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Question about game lag and lost ships

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Calvin Okone Gallente LSP Industries	Posted - 2008.07.02 12:48:00 - [1] Recently I lost a ship due to massive lag around a gate. I know, I know, the same ol' sad story - but hear me out. Anyway I jump to a gate and there is 120+ ships there. Next thing I know my client stops responding (No screen update, no sound, etc. I never even saw the gate), and then I am in a station. I put in a petition and was told there was nothing wrong with the Eve servers and my ship lost is just that -- lost. I read the info concerning reimbursement, but it seems to me if you warp to 0 on a gate and then stand there while 120 ships beat you down, and then pod you I'd say there is a disconnect here. has anyone else ran into this sort of situation? Where the results just as depressing as mine were? I don't see how a GM that reviewed the logs would miss that. No shots fired. No movement. I was not disconnected, even if I were I thought the ship was supposed to automatically warp away somewhere - provided I did not fire.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.07.02 12:52:00 - [2] trying to get a ship loss reimbursed after lagging in pvp is like trying to beat the world record for jumping down stairs. painful and ultimatly pointless. We come for our people
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.07.02 12:52:00 - [3] What's the question? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.07.02 12:54:00 - [4] think you have a weak PC... it couldnt load the 120 ships and that crashed the client... nothing wrong whit CCP servers = no reinburse ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.07.02 13:02:00 - [5] CCP's position is that you agreed to put up with the lag and desyncs when you subscribed. Lag and desyncs have existed for so long that CCP now probably considers them both to be a PVE feature of the game. CCP's logs cannot tell the difference between you lagging-out and you allowing yourself to get ganked via inaction. You can show CCP screenshots and fraps and petition all day long and you will get the same "our logs show nothing" response, because your evidence is exactly that, yours and not "theirs". Best to always play in a system with 20 or less people in it if you don't want to experience lag and desyncs, flying internet spaceships is serious business.. It's so safe to play along, little soldiers in a row Falling in and out of love, with something sweet to throw away. I want something good to DIE for...to make it beautiful to live.
Tzigan Jegos Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.02 13:04:00 - [6] Originally by: Calvin Okone Recently I lost a ship due to massive lag around a gate. I know, I know, the same ol' sad story - but hear me out. Sorry Originally by: Calvin Okone Anyway I jump to a gate and there is 120+ ships there. Next thing I know my client stops responding (No screen update, no sound, etc. I never even saw the gate), and then I am in a station. The eve client froze. Get more RAM, a better CPU and put your EVE cache in a RAMdrive for extra speed!. Originally by: Calvin Okone I put in a petition and was told there was nothing wrong with the Eve servers and my ship lost is just that -- lost. Well, there was nothing with the eve servers. If there was something wrong with the server, your attackers couldn't have attacked and killed you either. Server was fine. Originally by: Calvin Okone I read the info concerning reimbursement, but it seems to me if you warp to 0 on a gate and then stand there while 120 ships beat you down, and then pod you I'd say there is a disconnect here. Why disconnect ? Maybe one just gave up against the massive odds and, knowing he will be killed and podded, they went to make a sandwich or something. Originally by: Calvin Okone has anyone else ran into this sort of situation? Where the results just as depressing as mine were? I don't see how a GM that reviewed the logs would miss that. No shots fired. No movement. I was not disconnected, even if I were I thought the ship was supposed to automatically warp away somewhere - provided I did not fire. So if I lose my ship to a gatecamp and I don't move or fire, I'm entitled to get my ship back ? There is no way people would exploit that, because everyone is plays fair. Right ? The dog that trots about finds a bone. - Gypsy proverb
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.07.02 13:11:00 - [7] Lag is not a condition for reimbursement -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve, USERPROFILE
Calvin Okone Gallente LSP Industries	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:07:00 - [8] Edited by: Calvin Okone on 02/07/2008 14:09:25 Originally by: Doc Fury ... flying internet spaceships is serious business.. Very funny, that actually made me laugh. I fell a little better now. but I think I am going to track down every person on the kill mail and suicide them one by one. Might take a while... and for the record I don't think its my box. I have an Alienware Area-51 with 2gb or ram and a 7500 gfx card in it. Its not screaming but its not junk either. I've played Eve on less.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:15:00 - [9] Doesn't matter, Cal. As you probably already know, lag can come from any one or more of the following. 1. Your system (slow HD for example, though doubtful in your case) 2. Your network (bittorrent traffic? :D) 3. Your ISP's network 4. The vast intarwebs between your ISP and... 5. CCP's internet host 6. CCP server lag It's a lot of points of failure really, and the way EVE works (especially in the situation you found yourself in) a blip of lag for even a few seconds will result in your demise. The downer is, none of the above will be a reason for CCP to reimburse you for your loss. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:17:00 - [10] Lag is frustrating, but so completely common in EVE that it isn't a sufficient condition for reimbursement. I mean, in big fleet fights, practically every ship lost is lost 'due to lag' :p
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:31:00 - [11] "Our logs show nothing." ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Poast Warrior Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:43:00 - [12] Some of these answers are... so... bad... 1) Eve handles loading the grid incorrectly. Client shouldn't appear on grid until the client finishes loading the grid itself. I don't care how fast your PC or net connection is, you'd be dead long before you could load that grid (which is what happened). 2) Eve lags like a turd (server side) with more that ~50 people on grid, it doesn't matter how fast your client net connection is or how many frames your client can render. 3) I can understand CCP's response.. I guess. Maybe they should change the game mechanics since they can't seem to actually fix the game breaking lag?
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Poast Warrior 2) Eve lags like a turd (server side) with more that ~50 people on grid, it doesn't matter how fast your client net connection is or how many frames your client can render. 3) I can understand CCP's response.. I guess. Maybe they should change the game mechanics since they can't seem to actually fix the game breaking lag? strong stuff you said... but you dont know **... we all dont... only those who work whit the servers know. so if you got some server side logs that show you get lag because the servers lag... that talk is just as bull** as me saying that CCP servers work 100% of the time. kinda agree whit point 1 tho. but its very hard to implement... that would requre CCP change code so that more queries are made to the client that make checks that the client has loaded or not the grid. that would mean increased traffic... what leads to more lag as that would be heck of alot more bandwith used for checks. PS: acctually typing the last part i thought of 2 other ways to implement it but it wouldnt still be a good way for the game. ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
Poast Warrior Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:26:00 - [14] Fair enough. The evidence still strongly supports server side (or server side pipe) lag. Warp a 50 man fleet on top of a 50 man fleet already on grid and everyone will experience module lag. I have a hard time believing all 100 people have poor net connections or low end PCs. That really only leaves 2 things (either the CCP pipe or the CCP server). I'm sure they're trying to best to solve it, so I'll give them that. As far as the grid loading, I would think the server sends a bit saying "this is the end of the grid" (I assume it does now) and then the client would need to send a bit saying "I've loaded the grid" then the server would need to send a bit to each other client (assuming it does that now) saying that ship is now on grid. Doesn't seem like too much extra traffic or processing.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:46:00 - [15] 1. LOST SHIPS Please note that the insurance payout received when a ship is lost will be subtracted from a playerÆs wallet if the ship is reimbursed. Ships may be lost during combat with non-player (NPC) pirates or police forces, player-vs-player (PVP) combat or by self-destruction. 1. Ships lost in NPC combat may be replaced in cases where a bug has been verified through GM investigation as the cause. Such reimbursement would only be done at the discretion of a GM. 2. Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM. 3. Losses caused due to disconnection as a direct result of a server node drop or an unannounced server downtime may be reimbursed pending investigation by, and at the discretion of, a GM. Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed. 4. Ships destroyed by use of the "self destruct" feature, whether intentionally or accidentally, cannot be reimbursed. Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:53:00 - [16] "our logs show nothing" get used to that phrase Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Joker Kaaos Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:20:12 Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:19:56 Originally by: Poast Warrior Some of these answers are... so... bad... 1) Eve handles loading the grid incorrectly. Client shouldn't appear on grid until the client finishes loading the grid itself. I don't care how fast your PC or net connection is, you'd be dead long before you could load that grid (which is what happened). This is the strongest excuse buster, and the main reason I'm not interested in large-scale combat in EVE. *The client should NOT allow a character to be vulnerable during session-change loading times.* It's that simple. There is NO "but you must understand..." that makes it acceptable "gameplay." There is NO ridiculous metagaming semi-solution that makes it acceptable "gameplay." I've only been around a few months, but I've lost two ships (along with my pod/implants) going through gates before I ever loaded the new system. I have a very solid machine with 4GB of RAM, too. The second loss was a substantial financial hit, and made me consider leaving the game. Not because I can't stand losing ships - I know losing ships drives the EVE economy. I've lost ships poking about in low sec, etc. That's fine. I just don't want to lose them randomly when I change sessions and have NO chance to take counter-measures or at least witness my pitiful demise. If the economy of the game depends on a random chance of instant death when going through a gate, it's broken. I love PvP. I hate PvBlackLoadingScreen and won't pay to "play" it.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:23:00 - [18] Originally by: Joker Kaaos Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:20:12 Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:19:56 Originally by: Poast Warrior Some of these answers are... so... bad... 1) Eve handles loading the grid incorrectly. Client shouldn't appear on grid until the client finishes loading the grid itself. I don't care how fast your PC or net connection is, you'd be dead long before you could load that grid (which is what happened). This is the strongest excuse buster, and the main reason I'm not interested in large-scale combat in EVE. *The client should NOT allow a character to be vulnerable during session-change loading times.* It's that simple. There is NO "but you must understand..." that makes it acceptable "gameplay." There is NO ridiculous metagaming semi-solution that makes it acceptable "gameplay." I've only been around a few months, but I've lost two ships (along with my pod/implants) going through gates before I ever loaded the new system. I have a very solid machine with 4GB of RAM, too. The second loss was a substantial financial hit, and made me consider leaving the game. Not because I can't stand losing ships - I know losing ships drives the EVE economy. I've lost ships poking about in low sec, etc. That's fine. I just don't want to lose them randomly when I change sessions and have NO chance to take counter-measures or at least witness my pitiful demise. If the economy of the game depends on a random chance of instant death when going through a gate, it's broken. I love PvP. I hate PvBlackLoadingScreen and won't pay to "play" it. i dont understand why people cant ether, get a shuttle and scout the low sec gate before entering, check the map for ship/pod kills in the last hour (prety obvious that you dont want to go to the system that is a giant red ball of doom) or just get a friend to scout for you. friggin whiners are going to ruin this game by causing everything to get nerfed Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
Liua Ae Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Doc Fury flying internet spaceships is serious business.. That made my day xD @ TS Face it, your PC sucked, or your Internet sucked (Or both?).. so your f*cked ^^
Joker Kaaos Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:27:00 - [20] Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:27:37 Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:27:09 Originally by: Arvald i dont understand why people cant ether, get a shuttle and scout the low sec gate before entering, check the map for ship/pod kills in the last hour (prety obvious that you dont want to go to the system that is a giant red ball of doom) or just get a friend to scout for you. friggin whiners are going to ruin this game by causing everything to get nerfed None of those things solve the problem of dying during session change - they only lessen the likelihood, and I am not going to metagame and use extra accounts to play a game. Being ganked during session-changing is the lowest excuse for PvP in any game. It's not PvP at all. Ambush me when I am fully in control of my character, and my hat's off to you.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Joker Kaaos Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:27:37 Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:27:09 Originally by: Arvald i dont understand why people cant ether, get a shuttle and scout the low sec gate before entering, check the map for ship/pod kills in the last hour (prety obvious that you dont want to go to the system that is a giant red ball of doom) or just get a friend to scout for you. friggin whiners are going to ruin this game by causing everything to get nerfed None of those things solve the problem of dying during session change - they only lessen the likelihood, and I am not going to metagame and use extra accounts to play a game. Being ganked during session-changing is the lowest excuse for PvP in any game. It's not PvP at all. Ambush me when I am fully in control of my character, and my hat's off to you. did i mention metagaming alts anywhere in there? no im pretty sure everything i mentioned was with ether 1 account or a friend, and no it completely removes the risk of something expensive getting poped at a gate camp, if you ether scout in a cheap ship or have a friend help then you loose virtually nothing ^_^ Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
Joker Kaaos Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Joker Kaaos on 02/07/2008 17:40:46 Originally by: Arvald did i mention metagaming alts anywhere in there? no im pretty sure everything i mentioned was with ether 1 account or a friend, and no it completely removes the risk of something expensive getting poped at a gate camp, if you ether scout in a cheap ship or have a friend help then you loose virtually nothing ^_^ First, using a "friend" involves another account or another person to play. That "friend" could still be popped during session change scouting for you. A scout shuttle can still be popped during session change scouting for you. So yes, forcing ONE player to use two accounts to play - in any fashion - is metagaming and asking too much of the player. Second, you have in no way "completely removed" the risk of getting ganked during a jump with your main ship. Scouting is not 100% foolproof unless you find the destination system completely empty, and keep your scout at the other side of the gate to verify it. Are you seriously attempting to tell me that a normal part of jumping in even hi-sec space should involve taking at least two accounts and twice the time just to reduce the chance of being ganked when not in control of your character? This is your position? LOL. You can play metagaming, "friend-scouting," gate-gank lotto all you want. A lot of us won't.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:41:00 - [23] Originally by: Joker Kaaos Originally by: Arvald did i mention metagaming alts anywhere in there? no im pretty sure everything i mentioned was with ether 1 account or a friend, and no it completely removes the risk of something expensive getting poped at a gate camp, if you ether scout in a cheap ship or have a friend help then you loose virtually nothing ^_^ First, using a "friend" involves another account or another person to play. That "friend" could still be popped during session change scouting for you. A scout shuttle can still be popped during session change scouting for you. So yes, forcing ONE player to use two accounts to play - in any fashion - is metagaming and asking too much of the player. Second, you have in no way "completely removed" the risk of getting ganked during a jump with your main ship. Scouting is not 100% foolproof unless you find the destination system completely empty, and keep your scout at the other side of the gate to verify it. Are you seriously attempting to tell me that a normal part of jumping in even hi-sec space should involve taking at least two accounts and twice the time just to reduce the chance of being ganked when not in control of your character? This is your position? LOL. You can play metagaming, "friend-scouting," gate-gamp lotto all you want. A lot of us won't. ok so your telling me that having other people to help you in a multi player game is metagaming.......huh....if you want to play solo maby eve isnt the right game for you? Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
Joker Kaaos Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:45:00 - [24] Having another account (either yours or someone else's) to avoid being destroyed while a system loads is not "helping" you play a game, it's helping you get AROUND the game. It's being forced to use two accounts in an attempt to circumvent a technical problem with the game. So yes, that is 100% metagaming.
Poast Warrior Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Arvald i dont understand why people cant ether, get a shuttle and scout the low sec gate before entering, check the map for ship/pod kills in the last hour (prety obvious that you dont want to go to the system that is a giant red ball of doom) or just get a friend to scout for you. friggin whiners are going to ruin this game by causing everything to get nerfed You're completely missing the point. Completely. While not technically "wrong" it really has nothing to do with the obvious flaw the game has while handling grid loading.
Calvin Okone Gallente LSP Industries	Posted - 2008.07.07 10:49:00 - [26] I have to agree with Joker Kaaos. I really didn't mind loosing the ship. What I did not like was not having a chance. If I get caught mining in low-sec I'll self-destruct my ship. No worries that's part of the game. However, when I don't even see my enemy, when I can't even perform the useless defiant act of suicide by blowing up my own ship - that bothers me. (Speaking of which they need to let us set the timer on self destructs and have it do some actual damage.) I am also taking some action on my part to eliminate or minimize any bottlenecks I have. I got a ram disk program for the cache files. I wrote a quick script to sync the files every so often. Been toying with the idea of getting a SSD as well, but the price tag is a bit hefty. I am also replacing my cable modem. It seems that a few years of running bit torrents (not while playing EVE) seems to have driven it to an early grave. It hangs with normal indicator lights but only a power cycle allows traffic to pass. Finally I am thinking of getting a new PC. Please don't tell my wife . When we get Verizon FIOS in our area I'll switch to that as I have heard the speed is much better and the service much more stable.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.07.07 11:09:00 - [27] CCP is always right even when where wrong, please click OK to log in... U see, u agreed to the eula so stop whining, i didn't get my ship back in 2004 so why should u? _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads Ouroboros Cross Combine	Posted - 2008.07.07 11:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Poast Warrior Some of these answers are... so... bad... 1) Eve handles loading the grid incorrectly. Client shouldn't appear on grid until the client finishes loading the grid itself. I don't care how fast your PC or net connection is, you'd be dead long before you could load that grid (which is what happened). 2) Eve lags like a turd (server side) with more that ~50 people on grid, it doesn't matter how fast your client net connection is or how many frames your client can render. 3) I can understand CCP's response.. I guess. Maybe they should change the game mechanics since they can't seem to actually fix the game breaking lag? maybe you should quit blaming CCP and look at your crappy computer, your ISP and learn optimization. seriously, with 800 people in Jita yesterday I GOT NO LAG. and i never goto Jita, im out in lowersec space where its considerable better -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.07 11:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Poast Warrior Client shouldn't appear on grid until the client finishes loading the grid itself. This, if for no other reason than it makes so much sense. -
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2008.07.07 11:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Calvin Okone Recently I lost a ship due to massive lag around a gate. I know, I know, the same ol' sad story - but hear me out. Anyway I jump to a gate and there is 120+ ships there. Next thing I know my client stops responding (No screen update, no sound, etc. I never even saw the gate), and then I am in a station. I put in a petition and was told there was nothing wrong with the Eve servers and my ship lost is just that -- lost. I read the info concerning reimbursement, but it seems to me if you warp to 0 on a gate and then stand there while 120 ships beat you down, and then pod you I'd say there is a disconnect here. has anyone else ran into this sort of situation? Where the results just as depressing as mine were? I don't see how a GM that reviewed the logs would miss that. No shots fired. No movement. I was not disconnected, even if I were I thought the ship was supposed to automatically warp away somewhere - provided I did not fire. Sorry but none of this is CCP's fault, and you wont get a new ship. You chose to be there...You knew there were 120+ people in the system wanting to kill you. And you continued anyway...So were does CCP come into this? Damn you CCP! Why did you have to make such a good game?? Yes you drew me back AGAIN! Oh well wheres the Omber?

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