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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.17 12:49:00 -
[1]
This is not a (pure) PvP issue
Speaking as a committed carebear with no (current) interest in low sec or 0.0 space, and running blockades:
InstJumps ruin the game in several ways:
1. They are an outright immersion breaker - if I *can* warp to within 0meters of a structure why doesn't the UI let me.
2. They **** up agent missions by making average mission completion times insanely short - making missions impossible to complete by any players that *dont* like abusing exploits.
3. They "cheapen" the process of building ships. Even in save 0.9 space I dont need to trade off cargo space for speed. My slow ass indy can be kitted out for maximum cargo with no change to travel times.
4. They hide other gameplay issues.
4.1 The anger vented by players whenever the possibility of removing insta jump BMs is mentioned doesnt mean we should keep insta jumps - it means that the 15K run to gates is too damned slow.
(The possiblity exists of course that too many players are whiney asses who cant be arsed to reconfigure their indy for speed not cargo.)
4.2 Gate ganking too is not an exuse to keep them. If its too easy to gank people at a gate without insta jump BMs, then some alternate way to discourage gate camping, or to make evading camps easier, needs to be developed.
In conclusion: I agree totally with Viceroy's sentiment that insta BMs must go. If, as a result of their removal, Zombie Inc. ganks me repeatedly - thats fine. CCP will know then they have a balance issue to deal with, and im sure they will.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.17 23:59:00 -
[2]
It doesnt matter is Viceroy wants to PvP at gates. Insta Jump bookmarks are NOT the solution to that problem. They are a horrible hack.
Insta Jumps are basically a great way for people to not-play EVE. They trivialize a whole range of gameplay mechanics. They upset cargo runners, agent missions and PvP.
If any of the "gameplay" reasons for keeping insta jumps are valid, then CCP should just give us a "Warp to 0 km" option on the Warp To menu. If the game is THAT unplayable with MWDs and ABs that no one will tolerate a 15km run to a gate then a 15km run is too damned long.
Insta Jumps have to go. If Gate Camping is an Issue - so be it - CCP will have to fix that. If pilots quit because transit times are too long, then CCP will have to fix that too. With some sort of proper in game mechanic.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.18 14:05:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Deaune
Kill off instajumps, kill of the market.
Simple as, imo. As posted just recently elsewhere, zydrine/megacyte are only truly found deep into 0.0.
Actually that is entirely the POINT of removing insta's.
The economy is based around the assumption that Zydrine and Megacyte are HARD to obtain. Instas are screwing with the value of things in the economy by making hard to obtain exotics relatively abundent.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.18 14:11:00 -
[4]
Here is a scenario to replace insta jumps. While keeping Insta Jumps for those that value them.
Create a new skill called Warp Finesse. Each point in Warp Finesse allows a pilot to add 5 bookmarks to a special folder in People and Places.
Bookmarks in this folder can be trained. Each level these bookmarks is trained too cuts 3km off of a bookmarks minimum distance.
Now - pilots that value insta jumps can have them - by inventing a SIGNIFICANT amount of time training insta jump bookmarks. Pilots that use trained bookmarks to evade blockades would totally have earned the right to do so.
Fully trained, a pilot could only have 25 bookmarks in their "insta" folder - and its very unlikley that all of them will in turn be trained to level V.
Then - automatically bump people out of warp if they approach closer to a than they have trained to.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.18 17:24:00 -
[5]
Edited by: DeFood on 18/05/2004 17:33:51
Originally by: Clyde Barrow
Can one of the 'nerf insta-jumps' brigade answer me one question?
I'm curious to know why you don't camp the jump-in point?
Insta jumps may drop a ship right on top of a gate, but once a ship jumps and appears at the JIP on the other side its a sitting target - especially indies.
Because insta-jumps have little to do with gate camping.
There is something wrong when an Iteron V with all cargo expanders is just as fast as an Iteron V with dual MWDs.
There is something wrong when a Battleship can cover 70 jumps through 0.0 just as fast as an Interceptor.
There is something wrong when mission rewards for agent missions grow smaller and smaller due to insanely fast average mission completion times.
There is something wrong when mission "bonus" times become so short that it is impossible to complete a mission in time for the bonus reward without using BMs.
There is something wrong when a maxed cargo Iteron V can - with relative ease - transport 27Km3 of minerals out of 0.0 right through a blockade just as effectively as an blockade running ship with dual MWDs.
There is something WRONG when theres no local economy because players can afford to travel the 15 odd jumps to find the absolute cheapest price on an item.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.18 18:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cindi
Edited by: Cindi on 18/05/2004 18:18:58
Sorry, but thats utter bullsh!t.
Anyone with half a brain knows the real reason for wanting insta-jumps removed is down to one simple thing.... they p!ss gate campers off.
The "issue" of insta-jumps has got nothing to do with anything but campers and their prey.
Realism, my ass 
hmmm? I am not a gate camper. I have 0 PvP kills on any of my characters, and probably never will.
Insta's are screwing up the non PvP side of this game.
I'll thank you not to start calling people half brained on the forums in the future.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.18 19:22:00 -
[7]
 This is NOT about Piracy!
Sheesh!
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.18 21:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rizmordan Hillgotlieb
Edited by: Rizmordan Hillgotlieb on 18/05/2004 20:56:41
Honestly I don't see ANY good arguement here. Not one - and I read all ten pages!
Thats really cutting there - they way you actually countered the arguments you disagree with.
Quote:
We need to remove ALL coordinate bookmarks. Because instajumps are the exact same as safespots, which are the exact same as...
er, what? I find it somewhat ironic that on the one hand you discard the various arguments on the thread that try to proove why insta BMs are bad - then leap out at us with this statement that inta BMs are exactly the same as any other BM use.
Which I cant counter because you didnt even try an prove that bizarre statement at all!
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 00:05:00 -
[9]
Edited by: DeFood on 19/05/2004 00:08:31
Oh please tell me I *didn't* just see "pirates" lagging connections proposed as a legit tactic to counter insta jumps did I?
--
I'll counter the "why not lurk on the other side with WDs?" question:
Lurking on the other side of a Stargate with WDs does not stop: Agent missions paying low due to low average times, battle ships travelling 30 hops as fast as interceptors, a single homogenous market with no price differentials due to distance, pilots not bothing to fit ships for speed over cargo, or indeed gate camping - whichever side its done - being lame.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 07:10:00 -
[10]
Now that is just lame. I hope the pirates were reported so they can be banned if they havn't been banned already.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 09:18:00 -
[11]
Sure, travelling isn't fun.
Consider though, that perhaps its not meant to be fun.
Perhaps the intention IS that 12 jumps is a days worth of travel.
Perhaps the intention IS that players should not expect to be able to cross from one end of the galaxy to the other in a trivially small amount of time.
CCP made a big universe, not so that we could travel fast from one end to the other, but so that it would feel damn big.
Its bad enough that we have the highways. Insta's too trivialize the size of EvE. Its tiny now.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:13:00 -
[12]
Everyone argues that removing instas *because* <random existing gameplay mechanic would cause failure>
The point is, with the removal of instas there would HAVE to be some balancing aspects:
1. A general way to speed up travel is desirable to keep the universe the same apparent size. If it becoems significantly longer to reach places that players can already reach, then travel is nerfed and players will get ****ed off and leave. You cant in a MMORPG take things away from players. They are a whiney lot and dont accept changes that negatvly effect them even if its something they never should have had and it effects the (inteded) game experience negatively.
2. Other methods to make indies survive gate camps. If instas are the only way to run blockades, and blockades are meant to be runnable, then indies need to be upgraded. Speed, Armor and Shielding could all be loaded on to make hardy indies that are difficult to take down.
I mean, sure, pirates like to blow stuff up. However, the game must be balanced to be fun for both (blockade) pirates and blockade runners. Which means that CCP *must* give sweet loving to indies until a desired % of indies encountering a "reference" blockade escape it one way or another.
That said - as a matter of principal - players should NOT be able to both run a blockade AND totally avoid "combat".
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:00:00 -
[13]
Yes - every day I launch, insta BM out to my favorite belt, and gate camp while mining away.
Too, I perform vicious acts of piracy when I insta from one end of gallente to Caldari space in my Iteron V.
I am particularly merciless, and podkill all come'ers when running kill missions for an agent, using insta's to get to and from the common spawn locations.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: chillz
Killing instas would kill hauling.
Would you ever attempt to haul anything valuable from 0.0 back to Empire in a ship that does 150m/s and takes a couple of minutes to get to warp speed?
Why in the 9 hells would you ever expect to succeed at such a stupid task? That is the whole bloody point. It should - point blank - not be possible to even attempt such utter stupidity.
Lets see. Industrial ships are: 1. Slow, 2. Unarmored, 3. Unarmed.
Clearly CCP intend for industrial pilots to enter and exit 0.0 space with loads of valuable cargo entirely unescorted with low risk.
not.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 15:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Attrael
You want the game to be more real, then fine, let''''s make it more real.
Ah, so you''ve read Chapter 2 : The Strawman Fallacy" in "How to Lie Effectivley" then?
If you have a real argument against removing insta''s feel free to post it. Constructing ridiculous scenarios to shoot down doesn''t cut it.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 17:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: TerminusX
I really have a hard time understanding why people here think the game will be 'better' without instajumps.
1) Instajumps are not 'free' as people imply here. You need a good skilled frigate pirate to make them, and it makes sense that a good pilot with skills and who took the time would be able to match a warp with a gate. If he wants to trade them with freinds/corp mates, that's his perogative.
Hello? What kind of game are we playing here? "skills", such as they are, are "trained" and lost if the clone is not up to date.
2) Who thinks it's a good gaming experience to warp in 15km and slowly meander to gates at 100 m/s? This universe is huge, and people like the fact that it's accessible in still a long, but bearable amount of time. Removing them will make the game extremely tedious again.
By that argument CCP shoudl just put "warp to 0km" on the damned popup menu. There is a ****ing reason CCP designed ships to pop out of warp 15km from a gate, and a reason that CCP only made the ships go 100m/s. The reason is, they WANTED ships to take time to cross the distance. Its the damned design.
3) Mining ops are definitely not without peril. Gate gankers (um.....Zombie?) are sure upset by it, well too bad. We need 3 protectors for a zero space mining op and you still lose ships to unlucky spawns. That statement is ridiculous. There is plenty of peril in mining zero space or for that matter even empire space. Here's an idea....if a mining op is 'jumping' past your blockades, go attack the op. Oh that would take courage...and involve RISK for the pirate...I forgot. Pirates want gimme kills at gates and that is silly.
WTF? CCP gave you a frigate with paper thin armor, that goes at a snails pace. They put in a 15km warp gap between warp exit and a gate, AND THEY HAVNT PUT SENTRIES IN 0.0???
Now, as bloody carebare as I am, why are you so damnjed stupid that you cannot get it through your thick skull that CCP do not inted for you or any independent pilot to have a chance in hell of minign their own Megacyte? WHY? WHY? OH WHY? WHY do you even think for a moment you can?
If CCP wanted independents to be able to mine megacyte - they would put the bloody stuff in 0.1 space or higher. BUT they dont! What does this tell you? The CCP INTEND, YES INTEND that only powerfull alliances get access to the stuff.
Now - I might agree that thats damned stupid and gives too much power to too few players but so bloody what. Its no use complaining. Thats the ****ing design.
Please stop *****ing that you cant get Megacyte, that pirates will camp the damned gates. YES. SO WHAT? DON'T TRY! or, get this - Join an Alliance!
Stop being such a "win button" whynar.
4) Warp core inhibitors were brought into the game for this reason. If you want to gank guys at gates...well there's your tool. Why shouldn't it be hard? Your implication is that bookmarks are so easy to get....that's untrue to begin with. And if you have some patience and time, setting up warp core inhibitors is not rocket science.
Warp Core Inhibitors are not nearly a solution. At best theyre an ugly hack. They dont come close to solving the myriad problems inhenernt in the game due to the availability of insta BMs.
All in all, this thread sounds like a ganker trying to put a spin on things to make Eve just more tedious. There are plenty of opportunities for PvP and pirating that do not involve gates.
Theres also plenty of bloody opportunity fro trade that dont involve YOU expecting easy access to 0.0 space to fetch as much Megacyte as you want.
How about using mods that inhibit warp in battle? That would be a novel idea. That's what we do when we fight pirates, and it tend to work just fine.
How about it indeed. How about equipping MWDs on your damned indy if you want to get someplace fast.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 17:48:00 -
[17]
Puzzler? No.
they put the 15km warp core inhibitor in *because* the dont intend for ship to be able to use insta BMs.
Unfortunately there are:
1. Too many pilots who would outright quit if their ability to insta is removed.
2. Unintended side effects of Warp Core Inhibitors - they inhibit both arrivals AND departures.
3. A non trivial amount of work CCP will need to do to rebalance gate camping.
Yes I know insta BMs will be difficult to remove without causing problems.
I dont have to like them though. Im not going to pretend, and certainly not going to be happy with insta BMs various other changes to the game-as-intended-by-CCP
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.20 08:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Keyes
Just to restate my so far un-countered argumentą
Because your argument is difficult to understand at best, and irrelevent at worst.
Just because there is "work" or "risk" associated with an exploit does not somehow magically transform it into a valid gameplay mechanic.
Plus, insta BMs effect the game in far more many ways that simply allowing blockades to be run in inappropriate ships.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.20 08:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gher
...
I choose to keep BM and Instas in.
They take time to make
They are easily countered (unless your dumb)
They are PART OF THE GAME that makes it less boring
They HELP more than they HURT
END OF STORY
you know - its rather ironic, but almost every non PvP reason you gave in support of BMs I see as a reason to remove them. They definately HURT more than HELP in both PvP and non PvP, in both 0.0 and empire space:
Travel time in Eve SUCKS, this is why Eve is soo Damn time consuming. Travel time in Eve SUCKS, this is why Eve is soo Damn time consuming.
Perhaps you are simply travelling too far.
Our economy is player driven now, the price of everything depends on supplies of rare minerals getting brought into Empire space so we can build crap with it. The prices of mega/zyd high as they were after Castor would SKYROCKET if instas were destroyed.
Yes indeed. So, WHY pray tell did CCP put Mega and Zyn in 0.0 space? Why did they follow up with making Indies have paper thin armor and fly as slow as molasses? Obviously this is because they intended Mega and Zyd to be cheap and freely available in empire space.
NOT.
They reduce my travel time to my agent in half
Agent mission payouts are based on the average time to complete. Thanks for nerfing agent missions.
They help me move from my hq, to the Empire hub system and dock for my trading very quickly and safely.
This is a good thing for the game as a whole why? Clearly CCP want everyone to be able to move around rapidly and with low to no risk.
Most importantly I can move a PVP equiped BS into and around enemy space without a MWD.
Oh? So its a good feature of the game that your PvP equipped BS is just as fast as one equipped for speed? Lamer.
I took the time to set up the insta routes, my enemies can do the exact same to gain the same advantage!
Explain to your friends at a poker game that keeping cards in your sleeve isnt cheating - they can all do it too.
BM's are used a TON in mining operations in 0.0 AND Empire!
Exactly. That should not be possible without support operations.
You know how fast 1 stower can haul ore to a station for a mining opt if he spends the 10 min it takes to setup? Its way worth it!
Yes I do. 1 stower that doesnt bother to equip MWDs - just as many cargo expanders as possible.
BM's are used for hunting grounds! I have as many ship logs and natural NPC hideouts BM'ed as I do insta routes, you can't get rid of BM's it would kill these helpful things!
Insta BM is not the same as BM. Bookmarks are good. Its just their ability to insta that must be removed.
ALl the arguments here have been that this topic is not about PVP/Ganking in 0.0 but mainly about INSTAS/BM's are an exploit? Yet all the answers I have seen in favor of option #1 are PVP related..... there is no good reason to get rid of them other than for PVP purposes!!
I belive I have covered every non PvP option you offered.
BELIEVE it or not some people play this damn game and don't want to PVP at all! What grieving and ganking does is makes those people quit and thus hurts our economy even more.
And why do these non PvPers then expect to travel to 0.0 in safety and comfort? 0.0 space that has been specifically set up by CCP to encourage / allow unlimited PvP?
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.20 09:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gher
Edited by: Gher on 20/05/2004 08:50:23
Also, most of the crap I had to respond to was PVP related. We've already determined that Instas can be easily beaten aka the interceptor and Mobiles( I can teach you how if you don't believe me)
What I want to see in any new response is how INSTAS/BM's HURT EVE in any other way than PVP???
hmmm, try reading the damned tread. I, and many others have already repeated many times for illiterates like yourself the game breaking aspects of insta BMs.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.20 09:17:00 -
[21]
Edited by: DeFood on 20/05/2004 09:30:40
I have a new proposal. Lets keep insta BMs.
However - any ship detected exiting warp < 15km from a large structure - station or stargate - looses rep with the structures owner. Obviously the 15km distance is a legal not technical limit - ships that exit closer are in violation of the law, and liable to cause an accident; potentially damaging either the structure or other ships.
This solution does not take instas away from anyone - it simply discourages their use using a very logical in-game reason.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.20 10:39:00 -
[22]
Morlock
You misunderstand. Insta BMs have to go *because* of the game balance issues they are masking, in addition to the various ways they are stuffing up the game.
Sure, without insta's there will be problems.
Problems travelling long distances. How long a journey should take is something CCP should sort out. They can increase warp speeds and/or drop the default 15km limit to something more reasonable.
Problems with gate ganking: Industrials have been given slow speeds and paper thin armor. If Industrials are meant to be able to run blockades, perhaps CCP shoudl think about giving them armor and enough ECM slots to defend themselves with a reasonable chance of succes at evanding a gate camp.
Problems with the Economy. If CCP do NOT intend for Mega and Zyd to be the exclusive property of large 0.0 alliances, then they should move some of the stuff to higher sec space. For as long as Zyd and Mega remain the sole provisor of 0.0 space its clear that CCP intend that only powerfull alliances can source the stuff.
--
Basically, ALL the possible reasons to keep insta-BMs are statements that the game has glaring imbalances that CCP should endevor to fix anyway.
In return we get:
1. Regional markets.
2. Actual demand for Mega and Zyd.
3. Reasonable agent mission payouts and expected delivery times.
4. An actual reason to trade off speed vs capacity on haulers.
5. An actual reason to trade off speed vs offence on anything else.
--
If you cant deal with the fact that you might have to reduce your cargo capacity and equip some MWDs in order to go fast - maybe you should go and play something else. Something witha big fat win button because clearly you arn't interested in actually working to make an in-game profit.
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