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FOG OF WAR û Needed in EVE

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Jayad	Posted - 2004.05.17 12:39:00 - [1] Serious Economic Problem: When Shiva is out I can only foresee alliance corporations setting up (modular stations) due to major control of all 0.0 space. Unfortunately empire corps and new player corps are increasingly feeling impotent in the current ôeve economic climateö, (I have spoken to others outside my corp on this matter, most who want to experience 0.0 space concur). IÆm not suggesting that empire corps should always group up and take on an alliance, rather give these corps the ability to operate incognito without immediate detection. One obvious solution to alleviate the hasty pressure from alliances is to provide a FOG OF WAR, can be easily achieved by degrading the map to not scan 0.0 space.
Jayad	Posted - 2004.05.17 12:40:00 - [2] Our corp: My corporation may want to set up a base somewhere in 0.0 space, however weÆve had several group meetings but all come to the resentful conclusion that this would become a wasted endeavour (if it cant last longer than a week), we would be happy with a week, but not one night. We are about 20 active members struggling for any worth while game play, most of our members cant afford pvp, resulting in all our experienced players fumbling about helping fledgling members (I enjoy helping but results in a stagnant corporation). We have done and continue to try 0.0 operations, but our patience with the ridiculous game mechanics is wearing thin. Sorry if thatÆs come across angry but, we have put so much effort into 0.0 just to see our months of preparation (demolished in one night because we make a blob on the map). ItÆs a cycle HIVE has gotten used to, Phase 1, two months of empire mining to put together a 0.0 task force, Phase 2, wait for the couple of hours it takes to get detected. We have cycled through this about 3 times now. And this is in CFS space (If there is an easier region please let me know)
Sardau Kar	Posted - 2004.05.17 12:45:00 - [3] Totally agree.I think the idea of the blobs on map is silly since you can easily see the thing coming.If not remove the blobs altogether,make some sort of jammer that disrupts the signals on that system and doesnt let the global map see it.
Artean	Posted - 2004.05.17 12:51:00 - [4] ..or a binary answer, either: "peeps in solar system", or "no peeps in solar system". I.e. not revealing how many pilots currently in a system. ........ There is a fine line between gate camping and just standing by a gate, looking like an idiot...
Arud	Posted - 2004.05.17 12:55:00 - [5] I think that the map in 0.0 is vital, flying blind is just scary dumb. What I would propose is that when in 0.0 you can only see the number of players in your constilation, and then exact numbers +- some percentage to give randomnes. Plus if you are in a border system to another constilation you can also see that one. That way you cant run into a total surprise 20+ ship gangfest at constilation points. Corps should then be able to build relay stations that allow corp members who are not near it to see the number of players in that system. This could also be done so that when a corp puts a relay station down in space it can allow other alliance members to use it as well. That way big alliances will put relay stations all over the place to see and they will also have a job of hunting them down to mask their fleets. This could also be like this. Players can just see number of players 2 jumps around them. Corps can like before put relay stations to see whole constilations. That would improve the value of relay stations alot so people wouldnt just put alt characters all over the place. Would be great to get some response for this idea. Better if ccp responded
F4ze	Posted - 2004.05.17 12:55:00 - [6] Here is how my corporation went from empire to 0.0 space: I joined the game in october last year when we were still based in empire. In the beginning I did agent missions, some mining, saving for my very first thorax, .... After a while (just before castor patch in december) we started moving into 0.1-0.4 space. The ores were a bit more profitable and we suffered the occasional loss from a pirate. At that time I used to do a lot of hunting in Aring and some mining in Keri and Korridi (look it up on the map if you don't know where those are). And then we recruited a new member into our corporation who was far from satisfied with the current cashflow in our corporation. So he started scouting allover the universe for nice ores to mine with not too much danger. This took him at least 2 weeks and lots of shuttles before he found a sweet spot: Y9G-KS in Syndicate region + neighbouring systems. We mined crokite with a refinery 1 jump away and we got rich in no-time. Battleships were within hands reach. After that, the situation changed: due to multiple factors Y9G became too crowded to make a profit, and it attracted pirates like the D.N.A. corporation. An alliance of locals was set up, Solitude Empire, to protect ourselves and our interests. Too bad most of the members were a bit too newbie-ish to be effective, and my corporation moved even further into 0.0 space and joined up with the JQ Alliance. Moral of the story: Don't expect it to go easy, try to make friends, preferably veteran players with pvp experience, find a pocket in space to call your own....and insure your ships! Good luck!
Deirdre Skye	Posted - 2004.05.17 12:58:00 - [7] Adding fog of war will benefit Alliance Corps since they can see many systems due to large defence channels on TS and PW protected channels in game.
CKOZUK	Posted - 2004.05.17 13:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Deirdre Skye Adding fog of war will benefit Alliance Corps since they can see many systems due to large defence channels on TS and PW protected channels in game. But they can already see it without fog of war so would be no real benefit. AS for 0.0 mining try and join an alliance thats your best way to mine in 0.0 succesfully and will also bring in more content to your game play. The above text is my own views which may not represent my corps views.
Jayad	Posted - 2004.05.17 13:10:00 - [9] Quote: What I would propose is that when in 0.0 you can only see the number of players in your constilation, and then exact numbers +- some percentage to give randomnes. Plus if you are in a border system to another constilation you can also see that one. That way you cant run into a total surprise 20+ ship gangfest at constilation points. Corps should then be able to build relay stations that allow corp members who are not near it to see the number of players in that system. This could also be done so that when a corp puts a relay station down in space it can allow other alliance members to use it as well. That way big alliances will put relay stations all over the place to see and they will also have a job of hunting them down to mask their fleets. This could also be like this. Players can just see number of players 2 jumps around them. Corps can like before put relay stations to see whole constilations. That would improve the value of relay stations alot so people wouldnt just put alt characters all over the place. I wouldnt mind that compromise. anything to help Quote: Moral of the story: Don't expect it to go easy, try to make friends, preferably veteran players with pvp experience, find a pocket in space to call your own....and insure your ships! Good luck! i understand what your saying and btw im pleased your corporation managed to find a niche after some torment. Im just bemused that there is almost no way to make something of valuable game time other than to join an alliance.
wayz	Posted - 2004.05.17 13:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Jayad Our corp: My corporation may want to set up a base somewhere in 0.0 space, however weÆve had several group meetings but all come to the resentful conclusion that this would become a wasted endeavour (if it cant last longer than a week), we would be happy with a week, but not one night. We are about 20 active members struggling for any worth while game play, most of our members cant afford pvp, resulting in all our experienced players fumbling about helping fledgling members (I enjoy helping but results in a stagnant corporation). We have done and continue to try 0.0 operations, but our patience with the ridiculous game mechanics is wearing thin. Sorry if thatÆs come across angry but, we have put so much effort into 0.0 just to see our months of preparation (demolished in one night because we make a blob on the map). ItÆs a cycle HIVE has gotten used to, Phase 1, two months of empire mining to put together a 0.0 task force, Phase 2, wait for the couple of hours it takes to get detected. We have cycled through this about 3 times now. And this is in CFS space (If there is an easier region please let me know) Well if you cant afford pvp how can you possibly afford to build a modular outpost???? This is the kind of thing CCP has purposely done to make corps re-think the way they work. The whole idea behind these stations is that they will belong to corps who have basty amounts of money and resources and will force big corps to look after their members to make sure there is always a defence that can be called in at a moments notice. The outpost idea is pretty much centered around PVP, just think of them as tactical resources in a big game of conquest. Not to mention if you guys do get the funds it would take to build a station then I'm sure some alliance would welcome you The best way for a corp to become great is as follows assuming the corp Core members are dedicated and its the kind of corp people want to join. 1: build up resources, train your gunners, get battleships 2: join an alliance, and put your battleship guys in 0.0 mining ore while keeping a cycle going in empire to get your noobs into batleships and 0.0 ready 3: as your corps presence in 0.0 grows so will your influence in the alliance you are in 4: Sooner or later if all has gone to plan you will be one of the alliance directors 5: When you feel the surge of supreme power and influence running through your veins you can pretty much do whatever takes your fancy from there. EVE is largely liek civilisation in a way. The better at dimplmacy you corp is the easier you will find it to rise to power, but unlike civ gun rushes never work lol - be good at building and organising your corp - join an alliance - whatever you do pick the right alliance and dont get labeled as a pirate corp - the universe is your oyster Wayz: cmon X hurry up I aint got all day! Twisted Xistance: oh yeah lol.... anyway, you have got all day you benefit scrounging jobbless schmoe! Wayz: too chey :)
Jayad	Posted - 2004.05.17 13:34:00 - [11] wayz, we do have an excellent team spirit, managing corp mines we dont find difficult. Our biggest 0.0 attempt consisted of 4 battleships, and several cruisers, we did bring back some Crokite and Bistot to our delight. The last day of our two day occupation ended in ruins. Our blob was detected, we got jumped and lost all battleships bar one, at least a few cruisers escaped. Luckily the resources we mined contributed to replacing half of our fleet. We have tried twice since then, but our lack of players means we run more then mine. This happened just after Christmas 2003 And we use: Insta-jumps Safe locations (300 AU from nearest solar system body) Defensive setups on ships (warp stabilisers) Haul during (ffs of peak hours) for additional safety Perhaps your right, just join an alliance, get it done and dusted. I hope we are what they're looking for: 1) 6 active members of high experiance 2) 14 active members of medium to low experiance 3) 80% of members willing to contribute defence of friendly teritory.
Manfred Doomhammer	Posted - 2004.05.17 13:42:00 - [12] Edited by: Manfred Doomhammer on 17/05/2004 13:44:23 well.. the show pilots in space feature is lagged/bugged anyways.. so why not do nearly everyone a favour and take it out completely?? at least it should go for non-empire 0.0 space. concord doesnt have a buisness there, so it shouldnt share any surveilance from there. fullstop and while at it, the same should be done for pilots docked and after all these are done, something can be thought up for the local channel... nowadays, scouts are nearly obsolete... you got the blobs on the map for long range surveilance, and you got local channel to identify any threats in the system. yawn time someting is done about these spoilers. ---- Manfred Doomhammer Fleet Admiral CEO ShadowTec Inc.
Burga Galti	Posted - 2004.05.17 13:46:00 - [13] It is a bit strange that the only way to get ahead in the game is to join an alliance (which for the record seem to cover more space than most NPC empires). 0.0 shouldn't be without risk, but the benefits of a nerfed map would seem to outweigh the negatives. PROS: Smaller corps could branch out into alliance territory Alliances would have to patrol space Scouts would have a better sense of purpose Blob wars would be reduced More conflict over claimed regions Piracy would become more than just 'gamecamp -> gank -> repeat' Anti-piracy would become more than just 'gatecamp -> gank -> repeat' CONS: Alliances will shrink due to lack of control Piracy will become more rampant (but then isn't that the point of 0.0) More organisation will be required by alliances (possibly solution = megacorps) Tales from the EVE Cluster
Miso	Posted - 2004.05.17 13:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer well.. the show pilots in space feature is lagged/bugged anyways.. so why not do nearly everyone a favour and take it out completely?? God, this so needs to happen. I hate the pilots in space map blobs. Would make travelling more fun and PvP more interesting. -------------------------------------------- Dead
Kulath	Posted - 2004.05.17 14:06:00 - [15] I agree, would make it more interesting not being completely sure what's in front you. But also see the potential problems. Like the idea of only being able to scan the constellation your in. In fact could do this with a skill, Long Range Scanners. Would allow people with greater skill to have a more accurate idea of what's out there.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.05.17 16:18:00 - [16] Sorry, when did Eve became Quake 3? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
plasmadump	Posted - 2004.05.17 16:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Deirdre Skye Adding fog of war will benefit Alliance Corps since they can see many systems due to large defence channels on TS and PW protected channels in game. our corp does ninja missions to 0.0 and we send frigates through as scouts, using teamspeak and pw protected channels. we also have other secrets. if you wanna get around the pirates, you gotta think like the pirates ;) if you cant join em, beat em -- plasmadump hunter - gatherer - Anarchy 99
Daakkon	Posted - 2004.05.17 16:59:00 - [18] josh do us all a favor and go back to your safespot www.dark-cartel.com
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.05.17 17:12:00 - [19] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 17/05/2004 17:14:18 Originally by: Daakkon josh do us all a favor and go back to your safespot Think it through, Daakkon. If you remove the map features how will you know where your enemy is? It would suck having to do 45 jumps on the off-chance there was someone around. Although, having said that, war in 0.0 does only take place in a few systems so I guess it could work provided there was some kind of in-station feature which gave limited info or vague hints that a certain system in the region was busy or something. Edit: It would also mean more players used insta-jumps etc or fighting groups only travelled around in massive safe blobs. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Daakkon	Posted - 2004.05.17 17:19:00 - [20] well i think we should be able to see who is in the same region or constellation as us but removing it completly would suck but they could give us a default of constellation and adding skills so we can se who is in our region www.dark-cartel.com
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.05.17 17:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Daakkon well i think we should be able to see who is in the same region or constellation as us but removing it completly would suck but they could give us a default of constellation and adding skills so we can se who is in our region Skills sounds like a pretty decent idea. Maybe something related to interstellar orienteering? We'll all be turning into boy scouts LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Daakkon	Posted - 2004.05.17 17:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Daakkon well i think we should be able to see who is in the same region or constellation as us but removing it completly would suck but they could give us a default of constellation and adding skills so we can se who is in our region Skills sounds like a pretty decent idea. Maybe something related to interstellar orienteering? We'll all be turning into boy scouts lol but if they do remove number of pilots in space they should make jumps in last hour turn into jumps in last 5 min that way u can still see who is coming but not as easily as before www.dark-cartel.com
Lermitte	Posted - 2004.05.17 19:22:00 - [23] How about all empire space shows exactly how many ships from concord scanners. 0.0 non stationssystems could be fogged and corps could have a deployable scanner that reports on activity.
Lifewire	Posted - 2004.05.17 19:30:00 - [24] Fog of war is needed!
McWatt	Posted - 2004.05.17 19:33:00 - [25] some limits to map would be great. but as a first change i would propose to make ship types show up differently. numbers of ships in space should be shown in "battleships", with cruisers counting 1/2 and frigates 1/4, rounding up. why? ppl see 5 pilots inspace and don t jump in assuming its 5 battleships atm. after the change they would see a 2 and perhaps jump into 3 frigs and 2 cruisers.
Jayad	Posted - 2004.05.18 14:27:00 - [26] Under the current map system, HIVE will not be sending any more 0.0 missions. Only small groups of 2 or 3 pilots. It has become apparent that forming a (Selfish and tyranical) alliance with other corporations is the only goal in eve applicable for medium sized corps. Speaking with other empire bound corps, most agree they feel limited without experiancing there full "subs" worth. I want our friendly good-natured group to suvive, suvival i mean: (no stagnation, better than kern/omber mining, affordable pvp, changing environment) without these eve is dull and has no last-ablity. We have tryed to expand our horizons by venturing into "LAW-LESS-SPACE 0.0" however we have been the victim of a horrible game mechanic time time again. I cant begin to understand CCP's motives behind map scanning of 0.0, alliances need to work for and organise there intelligence data, not just given to them freely. HIVE will have a discussion about alliance applications soon.

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