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How do you deal with can flippers?

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Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:03:00 - [1] As title says? I'm not used to deal with this and my newly found corp comes into of those scums every now and then. Today someone (out of corp for now-waiting til 24h timer ends)was can flipped in our home system by a Russian in a Merlin. The aggression timer went up, the ignored it. The Merlin came back with a corpmate. Another Merlin. My friend was scrambed in his Hulk. He was tanking them well but then 30min someone else arrives in a BC and pops him. He was not in any way affiliated to the two Merlins attacking (saw the mail) Now I ask... 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor? 2. Had he been in my corp, would all my corp members been able to shoot the aggressor? 3. How can the BC have fired upon him without retaliation from Concord? All this happened in 0.5 system. Thanks for your help! ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Clara Mismer Gulfonodi Industries Shadow Donkeys	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:14:00 - [2] Don't Jet can mine - Problem solved.
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 02:32:00 - [3] Edited by: Halada on 23/06/2008 02:32:31 On our best day we have 15 Hulks online which mine 7500m3 every 3 mins...... GSC would create more problems than it would solve. Surely there are other ways of discouraging them? ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Sir Que Debitum Naturae Wrath.	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Clara Mismer Don't Jet can mine - Problem solved. Not relivant to his questions at all.
Stanley B Unlimited Horsepower	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:10:00 - [5] uh howbout a pilot or 2 with haulers? pulling the ore out of the jet cans? No i did not read the hole post.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:15:00 - [6] PROBES I first put some lube on them then..... No I probe out a site then farm it for the day. Repeat daily when I wish to mine. Hope that helps more than use a hauling alt. PS you wrote the mining guide so why are you asking us about something you should by heart? Local and Covert cloaking Idea
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit PROBES troll bait It's difficult to understand the rapid growth of pestilence around the EVE-O forums. Trolling, flaming. How delightful! I'm sure the EVE community appreciates your presence and your contribution! So the point of your post was because I wrote a guide I'm suppose to know everything and cannot ask questions? Thanks for the help! ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Sir Que Debitum Naturae Wrath.	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Halada Originally by: Bloody Rabbit PROBES troll bait It's difficult to understand the rapid growth of pestilence around the EVE-O forums. Trolling, flaming. How delightful! I'm sure the EVE community appreciates your presence and your contribution! So the point of your post was because I wrote a guide I'm suppose to know everything and cannot ask questions? Thanks for the help! I love how you can give to the comunity so much, yet they treat you with so little respect Halada. I would answer this question if I had an answer, but I do not. I do not understant the lact of common curtisy on these forums. Especially towards someone who HAS given to to the comunity like yourself.
Stanley B Unlimited Horsepower	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:45:00 - [9] I dont even like Halada and i posted constructively
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 03:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Stanley B I dont even like Halada and i posted constructively I wonder why... perhaps we can share what happened under IAC that would explain our dislike of eachother? Stay out of my thread Stanley, I don't appreciate scammers and corp thefts trolling my threads. ★ LSJV now recruiting ★

Castles	Posted - 2008.06.23 04:24:00 - [11] Haven't looked into this for a bit, but here goes... Originally by: Halada 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor?! A) Only the thief is flagged for CONCORDless pvp to the owner of the jet can and his/her gang mates. B) Yes. Originally by: Halada 2. Had he been in my corp, would all my corp members been able to shoot the aggressor?! I think so... However, this doesn't apply to NPC corps, so I'm not sure. Note: in the event of retaliation the can-flipper's corp CANNOT help the lazy bum out... CONCORD will still intervene. Originally by: Halada 3. How can the BC have fired upon him without retaliation from Concord?! Your friend probably messed with a compromised can and was flagged as an ore thief in turn (how ironic), thus making him subject to the same rules -- depends on what you mean when you say he 'ignored' the aggression timer. I just move belts or mine strictly into my hold. The shell game isn't something you wanna play unless you're sure you're ready for pvp. Even then, chances are the flipper et al. have scouted out the possibility for a trap... It's a bad bet whenever someone decides to flip your can. Hope that helps.
Clara Mismer Gulfonodi Industries Shadow Donkeys	Posted - 2008.06.23 04:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Sir Que Originally by: Clara Mismer Don't Jet can mine - Problem solved. Not relivant to his questions at all. The title of the thread is how do you deal with jet can flippers , and that is how I deal with it. His real question is how should his mining ops deal with the problem and that would be the cans are laid down by the tank there and if anyone not known is within 1500 of a can it is not used. the tank removes the materials and makes a new can - to avoid the dual ownership thing happening to a miner.
Stanley B Unlimited Horsepower	Posted - 2008.06.23 04:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Halada Originally by: Stanley B I dont even like Halada and i posted constructively I wonder why... perhaps we can share what happened under IAC that would explain our dislike of eachother? Stay out of my thread Stanley, I don't appreciate scammers and corp thefts trolling my threads. since u brought it up wow, i donate 8b to a station, your ceo sells a aeon i built and takes the 6b profit plus i gave back the 7b u claim i stole and im the bad guy? and what did i scam?
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.23 05:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Castles Haven't looked into this for a bit, but here goes... Originally by: Halada 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor?! A) Only the thief is flagged for CONCORDless pvp to the owner of the jet can and his/her gang mates. B) Yes. Originally by: Halada 2. Had he been in my corp, would all my corp members been able to shoot the aggressor?! I think so... However, this doesn't apply to NPC corps, so I'm not sure. Note: in the event of retaliation the can-flipper's corp CANNOT help the lazy bum out... CONCORD will still intervene. Originally by: Halada 3. How can the BC have fired upon him without retaliation from Concord?! Your friend probably messed with a compromised can and was flagged as an ore thief in turn (how ironic), thus making him subject to the same rules -- depends on what you mean when you say he 'ignored' the aggression timer. I just move belts or mine strictly into my hold. The shell game isn't something you wanna play unless you're sure you're ready for pvp. Even then, chances are the flipper et al. have scouted out the possibility for a trap... It's a bad bet whenever someone decides to flip your can. Hope that helps. Your input is much appreciated! Thank you very much! ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Arous Drephius	Posted - 2008.06.23 07:39:00 - [15] Take your ore back, or shoot the flippers. Simple.
J nx Glowing Goat	Posted - 2008.06.23 07:39:00 - [16] Edited by: J nx on 23/06/2008 07:44:25 All your questions are answered but i would like to add something. We run into flippers also now and then. Besides hauling the cans with others we also have backup around most of the time to take care of the flippers. 9 out of 10 stay around till you make a move in your barge. Just target them till backup arrives, dont shoot if you are in doubt and don't ever flip back. Just pop a new can when they are gone and take the can later with a hauler. If you flip back the corp can attack you, 15 minutes timer starts again. Your timer to them will run out. The smart ones will wait till this happens so your corpmates can't attack the others and they still have a few mins left, jump in, barge lost. Frigates can be handled pretty easily even by the Hulk pilot alone when he has web and scram fitted with some t2 drones in bay. Be quick on the web before the frigs get up to speed and out of range. Try to watch the speed on it when he gets to your container (put the velocity row on in your overview). Don't forget that once you fired you are a target for that person for 15 minutes so once you killed the frig dock before he comes back in a bigger ship. Dont attack 2 targets at once since the other one can't shoot you. For so far i have run into 2 kinds of flippers. The 'lets try to flip a can' kind of people. They can be handled when you got some skills or a small gang. And the bored ones. Dont mess with them. These are the 'real' deal, players that are looking for some fun. Faction fitted crows and stuff like that are your opponents then. Good luck with the mining. -> Recruiting <-
Gravecall	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:26:00 - [17] Edited by: Gravecall on 23/06/2008 09:31:48 Edited by: Gravecall on 23/06/2008 09:29:30 Edited by: Gravecall on 23/06/2008 09:28:06 Originally by: Castles Haven't looked into this for a bit, but here goes... Originally by: Halada 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor?! A) Only the thief is flagged for CONCORDless pvp to the owner of the jet can and his/her gang mates. Actually it's for corp mates too, the game seems to assume that a jet can belongs to the corp of which the person creating it belongs. Had a problem because of this though a few weeks back where some miners were allowed attack but others weren't as the JC had been launched before they joined the gang, it was also marking one of our haulers as a can thief. As such ganging with them after the fact will not help. :( So everytime a new person joins make sure to clear and destroy the cans and spawn new ones if you want them to be able to help should it come to a fight. As for how to avoid this problem in future you've only a few options: 1. mine to cargo hold only. 2. Only use GSCs not jet cans 3. Have a hauler emptying the can ASAP at all times, leave a bookmark in the can to keep it active but avoid having ore in the can for more than a few seconds at a time as far as possible. Usually 1 hauler per 3-4 covetors/hulks is enough. Pretty much the rule once can flipped is just ignore them and their can and get on with things they're mostly just griefers and get bored when they realise they're not going to get you riled up. Switch to mining to cargo hold only for a bit and you'll usually find that they get in a huff, shoot their can and go away after a few minutes.
Jastra Stardream Research	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:48:00 - [18] I think there are 4 approaches to answer the original post question 1) Dont jetcan mine is actually a serious post, though I understand the issue with volume in this case. 2) Explore for Grav sites and mine those, very much harder for the casual guy in a merlin to find you 3) Smoke 'em - two merlins, presumably you were able to agress them, t2 hammerheads, probably solved - this has lot of potential side issues though 4) Maybe your corp needs a military wing as well :) a few people sitting around protecting you might disuade all but the most determined (and they're gonna get you either way) - this would reduce margins but on balance against the cost of a new hulk might be worth it.
Carmine Morgan The Chaotic Order Void.	Posted - 2008.06.23 10:47:00 - [19] If you seriously want to do Jet-can mining, I'd suggest doing it in mission / grav sites only. There are a lots of missions which have tons of Ore to mine. Mining in mission sites would avoid most of the can flippers.
Gunnar Jochen	Posted - 2008.06.23 11:38:00 - [20] Hey Halada, I mine with 2 hulks and a hauler, between the hulks there is some 15km3 cargo space after crystals are taken into account. I usually use a jetcan and keep the hauler within 1500m to empty immediately. Should there be a flipper around i take the ore back into the hulk hold and/or transfer to hauler and dock. i just shut off strip miners until the thief is bored or i jettison a GSC from the hauler and take it a little slower. Shutting off lasers may mean losing some ore but the thief doesnt get it and thats what counts. the thief usually gets bored after a few mins of seeing nothing happening thus moves on to easier pickings. I've had them hang around for ages directly underneath me so i use the GSC or move away. . Also with 10 combat drones in the hold, deploying them is usually a deterrent for the casual opportunist as i have the hauler fitted with warp scram and one turret too should they be needed. I always dock a.s.a.p. if i have the aggression timer up as you cant be sure there are none of his/her friends around wanting to claim an exhumer. Thanks for the guide btw, excellent info and good work!

Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.23 11:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Halada Originally by: Bloody Rabbit PROBES I first put some lube on them then..... No I probe out a site then farm it for the day. Repeat daily when I wish to mine. Hope that helps more than use a hauling alt. PS you wrote the mining guide so why are you asking us about something you should by heart? It's difficult to understand the rapid growth of pestilence around the EVE-O forums. Trolling, flaming. How delightful! I'm sure the EVE community appreciates your presence and your contribution! So the point of your post was because I wrote a guide I'm suppose to know everything and cannot ask questions? Thanks for the help! Hey *******, I wasn't trolling I was giving good advice. Probe down a site and mine it. As for respect, if I didn't read your guide and like what you did for eve then I wouldn't have shared this with you and your corp. Hope you find what ever it is that you are looking for, but I will go back to my 20 million per hour high sec mining now. Sincerely, Rabbit Local and Covert cloaking Idea
MercenaryMuffin	Posted - 2008.06.23 12:08:00 - [22] So much anger! I thought carebears were supposed to be fwiendly... Also, YAY! Halada is my mining hero. Super-useful guide.
Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2008.06.23 13:04:00 - [23] It does seem curious that someone who wrote one of the best guides out there, and on mining, doesnt know about jet can flipping. But even nuubs quickly learn that the way to deal with jet can flippers is not to jetcan mine. Get a hauler alt to haul the ore in for you, or a corp mate. Problem solved.
BadKarma 4U Phoenix Rising Industries	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:11:00 - [24] First of all, thanks for the guide. I have it printed out and sitting on the desk for quick reference. But, I learned very quickly NOT to mine in jetcan. I use GSC's, lots of them!! It doesn't take long to fill them up with my Rokh and then haul with the Mammoth since I mine alone. With a group, have several haulers running non-stop, and maybe even a couple BC's on overwatch. Had a noob nosing around one of my GSC's the other day, popped out 5 Hammerheads and sent them to orbit this guy. I swear I saw a trail of brown stuff behind him as he shagged out of that system!!!!
MercenaryMuffin	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:48:00 - [25] You can order drones to orbit without firing? Freakin' sweet! I gotta try this out. For the lulz!
Phaige Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:51:00 - [26] I jet mine solo with only one account all the time. Rarely do I have a problem. Mainly because I scout the system where I mine. Make BMs away from the warp in point, check out local before you setup there and see if you have high or low volumes of visitors, or if most of the visitors are also just there to mine. That alone cuts way back on it. Secondly, never try to steal the ore back. So they flip a can on you, big deal! Unless your mining some 0.0 goody there is no way in hell you have enough ISK in Ore in that can to replace the Hulk you put it there with. Cut your loss and move on to a new spot. Heck, you can fill a can in 20mins with a good Hulk set up, so have you really lost enouh to risk that kind of investment? ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Letrange Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:13:00 - [27] how to use GSC with hulks: The trick is to have more haulers you'll need at least 2 (not necessarily big ones in this case). It's a great job to give your newbies. Here's how it works: Hulk (with GSC) flies to mining spot and anchors can and passwords it. He then proceeds to start mining. One of the haulers then proceeds to open access to the GSC and gets ready (the other one can arrive late if he wants). Then as the ores come streaming into the hulk, he transfers what he can to the GSC (which is password protected so the can flippers can't open it). The hauler grabs it as it gets in the can. Eventually as the hauler's hold fills and he takes off for the station. Meanwhile a 2nd hauler continues to empty the can. The number of haulers you'll need and the impact this will have on your mining ops depends on how far the destination station is. It's a little less efficient than jet can mining, but much more secure. It takes good coordination not to end up with over-flow. Now in a normal operation, we've discovered that it pays to have the hulks spread out amongst the belts (to the tune of 3 per belt and if you've got more hulks, they leapfrog belts in a system). However with thieving present, it becomes more efficient to group hulks around the cans (2 or 3 to a can) so they can fill the haulers up faster so there is less loitering at the GSC. Again practice in working together will make the belts fall more quickly. Now obviously this is less efficient than jet can mining. But it is much less exploitable by ore thieves and can flippers. As the organizer of a mining op, you need to analyze your situation and make the appropriate decision on methodologies. Also practice the method to get good at it. This takes much more coordination than your usual operation so vent and or eve-voice is a must.
grokouik Scordite Mining Inc	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Halada Edited by: Halada on 23/06/2008 02:32:31 On our best day we have 15 Hulks online which mine 7500m3 every 3 mins...... GSC would create more problems than it would solve. Surely there are other ways of discouraging them? It is a matter of how power there. Having 15 hulk in he same belt, drones deployed, you should be able to kill easily all "noob can flippers". When someone comes in the belt, check him and his corp and try to see how much a pain he can be or not. Most of the time, I've been surprised at how weak can flippers are. Of course, you could see an older pirate or a well established pirate corp. I tend to leave them the can and either move elsewhere, or ask some of the miners to get their PvP ship that is in the station to put up a fight if protection is needed. Seeing a can flipper can (and should?) slow the mining rate of the op, but should never stop the op. Don't forget, too, that you make not a very tempting target if there is 4-5 half empty jetcans in the belt, but are far more when one comes in a belt with 5-6 cans named "full". Having haulers that don't wait a can to be full to empty it is also a good protection. Grokouik
Jurgen Cartis Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Letrange <An excellent post> This is pretty much the only way to effectively use GSCs in advanced level mining ops. Between the Hulk and GSC you have space for two cycles of ore, this means your haulers really have to be on the ball, as they've got to service each hulk every 6 minutes (or less with gang mods). Cargo rigs will help, but they're expensive to the tune of 100m for a pair, and a truly maxed Hulk still only gets two cycles even with them. Alternatively, you mine where the can flippers aren't. That is to say, avoid hubs, avoid well-traveled systems. Or, mine in missions and gravimetric exploration sites. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Montmorency No Nerdrage	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:48:00 - [30] If a person steals from you, you can abuse him and his corp can do nothing. I personally go with 3 x Strips 1 x EXP Shield Hard 1 x Survey Scan 1 x Small Boost 1 x POINT mwhahahaha 1 x Mining Upgrade 1 x Cap Relay II 5 x Hammer II If a guy trys to can flip me, he gets pointed and abused by drones. I have killed Cruisers and Interceptors aswell as the usual Indy ships with this No Nerdrage CEO

Castles	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:00:00 - [31] Originally by: Gravecall ... Actually it's for corp mates too, the game seems to assume that a jet can belongs to the corp of which the person creating it belongs. Had a problem because of this though a few weeks back where some miners were allowed attack but others weren't as the JC had been launched before they joined the gang, it was also marking one of our haulers as a can thief. As such ganging with them after the fact will not help. :( So everytime a new person joins make sure to clear and destroy the cans and spawn new ones if you want them to be able to help should it come to a fight... Thank you for the clarification! I'd say that's a pretty critical point to pay attention to when taking anti-thief measures; inattention to that fact can cost a gang's worth of pvp ships and pride!
Thailo Sappengrel	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:36:00 - [32] my plan for can flippers has worked pretty well so far....i log my first alt (who has a good repair ship) immediately next to where i'm mining, and have another window open with another alt with covops, when someone comes and flips the can, if they're working alone (which most are) they go to grab their hauler, when they leave i flip the can back with the covops, when they return they usually bring a buddy for fire support or whatever, which is fine....usually the people are so dumb they don't check the name on the can that has been flipped back out of their control, and begin firing on my hulk, at which point i log on the rep ship and flip the reps on, and the hulk tanks any damage they might cause, and if they fire on my battleship rep ship (since they have no aggression towards it) they get concorded. i proceed to just mine as normal with the rep ship repping until their counters count the designated minutes, and if they get one shot off past the timer, they get concorded. then i loot their ships and salvage them.
Aleksandr Marc	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Thailo Sappengrel my plan for can flippers has worked pretty well so far....i log my first alt (who has a good repair ship) immediately next to where i'm mining, and have another window open with another alt with covops, when someone comes and flips the can, if they're working alone (which most are) they go to grab their hauler, when they leave i flip the can back with the covops, when they return they usually bring a buddy for fire support or whatever, which is fine....usually the people are so dumb they don't check the name on the can that has been flipped back out of their control, and begin firing on my hulk, at which point i log on the rep ship and flip the reps on, and the hulk tanks any damage they might cause, and if they fire on my battleship rep ship (since they have no aggression towards it) they get concorded. i proceed to just mine as normal with the rep ship repping until their counters count the designated minutes, and if they get one shot off past the timer, they get concorded. then i loot their ships and salvage them. Coming from a can flipper....that's just dirty.
IVeige	Posted - 2008.06.24 02:27:00 - [34] Originally by: Halada Edited by: Halada on 23/06/2008 02:32:31 On our best day we have 15 Hulks online which mine 7500m3 every 3 mins...... GSC would create more problems than it would solve. Surely there are other ways of discouraging them? you wrote a very well mining guide that im sure help every new miner in this game. Thank you for that. Now how to avoid them ; 1- you should avoid tellin on this forum that you mine in group of 15 hulk, you kinda just asking for any ore theive and or, suiciding guy to come for you.. Not to mention the war declaration that migh follow. And jihaswarm if they still doing their... you know stuff. 2- Ore stealers dont like to move, one jump and most of them wont bother you anymore. Find a low populated system 5-10 players in local and you are set. 3- Have your haulers waiting right next to your hulk, and fill them up as soon as you mine the ore. One hauler dedicated to a couple or 3 hulk staying together. 4- have a alt or a friend not a member of your corp cloaked at your belt. Let him create all the cans, as soon as someone steal ore, he get flaged to your friend, who can uncloak and hunt him. You can still continu to mine and your friend get someone to play pew pew with. He doesnt have to be cloak, just have a pew pew ship flying around is sometimes enough to scare them away. 5- Sadly you wont avoid bumpers and getting harrass, try spliting your mining operations into groups, this way its not all your mining operation that get ruined because of one guy.. 6- fit your hulk with t2 drones, if the stealers is in a npc corp, lock and shoot. But once he is dead your mining operation is finish for 15 minutes. So dont wait for him to come back, because he will.. hope this help
Halada Lone Star Joint Venture	Posted - 2008.06.24 03:04:00 - [35] This is gold information! It will be added to the guide version 2.3... I'm already at page 75 Believe it or not I had never lived in empire before now in almost three years, so I'm more knowledgeable on how to support 0.0 logistics for an entire 0.0 alliance to backup a capital program than dealing with can flippers! Thank you all for your help :D Much appreciated! ♥♥♥♥♥ ★ LSJV now recruiting ★
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.24 03:40:00 - [36] As I'm the only one who uses probing to mine then I will link the starting info on it. BTW thanks to RAK for making me look for other ways to mine. Here is the guide I used to get started, Exploration Guide V2.0 Please understand that can flippers are just roaming so if you spend just a little effort to discourage them then they won't bother you or your gang. Also I have found that having a friend who probes to be a great asset when you all need a break from mining. Local and Covert cloaking Idea
IVeige	Posted - 2008.06.24 03:50:00 - [37] could add a other advice : as an empire miners, sometimes your home system will get strip by mining corp or simply other hulk pilots. So moving your mining operation between systems become a requirements. Its nice to have a knowlegde of your surrounding systems, belts, stations. A group of 2-4 systems not far away from each other that you know. Surounding your <home> system. After a while living in one system or moving around the sames systems, you begin to know who live here, who are the miners, mission runners etc. So identify ore theives become pretty easy, and miners tend to help each others. They dont steal other miner work. Show info on anyone enterring system will tell you alot. And once a miners get his ore stolen, he whine in local, tellin to any other miners around who is the bad guy. After that, he wont get anything else in that system.. Your hauler , your hulk, and move to a other one with less player. Not only it make the job of ore stealers way more difficult, but it get rid of them pretty fast too. they want to make isk with less work possible... so make them work for it.
IVeige	Posted - 2008.06.24 03:56:00 - [38] Originally by: Halada This is gold information! It will be added to the guide version 2.3... I'm already at page 75 Believe it or not I had never lived in empire before now in almost three years, so I'm more knowledgeable on how to support 0.0 logistics for an entire 0.0 alliance to backup a capital program than dealing with can flippers! Thank you all for your help :D Much appreciated! ♥♥♥♥♥ you could also try to learn the other way, go steal some ore, join some bad guys and you will learn more stuff
Angel Firecloud	Posted - 2008.06.24 10:16:00 - [39] I have no clue whether someone has said this yet, since I did not read the whole post. It is assumed that gang member can help in a fight against a canflipper. This is not the case. Only the corp members(so not alliance, friends or otherwhise) can kill a flipper. If they do so (in case of the hulk, since he no doubt send his drones to the flipper), they get indeed a 15 minute timer in which the flipper, with his corp can attack the attackers. So always be careful dealing with flippers. Be sure u can take him out and there is no back-up in system. They flip for ur mods, not for ur ore. Boring them usually work. Stop mining, save all the ore u can, leave the flipped cans. And smile nicely to them. They try to provoke u.... just keep smilling. And surprise surprise after 15 minutes they find a victum that will bite.
ellie mayer	Posted - 2008.06.24 10:40:00 - [40] Edited by: ellie mayer on 24/06/2008 10:42:23 Originally by: Huberek Morchu It does seem curious that someone who wrote one of the best guides out there, and on mining, doesnt know about jet can flipping. But even nuubs quickly learn that the way to deal with jet can flippers is not to jetcan mine. Get a hauler alt to haul the ore in for you, or a corp mate. Problem solved. Thought is was fairly well known that charactor was sold a while ago, so this owner not have the knowledge of the origional owner. As for avoiding Flippers it's not too hard, Mine in quiet systems away from mision hubs and starter systems. Get organised with haulers. Rig out Hulks with cargo rigs so if solo mining can hold 17k m3. Don't fall for the flip and agress when it's ovious you will be outgunned, ie if a frig flips then he got something up his sleeve, a ore thief would come back in a hauler, just pop that then dock up straight away. Also like several have said and been flamed for, probe out hidden belts or mine mission belts, safe as can be then.

Jastra Stardream Research	Posted - 2008.06.24 12:07:00 - [41] Originally by: Bloody Rabbit As I'm the only one who uses probing to mine then I will link the starting info on it. BTW thanks to RAK for making me look for other ways to mine. not quite the only one but it proved inefficient for me (thus now training for a hulk ) - there are some nice belts out there if you look, maybe you need an exploration division as well Halada
Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2008.06.24 13:26:00 - [42] Originally by: ellie mayer Edited by: ellie mayer on 24/06/2008 10:42:23 Originally by: Huberek Morchu It does seem curious that someone who wrote one of the best guides out there, and on mining, doesnt know about jet can flipping. But even nuubs quickly learn that the way to deal with jet can flippers is not to jetcan mine. Get a hauler alt to haul the ore in for you, or a corp mate. Problem solved. Thought is was fairly well known that charactor was sold a while ago, so this owner not have the knowledge of the origional owner. As for avoiding Flippers it's not too hard, Mine in quiet systems away from mision hubs and starter systems. Get organised with haulers. Rig out Hulks with cargo rigs so if solo mining can hold 17k m3. Don't fall for the flip and agress when it's ovious you will be outgunned, ie if a frig flips then he got something up his sleeve, a ore thief would come back in a hauler, just pop that then dock up straight away. Also like several have said and been flamed for, probe out hidden belts or mine mission belts, safe as can be then. According to this thread, Halada will never be sold. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=415722&page=1#1
Gabrialle Sunspot Requisitions Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.24 17:41:00 - [43] havent read all the posts but i deal with can flippers in a few ways 1)T2 hammerheads deal with pretty much anything upto a destroyer including T2 frigs though ive never had to deal with an AF 2)have your haulers keep a fitted PvP cruiser/BC in the station theyre hauling to so they can switch over to it if someone suspicious pops in 3)have a dedicated PvPer on hand under cloak at the belt itself (theyll want iskies) or on call running missions those are your options pretty much in order. In any event dock and hide your hulk is worth far more than 27km3 of ore. Once the runnings over add the flippers to your 'i hate you' list possibly the corp as well. Its a good idea to keep certain corps like goonswarm on that list as well as any known pirate corps.
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant	Posted - 2008.06.24 21:57:00 - [44] Kill them.
Divad Ginleek Gateway Industries House of Mercury	Posted - 2008.06.24 23:50:00 - [45] Edited by: Divad Ginleek on 24/06/2008 23:53:32 Have a few bored PVP guys from a different corp tag along. when a can gets flipped. They flip it back so the hauler can take it away and pray the n00b in the frig is stupid enough to fire so they can have their fun. Be sure to record it with some funny music and put it on youtube for all of us to watch =). the other best way to deal with flippers is avoid them altogether. break out your ombey 2d map of your region, and circle all the dead-ends and "off-path" systems. in other words, systems you have to make a conscious effort to fly in to, not just passing through. pirates and flippers are opportunist, if you present the opportunity, they will jump on it. if you remove yourself from the most active systems, then you will most likely never see a flipper again. :edit: some can flippers are actually unfriendly fellow miners that think they can own a system in highsec all by themselves. They flip you hoping to make you leave their belts. A gank raven on an alt might be a good way to take their game to the next level and maybe chase them away instead. Alternatively, you can join an alliance to get intel on the region, and bored PVPers from a different corp all in one package. ::shameless plug:: Evemail Iron Overlord or me for information on the House of Mercury. ::/shameless plug:: ::insert witty signature here::
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.25 00:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Divad Ginleek some can flippers are actually unfriendly fellow miners that think they can own a system in highsec all by themselves. They flip you hoping to make you leave their belts. A gank raven on an alt might be a good way to take their game to the next level and maybe chase them away instead. Shhh don't give it all away. But really some flippers like RAK wanted fights, some want ore. If they flip the can and trash talk you then its a fight and don't bite as they most likely have back up in the other system. And as the video's have shown, a raven is no match to an indy pilot so best not to go down that road. Local and Covert cloaking Idea
Opertone SIEGE.	Posted - 2008.06.25 05:53:00 - [47] i would suggest hiring a bodyguard, he jettisons a can so that the bodyguard gets a flashy can flipper do not jet a can from the Hulk, let someone else jet the can, that someone can also permanently tractor the can with his tractor beam, which will reduce the risk. hire a bodyguard or have your alt/corp member baby sit the mining op, make sure his can gets aggroed to the can flipper... a simple ship like a destroyer can keep frigate flippers away, a brutix or a hurricane can resist a stronger force once the ore contesting starts hulks should leave the area. another strategy... do not store your ore, have it hauled as often as possible, this will involve group efforts as well
Dubh Sidhe Sidhe Industries Aegis Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.25 06:31:00 - [48] I just ignore the buggers. Don't even target them or anything. Worst they can do is waste 20-30 minutes of my time. They flip can, I just kill the strips and wait for them to get bored and move on. If I have to sit for more than 10 minutes, I'll dock up and do some other stuff for a bit. If the flipped can is still there when I go back out, I'll get my hauler alt to grab it up and sit in station or my PoS until the timer runs out. Dubh
HammerBlow	Posted - 2008.06.25 12:19:00 - [49] This has been a very useful post and I have been reading it with interest. However, I have one question that has not been raised, hence answered yet: The statement - My friend was scrambed in his Hulk - Isn't this a hostile act and should incur the wrath of Concord? If so, then the can must have been flipped back by your friend for them to get away with it. This will certainly help me when I come across these type of folk in future so thank you all for the infromation
Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2008.06.25 13:15:00 - [50] Originally by: HammerBlow This has been a very useful post and I have been reading it with interest. However, I have one question that has not been raised, hence answered yet: The statement - My friend was scrambed in his Hulk - Isn't this a hostile act and should incur the wrath of Concord? If so, then the can must have been flipped back by your friend for them to get away with it. This will certainly help me when I come across these type of folk in future so thank you all for the infromation Apparently not. Someone flipped my can yesterday, getting a whole 3km3! I docked, and my buddy who was boosting in a BC got scrammed, but not shot. Seems odd that this shouldnt get someone concorded.

Davich MacGregor Interwarp Plexus Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.06.25 13:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Clara Mismer Don't Jet can mine - Problem solved. signed
Vladimmire	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:00:00 - [52] Drones have been mentioned already a couple of times to take on would be flippers, but everyone has missed thier biggest contribution. When I am on the prowl to flip a few cans, I'll scan down the belts or do a quick run through. If I see T2 damage dealing drones out, I immediately skip that miner. Don't just keep them in your bay, have them out so that they show up on scan. For every flipper you may have to fight with your drones, there are probably 20 who scanned you and passed you by because there are easier fish in the sea. You wouldnt believe how many miners miss this little point. This will protect you from the guys like me in haulers who can make a serious dent in the ore you mined. If its a guy in a frig or destroyer, he cant steal enough volume to matter, just have a corp mate with a cruiser come baby sit for 30 min. Some guy out flippin in a HAC or BS doesnt really care about the ore, he's just bored and wants to kill you, leave any yellow cans alone and go find a new system.
Fitz VonHeise The New Order.	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:47:00 - [53] Originally by: Thailo Sappengrel i log my first alt (who has a good repair ship) immediately next to where i'm mining, and have another window open with another alt with covops, when someone comes and flips the can, if they're working alone (which most are) they go to grab their hauler, when they leave i flip the can back with the covops, when they return they usually bring a buddy for fire support or whatever, which is fine....usually the people are so dumb they don't check the name on the can that has been flipped back out of their control, and begin firing on my hulk, at which point i log on the rep ship and flip the reps on, and the hulk tanks any damage they might cause, and if they fire on my battleship rep ship (since they have no aggression towards it) they get concorded. i proceed to just mine as normal with the rep ship repping until their counters count the designated minutes, and if they get one shot off past the timer, they get concorded. then i loot their ships and salvage them. I really like this plan. You really don't need the covops... just the shield repper. If you have a logistic ship he could cover all of your hulks. I've done this in 0.0 space with a command (vulture) logistics ship to the lone pirate. It is quite funny to see them shooting at the hulk and the shields keep reggining.
Letrange Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.26 19:08:00 - [54] Some problems all the "kill them" crowd are ignoring: Thanks to FW the pool of available pew pew pilots in high sec are all off getting their rocks off flying for the militias. This means the can flippers are actually running into less trouble plying their trade. Getting to the point where a whole bunch of carebears actually have pew pew skills of generalists takes quite a while, and is not always an option. There's also the fact that any pilot in a PvP combat ship is not earning any isk or is seriously diluting the isk being earned by the miners/haulers. This is why better techniques involve not letting it happen in the first place. The isk per pilot slowdown of using an anchored GSC as a transfer system and needing a few more hauler pilots is generally less than keeping anti-can flipper patrols up. There is also the problem that for all intents and purposes, barges being what they are, you don't have time to go switch ships to more pew pew ones and on top of that the can flipper is usually some horribly bored high SP pilot (or anti-social or both) so unless all the miners go switch ships it's a waste of time. The only real time to go after can flippers is once you've identified them and can reasonably predict when and where they will show up, then it's worth setting up an ambush for them. The rest of the time it's usually better to avoid them or use techniques that don't leave them an opening.
Thlad	Posted - 2008.06.26 19:35:00 - [55] I thought the hulk/covert ops/repper ship trick worked like this: (Please correct if I have something wrong on how stealing/being able to attack players in high sec works.) A: Hulk, B: covert ops, C: repper, D: can flipper A+C fleet together 1) A owns can 2) D flips can, A can now attack D 3) D flies off, B flips can, A can attack D, D can attack B (if D can find B) 4) A flips can, A can attack D, D can attack B, B can attack A If the D is stupid and doesn't pay attention (maybe closely named alts to make it more confusing) and assumes A flipped the can back from D, then D will fire on A. But since B did the flipping, this should result in concordoken of D (since A and B aren't in the same fleet). If no B, then A just flips the can back, and C reps him until the timer runs out.
Heavy Mellow	Posted - 2008.06.27 01:01:00 - [56] Hello Halada. There are some punks in this thread not giving you your due so I just want to say thanks for your efforts. Your guide helped me get my initial cash flow rolling when I first started the game and I have since turned it into billions. Cheers! There are some great tips on playing timer games in this thread so I won't bother with that. IMO the best option for solo miners is to dual-box. I know not everyone wants to or has the ability to pay for 2 accounts, but if it is an option for you then it is the easiest way to avoid can-flipping and no one gets bored since you are playing both characters. A hauler alt can be made in 45 minutes by creating an Amarr Soldier, training Amarr Industrial I and buying a bestower. That gives you the most cargo space in the least amount of time. It is only surpassed by the Mammoth @ Minmatar Industrial IV, then the Iteron Mark V @ Gallente Industrial V, and you only need to train 1 rank. The additional benefit of this is that the 2nd account can be used for training different characters like production, pvp, etc. as you've only spent 45 minutes on it. Anyway, you then just have the hauler pull the ore directly from the can and there is never more than 1 unit of something (ammo, veldspar, whatever) in the can for more than a few seconds. If the noob wants to flip your 1 unit of veldspar then that's his problem and you won't have a care in the world. As an additional benefit by having this 2nd character then even a newbie miner, if it was rolled as a prospector, has a couple ranks of Mining Foreman and you gain some additional yield benefits by putting the miner as Squad Commander with the alt hauler as a solitary squad member. For bigger operations the best advice is to have a pvp-capable pilot or pilots available with a ship ready to take action and guard the op. -- Hello, I am Heavy Mellow.
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.06.27 14:09:00 - [57] Edited by: Mara Rinn on 27/06/2008 14:14:10 To avoid can flipping: 1) Mine to jetcan 2) Hauler pilot bookmarks jetcan 3) Hauler pilot drags bookmark to jetcan 4) Jetcan now contains (a) 1 cycle of ore, (b) worthless bookmark 5) Hauler pilot monitors jetcan and drags ore to hauler when it appears When the miner has to move, the hauler pulls the bookmark out of the can - pop! The most you'll lose is 1 cycle of ore and a useless bookmark. In fact, you could set the bookmark to be your hostile POS in the same system. Just in case some can flipper decides to see where the secret treasure is located. This is how I mine with my miner/hauler as two accounts running on the same computer. There is no limit to how many miners I can service in this way, short of filling up the hauler too fast, or not all barges being in range of the one can.
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.06.27 15:43:00 - [58] Players who are dedicated to flipping your can for the profit of your ore are less common than those simply looking for a fight. The most insidious way that flippers flip your can to steal your ore is this, and is probably an exploit. They will use an alt in a noob ship to flip the can, and then a hauler in gang with the noob ship to tractor in the can and steal the ore. All they risk in this case is a free noob ship, as the hauler never touched "your" can. This is a broken system. If they flip your can to start a fight (always assume they did), you are best served to ignore them and move on. Or use one of their tactics back on them and flip the can with an alt of your own or by a friendly player in a noob ship. Never ever flip a can back in your hulk, ever. -- Don't harsh my mellow
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:02:00 - [59] Can flippers are either looking to annoy or earn cash. It doesn't mean you can't have fun too. In my main's corp we have a mining wing, and a mission wing. When not running missions we like to attack can flippers. To have lots of targets mine in an ice system, this gives you two options. 1. Stealth Bombers Lots of fun sitting at 50km with 5 SB's. Frigate aggresses, Hulk grabs a point and web the SB's de-cloak - bye-bye ship. 2. Cheap cruisers We fly caracals and attack any flippers, usually getting good kills. Remember after either of these steps happen, the pilots usually come back in BS,CS,HAC etc, looking for more PVP so you either have to dock the mining group or come back with more firepower, which is what we do. Two days ago two can flippers came back in an Ishtur and a Domi, while we were waiting with 1 Domi,1 Rapier, 2 ravens, 2 NH's, 1 Falcan. The Ishtur got away but the Domi went down fast.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.06.27 17:32:00 - [60] Originally by: Halada As title says? I'm not used to deal with this and my newly found corp comes into of those scums every now and then. Today someone (out of corp for now-waiting til 24h timer ends)was can flipped in our home system by a Russian in a Merlin. The aggression timer went up, the ignored it. The Merlin came back with a corpmate. Another Merlin. My friend was scrambed in his Hulk. He was tanking them well but then 30min someone else arrives in a BC and pops him. He was not in any way affiliated to the two Merlins attacking (saw the mail) Now I ask... 1. how does the aggression timer sharing works? If someone is can flipped, and you fleet with them, can you shoot the aggressor? 2. Had he been in my corp, would all my corp members been able to shoot the aggressor? 3. How can the BC have fired upon him without retaliation from Concord? All this happened in 0.5 system. Thanks for your help! Couple of other comments... 1) If a person flips your can, your CORP can engage, but anyone in your alliance that is in a different corp cannot; even if they are in the same fleet. Sucks. 2) A mining barge should never, ever ever take his ore back. Same reason; their whole corp can shoot back. Only cover/combat ships re-flip the cans. 3) When you have someone lurking around your cans, set their corp's standings to either negative or positive temporarily. That will tell you how many of them are in system and potentially can back him up when you engage. 4) Never underestimate 2 frigates. One can hold you in place long enough for the 2nd to dock, switch ships, come back in a new one and blow you up. Happens all the time. I agree with the other posters on one thing; watch out for bored flippers. They are the ones that will come in cloaked and sit a short distance away and wait for you to fly off to get your hauler. Or they will sit there while you blow their buddy away in his frig and wait for you to re-flip the can. Its a hunt for them, to try and get you to make a mistake so they can pop you. When we run large ops only the cover ships drop cans; mining barges do not. All cover ships are in the same corp in the alliance, the barges don't need to be. No barge re-takes ore, that is the cover ships' job. We normally park one or two BC/CSs at the op running mining links while a couple more "practice" in system somewhere but are ready to respond. Many ripping fights have happened when can flips take place and larger forces come in to be met with larger defending forces. There are also generally congratulations in local afterwards and they rarely come back Ships are lost, but much fun is had by all while the mining barges safely mine their stuff. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.



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