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Zephyr Rengate
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:27:00 -
[31]
TBH if you want to know the truth about vegetarians read Maddox's mission.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I will not liek human meat but the naerest I tried is human chesse. I don't want to tried again ...
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Alice'Dee
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Arvald
Originally by: Alice'Dee Fun Facts
ok not trying to be sarcastic here im actually asking a real question, do plants and grains and such even contain a noticeable amount of protein potassium sodium and all that good stuff the human body needs to survive that is found in meat?
apparently they do as vegetarians seem to not suddenly die off. and concerning proteine this is quoted from the above link:
Quote:
# Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to World Health Organization: 4.5% # Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to Food and Nutrition Board of the U.S.D.A.: 6% # Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to National Research Council: 8% # Percentage of calories as protein in wheat: 17% # Percentage of calories as protein in broccoli: 45% # Percentage of calories as protein in rice: 8%
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Micheal Dietrich
Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:30:00 -
[33]
Hey I'm all for people being vegitarians....more steak for me....
Originally by: El'tar I WOULD WARRIOR FOR WOMAN BELONG TO ME!
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:31:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Arvald
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Isiskhan More fun with street hotdogs and burgers: my uncle has a butchery (as well as a slaughterhouse), and my grandfather used to go visit my cousin sometimes while he worked.
He told me he noticed that while working on a cow carcass to chop all the good parts out if it, my cousin would put all the crap they wouldn't dare show customers in a separate pile (not even offal - which some people do eat), but once he was finished he would pack up this pile instead of throwing it away.
My grandfather asked him why he just didn't throw it away, and my cousin replied that some guy from the city came regularly and bought it to make hotdogs and/or burgers with.
Meh, dont care.... Got a big plate of hotdogs and ill eat every one.
kan ah haz one?
NO!
But you can hear about them.... They are covered in chilly and cheese, and wrapped in bologna and bacon(yes im serious).
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Arvald
Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:38:00 -
[35]
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Arvald
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Isiskhan More fun with street hotdogs and burgers: my uncle has a butchery (as well as a slaughterhouse), and my grandfather used to go visit my cousin sometimes while he worked.
He told me he noticed that while working on a cow carcass to chop all the good parts out if it, my cousin would put all the crap they wouldn't dare show customers in a separate pile (not even offal - which some people do eat), but once he was finished he would pack up this pile instead of throwing it away.
My grandfather asked him why he just didn't throw it away, and my cousin replied that some guy from the city came regularly and bought it to make hotdogs and/or burgers with.
Meh, dont care.... Got a big plate of hotdogs and ill eat every one.
kan ah haz one?
NO!
But you can hear about them.... They are covered in chilly and cheese, and wrapped in bologna and bacon(yes im serious).
oh you bastard. i am so friggin hungry now.......TO ARBYS
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you are paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face) |
Arvald
Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Alice'Dee
Originally by: Arvald
Originally by: Alice'Dee Fun Facts
ok not trying to be sarcastic here im actually asking a real question, do plants and grains and such even contain a noticeable amount of protein potassium sodium and all that good stuff the human body needs to survive that is found in meat?
apparently they do as vegetarians seem to not suddenly die off. and concerning proteine this is quoted from the above link:
Quote:
# Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to World Health Organization: 4.5% # Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to Food and Nutrition Board of the U.S.D.A.: 6% # Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to National Research Council: 8% # Percentage of calories as protein in wheat: 17% # Percentage of calories as protein in broccoli: 45% # Percentage of calories as protein in rice: 8%
ah well i did not know that, but still i likes the taste of a juicy rare cut of beef to much to go vegan
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you are paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face) |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:50:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Arvald ok not trying to be sarcastic here im actually asking a real question, do plants and grains and such even contain a noticeable amount of protein potassium sodium and all that good stuff the human body needs to survive that is found in meat?
It's a common misconception that meat is mostly protein and plants don't contain much protein. A well-balanced diet can easily contain everything the human body needs even if it excludes all animal products. The only exception is possibly vitamin B12 which is normally present in dirt and river water but is removed from our vegetables and water supplies by cleaning and filtration. For that reason, vegans are encouraged to supplement their B12 intake or regularly eat foods fortified with it such as soya milk and breakfast cereals.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Arvald
Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:59:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Arvald ok not trying to be sarcastic here im actually asking a real question, do plants and grains and such even contain a noticeable amount of protein potassium sodium and all that good stuff the human body needs to survive that is found in meat?
It's a common misconception that meat is mostly protein and plants don't contain much protein. A well-balanced diet can easily contain everything the human body needs even if it excludes all animal products. The only exception is possibly vitamin B12 which is normally present in dirt and river water but is removed from our vegetables and water supplies by cleaning and filtration. For that reason, vegans are encouraged to supplement their B12 intake or regularly eat foods fortified with it such as soya milk and breakfast cereals.
cool, thanks for the clarification
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you are paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face) |
Alice'Dee
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Posted - 2008.06.24 18:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Arvald
ah well i did not know that, but still i likes the taste of a juicy rare cut of beef to much to go vegan
tbh i did have a few moments of meat craving in the first two months or so but it went away. also i did not flip my diet from one day to the other as i considered that not a smart thing to do, instead i gradually changed it reducing meat and diary products intake to zero over a longer period.
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Zephyr Rengate
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.24 18:29:00 -
[40]
How can one survive without milk or any dairy products!
MADNESS.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I will not liek human meat but the naerest I tried is human chesse. I don't want to tried again ...
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Bob Stuart
Federation Fleet
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Posted - 2008.06.24 19:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Nyphur The only exception is possibly vitamin B12 which is normally present in dirt and river water but is removed from our vegetables and water supplies by cleaning and filtration. For that reason, vegans are encouraged to supplement their B12 intake.
I read that oralsex is quite good for obtaining vitamin B12. (for men, and lesbeanz anyway, the article did not explain what heterosexual women are expected to do)
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.06.24 20:16:00 -
[42]
Every vegetarian I know, insists their body is in a state of pure nirvana as a result of their diet.
Every vegetarian I know also gets tired faster than I do on a distance run, and I am a chain-smoking out-of-shape alkie. Most of them are gaunt to the point of emaciation, and every single one has 'the vegan smell' - if you hang around vegans any, you probably know what I mean. They don`t smell right.
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nahtoh
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.24 23:51:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Arvald
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Arvald ok not trying to be sarcastic here im actually asking a real question, do plants and grains and such even contain a noticeable amount of protein potassium sodium and all that good stuff the human body needs to survive that is found in meat?
It's a common misconception that meat is mostly protein and plants don't contain much protein. A well-balanced diet can easily contain everything the human body needs even if it excludes all animal products. The only exception is possibly vitamin B12 which is normally present in dirt and river water but is removed from our vegetables and water supplies by cleaning and filtration. For that reason, vegans are encouraged to supplement their B12 intake or regularly eat foods fortified with it such as soya milk and breakfast cereals.
cool, thanks for the clarification
So the answer to your question is basicly no or a maybe but not yes... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.06.25 00:04:00 -
[44]
All the vegetarians I know are forced to down vitamins (I realize this is healthy anyway, but I mean they have to pretty much) and protein supplements
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Isiskhan
Gnostic Misanthropy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 01:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Eternal Error All the vegetarians I know are forced to down vitamins (I realize this is healthy anyway, but I mean they have to pretty much) and protein supplements
I don't know where the hell you people come up with this sort of crap, but for the record, no, you certainly don't need to rely on supplements of any shape or form if you are a vegetarian.
(I'm not speaking for veganism or other sort of more extreme diets - which I know little of).
And I'm speaking out of first hand experience, not just pulling this out of my ass or relying on some third hand anecdote: I've eaten very little meat for the last decade and a half and I'm healthy as a bull. No supplements. And no, I'm certainly not getting tired of it either.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.06.25 02:22:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Nyphur on 25/06/2008 02:27:12
Originally by: Eternal Error All the vegetarians I know are forced to down vitamins (I realize this is healthy anyway, but I mean they have to pretty much) and protein supplements
Some of the world's top athletes are vegan. And for the record, my diet consists mostly of potatoes, bread and the occasional soya product and I'm absolutely healthy. Availability of good soya products varies from country to country but with a well-balanced diet, you really shouldn't ever need to supplement either vitamins or protein. In fact, if you're getting enough food to fill your energy requirements and eat a varied diet with no junk food, it's physically impossible not to meet your protein requirements.
Also, downing lots of vitamin supplements is not healthy. People have this idea that vitamins are good and it can't hurt to have too much but that's not always the case. Most people get everything they need from their food and not only are they wasting their money on supplements but you can actually develop medical complications from overdosing on some vitamins. I once overdosed on potassium from eating a load of bananas when I was little and had the shakes for a few days. My little brother overdosed on vitamin supplements once and suffered withdrawal symptoms that were essentially deficiency of the vitamins he was taking for most of a week.
Originally by: nahtoh So the answer to your question is basicly no or a maybe but not yes...
The answer to his question of whether or not plants and grains contain substantial amounts of the important mineral and vitamin constituents of meat is definitively yes. Ask any qualified nutritionalist. Meat is not some kind of wonder food that contains all the things you need and unless you eat nothing but meat, it's not the sole source of anything in your diet.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Alice'Dee
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Posted - 2008.06.25 07:29:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Every vegetarian I know, insists their body is in a state of pure nirvana as a result of their diet.
Every vegetarian I know also gets tired faster than I do on a distance run, and I am a chain-smoking out-of-shape alkie. Most of them are gaunt to the point of emaciation, and every single one has 'the vegan smell' - if you hang around vegans any, you probably know what I mean. They don`t smell right.
so vegans don't smell right to a chain smoker.. the irony
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Mary Me'Belle
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Posted - 2008.06.25 10:44:00 -
[48]
for tasty filling vegetarian food just look for a good Indian cookbook. Chick peas, potatoes, beans, rice and lentils make good filling food. spices make it tasty.
i have about 4-5 vege meals a week. it's healthy cheap and yummy. although there is a fair bit of cheese as a meat substitute in there. I love meat but it is outrageously expensive here in Switzerland. a good steak from the supermarket will cost you about US$35 a lb or (80CHF/kg)
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Mary Me'Belle for tasty filling vegetarian food just look for a good Indian cookbook. Chick peas, potatoes, beans, rice and lentils make good filling food. spices make it tasty.
i have about 4-5 vege meals a week. it's healthy cheap and yummy. although there is a fair bit of cheese as a meat substitute in there. I love meat but it is outrageously expensive here in Switzerland. a good steak from the supermarket will cost you about US$35 a lb or (80CHF/kg)
Jesus that had better some FANTASTIC steak.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Mary Me'Belle
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:20:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Mary Me''Belle on 25/06/2008 11:20:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mary Me'Belle for tasty filling vegetarian food just look for a good Indian cookbook. Chick peas, potatoes, beans, rice and lentils make good filling food. spices make it tasty.
i have about 4-5 vege meals a week. it's healthy, cheap and yummy. although there is a fair bit of cheese as a meat substitute in there. I love meat but it is outrageously expensive here in Switzerland. a good steak from the supermarket will cost you about US$35 a lb or (80CHF/kg)
Jesus that had better some FANTASTIC steak.
lol, i have no idea, it can't be worth it :P
we go to an Argentinian BBQ restaurant in Germany for a steak fix every now and then. Yes, it is cheaper to go to another country and have someone else cook your steak.
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Cyne Spurr
MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:46:00 -
[51]
The important thing to remember is that vegetarians are not Vegans..and few people are really vegan. I know a few true vegans, and they have to work hard to stick to their lifestyle, the majority of their foods they have to grow themselves and they are still waiting for vegetarian food that does not contain milk or eggs. They are limited in what medical aid they receive and what clothing they wear.
The health factors of such extreme diets are allways going to be caught up in rhetoric and mis-information. A normal vegetarian diet is easy to sustain and can be as healthy as a diet that includes more meat..but then a vegetarian diet is just one end of a sliding scale of food intake, not a clearly defined stand alone diet.
THe problem I have with the fad for "healthy diets" is the overproduction of Soya, which lets be honest..is not a nice plant in the east it is eaten in small amounts, but now it has been adopted by the west it is in everything. And that type of mono-culture diet is bad. There are allready studies linking the increase in Soya in western diets with the increase of allergies in our populations.
And the massive reliance on our allready endangered freshwater supplies. With all the hype over "global warming" people tend to ignore that Water vapour is THE BIGGEST CONTRIBUTOR to global warming, instead we like to focus on co2.. Of course with most the world having to live off of rice, which adds huge amounts of water vapour to the atmosphere, it would not be politic to mention it
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.06.25 13:15:00 -
[52]
I guess it doesn't mean anything, but don't you think it's funny that it's possible to get everything you need from plants, while on the other hand, you probably wouldnt survive that long if you only ate meat?
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.06.25 13:50:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Cyne Spurr The important thing to remember is that vegetarians are not Vegans..and few people are really vegan. I know a few true vegans, and they have to work hard to stick to their lifestyle, the majority of their foods they have to grow themselves and they are still waiting for vegetarian food that does not contain milk or eggs. They are limited in what medical aid they receive and what clothing they wear.
Depending where you live, you could be surprised. There are 5 million vegetarians in the UK and over 1 million vegans. This can largely be attributed to the availability of good food in the UK. Although kudos on making that distinction between vegan and strict vegetarian - being a vegan means using no animal products in anything, even in clothing. You'll find most vegans draw the line at important medical aid. If there's a pill made with gelatine and one made without it, obviously they'd pick the one made without. If it's something like a blood transfusion or surgery they need, you'll struggle to find someone that would refuse it. There really is only so much you can do, animal products are used in everything from construction to electronics.
Originally by: Cyne Spurr There are allready studies linking the increase in Soya in western diets with the increase of allergies in our populations.
The inroduction of soya to western diets has increased average allergy rates because some people are allergic to soya. I've never seen it linked to allergies for other things.
Originally by: Cyne Spurr With all the hype over "global warming" people tend to ignore that Water vapour is THE BIGGEST CONTRIBUTOR to global warming, instead we like to focus on co2..
That's because water vapour is part of the natural water cycle and CO2 levels in the atmosphere are the biggest thing we have dramatically changed in the past few centuries. Increased water vapour in the atmosphere creates increased cloud cover, which in turn reflects more solar radiation away from the planet's surface. It's also naive to think we can change the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere by even 1% by growing plants with high transpiration rates. The water cycle has existed for at least one hundred million years. The worst rice does is increase methane production, which is something cows and people do a lot more of.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Wild Rho
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.06.25 14:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: P'uck I guess it doesn't mean anything, but don't you think it's funny that it's possible to get everything you need from plants, while on the other hand, you probably wouldnt survive that long if you only ate meat?
Not really considering we're omnivores not carnivores.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.06.25 17:54:00 -
[55]
I still think it is, considering we're not really herbivores either. Or did I miss somehting?
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Wild Rho
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.06.25 18:54:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 25/06/2008 19:02:50
Originally by: P'uck I still think it is, considering we're not really herbivores either. Or did I miss somehting?
There is however a good chance we were not too long ago. If I remember my biology right our appendix is basically a vestigial organ from a time when we ate grass, leaves and other rough vegetation so it stands to reason our bodies would be better designed to cope with an all vegetable diet.
It may also be thanks to civilisation (developing technology, trade etc) that makes a pure vegetable diet possible now by granting us access to a much wider range of foods and reducing the physical demands on our bodies (shelter, transport, super markets etc) although I'll admit this part is more just an assumption on my part.
- Edited my response since it didn't really answer the question right.
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Kathryn Dougans
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2008.06.25 19:57:00 -
[57]
lots of animals like birds feed their young on meat (well insects anyway), but when adult don't eat anything like as much meat, sometimes being completely plant eating.
Are humans anything like the same? and thats why we have some meat-eating teeth, but mainly planteating teeth?
i.e. expected to eat meat for a while, so need the canine teeth, but since we only have 4 of them, and many more molar teeth which are more for grinding plants, then adults aren't really expected to eat much meat?
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.06.25 21:16:00 -
[58]
It's true that we can't tolerate large amounts of meat very well in the long term. For example, a plant based diet contains absolutely no dietary cholesterol even if it contains a lot of oil and our bodies are not very good at dealing with large amounts of dietary cholesterol. Natural carnivores have digestive systems that can tolerate either rotting meat or gorge eating as well as bodies that can tolerate high dietary cholesterol. If our dietary cholesterol intake gets too high, we can get life-threatening buildup on artery walls. It was once thought that a blood cholesterol level that was too low would be harmful but this was later disproven. The cholesterol we need is manufactured in the liver, it's the excess from dietary sources that clog up your arteries and can lead to heart attack.
Originally by: Wild Rho It may also be thanks to civilisation (developing technology, trade etc) that makes a pure vegetable diet possible now by granting us access to a much wider range of foods and reducing the physical demands on our bodies (shelter, transport, super markets etc) although I'll admit this part is more just an assumption on my part.
Again, some of the world's top athletes are vegan so it's clearly not about reducing demands on our bodies. In fact, vegan diets are not a relatively new thing, some eastern religions and groups have practiced a vegan way of life for thousands of years. Organisations like the world health organisation even acknowledge that (as someone pointed out earlier) using meat for a large percentage of your caloric intake is not reccomended. I've met a lot of people who think that a diet with no meat in it is automatically nutritionally second-class but there's no basis for that assumption. Our understanding of nutritional science has gotten pretty advanced in recent decades and it has been proven without a doubt that there is nothing you can get from meat that you can't get in a well-balanced plant-based diet. A professional nutritionalist will tell you that.
Something that's only really happened in the past century is that large quantities of meat and other processed foods are now available dirt cheap in the developed world. Historically, meat has always been a luxury item that the rich had a lot of and the poor didn't. A massive study in rural china where this is still true strongly linked rate of animal product consumption to death rates by diseases of affluence. The people there that could afford to eat a lot of meat were well-nourished but tended to die mostly of heart disease, cancer, stroke etc. The poor, in contrast, subsisted on a mostly plant based diet with little meat and despite the environmental factors being the same, their rates of heart disease etc were extremely small.
Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support. |
Alice'Dee
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Posted - 2008.06.25 21:40:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans lots of animals like birds feed their young on meat (well insects anyway), but when adult don't eat anything like as much meat, sometimes being completely plant eating.
Are humans anything like the same? and thats why we have some meat-eating teeth, but mainly planteating teeth?
i.e. expected to eat meat for a while, so need the canine teeth, but since we only have 4 of them, and many more molar teeth which are more for grinding plants, then adults aren't really expected to eat much meat?
when it comes to milk, maybe. babies are fed the mother's milk but humans are the only species that decided to drink other species' milk as adults.
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Wild Rho
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:13:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
i.e. expected to eat meat for a while, so need the canine teeth, but since we only have 4 of them, and many more molar teeth which are more for grinding plants, then adults aren't really expected to eat much meat?
Unlikely when you consider several things... 1) We don't eat meat as babies as we don't have any teeth yet, we take milk. 2) We have both a baby set and adult set of teeth. If we were only meant to eat meat at a very young age the odds are that our adult set would not have some carnivorous teeth. It wouldn't make alot of sense from a natural selection view to maintain a tooth configuration that's only useful for a small portion of our life.
Being omnivorous does not explicitly mean that we can subsist on either an all meat or all plant based diet nor does it mean we our bodies can tolerate both forms of food to equal degrees. We are omnivorous because our bodies are equipped to manage that diet even if we do have a strong herbivorous bias.
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Wild Rho It may also be thanks to civilisation (developing technology, trade etc) that makes a pure vegetable diet possible now by granting us access to a much wider range of foods and reducing the physical demands on our bodies (shelter, transport, super markets etc) although I'll admit this part is more just an assumption on my part.
Again, some of the world's top athletes are vegan so it's clearly not about reducing demands on our bodies.
I disagree with this as I honestly believe that without things such as clothing, heated homes/shelters etc it wouldn't be possible to survive winter months in many temperate and cooler climates without a diet that contained meat as it contains a great deal of fat (both a useful source of energy and a good heat insulator for the human body). Not to mention there is no guarantee that all the necessary food sources would be available in a given location (you mentioned potatoes being part of your diet yet those were originally not native to our country and were infact imported).
I won't pretend that in todays world an all vegetable based diet isn't fine and I'll agree its healthier but its not something I'd personally chose simply because I enjoy meat. I'd rather have an unhealthier and probably shorter life enjoying my food than being healthy but miserable. I don't have a problem with people that chose not to eat meat either, its just the preachy ones that annoy me.
Originally by: Nyphur
Our understanding of nutritional science has gotten pretty advanced in recent decades and it has been proven without a doubt that there is nothing you can get from meat that you can't get in a well-balanced plant-based diet. A professional nutritionalist will tell you that.
I am really shocked this would be considered a revelation when all meat is basically a plant derivative (plants turned into meat through consumption by herbivores and passed up the food chain).
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