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Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:32:00 - [1] I don't read the forums much for a few days and I miss a thread directed at me? I didn't realize how much people around here missed my presence... a war-dec just to get me to post more is really quite flattering. Alak D'bor is Danari, for those here who do not know. He makes Ravens. Lots of Ravens. This makes him very special. I had a previous war-dec a few months ago, that was fun, I actually got to defend my towers and earned some new friends in the process. I was hoping for some more fun, seems I won't get it this time around. Danari, I play a whole 5-15 minutes per day on average right now, so your war-dec is going to greatly impact my life. Please sir, make it go away, oh... wait... time for me to log for a bit! Please know I will be worried again sometime later in the day when I log in for a few more minutes. If there are any large alliance reps reading these forums please contact me, I may be willing to spend a large sum of money financing your alliance if you are willing to undertake a small war for me. Thanks in advance
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.08 17:05:00 - [2] Danari has no reason for the war-dec, it is a meaningless war-dec, which is why all of my POS's are still operating at 100% capacity. I doubt he even has the first clue the name of a single alt I use to run my POS chain, which makes the whole thing rather boring. But like I said, I barely play these days, so even if Danari can somehow manage to find out where my chain is... the most he'll get out of it is saving me a lot of time and effort. The only reason I've kept my POS's up and running for the past 4 months is because I've been begged to keep the moon minerals coming for some friends who don't have the connections or know-how to keep the thing operating as I do. I'd really rather be rid of the stupid things so I can scale back my play time even further. It seems Danari is not going to be up to the challenge though. He accuses me of being a carebear... yet all he does is issue war-decs on his alt, he doesn't even know what he is getting himself into or what his targets are. Not very professional at all. Sad. I guess all that time building ravens has made him forgot how to do the pew-pew correctly.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.08 22:20:00 - [3] Originally by: SonO*host I have no idea what (if any) religion Shadarle adhere's to, but I'd suggest toning down the repeated anti-semitic comments before the mods notice. I'm curious what you're talking about. As I don't believe I've said a single antisemitic thing... but hey, some people are very sensitive these days so please do explain what I said that offends you. Originally by: Absimi Liard Originally by: cosmoray I think if he doesn't tell us the drama we should all chip in and have mercs dec Alak D'bor / Danari out of boredom! I'm so totally with Cosmoray on this. I want gossip, and sleaze, damnit! There's not enough ego in building, why should the pew pew types get all the fun?!? I'll toss some ISKies into that pot if we don't get details, happily. -abs Sorry guys, there is no drama or anything like it to post. Danari is obviously upset that his Raven selling business is not as profitable as what I do. Don't think there is anything else to it. Originally by: Alak D'bor Just found a dread tower with torp batteries, 8 advanced labs and an ammo array. That ring any bells? It's a good thing you didn't want those towers anyway... Oh hey, you found my high-sec tower! Might notice it isn't operational, hasn't been used for copying in a month+ now, it's just in death-star mode because I haven't had the time to go around un-anchoring everything. Please, by all means, attack it. If I get even a few minutes of POS defense in then it will be worth it to me. I'll try to be online for ya so I can direct the guns, havn't had a chance to fire my large projectiles yet!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.08 22:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: SonO*host I have no idea what (if any) religion Shadarle adhere's to, but I'd suggest toning down the repeated anti-semitic comments before the mods notice. What the hell are you talking about? Thank you for phrasing it the way I was thinking it, not the polite way I asked it.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.09 00:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: SonO*host I have no idea what (if any) religion Shadarle adhere's to, but I'd suggest toning down the repeated anti-semitic comments before the mods notice. What the hell are you talking about? Some people refered to Shadarle as a Shylock, which referes to the jewish moneylender of that name in Shakespear's 'Merchant of Venice'. The one who wanted the pound of flesh. Some people may find it offensive, I guess. Wow... people are really thin skinned if that is offensive to them. Sorry, but it's a term that has entered the lexicon. The term was used at me and I didn't find it antisemitic and I was born and raised Jewish! I found it to be an attack on me clearly, but that was the point of saying it. I have no problem with people attacking me on the forums... and speaking as the person who was the target of the term I can say I took and find no offense in it... in case the mods take that into account. That said, this entire thread is pretty darn off-topic. A war-dec has nothing to do with market PvP. Heck, Danari hasn't even done anything but hiss and growl nor has he listed any grievances (since his only grievance is being inferior to me in financial matters and he isn't about to admit to it). So perhaps he should rename this thread: "This is what real market discussion posturing looks like!"
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.09 12:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Ricdics Originally by: Rynar II Shadarle you're a joke. Even if this war dec goes nowhere and does you no damage, your "I didn't want those towers" and " I want to quit EvE anyway" comments makes me laugh out loud at you. You have proven yourself to be the pathetic little creature we all know you to be from these forums. Alt of Alak by any chance? A bit of an FYI. He hasn't been playing very much at all of late nor has he been posting. Stop making empty threats and attacks with your alt and do it. Go attack those POS's, stop talking crap. I don't see the point of the personal & verbal attacks though, this isn't CAOD and we don't want that rubbish here. MD is not the place for twelve year olds. Sums it up nicely. Not to mention I never said I was gonna quit EVE, just reducing my time in EVE. I can play EVE for free for the next decade with all my alts, so I have no reason to quit for good. My POS chain (which still has yet to be found) takes up the majority of my time, the POS that was maybe found takes up a good hour or two a month of my time (in other words not very much) as I no longer actually use it for anything. Maybe I should just start building massive amounts of Ravens and selling them at a 1% profit in all major hubs. Watch the Raven profit plummet to nothing. Now THAT is real market PVP, unlike this lame attempt for a thread.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.09 15:59:00 - [7] Edited by: Shadarle on 09/07/2008 16:02:45 Edited by: Shadarle on 09/07/2008 16:01:21 Originally by: Chira Netanru Originally by: Shadarle Maybe I should just start building massive amounts of Ravens and selling them at a 1% profit in all major hubs. Watch the Raven profit plummet to nothing. Now THAT is real market PVP, unlike this lame attempt for a thread. You don't have enough isk to saturate the Raven market. Sorry to burst your bubble At around 1 bil per they are pretty darn cheap, what would it take... 20-30 BPO's maybe? Not exactly big money. As to logistics, you're right I wouldn't have the patience or time to personally ship them around everywhere. But if you think I personally would have to then you are a bit naive. The only question is if I consider it worth my time and effort. I don't really think Danari is worth it... I mean... all he can do is create a thread to let out his hot air.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.09 19:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Chira Netanru Edited by: Chira Netanru on 09/07/2008 19:27:12 Originally by: Shadarle At around 1 bil per they are pretty darn cheap, what would it take... 20-30 BPO's maybe? Not exactly big money. Right, because you're going to spend the time to research 30 BS prints to try to impact Danari's Raven market. They're going for 1.4bil researched, and take around 550-580mil isk of minerals to keep producing 24/7, so 17bil in minerals per day plus 42bil for the BPOs. Assuming you can manage an epic 3 day turnaround from manufacture to sale and you're up to 51bil in ships constantly plus your 17bil consumption, and we get to the crux of the matter where I disbelieve that Shadarle has 110bil of easily liquid isk for an endeavor of this scope. You're just as full of hotair as the OP. BTW; you both should look into location agents. As I have said, the question is not if I have the money, but if it's worth it for a nobody like Danari. 110 bil is less than the number I calculated when I determined how much money I'd need to completely crash the Raven market. Of course I always over-do things, hate being caught a little short. And as to the problem of researching the BPO's, that is not a problem. Raven BPO's are very common. I know this all too well.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.11 17:29:00 - [9] I'm way too lazy to do daily turnover. I was thinking a minimum of 3-4 day turnaround if not a week at some points, thus my numbers are over the 110bil mark. If I was less lazy I could do it with 60 bil or so. 1 day turnaround isn't realistic though, not considering the plan was to crash the market so there would be an over-abundance of supply.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.12 19:50:00 - [10] You are missing the point that if this was even remotely successful the supply of Ravens would outpace the demand, meaning it would become hard to sell all the ravens daily. If you can't sell all of your product daily then you won't be getting your money back for them daily, meaning you'll need more and more money as less and less sell. The signs that you're succeeding in crashing the market is that you need more and more money to keep the production going because more and more of your ISK is tied up in ravens on the market which aren't selling. That's the point, you need tons of money to manipulate the market. Not to mention that as you do this the price of ravens will start to drop, so you will make less and less off them or even start losing money on each Raven.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.16 16:20:00 - [11] Just a short update, a rather amusing one, I now got a war-dec from Whiskey Tango Foxtrot (corp) and Pandemic Legion (Alliance). I found this so amusing I had to post it. Not only does Danari have no clue where my POS chain is, he thinks my old high-sec POS (the only thing he knows the location of) is worth hiring an alliance and 2 corps at once to go to war with me over. Quite amusing indeed. Hey Danari, when you find my POS chain let me know, until then... can you please hire 2-3 more alliance to war-dec me? It would make things a lot more fun!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.16 17:02:00 - [12] I was deciding if it would be funny enough to hire a different alliance to war dec this alliance, haha. Just for fun. Maybe we could start an interstellar war over this!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.16 18:20:00 - [13] Woohoo! I got to experience some more POS PvP! Funny enough my POS had killed 2-3 of them before I even arrived to direct the firing. It ended very quickly once I could co-ordinate my fire. Thanks for the T2 items I got off your ships, very kind of you to leave them behind!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.16 18:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Petit Delinquant Edited by: Petit Delinquant on 16/07/2008 18:34:56 can i buy the loot? I'll prob just sell it on the market, most of it will fetch good values. The T2 salvage of those ships I popped was better than the loot
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.16 18:58:00 - [15] It was quite fun, the most fun I've had since I defended this POS last time. It's amazing that people take the bait on it. For less than 1 billion ISK I can leave a honey pot out there and get silly corps to attack a deathstar occasionally. Very fun stuff. Thanks Danari! You're rejuvenating my interest in EVE!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.16 20:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Saino Feel Originally by: Shadarle Woohoo! I got to experience some more POS PvP! Funny enough my POS had killed 2-3 of them before I even arrived to direct the firing. It ended very quickly once I could co-ordinate my fire. Thanks for the T2 items I got off your ships, very kind of you to leave them behind! Isn't this highsec, can you control guns? If so, if you have many alts that can as well, I bet that will be real nasty! Yup, it is high-sec :) It's fun to watch 4 large arty's open up on someone, hehe. They actually came back again. So silly. They had a better plan this time... but in the end all they did was contribute to Danari's Raven production business. Byebye Raven!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 00:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Vuxacha That does sound like fun... I think you should get bonus points if you manage to turn it into a war that sustains itself (no paying for mercs). The best part about this is, I'm having an absolute blast, I'm blowing people away and they are donating 10's of millions of ISK to my cause while losing 10's of millions themselves. This is great, haha. The best part is, I can afford to lose 10-100 times more money than they can... so even if it was a 1:1 losses I'd be winning really, by attrition. But instead I've lost nothing but a tiny bit of ammo, they've lost 2-3 t2 ships, 2-3 ravens, t2 items, lots of ammo. Kinda sad really, these are pretty pathetic mercs Danari.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 04:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Tasko Pal Wait, so they're using t2 ships on a POS? This is brilliant strategy. They seem to like Basilisks and Ravens. I like them too. Good salvage on those t2 ships. I just find it quite amusing they are using ravens to siege a POS.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 05:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Vuxacha What I don't get, is the POS warfare/merc situation itself. In lowsec I could understand it, there are a lot of variables. In highsec you can pretty much scout the POS beforehand, know the defensive forces (1 - Name: Shadarle. Ship type: Probably a probe) and learn the ammo type. It should almost be a mathematical equation. X damage requires Y amount of ship loss or tank (nano or shield/armor). Z damage required to offline POS/guns. Therefore merc bill (fixed contract; fees for extra variables such as rival mercs etc) itself should be fairly easy to calculate before even accepting the contract. Yet these guys are coming at it like a chance encounter on a roam, if its as funny as you say. So either they know they're gonna win and these are normal losses, or they really never stood a chance. Eitherway, I'm freakin jealous. I may add "maintain high sec 'bait' POS" to my list of goals in Eve. Generally no one even hits my POS because of all the guns I leave around it. I even have backup guns sitting there in-case they manage to get past my online guns. I have backup shield hardeners. I have backup everything. Why? Because it honestly is so cheap to do that it's worth it. So I spend 150 mil more on defenses... that number is smaller than the turnover I see from the sale of a few items. I just don't understand why people hit defended POS's. It's just not worth the time and effort. But hey, I hope they keep coming, this is very fun. It's great when you keep them guessing, holding fire for a few minuts so they think they've got you... then you open up with all your batteries at once and knock them straight into armor or hull, or sometimes even insta pop their main tank. Maybe they will eventually get through my defenses... heck an entire alliance war-dec'd me now. But again, what is the point? It's a defensive POS only. So they are going to get 150 mil isk worth of guns... maybe. All I can do is thank Danari profusely for this fun. Maybe if he finds my POS chain we'll have even more fun and things will get far more interesting then when the capital ships get involved!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Joe Elliot If an alliance wardec'ed your corp, it is probably someone paying them, and not them wanting to loot your POS? I dunno, but it seems more likely to me at least. Indeed, but what I find funny is that Danari couldn't even get his own alliance to do it, he had to get someone elses alliance to do it. Rather sad and pathetic. I'm just glad he's paying people so much money to give me so much fun! I'd love to know if he has seen an upsurge in his Raven business with all the Ravens being lost to my POS
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 16:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Amrumm Is Danari for real? You are sure it is not one of your friends paying a little ISK to get you back into the game? (With friends like that...) The OP of this thread is Danari. It's one of his alts.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 19:47:00 - [22] Awww, they put it into re-inforced after 2.5 hours. It was only about 30 of them, maybe more. A bit hard to count when the system is lagged as bad as it was. About a 15 second delay on most actions. That was entirely too much fun. I have to thank you Danari for hiring an entire alliance and 2 corps to attack me. Please, if you ever locate my POS's do so again!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 20:21:00 - [23] Perhaps people should realize this is MD and not CAOD. As I stated, the POS is in reinforced mode now. Which means no more fun killing off silly corps who decide to test my setup
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.17 21:44:00 - [24] I don't care to save the POS, if I did I'd have hired mercs to defend it. There was nothing of value in it other than some old t2 items I had forgotten about until a minute before I warped away just now. So I grabbed them and left. In 2 days there will likely be a new POS up.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.18 02:43:00 - [25] I now have some ideas for my next setup. I came within a few seconds of about 10+ kills, meaning I need to adjust a few things next time. I know exactly what needs to be swapped out too to ramp up that dps 20-30%.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.18 14:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Shadarle on 18/07/2008 14:15:11 Originally by: Chira Netanru Originally by: Shadarle I now have some ideas for my next setup. I came within a few seconds of about 10+ kills, meaning I need to adjust a few things next time. I know exactly what needs to be swapped out too to ramp up that dps 20-30%. You mean like training SDM V? How many alts did you have gunning / how many guns manned, btw? Didn't have SDM V on any chars, but I have SDM IV on all my chars. I had enough alts present to man all online batteries. The biggest problem was trying to target with 15+ seconds of lag. The GUI for controlled guns needs massive amounts of work. The target bar would come up, then disappear, and it would let you retarget as if your target had warepd away. Then 15-60 seconds later it would either pick the original target or sometimes a new target if you accidentally clicked a new one. Sometimes the guns would automatically switch to targeting mode, so you'd start targeting someone new even while the other guns were firing. It was very tough with the lag to do any sort of real targeting with guns that take 15-45 seconds to lock.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:29:00 - [27] Originally by: Utterly Amazing You should be used to lag Shardarle. A system that rarely exceeds 100 pilots can't really be any worse than Jita. At least you were having fun. I wouldn't really know what Jita is like as I barely ever visit the place. Maybe once every few months. I frankly have no clue how anyone makes money there, you have to play way too much. I like spending 10-15 minutes a day trading, it's all you need in the right places.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Selaik lag goes both ways. Yes, but having to use the POS defense GUI only goes one way. And it's this gui that is horribly effected by lag. It doesn't work half the time in heavy lag situations. The target system will just stop working on one of the guns usually, meaning you have to wait 1-2 minutes extra to get it working... or you can fire without one of your guns, which means the target will easily have time to get defenses up. It also makes targeting ships trying to flea impossible, since instead of taking 25-45 seconds it akes 1-2 minutes and then they are gone and it takes 30-60 seconds for it to even register that the target left. Whereas attacking the POS you get to target a massive structure which takes very little time and it doesn't move nor warp away when it's about to die. In any case, as I've said, this attack was the most fun I've had in ages. I usually play 10-15 minutes a day, I played for hours and hours during the multiple attacks. I wish I could throw up more POS's time and again just to keep having fun like that.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.19 07:53:00 - [29] Edited by: Shadarle on 19/07/2008 07:52:50 Originally by: Devian 666 Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/07/2008 07:19:51 Originally by: Shadarle hurf blurf pos stuff You'll find that they were probably suffering from issues with targeting and module activation lag. I am quite certain they were. But I don't exactly think it makes it any more fun when we both have to suffer through lag. If the game can't handle a mere 30 people attacking a POS then I can't even imagine how stupid large fleet battles are. 30 People is nothing. Games like DAOC handled battles far larger without a hickup 5+ years ago. Heck, even battles involving 200+ people were much better than that 30 person battle was. I only care about my fun in this, their problems don't concern me. I merely had that POS there to provide me with fun and it did multiple times before and then 3 times in a two day period. So it served its purpose. But it would have been more fun if it didn't take approx 4-5 minutes just to target someone and shoot 2-3 volley's at someone to see if they'd die. If you guys leave that moon open and remove the war-dec I will rebuild a POS there and we can do it all again in a few more days. I had enough fun it's well worth the couple hundred mil to do it again.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 04:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Xelios Xarxes I often wonder when I read these threads if these people also cry IRL when they drive by a nicer home or someone in a nicer car. Why not just accept there's always someone more successful? Jealousy is an ugly, ugly thing. So very true. But it's fun seeing Leowen around, as I have a feeling he is richer than I am. Competition always brings out the best, so it's nice knowing there are others out there doing better than I am, gives me something to strive for.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 05:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Bindusara Originally by: Xelios Xarxes I often wonder when I read these threads if these people also cry IRL when they drive by a nicer home or someone in a nicer car. Why not just accept there's always someone more successful? Jealousy is an ugly, ugly thing. I think you kind of missed the point of the thread. Danari didn't attack Shad because one is richer than the other, it was because Shad is an ass and more specifically, he's an ass to those who ask genuine questions. Which is the ironic part because this whole process has gotten me to post on these forums a lot more than I had been. I had barely been around the last few months, but now I'm checking the forums many times a day. As I stated in the other thread, "Mission Accomplished!" for Danari!
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 06:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Bindusara I have always wondered Shad, what exactly do you plan to achieve by flaming newbies asking newbie-like questions? That's a rather stupid question, don't you think? I hope to make them aware that their questions were stupid obviously. If someone wants a real answer they should devote some real time to finding out the answer before they make a post. If instead they are too lazy to do any work themselves and want free handouts then I'm going to explain to them very politely (read: not politely at all) that they don't deserve a real answer.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 07:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Vhaluus Originally by: Bindusara Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Bindusara I have always wondered Shad, what exactly do you plan to achieve by flaming newbies asking newbie-like questions? That's a rather stupid question, don't you think? I hope to make them aware that their questions were stupid obviously. If someone wants a real answer they should devote some real time to finding out the answer before they make a post. If instead they are too lazy to do any work themselves and want free handouts then I'm going to explain to them very politely (read: not politely at all) that they don't deserve a real answer. Difference in perception maybe? A lot of the times people miss out on some very small aspect of a business and come to these forums looking for investments etc thinking they have the perfect plan (I know i've been there). That doesn't mean that they haven't done their work, it just means they are not as good as you but still better than the people you describe in your post since they actually did some work. Another reason why people appear to have not done their research is that not everyone is able to express themselves as well as others. I know I am one of those people. They may have done their homework, they just don't know how to put it forward. This is mainly due to one of the two reasons, their english not being good and them having average communication skills. So why pick on such people? And to answer your question, no I don't think that this is a stupid question or I wouldn't have asked it. Please don't be hostile towards me Shad, I have nothing personal against you, i'm just very curious as to why you feel the need to constantly talk down to people asking genuine questions. those who can't do anything about being bullied irl, become bullies themselves on the internet Those who know nothing about psychology try to act like they do on internet gaming forums?
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 07:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Bindusara Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Bindusara I have always wondered Shad, what exactly do you plan to achieve by flaming newbies asking newbie-like questions? That's a rather stupid question, don't you think? I hope to make them aware that their questions were stupid obviously. If someone wants a real answer they should devote some real time to finding out the answer before they make a post. If instead they are too lazy to do any work themselves and want free handouts then I'm going to explain to them very politely (read: not politely at all) that they don't deserve a real answer. Difference in perception maybe? A lot of the times people miss out on some very small aspect of a business and come to these forums looking for investments etc thinking they have the perfect plan (I know i've been there). That doesn't mean that they haven't done their work, it just means they are not as good as you but still better than the people you describe in your post since they actually did some work. Another reason why people appear to have not done their research is that not everyone is able to express themselves as well as others. I know I am one of those people. They may have done their homework, they just don't know how to put it forward. This is mainly due to one of the two reasons, their english not being good and them having average communication skills. So why pick on such people? And to answer your question, no I don't think that this is a stupid question or I wouldn't have asked it. Please don't be hostile towards me Shad, I have nothing personal against you, i'm just very curious as to why you feel the need to constantly talk down to people asking genuine questions. Survival of the fittest. If you can't handle criticism then you probably shouldn't be launching an IPO. Anyone who tries to launch an IPO is fair game to criticism of their ideas and if they can stand up to it then they might have a chance to succeed. I'm sorry if you think I'm being mean when I point out major problems in peoples posts, but if everyone here held hands and sang songs we wouldn't get anywhere. And when I said "I'm sorry" you do know I was being less than truthful, right? You can dislike my methods all you like, you can even express your dislike for my methods over and over. It really doesn't matter one way or the other to me.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:15:00 - [35] Next week class we will be discussing sarcasm. Class dismissed.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 20:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Leowen Your lack of respect for others is appalling Respect has to be earned. A random person posting drivel on the forums does not deserve respect, they can earn it by posting well written intelligent posts. Thus people like Shar, FL, DS, Akita, and others gained my respect. Others such as Taikun and Yougotripped serve as examples on the opposite side.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.20 22:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Leowen So just don't post? And let people go on thinking they have a brilliant idea when they do not, or let people think it's wise to invest in a shoddy plan? What is with all the coddling around here. Boo-hoo, I might have hurt someones feelings on an internet forum! You could just as easily take your own advice.

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