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Thorindor
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Posted - 2008.07.05 09:43:00 -
[1]
1. Me verses the universe, or at least a large part of it. Eve is fairly realistic; it got a nice hard edged challenging feel. However in missions the game devolves into almost an arcade. I find myself at times fighting 10 or so battleships, 10 or so cruisers, and 15 or so frigates and winning without too much effort. Concord kicks my ass, players are actually dangerous, faction navies are a challenge, why are pirates so weak? Not to mention if I just saw one ship chew through dozens of my pals I turn and run, not wait patiently for my turn to die. Reduce the number of ships in missions and make them tougher, make a fight against a NPC battleship actually pose a threat because it dangerous, not because thereÆs 25 of them.
2. Fatalities. The actual number of crew on a ship isn't mentioned very often, from the articles I've seen in EON and on the Eve homepage suggest that a battleship has about 6000 people on it. Factoring in ships sizes and classes I figure on your average level 4 I kill about 200,000 people. I run about 6 level 4s a day so thatÆs 1,200,000 people I kill a day. That makes no sense. Reducing the numbers of ships should solve the problem and posting crew size in the ship info would also be nice.
3. Player killer traps. Certain missions, especially missions that pit you against one of the four Eve Empires can kill you almost instantly without warning. You find yourself being jammed by multiple ships and under fire from dozens of others. These should be changed so that you have a chance to withdrawal or something. Many experienced mission runners know about the missions and simply don't run them, however new mission runners won't expect after running dozens of missions to suddenly find themselves doing a mission way harder than anything they ever encountered.
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Arous Drephius
Alpha Research Group
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Posted - 2008.07.05 09:59:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Thorindor
1,200,000 people I kill a day.
You evil, evil man.
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Kerby Roid
Vaere Family Mining Ltd
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Posted - 2008.07.05 10:03:00 -
[3]
1. IMO it would feel empty if every mission just had a few ship of player skill. Have one or two more like 'Due of Death' but harder would be a bit more fun but dont make all missions like that.
2. In some short EvE storys I have read a large part of the ships crew get out alive in escape pods and then go to serve on a new ship straight after.
3. You can always look the mission up on one of the many mission web pages or try it yourself in a cheap ship if its the first time you have done it. CCP are not going to walk players through missions.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.07.05 17:44:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Thorindor
Eve is fairly realistic;
Umm, what? 
Eve's not realistic in the least. From the oil filled space to "up" and "down" to how ships move and speed works to how missiles work to how tracking works to....and so on.
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Augeas
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Posted - 2008.07.05 23:20:00 -
[5]
In Point 1, you want missions to be made harder, but in Point 3, you want them to be made easier. Well, which is it?
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.07.06 04:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Augeas
In Point 1, you want missions to be made harder, but in Point 3, you want them to be made easier. Well, which is it?
Or point one just says make each mission room less ships or point 2 would in no way be valid together with point 1.
As for showing crewsizes, well there is the MaxPassenger attribute, however it is currently set to 1000 on all battleships, and it does not necessarily equal total amount of humans on board.
Having less ships would only equate to two things, either missions becoming far more farmable/easier, or far tougher/less rewarding. If they remove a number of ships, but makes the ones there harder - they will either make it much harder for those who still run missions warping in and out and in groups, or they will make them far more profitable by letting those who know what they're doing just pick of the higher and make some quicker isk. Yes, it can be balanced, but it's a pain. Generally I like a change in this direction.
We are demigods. We are 200'000 living in a Universe of over 5000 suns, that means some 50'000 Planets. Add to this that time in EVE isn't 1:1 with what we experience. On top of this the medical advances are way above the ones we've seen so far, and if needed forcing production is no major biggie. On top of this Sansha uses Zombies. I wouldn't worry about your missions threatening to exterminate the remains of humanity, it's already gone.
This is actually something I entirely object to. Missions are far to linear as it is, and this random factor should remain but instead be implented to all other missions. You shouldn't be able to plan every single mission into detail through EFT, undock, release drones and grab a coffee. I don't mind people knowing what to expect when running missions unend, I despise the fact that they're always right. There's no element of surprise. I'd also like to see level 4's that won't allow anything bigger than a frigate or a cruiser. I'd want to see reinforcements suddenly warping in to a mission you've ran a hundred times. I'd want to see some real incentive to run the missions in lower security systems.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 950917
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Trollie
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Posted - 2008.07.06 05:36:00 -
[7]
Yes, lets make missions more realistic. Add an accel gate to duo of death and have it drop you ontop of 2 gank blasterthrons with point and web and each dealing 1.2k DPS. 
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Gajotres
Gallente
4 wing
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Posted - 2008.07.06 05:53:00 -
[8]
LVL 5 maybe ???
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Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.07.06 07:21:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Eve is fairly realistic
I stopped reading there.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.07.06 07:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Trollie
Yes, lets make missions more realistic. Add an accel gate to duo of death and have it drop you ontop of 2 gank blasterthrons with point and web and each dealing 1.2k DPS.
FTW! and mission against Guristas should involve them having two ECM-specced Scorpions at 100 km range permajamming you.
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Kerby Roid
Vaere Family Mining Ltd
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Posted - 2008.07.06 10:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: NoNah
I'd also like to see level 4's that won't allow anything bigger than a frigate or a cruiser. I'd want to see reinforcements suddenly warping in to a mission you've ran a hundred times. I'd want to see some real incentive to run the missions in lower security systems.
Some good idears there, I would love to see some of them get in. 
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.06 10:57:00 -
[12]
ôI run about 6 level 4s a day so thatÆs 1,200,000 people I kill a day.ö
What you shoot down helpless escape pods. Your really are evil.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.06 10:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Trollie
Yes, lets make missions more realistic. Add an accel gate to duo of death and have it drop you ontop of 2 gank blasterthrons with point and web and each dealing 1.2k DPS.
and if each one had a 30million bounty?
hmmm might be worth it to fit a torp raven and a basilisk?
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Steyr Daghan
thx for all the fish
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.07.06 11:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Thorindor
3. Player killer traps. Certain missions, especially missions that pit you against one of the four Eve Empires can kill you almost instantly without warning. You find yourself being jammed by multiple ships and under fire from dozens of others. These should be changed so that you have a chance to withdrawal or something. Many experienced mission runners know about the missions and simply don't run them, however new mission runners won't expect after running dozens of missions to suddenly find themselves doing a mission way harder than anything they ever encountered.
Um, what missions are you talking about? I assume you mean level 4 and not level 5. I consider myself one of those "experienced mission runners" and I avoid no missions anymore. Neither do any other mission runner I know. If anything level 4s have gotten too easy since trinity. With a CNR you take no risk whatsoever, it's more like mining; warp in and F1-F7. The only risk comes from other players.
Some level 4s are still dangerous for a new missionrunner, why exactly is that a problem? There are no "killer traps" just missions where an unsufficiently skilled, knowledgable or equipped player can or will get killed. I lost a few ravens early on in my missionrunning career, as I assume do most people. It's part of learning the trade. At more advanced levels level 4s are too easy if anything.
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Nocturnal Avenger
Black Plague.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.06 11:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Steyr Daghan
Um, what missions are you talking about?
IIRC - the Damsel mission gives a blast when the pleasure hub dies. I lost a rather new salvage destroyer that way - with 3 salvage rigs of course :)
- Carebear Pirate - |
Steyr Daghan
thx for all the fish
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.07.06 11:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
Originally by: Steyr Daghan
Um, what missions are you talking about?
IIRC - the Damsel mission gives a blast when the pleasure hub dies. I lost a rather new salvage destroyer that way - with 3 salvage rigs of course :)
Hm, not sure that qualifies as a "killer trap" i think that's more like sawing off the branch you're sitting on 
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Nocturnal Avenger
Black Plague.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.06 11:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Steyr Daghan
Hm, not sure that qualifies as a "killer trap" i think that's more like sawing off the branch you're sitting on
I don't know what would then. I know my alt-alt ended up in a pod.
- Carebear Pirate - |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.07.06 13:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: NoNah
This is actually something I entirely object to. Missions are far to linear as it is, and this random factor should remain but instead be implented to all other missions. You shouldn't be able to plan every single mission into detail through EFT, undock, release drones and grab a coffee. I don't mind people knowing what to expect when running missions unend, I despise the fact that they're always right. There's no element of surprise. I'd also like to see level 4's that won't allow anything bigger than a frigate or a cruiser. I'd want to see reinforcements suddenly warping in to a mission you've ran a hundred times. I'd want to see some real incentive to run the missions in lower security systems.
Well, frig only L4's, why not. But the rest there is terrible.
Missions are a game of efficiency, with the bonus of more isk the better you perform, the lower your margins of error and the closer you cut it. They are NOT simulated PvP.
Your changes would totally kill efficiency, and neccesitate ridiculous overtanking for mundane missions, for when those random reinforcements do *not* jump in.
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.06 15:36:00 -
[19]
Missions make no sence. Go mine. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.06 16:12:00 -
[20]
Know what makes no sense about missions? Running the same one over.. and over.. and over.. and over.. and over. I also agree with point #1, fewer numbers of more powerful mission ships would be fantastic.
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Death4free
Caldari
Privateers
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Posted - 2008.07.06 22:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Know what makes no sense about missions? Running the same one over.. and over.. and over.. and over.. and over. I also agree with point #1, fewer numbers of more powerful mission ships would be fantastic.
-Liang
because if we had 1 person giving a mission once oly everyone would b done in about a week the eve economy would collapse and mission runners would whine so much that ccp could hear them in iceland (thisis actually a good thing)
Eve information kiosk
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Pseudo Sasaya
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Posted - 2008.07.06 22:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Missions are a game of efficiency, with the bonus of more isk the better you perform, the lower your margins of error and the closer you cut it. They are NOT simulated PvP.
And this is why missions do not make sense.
Missions should BE simulated PvP.. mission rats should try their hardest to act like human players. As it stands right now EvE feels like 'players are in one universe, NPCs are in another', which is very disjoint and contributes to the gulf between PvP and PvE. The gulf exists because CCP designed it there, then they whine that not enough people are PvPing....
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.07.06 23:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Well, frig only L4's, why not. But the rest there is terrible.
Missions are a game of efficiency, with the bonus of more isk the better you perform, the lower your margins of error and the closer you cut it. They are NOT simulated PvP.
Your changes would totally kill efficiency, and neccesitate ridiculous overtanking for mundane missions, for when those random reinforcements do *not* jump in.
As it is, I object to level 4's paying out as much as they do. The change would be to prevent the current afking of missions.
There's no way of simulating pvp, but that doesn't mean it has to be a continous grind of the same thing over and over. If this was the end all reason, it'd be easier for all of us just to fit our ships, hit a button and watch a timer run down, no need for authors to create missions and stories around them. This wouldn't kill efficiency as such, as you could still just aswell grind away and calculate for this occurance aswell, either by limiting the cost of ships(also a form of tweaking) or putting a slight overtank on it. Anyone aware of what they're doing and present would most likely not have any issues with it, and there's the option of making them faction...
Point is, tweaking and optimizing will always be around, but in the current state there is little point in doing anything but highsec missions. There is one ship, one setup that is black on white better than the next. Imho, fw was a poor way of breathing air into lowsec, it did however give some pilots a brand new experience of pewpew, now give the carebears an incentive of experiencing the same.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 447044
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Reots
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Posted - 2008.07.06 23:45:00 -
[24]
Missions too easy? Only if you're prepared; if you want to up the difficulty on any level 4 mission just go in blind without adjusting your shield resistances and packing one type of ammunition. Run 4 or 5 in a row and you'll find it not so easy.
on the other hand if you are grinding standing for a reason, you shouldn't be complaining too much if it goes by quickly
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.07.07 01:46:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Reots
Missions too easy? Only if you're prepared; if you want to up the difficulty on any level 4 mission just go in blind without adjusting your shield resistances and packing one type of ammunition. Run 4 or 5 in a row and you'll find it not so easy.
on the other hand if you are grinding standing for a reason, you shouldn't be complaining too much if it goes by quickly
This kind of artificial challenges never really contribute. It's in no way a way of balancing or aiding the game. My problem with missions in it's current state is that it's to easily accessible ISK. Stay in empire, spend a month training for a Raven(less if you're using a character you're already using for something else) and grind away. No risk, just a steady and increadibly linear way of grinding. Virtually no other income in the game is as free of risk, and yet it's one of the most rewarding.
If standings is the main goal for missions, it's never really an issue, there's a cap on how much you can get, the returns are somewhat low and there are drawbacks. As for grinding ISK however...
Don't get me wrong, if I want a challenge, I've got my pvp. That's the main reason I'm here in the first place. However, missions in it's current state is THE way to make isk. It's repetetive and linear, risk free and very rewarding. It's basically mining but with less risk of suprises in terms of other players, and better returns.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 591680
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.07 06:30:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Pottsey on 07/07/2008 06:30:02
Missions too easy? Only if you're prepared; if you want to up the difficulty on any level 4 mission just go in blind without adjusting your shield resistances and packing one type of ammunition.ö
I always do that without a problem. 1 or 2 invul fields is all you need as a passive tank. You rely more on HP regen then resistance. I dont see the point in changeing setups between missions. Waste of time, that just slows you down.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.07.07 07:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: NoNah
My problem with missions in it's current state is that it's to easily accessible ISK. Stay in empire, spend a month training for a Raven(less if you're using a character you're already using for something else) and grind away. No risk, just a steady and increadibly linear way of grinding. Virtually no other income in the game is as free of risk, and yet it's one of the most rewarding.
And yet, somehow, in this riskfree activity, missionships are lost by the bucketloads *every* day. Cheap ones to rats, expensive ones to gankers, for the most part. (suiciding, btw, I guess you include that in you "virtually")
Also, missioning is less likely to be macroed then mining is.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.07 08:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: NoNah
My problem with missions in it's current state is that it's to easily accessible ISK. Stay in empire, spend a month training for a Raven(less if you're using a character you're already using for something else) and grind away. No risk, just a steady and increadibly linear way of grinding. Virtually no other income in the game is as free of risk, and yet it's one of the most rewarding.
And yet, somehow, in this riskfree activity, missionships are lost by the bucketloads *every* day. Cheap ones to rats, expensive ones to gankers, for the most part. (suiciding, btw, I guess you include that in you "virtually")
Also, missioning is less likely to be macroed then mining is.
trigger every spawn in GE 5th room and even an expensive one will go down 
oh and make 150mil looting its wreck. 
also I lost 2 mission ships in my eve career. one in a lv3 one in a lv4. and they have been making missions easier ever since I started so  I doubt too many are being lost
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.07.07 10:30:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 07/07/2008 10:30:29
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
also I lost 2 mission ships in my eve career. one in a lv3 one in a lv4. and they have been making missions easier ever since I started so I doubt too many are being lost
What, you didn't read Eyejog's blog?
tsk tsk.
So you think 1600 Navy Raven losses compared to 250 Navy Megas don't speak quite clearly about where these ships were lost? This was before torp change iirc, and suicide ganks were *way* lower frequency back then.
Or look at the T1 table. 80 thousand Ravens lost between Jan and August 2007, only other BS on the top ten is the second most popular mission running ship, the Dominix, which comes in at less then half the Raven losses. Where are the blasterthrons, the phoons, the geddons? I dunno, 'cause they don't even fit on the list.
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Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.07 12:59:00 -
[30]
1. your a pod pilot. this makes you a super elite pilot capable of running ships much better than the average crew. without needing one crew to operate the guns another for the shields, scanners etc. your ship will have a lot of spare space etc. As for why pirates are so weak, they aren't trained like the military and they aren't super enhanced elitists like us they are just pirate rable, there are elite pirates which are a decent challenge.
as for concord they have technology from all 5 empires (heard jovian helped out with concord which explains a bit).
2. reading the recent series of short stories black mountain I remember reading one story of sisters of eve rescuing people from wrecks of structures after a pod pilot had destroyed them so this should ease your conscience a little... it's more like 800,000 dead 200,000 seriously wounded 200,000 minor wounded.
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