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Active Shield Tanking Dead for PvP?

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AnKahn Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:01:00 - [1] I know little about ships I don't fly which are the Raven, Drake, Myrm, and Domi (soon Crow). I know the Slepnier PvPs with and active shield tank but needs a faction booster to really work. The Tempest can active shield tank, debatable on how viable that is. Please give opinions. Active shield tanking seems dead unless ratting or missioning.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:13:00 - [2] Originally by: AnKahn The Tempest can active shield tank, debatable on how viable that is. LOL WUT? It is still viable in small gangs but if you are bringing more than 2 BS to a party you want to start thinking about remote reps and buffers. Also useful for keeping your support alive. Assumption of Risk
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:16:00 - [3] Active shield tanking might still be useful against sentry guns. :) This whole "active shield tanking is dead" thing (for me) came when I spent too much time in 0.0. Lowsec PVP != 0.0 PVP, by leaps and bounds. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:20:00 - [4] Personally I'd say its generally the weaker choice for solo PvP. It's perfectly viable for group and you can get some amazing tanks if you combine active bonuses and implants, etc. For instance a Gist X XL+amp Maelstrom with Crystals being remote shield repped as a baitship. Hoh-lee crap! Speed tanking like today has always been viable. Only rigs have been a boost to speed tanking. The nanofiber has actually been nerfed MULTIPLE times. The nanofiber used to boost agility AND mass if I remember correctly, so some overdrives and nanofibers would get MORE speed. Snakes were an addition but speed tanking has been pretty viable since the beginning people just didn't realize its full potential until certain things happened (nos was nerfed, T2 cruisers were introduced, rigs were introduced, blobs became commonplace, T2 was introduced, WCS were nerfed). So likewise shield tanking is still powerful, especially when bonuses are in place, however it's not the tactic currently being abused and as such your gangmates aren't likely to be fitted to support your shield tank (remote shield reps/cap transfers, tackling for you, etc.) Also if they are you might as well fit to remote rep and have a buffer, then have others active tank you. It's still an active tank, it's just a circle-jerk active tank combined with a passive buffer. By the way, using passive shield hardeners is about the stupidest way to shield tank. Invuln IIs are very much alive! So its still actually an active tank (if it takes any cap at all) IMO. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.06.26 21:51:00 - [5] active shield tanking is not dead. the rokh has a beastly tank and can dish out awesome dps at the same time.
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:00:00 - [6] I wouldn't active tank a blaster rokh, and if you're going torps you'll probly want to augment the crap damage with some neuts. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
FORD ESC0RT State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Corwain I wouldn't active tank a blaster rokh, and if you're going torps you'll probly want to augment the crap damage with some neuts. you can easily tank 1000 dps and do 1000 dps in a rokh
Allestin Villimar Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:36:00 - [8] Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 26/06/2008 22:43:49 Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Originally by: Corwain I wouldn't active tank a blaster rokh, and if you're going torps you'll probly want to augment the crap damage with some neuts. you can easily tank 1000 dps and do 1000 dps in a rokh I'd really like to see that because I've been fiddling around for a while now. Edit: Lemme rephrase, I'd like to see that without spending 4 billion in faction mods. ...in bed.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:53:00 - [9] Active tanking in general is pretty much dead. A 1600mm rolled tungsten plate is 4200 armour, and take 500 powergrid. A LAR II repairs 800 damage/11.25 seconds. Which means the repairer overtakes the plate after 6 cycles - 67.5s. That's a very long time to be taking sustained fire in most PvP engagements. Additionally, your LAR II uses 2000 grid, to the plate's 500, and quite a lot of cap too. Also, buffers scale linearly - 5 ships shooting you, cut away your buffer 5x as fast. An active tank however, will last forever up until your cut off threshold, but once it's exceeded you're rapidly increasing how fast you'll be dead. The cutoff point on most active tanks is 1 gank battleship. (And even that's typically cap injected). -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Neoki Aliastra	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:57:00 - [10] If ya'll had to choose from rokh/raven/hyp/mega for L4's with a possibility of being pvp ganked. which would you choose?

FORD ESC0RT State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.26 23:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Allestin Villimar Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 26/06/2008 22:43:49 Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Originally by: Corwain I wouldn't active tank a blaster rokh, and if you're going torps you'll probly want to augment the crap damage with some neuts. you can easily tank 1000 dps and do 1000 dps in a rokh I'd really like to see that because I've been fiddling around for a while now. Edit: Lemme rephrase, I'd like to see that without spending 4 billion in faction mods. Here, overheat and there you go: [Rokh, Rokh] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II X-Large Shield Booster II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Core Defence Capacitor Sa*uard I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Core Defence Capacitor Sa*uard I Hammerhead II x5
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.26 23:32:00 - [12] I think you've misunderstood 'easily'. Y'see, that fit you've posted seems to need an overheated tank, and you seem to have a short range weapon, with short range ammo, and no MWD. I'm afraid that doesn't meet 'easily' at all. Why? Because your tank is fundamentally finite in duration. Which is basically what a buffer tank is all about - not lasting forever, but lasting long enough to win a fight. With 2 PDS IIs, 3 Invuln IIs, 3 LSE IIs, and 3 core defense field extenders, you could have 176k effective hitpoins - which will be a thousand DPS of tank for nearly 3 minutes, and a peak regen rate of 260. That's fairly near as many injector charges as you can viably carry, and doesn't suffer from collapsing rapidly when you get lit up by _2000_ dps of damage. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.06.26 23:55:00 - [13] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 26/06/2008 23:55:48 Yes, active shield tanking is dead in PvP. Active tanking period is dead in PvP. If you fit a tank at all, you fit a passive buffer tank, and for that, shield >>> armor. Edit: James Lyrus got to it first. What he said is exactly correct.
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.27 00:08:00 - [14] Active tanking is great for 1v1s... but that hardly ever happens in actual combat. Sure a 1000DPS active tank sounds powerful, and it is in a 1v1 situation (not many ships will be able put out enough damage to quickly kill you single handedly). But as soon as you start taking damage from multiple sources, that tank will quickly crumble. In a 5v5 or 10v10 or more scenario, you will be called primary and fired upon by by ALL of the ships on the opposing side. Their combined damage will quickly overwhelm your "nber-tank" and then begin to overflow onto the measly amount of stock HP that you have on your ship, leading you to die rather quickly. If you buffer tank, you will have alot more HP to simply absorb the larger amounts of incomming damage for a much longer period, rather than having to rely on the damage mitigation from an active tank. You are also less reliant on capacitor. The trade off here is in that 1v1 scenario. As the buffer tank is designed to fail after taking a certain amount of damage, it will do so... meanwhile, the active tanking opponent may be able to fully or near fully tank all incomming damage from your single ship. In conclusion, Active tank is good for lower DPS, longer lasting engagements. Buffer HP tank is good for high DPS, short, intense engagements. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Rastigan Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.27 00:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Allestin Villimar Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 26/06/2008 22:43:49 Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Originally by: Corwain I wouldn't active tank a blaster rokh, and if you're going torps you'll probly want to augment the crap damage with some neuts. you can easily tank 1000 dps and do 1000 dps in a rokh I'd really like to see that because I've been fiddling around for a while now. Edit: Lemme rephrase, I'd like to see that without spending 4 billion in faction mods. Its not possible, the fit he listed above is using overloading + no MWD + short range ammo = Fail.. An actively tanked Blaster Rokh isnt bad though, A Maelstrom (Gasp Minmatar BS) Does a better job of the 1000dps tanked/done than the Rokh. 1000 dps is enough to tank a 6-10 man nano/inty gang till your booster charges run out.. Dont discount it vs buffer tanks that quickly..
Norwood Franskly Fleet of the Damned Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.27 02:20:00 - [16] It depends on the situation your getting yourself into. For roaming gangs where your rolling around looking for ganks, expecting to take some fire back but not expecting to be blobbed then active tank is fine, active tank combined with speed setup is even better (Sleipnir ftw)... For fleet fights where you have 2 big blobs facing off you want a buffer tank, as when you get called primary your going to die anyway and you wanna last as long as you can so total HP becomes more important then dps tanked. So I picture it like a sliding scale, the bigger the blob the less effective active tanking.
Allestin Villimar Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2008.06.27 04:10:00 - [17] Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Here, overheat and there you go... No MWD, No web, both of which are vitally necessary for blaster ships. Overheating is also a bad way to go. Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's going to be effective or even feasible. And that certainly isn't "easily". ...in bed.
ZW Dewitt	Posted - 2008.06.27 04:49:00 - [18] Active ~~shield~~ tanking seems dead unless ratting or missioning.
AnKahn Caldari Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.06.27 14:15:00 - [19] Edited by: AnKahn on 27/06/2008 14:19:28 Thanks guys, Some very nice nuggets in here. If buffer shield tanking >>> buffer armor tanking, and agility/speed/mass is an obvious reason combined with "hit points are hit points" plus the generally higher resists you can achieve with shields. then this is something to think about (and adjust skill training accordingly). Again, thanks. Ninja typo edit AND request to feel free to correct me if I misunderstood some of the conclusions above. I think that the better bonused guns come with ships that naturally armor tank so perhaps the BALANCE is between gank and tank.
Hannobaal Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.27 14:35:00 - [20] Edited by: Hannobaal on 27/06/2008 14:35:01 Originally by: Allestin Villimar Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Here, overheat and there you go... No MWD, No web, both of which are vitally necessary for blaster ships. With the Rokh it's not too much of an issue if he was using Null ammo. Because then it can hit pretty much out to warp disruption range, so it doesn't really need to close range in many situations. -------------------------- recruit me

Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:21:00 - [21] Well, if a bit under 1k DPS and 500 DPS tank (nonoverloaded, 1130 DPS and 750 DPS tank when overloaded) with tackle would do, go for Raven. 6siege2 2200mm AC2 XL SB2 heavy cap booster 2 scram + web 2invu2 2BCU2 PDS2 DC2 co-proc2 anti-EM rig core defense capacitor sa**uard core defense operational solidifier 2large painter drone, 2*Hammerhead2, Hobgoblin2. I'd probably replace the damage drones with ECM drones, though. It's missing a MWD, but with 30km range with torps, it is semi-ok. If you have to fly a solo BS, fly a Raven. -- Gradient forum
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:38:00 - [22] Active Tanking is not "dead" per se - it it has just fallen out of style. The problem basically amounts to the fact that once your ship is likely to absorb significantly more DPS than they can tank you rapidly approach the point at which buffer tanking is more effecient at keeping you alive longer. This is very common in 0.0 where combat in all it's forms generally involves getting hit with several ships worth of firepower. In a 1V1 fight, often an active tank is the better option if you can sustain the tank at fairly high effeciency. For a shield tank this generally means 3 slots are given to active tanking (booster, amp and cap injector), which will significantly harm your EHP ratings. It gets even more wacky when it comes to high damage close range fits. The Drake is an obvious choice - once outfitted with a set of Heavy Assault Missile launchers and a MWD a Drake will find it's quite impossible to fit a true active tank (or a true passive tank) and as such relies on high EHP to see it though a battle. Often PVP fit ships simply do not have enough slots to make an active tank worthwhile once you give up slots for mobility and tackle.
Tappits Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.07.01 21:23:00 - [23] Active tanking is not dead at all HP tanks are ok but 1v1 if you cannot out dps there tank (shield tanking ships can do this easy ) then your dead. Having an slave implanted faction fitted abadden alt my self for lol empire solo wardecs I have found that HP tanks can be veryà wellà. bad if who ever your fighting knows what your flying (after 1st engagement) its very easy to counter. And to beat them you donÆt need uber DPS just a very good tank. (Never really won a 1v1 with it without having to cheat and log another alt on to rep and save it) I have seen lots of vids with semi HP tanked with a repper works very well But some things are just better at somethingÆs than others (navythron HP tank > active) And eve is a lot harder than what it looks like on the vids you see always remember that
easei AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.07.01 22:12:00 - [24] Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Here, overheat and there you go: [Rokh, Rokh] X-Large Shield Booster II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Erm. Don't SBA's break the second you overheat them because they have a 100% overheat damage penalty?
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.07.01 23:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Merin Ryskin .... you fit a passive buffer tank, and for that, shield >>> armor. Can you explain this a bit? I read the opposite on other threads more often. So how?
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.07.01 23:40:00 - [26] I still dont get why people say active tanking is dead every ship I fly is active tanked, my mega, my rokh, my geddon....TBH, I would only really passive tank a couple ships.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.07.01 23:55:00 - [27] Originally by: Denuo Secus Originally by: Merin Ryskin .... you fit a passive buffer tank, and for that, shield >>> armor. Can you explain this a bit? I read the opposite on other threads more often. So how? Shield buffer tank = low slots free for damage and fitting mods, no speed reduction from plates/rigs, and passive regen (it adds a bit to your tank, but more importantly means you don't have to fit a rep and/or dock in station to repair your tank after the fight). The "lack of tackle" problem really isn't one, since the good buffer tanking ships can fit MWD/point without any problems, and fitting your own tackle is less important in a gang with dedicated tacklers.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.07.02 00:37:00 - [28] From a Caldari point of view, active tanking is made tricky by a general lack of PG and medslots.


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