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GREATONE
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Posted - 2004.05.30 01:19:00 -
[31]
well ok you want the rest of us to be defensles against missiles if you think thats ok np ...
what whould you say if you couldent def against hmm lets say hybrids whould that be fair you think?
i dont think so its alwayes about balance tank or fight its up to you plz dont take this personaly cos its not intended to be ..and still you must agree it whould be silly to have diffrent class of def missiles as i stated before an impact is an impact then stuff go boom nm size
also best def is smartbombs anyway 
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GREATONE
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Posted - 2004.05.30 01:29:00 -
[32]
sorry dident read your last post completely you say its more easy to scramble missiles hmm that was news to me
there are stuff to **** my hybrids with to beleve me i know
and read new dev blog alot of news on missiles and other stuff about the fittings as i sayed read dev blog it is on the way you will get more power you will see that if you read dev blogs the only ship that aint get any new stuff is the mega
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John McCreedy
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Posted - 2004.05.30 02:13:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: GREATONE
...the only ship that aint get any new stuff is the mega
Originally by: TomB
Megathron Power: 15000 (was 12500)
Make a difference
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.05.30 02:18:00 -
[34]
Ah yes, the Megathron, clearly the devs' favorite ship. Not only could it mount a ton of hybrid turrets with an all-important damage bonus before, it can now mount even bigger ones - this in addition to its drone bay which lets it launch 10 heavies if it pleases.
Meanwhile Raven gets nerfed to 9500 grid.
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GREATONE
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Posted - 2004.05.30 03:42:00 -
[35]
Edited by: GREATONE on 30/05/2004 03:50:05
Edited by: GREATONE on 30/05/2004 03:44:30
john thats old
and i got 16500 in grid :)
ps : we all pick our races when we start i went gallante so i use the mega and about the bonus all races got one so that we can leave alone no comment
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2004.05.30 07:45:00 -
[36]
Missiles :
-steady damage
-can do any kind of damage to maximize damage
Turrets :
-can miss for no reason other than bad luck, with miss, barely miss, lightly hit
-limited to 2 kind of damage for lasers and hybrids, 3 kinds for projectiles
Defenders and smartbombs are the random factor of missiles
Consider yourself lucky, defenders dont work and with the speed increase of missiles, its going to be even harder to time your smartbomb well.
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.30 08:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Ah yes, the Megathron, clearly the devs' favorite ship. Not only could it mount a ton of hybrid turrets with an all-important damage bonus before, it can now mount even bigger ones - this in addition to its drone bay which lets it launch 10 heavies if it pleases.
Meanwhile Raven gets nerfed to 9500 grid.
Istvaan,
The Megathron is a terminally weak ship despite its ability for damage output. You can't do full damage and fully armour-tank which, in the main, is the same as other tier 2 battleships.
All of the changes are good ones for balance except for Apoc users who, despite getting the biggest and best increases, still aren't happy 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.30 12:20:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Hellek on 30/05/2004 12:23:13
Joshua: I think the Apoc is okay now (of course minor issues are remaining), the thing I dislike is that Lasers aren't. The strongest Apoc is still an Apoc using 425mm rails.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.30 15:00:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 30/05/2004 12:23:13
Joshua: I think the Apoc is okay now (of course minor issues are remaining), the thing I dislike is that Lasers aren't. The strongest Apoc is still an Apoc using 425mm rails.
Essentially, the megathron is the WORST tier2 BS around when looking at versatility. It is onyl fitting that in theory it has the ability to do the most damage at any give range. Mega pilots are just forced to forget about defneces when they want to do that ³ber damage.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.30 15:26:00 -
[40]
all ships have to sacrifice defense to deal good damage.
Megathron can do longrange (rails) and shortrange (blasters) very well, so I don't think its a bad ship.
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2004.05.30 16:57:00 -
[41]
As a Raven pilot id like to point to another issue than just the fact that defenders counter missiles. But rather that missile boats like the Raven, does not have the ability to use anit missile defence in its high slots, as fitting that would mean that is sacrificing a Primary Wapons, which none of the other races has to do.
Ravens cant really use smartbombs efficiently either due to the Powergrid issues that its now facing with lowered PG.
And i still want ppl to think about the fact that Cruise Missiles, which damage is on track with other guns, will after suggestions made here, also be countered with ease. Particulary if its made so that defender missiles will be targeting missiles incoming not only at you. Then missiels will be rendered pretty usesless if you picture a normal fleet where most other bs but missileboats will be fitting one or two launchers with defenders - totally eliminating Missileboats.
If changes are made so defenders work as good as some of you guys want them too, youll end up having missileboats targeting missileboats, as they are the only ones not able to fit a viable missile defence.
Personally I think defenders could just leave the game and never return as changes look to be. You can efficiently defend against torpedos with smartbombs. CM's shouldnt be easily countered as their damage is on pair with other guns. Please dont state that they do a steady damage and guns strikes light hits. Guns also have good, perfect, wrecking hits, that makes their dmg over time stay around its "standard" damage.
At least if you make defenders work efficiently, make special defender launchers that can be fitted in gunnery slots as well as launcher slots so Missileboats can be using them as well
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.05.31 00:27:00 -
[42]
You cannot counter a couter attack thats why it's called a counter attack, But if you counter the counter attack it means you wernt fit properly for the primary attack.
Defenders are a valid counter measure.
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.31 00:53:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Hellek on 31/05/2004 00:54:57
to mount a small launcher or a smartbomb, I DO have to sacrifice a primary weapon on my apoc or tempest and I do think that it is similar for the megathron.
Smartbombs are difficult to mount for most ships, on raven grid is the problem, on apoc its the CPU.
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GREATONE
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Posted - 2004.05.31 01:21:00 -
[44]
well what can i say about the mega
lets begin with smart bombs fitt 2 medium ones rest 425 guns and you own it is tested against named wepons etc from 2 ships fireing 400 missiles the test showed 30 % damage to shieald so i whould say that mega owns if you fitt it right that is most dont fitt right but 1 v 1 peps will for sure not beat a mega if you fitt it right
this is tested in castor so this aint bull****
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ZYMOTICAL
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Posted - 2004.05.31 06:27:00 -
[45]
Ok, how about this. Lets make defender missiles more like tiny FoF missiles. You launch them and they home in on the nearest small hostile target... drones, missiles, fighters(when carriers come out). Light missiles will move a bit too fast to be intercepted all the time. Cruise missiles and torpedos should have countermeasures such as decoy launchers to reduce the chance of interception... drones are just screwed, but it should take 2-3 defenders to take one down.
This solution makes defenders useful, but not uber.
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Del Narveux
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Posted - 2004.05.31 10:00:00 -
[46]
Missiles shouldnt be a replacement for guns. They should be very powerful but relatively easy to deal with if you expect them. If anything defenders should be made to work better. If only the devs would learn this and stop jerking around with missle settings so much, a lot of Caldaris would be a lot happier.
_________________
[SAK] And Proud Of It!
aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Takrolimus
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Posted - 2004.05.31 13:01:00 -
[47]
GREATONE: your info is old, new missiles changes have them flying over 5 km/sec. How are smartbombs supposed to stop that?
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John McCreedy
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Posted - 2004.05.31 13:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Takrolimus
GREATONE: your info is old, new missiles changes have them flying over 5 km/sec. How are smartbombs supposed to stop that?
Smart bombs where never designed as an anti-Missile defense. That was a convenient side effect. Defender missiles are supposed to counter missiles. The problem for missile users arrises from the fact that to take out a Battship class weapon (Cruise Missile or Torp) you can fit a Frigate class weapon.
Now before you all start going on about the fact a Missile always hits for maximum damage, never misses etc., take into account that this compensates for the traveling time of a missile where as turret ammo hit instantly. Depending on range (as of now on TQ) I can take 25% shield damage before the first missile hits. So that side of it is balanced. But like it or not, missiles are for certain ships, a primary weapon and there needs to be a balance in the counter-measures. The inbalance is in the fitting requirements. To fit Anti-Missile countermeasures requires very little sacrifice. To fit Anti-Turret countermeasures
a Caldari pilot who should be shield tanking (and will have no choice post-patch) has to make sacrifice to his sheilds to fit ECM which is the couter for Turrets, i.e. prevent lock on.
Armour tankers don't need to make sacrifice to fit an ECCM because their defence is in the low slots and ECM/ECCM is mid slot and Standard Launchers have pitifully low fitting requriements for a Battleship.
Now then, in a missile boat, if I'm going to want to counter your turrets, I'm going to have to sacrifice Sheild tanking and go down the ECM route. What I think is only fair is that for a turret based ship to counter my missiles, they need to sacrifice on offence via having to fit a Launcher for the appropriate defender class missile thus balancing each other out . You'll still have an advantage because you can fit ECCM Bursts to your med slots, just not as big an advantage as before.
I don't want the Caldari to be all powerful because I fly other race ships as well. What I want is balance. I don't feel that balance is currently there.
These are my thoughts on the matter and if you disagree with me, tell me why with a counter argument that is well thought out, don't turn it into a racial issue.
Make a difference
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Man'corr
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Posted - 2004.05.31 14:07:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Man'corr on 31/05/2004 14:10:45
Originally by: John McCreedy
Smart bombs where never designed as an anti-Missile defense. That was a convenient side effect. Defender missiles are supposed to counter missiles. The problem for missile users arrises from the fact that to take out a Battship class weapon (Cruise Missile or Torp) you can fit a Frigate class weapon.
Now if you agree that SBs are no defense against missles, (which is the way its going to be (or real close) with high speed missles) how are mallers / thoraces supposed to defend missles.......well they cqan tank against the damage, but thats about it.
Armageddon pilots would be quite happy too, to take full damage from a raven, without even the option a missle defense.
EDIT = actually i can agree with that, as amarr ships do certainly look like damagetakers but then ccp should put smartbombs into their correct place. With item descriptions and such things.
All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk
The 3rd turret is the Malediction is missing. Plz make as much noise as possible so that CCP gets us a remedy for that, possibly before X-Mas this year. |
DJTheBaron
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Posted - 2004.05.31 17:06:00 -
[50]
anti missile drones, repair drones, lots of new drones planned i hear, so non misisle races with a drone bonus will be fine
missile races with defenders will still ahve a 1 in 5 hit per defender launcher
__________________________________________________
Scum, your all scum. |
John McCreedy
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Posted - 2004.05.31 17:39:00 -
[51]
How will Anti-Missile Drones possibly create the balance that is needed? Where will be the sacrifice in order to use these? Can we get Anti-Turret Drones?
I hope I never see the day they release either of those.
Make a difference
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Razin
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Posted - 2004.05.31 17:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: John McCreedy
How will Anti-Missile Drones possibly create the balance that is needed? Where will be the sacrifice in order to use these?
The sacrifice is the offensive drone capability that is traded for the defensive capability (you can only control a max of 10 drones in flight).
Quote:
Can we get Anti-Turret Drones?
Can we get missiles that hit with the same probability as turrets? And for variable missile damage like turrets? And missiles that have max tracking speed? Missiles that hit at long range (50 km) but for very little damage, and short range (5 km) but for high damage? How about turrets that rock the ship when they hit and make it loose speed?
Quote:
I hope I never see the day they release either of those.
There is plenty of balance to use up. Anyone using defenders is sacrificing offensive capability, so it all balances out in the end.
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John McCreedy
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Posted - 2004.05.31 19:28:00 -
[53]
Originally by: John McCreedy
How will Anti-Missile Drones possibly create the balance that is needed? Where will be the sacrifice in order to use these?
Originally by: Razin
The sacrifice is the offensive drone capability that is traded for the defensive capability (you can only control a max of 10 drones in flight).
I'd agree if offensive drones could be used at long range where fleet battles take place. As it is, they don't so it's no sacrifice at all.
Originally by: John McCreedy
Can we get Anti-Turret Drones?
Originally by: Razin
Can we get missiles that hit with the same probability as turrets? And for variable missile damage like turrets? And missiles that have max tracking speed? Missiles that hit at long range (50 km) but for very little damage, and short range (5 km) but for high damage? How about turrets that rock the ship when they hit and make it loose speed?
It was a sarcastic answer I'm sorry. I don't want to see either. Like I've pointed out, Missiles hit for max and more damage due to their flight time. There are turrets that can do more DoT.
Originally by: Razin
There is plenty of balance to use up. Anyone using defenders is sacrificing offensive capability, so it all balances out in the end.
That's just it, they're not. You can fit a Standard Launcher to your 7th or 8th slot if you're in a Megathron or Appocalypse without sacrificing any Offence. Missile users can't fit Jammers, Dampeners or Disruptors without giving up defence. That's the whole point.
The only way they would have to give up Offensive capability is if they had, for example, a defender missile class that could only take out Cruise Missiles. Said Missile would have to fit in a Cruise Launcher which would mean they would have to trade a Turret for a Launcher with Defenders.
Think about it from a balance point of view. You will still be able to defend against incomming missiles, only to do so will require some sacriice. At the end of the day, all other missiles are class specific come the next patch so why not Defenders?
Make a difference
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.06.01 09:57:00 -
[54]
Thoughts...
1) Defenders should be pure defence - not launchable from missile launchers but instead use a self-defence launcher which would be *mid* slot. (cf jammers etc).
2) Defenders should have *probability* of kill - better the missile and better the skill, the higher the probability. And rather than being treated as missiles (with all the physics hassles of worrying about trajectories and turning) treat them as hypervelocity i.e. effectively direct fire systems. Point-defence cruisers would then have a bonus to this probability and/or system rate of fire or coverage.
3) Then also no reason why such a self-defence mount couldn't also come in laser, hybrid or projectile flavours...
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