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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.05.18 01:46:00 -
[31]
Forget balance.
Ships in Eve are balanced about as much as classes and races were in EQ. (i.e. NOT)
And they are NEVER going to be perfectly balanced. Somebody is always gonna think ship XXX needs 1000 more powergrid or 50 more cpu, or one more slot or whatever.
Give it up already. Don't look at some other races ship and whine "They do X better than Y, why cant race Z do that? blah blah blah".
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Kaylona Tso
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Posted - 2004.05.18 04:05:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Mikelangelo
Forget balance.
Ships in Eve are balanced about as much as classes and races were in EQ. (i.e. NOT)
And they are NEVER going to be perfectly balanced. Somebody is always gonna think ship XXX needs 1000 more powergrid or 50 more cpu, or one more slot or whatever.
Give it up already. Don't look at some other races ship and whine "They do X better than Y, why cant race Z do that? blah blah blah".
The prob here is that I ( the char behind the char ) have flown all BSs that eve has to offer... With 22 and 18 willpower perception this particular char can easily achieve that again If I so choose. I don't care about balance I just don't want my ships nerfted again. That is messing with my purse when I have to go out and buy another completely different config than the one I use for months on end. Most of the people that are voicing the point can easily train another BS of another race to lvl 4 in no time. We want this crap to end... and we are trying to come up with a way that suits both sides of the equation. NEVER say NEVER or you will be replaced by the ONE that DOES.
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Erika Martak
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Posted - 2004.05.18 05:56:00 -
[33]
You can never balance a game like EVE that has so many options and fitting available,
the only way you could ever balance the game would be to give every player the same ship and same modules and that would be it,
there will always be 1 ship that comes out ontop and the rest of the pack would follow until everyone starts complaining again and the old nerf bat comes out of the cupboard again 
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Kathira
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Posted - 2004.05.18 06:10:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Kathira on 18/05/2004 06:14:54
There is an "easy" possibilty to fix these non racial fittings.
The could make it in the fitting requirements.
Old fitting = X Turret hardpoints.
New Fitting = X racial turret hardpoints
New Fitting = X-1(2) non racial turret hardpoints.
So as an example the Dominix can fit 6 Railguns but only 5 Laser beams or 5 1400.
And you can't add the 6th slot with a railgun cause its blockes while youre using non racial weapons.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2004.05.18 07:25:00 -
[35]
Disclaimer: i'm not hugely familiar with Amarr BS's, just started flying the Arma/Apoc recently.
The only ships it really makes sense to fit other races guns on is Amarr, from what I can see. And only the Apoc. The Arma gets a RoF bonus to Large Energy turrets.
It generally doesn't make sense (at least to me) to fit Projectiles on a Arma/Apoc, cause your missing the RoF and DMG bonus that makes them worthwhile. Takes a lot of low slot damage mods to make up for it.
So we're left with Hybrids. The CPU req's on Hybrids are close enough to Lasers, although a little higher. Fitting a full complement of Hybrids does not allow you to be a uber-armour or shield-tank, we don't have enough CPU on the ships. The Arma in particular. I've got pretty decent skills and I sure as hell can't fit a large number of 425's on it, because the CPU is far too restrictive.
Anyhow, my point is simply "what does it matter"? Fitting 425's or MegaBeams is roughly equivalent in terms of fitting and damage output (or Dual Heavies vs. Dual 250's). The extra CPU Hybrids take is a significant penalty on an Amarr ship and the only thing it actually benefits us is cap. Most people I know are either using sustainable laser setups anyhow, or carrying large cap boosters, which is the same thing. Using rails just means we trade cap booster cargo space for hybrid ammo...
Maybe I'm utterly failing to see the problem, but limiting a pilot to specific guns on specific ships makes everyone way to predictable.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.18 09:07:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 18/05/2004 09:07:55
So maybe change the Apoc bonus to RoF or damage then, and you'd mount heavy energy weapons...
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Liz Bathory
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Posted - 2004.05.18 09:22:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Liz Bathory on 18/05/2004 09:26:04
i can;t argue about the accuracy of your stats, being a frigate pilot
however, your rp is totally nonexistant
amarr ships are designed around lasers and armourtanks
caldari around rails, misiles and sheildtanks
gallente, blasters, drones and i believe armourtanking
and minmatar use projectiles, missiles, and armour or sheildtanking
an amaar ship will have severe difficulty handling the stresses of firing a 1400mm howitzer, the recoil on those would shatter an unreinforced turret mounting
whereas a minmatar ship would not be able to handle the truly insane heat output of a laser
thus both would be unable to use the opposing weapons
the same logic applies to gallente and caldari fitting lasers or projectiles, gine that rails are a midpoint between heat and recoil
as are blasters
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Tyr Guann
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Posted - 2004.05.18 09:24:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Tyr Guann on 18/05/2004 09:27:17
Instead of balancing combat ships to be all equal, banalnce them to be good at one thing. For example,
The Gallente: good with blasters and drones, so concentrate on these assets. Racial bonuses, i.e. of the pilot only, could be drone damage and hybrid RoF.
The Minmatar: uber long range projectiles and speed? A bonus to tracking/accuracy/falloff range maybe? And a little boost to speed?
Caldari: EW and missiles (although with the next set of updates...) With all the lovin' the missiles are going to get, we'll have to wait and see.
Amarr: Lasers and armor tanking? Armour bonuses?
(note: this is on top of the the current ship bonuses. These would only apply when using the ship of YOUR race.)
Disclaimer: this is just an idea. Feel free to point out flaws.
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Kaylona Tso
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Posted - 2004.05.18 15:33:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Kaylona Tso on 18/05/2004 15:35:19
Originally by: Tyr Guann
Edited by: Tyr Guann on 18/05/2004 09:27:17
Instead of balancing combat ships to be all equal, banalnce them to be good at one thing. For example,
The Gallente: good with blasters and drones, so concentrate on these assets. Racial bonuses, i.e. of the pilot only, could be drone damage and hybrid RoF.
The Minmatar: uber long range projectiles and speed? A bonus to tracking/accuracy/falloff range maybe? And a little boost to speed?
Caldari: EW and missiles (although with the next set of updates...) With all the lovin' the missiles are going to get, we'll have to wait and see.
Amarr: Lasers and armor tanking? Armour bonuses?
(note: this is on top of the the current ship bonuses. These would only apply when using the ship of YOUR race.)
Disclaimer: this is just an idea. Feel free to point out flaws.
Making the damage mods dictate the performance of the guns seem much easier imo, since they do so now anyways. Make the damage mods race-of-ship specific and you can tweak them to your hearts content and would hardly ever have touch the ship or its natural bonus. Make it harder for a Raven to fit a Projectile Mod compared to a Tempest Fitting a Projectile Mod, and visa versa, and Damage and RoF from damage mods and how many you can fit would dictate the performance of your guns. If you wanted to put 8 Hybrids on an apoc then you might run out of cpu before you could do so without a co-proc. Thus to get the most out of them, with a dmod, you couldn't armor tank as much. Looks like a simple fix to me... but I may be wrong. No one has had any constructive ideas about my idea except stating eve will never be balanced. My suggestion is a hell of a lot closer to balanced than that absolute nonsense of a statement.
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Man'corr
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Posted - 2004.05.18 15:37:00 -
[40]
thx.
Kaylona Tso
i dont know why i am going to your level of interhuman communication, but your last sentence steals all the credibilty your posts might have established.
All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk
The 3rd turret is the Malediction is missing. Plz make as much noise as possible so that CCP gets us a remedy for that, possibly before X-Mas this year. |
Flavius Renatus
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Posted - 2004.05.18 17:12:00 -
[41]
Hi Again All,
I like all the above suggestions. All of them might remedy the problem that CCP is facing in getting us out of this seemingly never ending cycle of Nerf-Counter Nerf.
I think that I was trying to put forth an idea that is alittle more basic then the ones suggested. We need to pin down the biggest variable when setting up a ship (its damage dealing capability i.e. Turrets). These seem to be the root of the problem, the ability to mount all the turrets on all the ships.
My suggestion still stands and I believe it would be the easiest to impliment. The more I think about it, it should not be too much work for CCP to modify what turrets are aloud on to be put on the fitting screen, the code is already there for Missle Launcher vs. Turrets so tweeking that part of the code should not be too difficult.
Once these variables are set down.. THEN CCP can balace race agaist race. Now this is not to say that once this is done, at a future date we can go back to being able to mount diffent race weapons on diffent ships, but by then CCP will have established a system to modify it so that, if someone chooses to do it they do not become uber.
I wish one of the Devs, would atleast read this. I believe the Idea has some merit.
Flavius Renatus
(Ancient Roman Military Historian)
Real Power Is Something You Take!!! |
Jaleena Maraa
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Posted - 2004.05.18 17:17:00 -
[42]
yer why not give amarr only lasers, gallente only blasters, caldari only rails and minnies only proj.
yer why not...........would be quite an advantage to the freedom of modifying yer own ships any way you like it.
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GenocidalSpliff
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Posted - 2004.05.18 18:13:00 -
[43]
Maybe making the grid required for turrets a % of the ships total (base) pg would work better for ballancing. That way the turret requirements would scale regardless of what race's ship they went on. But even this would need balancing, and would b0rk up the difference between tier1 and tier2 ships, instead of just the races.
2004.08.22 21:03:00 combat Your Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I perfectly strikes callonious [BSC], wrecking for 236.9 damage. |
TerminusX
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Posted - 2004.05.18 20:03:00 -
[44]
I think to limit ships to weapon types is silly. Ship bonuses will make an intelligent BS user fit his ship with that weapon type. Yes you can cross-fit weapon types....but that doesnt happen often if the ship bonus is right. I just think they need to better ship/turret type bonuses (ex . Apoc) so that the Apoc users will use lasers more. But to limit their use would be boring and unnecessary as the easiest fix is to just give the proper bonus for ship type.
Divine Retribution - My name is TerminusX, prepare to die. |
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