flippers aren't. That is to say, avoid hubs, avoid well-traveled systems. Or, mine in missions and gravimetric exploration sites. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Montmorency No Nerdrage	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:48:00 - [30] If a person steals from you, you can abuse him and his corp can do nothing. I personally go with 3 x Strips 1 x EXP Shield Hard 1 x Survey Scan 1 x Small Boost 1 x POINT mwhahahaha 1 x Mining Upgrade 1 x Cap Relay II 5 x Hammer II If a guy trys to can flip me, he gets pointed and abused by drones. I have killed Cruisers and Interceptors aswell as the usual Indy ships with this No Nerdrage CEO



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