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John Holt
Tovil-Toba's Elite Guard
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: John Holt on 26/06/2008 10:39:02
I have read two articles giving both sides' view of the CSM meeting that just took place in Iceland. The first is the CSM view--read it here. The second is an interview of a CCP representative--read it here.
Assuming you've now read both, what do you think?
I think CCP's view of where CSM should be working and CSM's view of itself are two different things. It appears CSM went in with a list of items the players want fixed (most of which CCP was already aware of and have in the pipeline to fix). CCP wanted to hear from them big ideas of where the game should go next.
I have definite ideas of where I would like to see the game go next. I haven't heard any plans past ambulation yet from CCP. I think its high time to introduce planetary activities to Eve. To begin with, they don't need to be much different than stations. You land at a spaceport and do station type things as well as interacting with the planet itself. I see room for all kinds of businesses players could engage in on planets. Everything from farming to factories to planetary mining (opening up all kinds of new ores and minerals). I see opportunities for players to terraform uninhabited planets and plant colonies there. I see new resources for players to fight over, and new ways that system control can be established. In short, I agree with CCP's view of things--we need big ideas from CSM, not bug fixes.
John Holt
My Personal Eve Site |
LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:52:00 -
[2]
I can agree and appreciate CCP's view on what CSM should bring up.
I think it was inveitable to bring up "smaller" issues in terms of vision. Also, I think the big issue this time, as expressed by several council members(Internet chieftans), was the lack of expectations that CCP has openly set towards the council.
We can hope that people will start thinking "big" after reading the interview with Noah. I urge anybody who has good ideas for where EVE should be heading over the next few years, to post on the assembly hall.
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Ofoz Jackson
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Posted - 2008.06.26 12:43:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: John Holt
Assuming you've now read both, what do you think?
I think it would all depend on which employee they interview regarding what CCP wants from the CSM. Each department head at CCP would probably like to see how players feel about things that department may have control of, not just the future design of the game.
The only thing I don't like is when Noah says "some little niggling UI issues and that kind of stuff" If the players felt it was important enough to talk about then it is not some little niggling issue, whatever the issue might be.
At first I felt that this was nothing but a PR stunt but I still voted. My opinion has changed about the CSM and I hope that the players, the CSM and CCP can work together and really accomplish something.
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Kretin Arnon
Path of the Immortals
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Posted - 2008.06.26 13:09:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Kretin Arnon on 26/06/2008 13:10:22
I think this shows that the usual forum crowd are out of touch with how things work.
They have these illusions that the devs do not read the forums, and because the devs do not post in whine threads they are no aware of the issues. Of course they are aware, I will question your intelligence level if you seriously believe they are not.
You know arguments like "that is not what EVE is about"? With the CSM we, the players, actually have a saying in what EVE is about and where it should go. Not that we can dictate it, but we can inspire the developers with good reason and creativity.
Bickering about the UI or nano-whines are not inspiring at all, contrary it is rather boring because you are already aware of these minor issues, that not even all can agree to is an issue.
Btw. I like the concept ideas for COSMOS 2.0, bring it on.
+--------------------------+
For now I sleep and watch |
Kretin Arnon
Path of the Immortals
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Posted - 2008.06.26 13:13:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kretin Arnon on 26/06/2008 13:16:09
Frankly, I would like to see a lot more discussions on the GSM forums involving topics on these two pages.
Btw. the CSM should have been poking CCP about an update of those pages
+--------------------------+
For now I sleep and watch |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.26 13:24:00 -
[6]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/06/2008 13:25:37
I was really dissapointed to not see my revamp of satation undocking pointed voted into the CSM docutrine. I still believe this was one of the idea that CCP was looking for, a complete rework of something, looking ahead and such.
Even then that idea wasn't very big, but if I had posted about my idea of letting players walk in space well... I think I would of of gotten flamed silly :P
Still I'm going to run next time anyways under this banner of major game changing suggestions to bring to CCP. I believe that the newer players however are where all these idea will come form as even myself as a trhree old player will see old issues before future ideas sometimes :P
However it's important to get the incomming (as in 4-8 month player) players ideas on what direction eve could go after ambulation or within it.
So now that I have a passport I'll be running, and hopefully you guys will see me at the fanfest this year too :) in which maybe I'll run a little campaign booth :P
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Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.06.26 14:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I can agree and appreciate CCP's view on what CSM should bring up.
I think it was inveitable to bring up "smaller" issues in terms of vision. Also, I think the big issue this time, as expressed by several council members(Internet chieftans), was the lack of expectations that CCP has openly set towards the council.
We can hope that people will start thinking "big" after reading the interview with Noah. I urge anybody who has good ideas for where EVE should be heading over the next few years, to post on the assembly hall.
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John Holt
Tovil-Toba's Elite Guard
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Posted - 2008.06.26 14:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I can agree and appreciate CCP's view on what CSM should bring up.
I think it was inveitable to bring up "smaller" issues in terms of vision. Also, I think the big issue this time, as expressed by several council members(Internet chieftans), was the lack of expectations that CCP has openly set towards the council.
We can hope that people will start thinking "big" after reading the interview with Noah. I urge anybody who has good ideas for where EVE should be heading over the next few years, to post on the assembly hall.
Thank you LaVista. I voted for you to be on the council and I believe you guys are going to do a good job. It was inevitable that this thing would start slow, but I believe it will be something big as time goes by.
John Holt
My Personal Eve Site |
ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2008.06.26 14:25:00 -
[9]
Edited by: ToxicFire on 26/06/2008 14:27:11
While press releases (even by actual members of the csm rather than a neutral observer) are all good and well, it is the actual implementation of these which will still prove wether the CSM is actually effective at all or still a pr thing, and tbh Im holding out of any further comment until I see a full list of the minutes from the meeting with CCP.
its always been noted the CCP prefers to take the opinion of the majority rather than the minority which the CSM still is which is why they never solely operate on the forums influence, and the csm is more a representative of the forum population than the in game population.
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Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.26 14:38:00 -
[10]
My big question after reading about CCP's vision for the CSM is how the CSM is supposed to handle making these big-picture suggestions. Should they be issuing a "priority-list"? Looking at that planned features page, it's all well and good to be adding all these cool things to the planned features list, but what it comes down to is which one happens first?
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Sunwillow Auryn
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Posted - 2008.06.26 15:39:00 -
[11]
I was quite disappointed by Noah Ward's interview. To me he seemed to be coming over sometimes as extremely jaded and not at all enthusiastic, and other times as a bit of a pompous ass. I think that giving the CSM no real guidelines in what was expected of them and then to complain about what was delivered is a bit hypocritical. It's like hiring an artist to paint a picture, and when it's finished saying "Oh, you've done it in an Impressionist style, I wanted it Cubist." After all, it would just have taken a one sentence note "By the way guys, we would prefer you to look at big game-changing ideas rather than niggling little things." These presumably are the sweeping plans that (as he was *constantly* reminding the interviewer) take years to implement. I'm sure interest in the CSM would wane if the first delivery of items raised wasn't until 2012.
Fact is though, what was presented was a fairly decent cross section of what the players actually care about (albeit truncated due to time and feasibility constraints). I personally couldn't really care less about faction warfare - its impact on me has been pretty much zero; right now I can't really be bothered with Ambulation - but I don't know enough about it to make an informed decision. However, what I DO care about is how irritating <insert minor UI tweak here> is, because that constantly affects me in game.
Sometimes it's the little things that make your game stand out above the others - it's a dangerous thing for your player base to play the game in spite of reasons X, Y, Z. If their tolerance for those issues is eroded over years of them not being addressed, you've lost a chunk of players because you were so busy focusing on the bigger picture that you let the little things get away unfixed.
But hey, what do I know - I'm not a game designer (at least not a computer game designer, I've done plenty of the pen & paper variety), I'm just someone who has to deal with the end result as a consumer.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.26 17:00:00 -
[12]
I wouldn't get too despondent about that interview. We really did go into the CSM process pretty blind and were making a lot of this stuff up as we went along in a really tight timescale in an environment of immense forum background noise and we still ended up with excellent discussions and great engagement with CCP.
One of the areas we'll definitely improve next time around is simply giving CCP much more advance warning of the agenda items which will let them appropriately categorize the "niggling issues" and "big vision stuff" - many of the small issues just needed a "yes/no/technically impossible" style feedback and didn't need a formal discussion slot on the agenda. I think thats why Noah was saying it was a bit disappointing to see those things taking up face to face time at the cost of the big picture development issues. Next time around we'll still have room for the UI fixes and little things but because we're submitting them well in advance those will probably come back with a simple list of outcome that doesn't really need talking about in depth.
Part of this is a learning process for all of us CSM, and Eve player base too. Going forward from here we're going to be able to give you example ISSUE submission texts (that worked) guidance on what kind of things we can do, what kind of things we can't, and how to effectively word and present the proposals you want going forward.
And end of the day we're going to improve the CSM process for everyone.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.26 20:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I wouldn't get too despondent about that interview. We really did go into the CSM process pretty blind and were making a lot of this stuff up as we went along in a really tight timescale in an environment of immense forum background noise and we still ended up with excellent discussions and great engagement with CCP.
One of the areas we'll definitely improve next time around is simply giving CCP much more advance warning of the agenda items which will let them appropriately categorize the "niggling issues" and "big vision stuff" - many of the small issues just needed a "yes/no/technically impossible" style feedback and didn't need a formal discussion slot on the agenda. I think thats why Noah was saying it was a bit disappointing to see those things taking up face to face time at the cost of the big picture development issues. Next time around we'll still have room for the UI fixes and little things but because we're submitting them well in advance those will probably come back with a simple list of outcome that doesn't really need talking about in depth.
Part of this is a learning process for all of us CSM, and Eve player base too. Going forward from here we're going to be able to give you example ISSUE submission texts (that worked) guidance on what kind of things we can do, what kind of things we can't, and how to effectively word and present the proposals you want going forward.
And end of the day we're going to improve the CSM process for everyone.
And you did a Great job you guys :)
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.06.26 23:06:00 -
[14]
"Little niggling UI things" ... **** you, what do you expect the issues to be? Issues will always be the stuff that you don't fix sometimes for years. Apparently, you're aware that certain aspects of the game are issues, but the fact that we've been complaining about them doesn't mean you'll fix them, and you want us to bring up grander things.
FYFG (fix your game), and we'll talk.
You want the CSM to filter the signal from the noise... they have. Things we've said need attention are the damn signal, not the noise.
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.06.26 23:16:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 26/06/2008 23:17:04
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think thats why Noah was saying it was a bit disappointing to see those things taking up face to face time at the cost of the big picture development issues.
No, he was saying that because pointing out problems with the game in front of the cameras is BAD. He wanted philosophical discussions about game design, which makes CCP look smart and on the cutting edge of game design. He didn't want issues, he wanted CCP to look good on TV.
They are on the cutting edge of game design, btw, but damn it, the bugs and the parts of the game that are crappy just pull them back and annoy us to no end too. Technical prowess doesn't trump lack of polish; dunno why they haven't learned that by now.
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Farrqua
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.27 01:30:00 -
[16]
To be fair, it is a bit tough to get past the minutiae or "niggling" as he puts it when it has been a thorn in the players side for so long. I would wager if we can get a lot of these "niggling" issues out of the way you would see quite a bit of grander ideas. Can't see the forest from the tress, kind of issue.
But CCP has to understand that the first blast for the player base will be the things that we a) have been promised to have been fixed b) do not understand why it can not be fixed because of the lack of communication. (If there is a lack of communication you have a lack of understanding. If we do not understand, how are we to focus on "The Grander Ideas"?)
If CCP would just open up communications a little better, their customers would probably be willing to work on topics on a larger scale.
But overall I am glad to see this happen. It seemed to be a good initial run. I think now the CSM has to look at the suggestions in a different light now. If they viewed our concerns as "niggling" then we have to start being creative.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Farrqua
To be fair, it is a bit tough to get past the minutiae or "niggling" as he puts it when it has been a thorn in the players side for so long. I would wager if we can get a lot of these "niggling" issues out of the way you would see quite a bit of grander ideas. Can't see the forest from the tress, kind of issue.
Agreed, it's hard to look in building up your mansion even higher, grander... when the garden still has yet to be tended. Or the driveway needs repaved, etc...
Polish and clean the house first, before we start making plans on room additions. |
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Asylum
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Posted - 2008.06.27 14:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Agreed, it's hard to look in building up your mansion even higher, grander... when the garden still has yet to be tended. Or the driveway needs repaved, etc...
Polish and clean the house first, before we start making plans on room additions.
This to be Honest, in fact going even further try to build up on poor/buggy foundations and the whole thing could collapse.
Every new expansion introduces more bug and imbalances and these things CCP promise to fix then they sweep them under the carpet with the next "insert big idea here" Expansion and we never see them fixed. building new content over bugs only creates new buggy content. And there is only so much buggy content One can take. We can go and beta test for free if we want bugs why would we pay for the priviledge?
It seems to me that the Real issues and conserns are just "niggly" issues to CCP. But I suppose their record of issue handling/bug fixes already told us that.
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari
Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.06.27 17:09:00 -
[19]
Back in the day when I did martial arts, my instructor used to tell me that the better I wanted to be, the more perfect I needed to be with the basics. He used the analogy of a pyramid - the higher you want to build the pinnacle, the wider the base has to be. Sure, you could have a narrow base, but if you want the thing to stand for five thousand years and more, the fatter and sturdier it needs to be.
Similar thing to this really - before you want to start reaching higher (i.e. lurching from one 'big thing' to the 'next big thing') you need to make sure that the basic code and indeed game mechanics can support what you're trying to do.
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:49:00 -
[20]
Been doing metaphors and fables and hints for the past few years, nothing gets through to them. Not even the frothing at the mouth I've done above. You guys feel free to continue to ever so gently try, shrug.
This is CCP.
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Sunwillow Auryn
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Posted - 2008.06.27 21:15:00 -
[21]
Why should they listen? After all, the whole tone of that interview was that according to Noah, we all know jack about game design - he is the man, the uber authority on the subject, and it's his responsibility to smack down all those upstart youngsters who come bouncing in with enthusiasm and fresh ideas.
I am paraphrasing here - but to be honest, that's the impression the interview gave, and why I called him a pompous ass in my earlier post :)
Personally, I would think it would be better business practise to figure out how to put those fresh ideas into a game without stripping them of their sparkle and shine, otherwise it will just go stale. But I don't earn big bucks as a lead designer, so ... <kow-tows to THE MAN> ... I am not worthy.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2008.06.28 06:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
We can hope that people will start thinking "big" after reading the interview with Noah. I urge anybody who has good ideas for where EVE should be heading over the next few years, to post on the assembly hall.
I think the problem here might be that, as much as I like EVE, there are still way too many problems in the present to be thinking much about the future.
Once they have ironed out all (or at least most) of the current problems, THEN people will start thinking about the future. Seems to me this lead dev seriously underestimates the importance of some of these issues to the players.
Judging by my entire online-gaming experience though, fixing most current issues is wishful thinking as EVERY gaming company seems more interested in creating new issues rather than fixing old ones...
Make suicide ganking more difficult!
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John Holt
Caldari
Tovil-Toba's Elite Guard
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:17:00 -
[23]
Although some of you have made some nice analogies I don't see it as an either/or thing. Overall, I believe CCP addresses bugs and balance issues very well considering the magnitude of the game and the effects that fixes have on everyone. At the same time I want to see the game grow up.
I raised two children. My overall goal was to help them grow up into mature adults. There were "bugs" along the way, and we fixed those we could, but the overall goals was to keep them growing in the right direction. That is the way I see Eve.
John Holt
My Personal Eve Site |
Mazca Lopez
V i r u s
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Posted - 2008.06.28 14:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel
Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 26/06/2008 23:26:02
"Little niggling UI things" ... **** you, what do you expect the issues to be? Issues will always be the stuff that you don't fix sometimes for years. Apparently, you're aware that certain aspects of the game are issues, but the fact that we've been complaining about them doesn't mean you'll fix them, and you want us to bring up grander things.
FYFG (fix your game), and we'll talk.
You want the CSM to filter the signal from the noise... they have. Things we've said need attention are the damn signal, not the noise.
EDIT: I guess now we know how CCP feels about us and our silly issues. You know, the things we've spent the past month or so arguing passionately about.
I had kinda some of those thoughts in a much less blunt, rude and angry fassion
It seems expectations were different from this particular CCP boss. It is always frustrating to be poked about items in your todo pile, or have things added to it even. But my initial thought to it was actually, tough break mate. It seems more of a priority for the community to have a working game with its current features and a few minor addons than it is to get "all against the Joveans" or "planetart veichle race" in 3 to 4 years.
On a good note though it just means that your product is good and we like it alot....
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.06.28 14:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: John Holt
Although some of you have made some nice analogies I don't see it as an either/or thing. Overall, I believe CCP addresses bugs and balance issues very well considering the magnitude of the game and the effects that fixes have on everyone. At the same time I want to see the game grow up.
I raised two children. My overall goal was to help them grow up into mature adults. There were "bugs" along the way, and we fixed those we could, but the overall goals was to keep them growing in the right direction. That is the way I see Eve.
Actually some of us have grand ideas. Many prominent industrialists and traders in the MD forums have posted literally TOMES of grand ideas to take the economy of this game into new areas and directions, expanding it into a REAL sandbox. Allowing both the new player to experience without such high competition barriers like now, and allowing the older player to scale their play so that the time invested allows larger benefits.
....but for those ideas to work, it requires bugs, UI changes, and changes in how the market works.
I've seen grand ideas in the CnP forums, but during the discussion of those ideas, inevitably someone always points out that unless A is fixed, this B will never work right and will only make issues C and D.
Sorry.. the game is pretty ******* grand and wide. It has a metric ton of content that most games can only dream of (seriously think of the scale and the number of items...) but right now it's time to hone down and focus on polish instead of adding content. |
Sarin Adler
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.28 21:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel
Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 26/06/2008 23:17:04
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think thats why Noah was saying it was a bit disappointing to see those things taking up face to face time at the cost of the big picture development issues.
No, he was saying that because pointing out problems with the game in front of the cameras is BAD. He wanted philosophical discussions about game design, which makes CCP look smart and on the cutting edge of game design. He didn't want issues, he wanted CCP to look good on TV.
They are on the cutting edge of game design, btw, but damn it, the bugs and the parts of the game that are crappy just pull them back and annoy us to no end too. Technical prowess doesn't trump lack of polish; dunno why they haven't learned that by now.
This.
Actually I haven't followed much the CSM thingy, just voted and hoped for the best. Some good work has been done. Now I read this interview and got on my nerves really.
Won't start on how inefficient the game industry is and CCP slowness, the all so important burocratic process that grow up with company grow (aka 3 devs doing more than a staff of 300), etc. But please, do you think we are stupid CCP? First fix and improve stuff and then we can talk about grand visions which you will say 'This is a no cause blabla'. |
dropouthighschoolteacher
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Posted - 2008.06.28 23:53:00 -
[27]
Customers: Make the game more polished.
CCP: Lets add more fancy new stuff!
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.29 14:27:00 -
[28]
I am not sure how this interview surprised anyone?
All it is, is validation of the attitude we already knew CCP had. People have been screaming for fixes to the game for years, yet we still get stuff like Faction Warfare shoved down our throat.
From the top down, CCP has no concept of fixing what's broken. From their CEO to their designers, they honestly think focusing on the "big picture" and continuing to build on a buggy and broken foundation is going to get them a winner in the end.
Really, when you think about it, the lag issue is a microcosm of what CCP is about. People have been complaining about the lag issues for a while, and rather than take the straight forward approach to fixing it (rebuilding EVE to have a proper network engine), they feed us grand plans about Infiniband and clearing space trash. They ignore the fact that none of it will matter if the very core of the networking engine isn't fixed.
At some point you just throw up your hands and go "Welp" because it's obvious CCP isn't listening. |
Trupplupagus
Settling Tank
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Posted - 2008.06.29 16:19:00 -
[29]
Originally by: dropouthighschoolteacher
Customers: Make the game more polished.
CCP: Lets add more fancy new stuff! Your opinions are ****- we know what you like in this game better than you do.
fixed. |
Zareph
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.29 16:40:00 -
[30]
Having experience with how to be interviewed for a large corp I must say that this was a pretty crappy interview.
I'm disappointed the first response was 'wow, what a stupid thing to bring up' vs 'wow, we didn't know how badly the UI bothered our player base'
Considering that it was brought up as an issue might say 'oh, this is hosed maybe we should fix it quick because that's easy' vs 'you dumb customers, you brought up something simple'
It's not simple to a lot of us.
If you feel it is simple, and don't want to work on it, that's fine. Don't insult your player base by calling them stupid for bringing something up though.
While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. |
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