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CSM Formal Meeting 7. Sunday 13th July. 18:00 hours Eve Time

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Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.09 14:25:00 - [1] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/07/2008 14:25:24 CSM Meeting 7. July 13 2008. 18:00 Hours Eve Time. Agenda: ANNOUNCEMENTS: 1. Response from CCP on future live meeting timescales 2. Response from replacement Alternates (+invitation to channel/mailing list) CSM Raised ISSUEs (to be submitted in templated form to CSM mailing list by 18:00 hours Friday 11th July.) 1. tba 2. tba 3. tba 4. tba 5. tba 6. tba 7. tba 8. tba 9. tba POPULAR Issue (Biggest unaddressed Assembly Hall Issue û will be added after CSM raised ISSUEs.) 1. tba AOB (Any other business) (additions can be submitted prior 18:00 hours Friday 11th July) 1. tba 2. tba *** All CSM delegates and Alternates are invited to attend. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Slanty McGarglefist	Posted - 2008.07.09 14:58:00 - [2] Still awaiting Meeting Minutes . That's handled by CCP isn't it? __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Bane Glorious	Posted - 2008.07.09 18:29:00 - [3] The Crane needs a powergrid increase
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Bane Glorious The Crane needs a powergrid increase No problems Bane, please make sure we get the submission doc for the ISSUE on the internal mailing list by tomorrow evening 18:00 as well though. All the best. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.13 18:27:00 - [5] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/07/2008 18:29:03 Tonights meeting canceled (we couldn't get seven members+alternates to make up the quorum.) Jade, Bane, LaVista, Dierdra Val, Serenity Steel were in attendance. Meeting seven rescheduled for 16:00 hours July 20th. Once again all members+alternates (Including Arithron now as a replacement alternate) are welcome to attend. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Inanna Zuni	Posted - 2008.07.13 22:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Jade Constantine Tonights meeting canceled (we couldn't get seven members+alternates to make up the quorum.) Jade, Bane, LaVista, Dierdra Val, Serenity Steel were in attendance. Just a note that, sfaict, all the rest of us had sent apologies earlier in the week that we would be unable to attend (ie. it wasn't that we just couldn't be bothered to turn up, as it might otherwise appear from Jade's post!) Sadly, 'real life' must intrude on life in New Eve occasionally ... IZ My principles
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.07.15 14:42:00 - [7] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 15/07/2008 14:47:30 What I want to know, and you all should ask yourselves during that metting - why Was this thread ignored: POS: Flogging the Dead Horse when number of CSM have shown support for the idea, and we even received feedback that it was submitted to CCP, and yet it is mysteriously missing from the CCP-CSM meeting notes. Basically, what some members of CSM are doing, as I see it, was practice their lies on the greater community, why say "we have submitted the issue to CCP" when you did not? And if you did where is the evidence of it? What I see some CSM members doing are pushing through "pet projects" - many of them quite controversial while ignoring a pretty much 100% supported idea; I would think something that is unilaterally supported and has little or no controversy over it, and the idea which was ignored by CCP for over 2 years, although affecting gameplay of thousands would take priority over "pet projects."
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Jinx Barker Edited by: Jinx Barker on 15/07/2008 14:47:30 What I want to know, and you all should ask yourselves during that metting - why Was this thread ignored: POS: Flogging the Dead Horse when number of CSM have shown support for the idea, and we even received feedback that it was submitted to CCP, and yet it is mysteriously missing from the CCP-CSM meeting notes. Basically, what some members of CSM are doing, as I see it, was practice their lies on the greater community, why say "we have submitted the issue to CCP" when you did not? And if you did where is the evidence of it? What I see some CSM members doing are pushing through "pet projects" - many of them quite controversial while ignoring a pretty much 100% supported idea; I would think something that is unilaterally supported and has little or no controversy over it, and the idea which was ignored by CCP for over 2 years, although affecting gameplay of thousands would take priority over "pet projects." I already explained this to you in another thread. We actually voted on this issue and it was brought onto Iceland. But a mistake was made when the issues were sent to CCP, which means it was not discussed at Iceland.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:31:00 - [9] Originally by: LaVista Vista I already explained this to you in another thread. We actually voted on this issue and it was brought onto Iceland. But a mistake was made when the issues were sent to CCP, which means it was not discussed at Iceland. Could you please point me to the statement, and if mistake was made, and it was not discussed, shouldn't you follow up with CCP - and get assurances that despite the mistake they are indeed "officially" taking it under advisement. Again, I did not see any statement from you or any other CSM, in the recent days - this is first time I am seeing you reply, and I have been pushing this since I saw the issue missing from the Minutes....
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:51:00 - [10] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 15/07/2008 15:52:49 Originally by: Jinx Barker Edited by: Jinx Barker on 15/07/2008 15:43:13 Originally by: LaVista Vista I already explained this to you in another thread. We actually voted on this issue and it was brought onto Iceland. But a mistake was made when the issues were sent to CCP, which means it was not discussed at Iceland. Could you please point me to the statement, and if mistake was made, and it was not discussed, shouldn't you follow up with CCP - and get assurances that despite the mistake they are indeed "officially" taking it under advisement. Again, I did not see any statement from you or any other CSM, in the recent days - this is first time I am seeing you reply, and I have been pushing this since I saw the issue missing from the Minutes.... Edit: Again, I tried locating a statement by you, or any other CSM regarding the issue - and I have failed to do so, so please point me there. The other statement still stands, if a mistake was made, when the issues were sent to CCP, what kind of mistake? Was it just an oversight and CCP is working on it/taking it under advisement, or does the "mistake" mean that CCP can ignore it, since it was not officially inaugurated by CSM to CCP. I can remember saying something about this too. We voted on the issue to take to Iceland and for some reason it wasn't listed on the minutes when we were at the face to face meeting. I'm still not sure why. At the time we resolved to just add it to the submitted issues for the 2nd meeting in august and ask for developer feedback once again. I think a lot of responses have been buried in the enormous Assembly hall spam is the main problem. Bottom line - this issue SHOULD have been raised in Iceland and I'm not sure why it wasn't. In any case we'll ensure its submitted with the ISSUEs for the 2nd meeting. There it is Jinx, not sure what else we can do bar that. (It doesn't need to go before the CSM again btw, we already voted it onto the formal agenda and there's no need to waste time discussing it again. We will just add it straight to the list of issues for submission again.) Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Jade Constantine I can remember saying something about this too. We voted on the issue to take to Iceland and for some reason it wasn't listed on the minutes when we were at the face to face meeting. I'm still not sure why. At the time we resolved to just add it to the submitted issues for the 2nd meeting in august and ask for developer feedback once again. I think a lot of responses have been buried in the enormous Assembly hall spam is the main problem. Bottom line - this issue SHOULD have been raised in Iceland and I'm not sure why it wasn't. In any case we'll ensure its submitted with the ISSUEs for the 2nd meeting. There it is Jinx, not sure what else we can do bar that. (It doesn't need to go before the CSM again btw, we already voted it onto the formal agenda and there's no need to waste time discussing it again. We will just add it straight to the list of issues for submission again.) This is fine then, I understand that things might get lost and might get mixed up. What really bothered me is that it took me so many day to actually hear from you guys while shouting in three separate threads. So, basically, issue was submitted to CCP, as far as you and CSM are concerned they - the CCP - are working on it. And in August you will let us know what is going on? Correct?
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.15 16:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Jinx Barker So, basically, issue was submitted to CCP, as far as you and CSM are concerned they - the CCP - are working on it. And in August you will let us know what is going on? Correct? CCP hasn't stated nor suggested they were working on it. So really, the only thing we can do now is to wait till the next CCP-CSM meeting, for an answer. I was really excited to see CCP's response on the issue, as it's really nicely laid out. But oh well, nothing we can do. According to my email, Ankh suggested that she hadn't received the submission template when she sent the issues off to CCP. But they were submitted in the second batch, but those weren't discussed.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.15 16:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Jinx Barker This is fine then, I understand that things might get lost and might get mixed up. What really bothered me is that it took me so many days to actually hear from you guys while shouting in three separate threads. The spammed Assembly hall is the major problem I think - like I said I'm pretty sure I already said there'd been a problem with this Issue and for some reason it hadn't gotten on the agenda but I have no idea how to find that post either with the noise ratio in that forum ... But anyways hopefully it'll be good for the next meeting. Quote: So, basically, issue was submitted to CCP, as far as you and CSM are concerned they - the CCP - are working on it. And in August you will let us know what is going on? Correct? For some reason it didn't appear on CCP's list of submitted issues so they had no chance to get substantive feedback for the Iceland meeting. We need to make sure it DEFINITELY appears on their list next time around and gives the appropriate developers the neccessary time to reply substantively to the ISSUE - its a major (visionary) game change of the sort we've been invited to submit and its going to need a serious assessment from the appropriate ccp staff. Fingers crossed all goes well for August and we'll get appropriate feedback from the 2nd formal meeting. All the best. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.07.15 16:20:00 - [14] Originally by: LaVista Vista ...Stuff... Originally by: Jade Constantine ...Stuff... OK, excellent, so long as it is not swept under the rug. We have been waiting for 2 years, little more now, we can wait a bit longer. Appreciate your replies guys, and lets see what happens in August.
Lia Gaeren Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens	Posted - 2008.07.16 00:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Jade Constantine I'm pretty sure I already said there'd been a problem with this Issue and for some reason it hadn't gotten on the agenda ... I remember seeing a CSM answer on this too - maybe it was on the SHC forums?
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.18 18:00:00 - [16] updated the op with additional agenda items (CSM please check mailing list for submission docs associated with these). Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.20 20:07:00 - [17] CSM Meeting 7 chatlog is viewable here 1. The Crane needs a powergrid increase - Escalation Approved 2. Nighthawk is terrible - needs a powergrid increase - Escalation Approved 3. Improved Wardec Support Functionality in FW - Escalation Denied 4. Rigged ships into Cargo - please allow this - Escalation Approved 5. Dynamic Agent Qualities - Escalation Approved 6. FW impact on Eve Storyline - Escalation Approved 7. Local Chat as intel tool - Escalation Denied 8. Un-nerf the Bio Lengh! - Escalation Approved 9. Gallente EWAR ships need a boost - Escalation Approved Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.20 22:31:00 - [18] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 20/07/2008 22:32:10 Originally by: Jade Constantine Waste of space Let me get this straight. Dynamic agents, FW storyline, and the especially bio length is considered by you-the CSM-to be of the utmost importance. And yet the stupidity of local as an intel tool is not worthy. Too hot a potato for you guys? Not even a hint of improved scanner functionality perhaps leading to a replacement "intel tool" for the lazy pilots that can't be asked to learn how to use the scanner? Aside from giving Gallente Recons the love they deserve-or at least "escalating" (whatever the hell that means)...allow me to present you a golf clap for ignoring real items of interest for those who actually play EvE as opposed to yapping about it. Exactly how much longer do EvE pilots have to put up with you and the majority of your fellow CSM reps catering to your own individual agenda's and preferences? It's time's like this where I seriously contemplate paying for my game via ISK-for-GTC as opposed to my current sub via cc. At least I wouldn't be subsidizing stupid free trips to Iceland on my friggin dime . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.20 22:52:00 - [19] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 20/07/2008 22:44:05 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 20/07/2008 22:32:10 Originally by: Jade Constantine Waste of space Let me get this straight. Dynamic agents, FW storyline, and the especially bio length is considered by you-the CSM-to be of the utmost importance. And yet the stupidity of local as an intel tool is not worthy. Too hot a potato for you guys? Not even a hint of improved scanner functionality perhaps leading to a replacement "intel tool" for the lazy pilots that can't be asked to learn how to use the scanner? Aside from giving Gallente Recons the love they deserve-or at least "escalating" (whatever the hell that means)...allow me to present you a golf clap for ignoring real items of interest for those who actually play EvE as opposed to yapping about it. Exactly how much longer do EvE pilots have to put up with you and the majority of your fellow CSM reps catering to your own individual agenda's and preferences? It's time's like this where I seriously contemplate paying for my game via ISK-for-GTC as opposed to my current sub via cc. At least I wouldn't be subsidizing stupid free trips to Iceland on my friggin dime . EDITBy all means continue to ignore threads like: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=797078 And all other sensible discussions/suggestions that seem to have a lot more approval/interest than what you currently consider important. I mean...ya'll can't be asked to even respond it seems eh? Even a negative response with your reasons is better than pretending they don't exist. How about you go read the actual chatlog and see who voted which way on those issues before accusing people of being a "waste of space." ? For the record I consider the local chat removal to be a very important issue and I was very disappointed that the CSM chose to vote it down today. End of the day though I have one vote from 9 and I'm not going to get my way on every issue. I suggest you discover which CSM's voted against and send them eve-mails in-game (or call them out on the forums or whatever) and suggest they change their minds. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.20 23:33:00 - [20] Originally by: RuleoftheBone EDITBy all means continue to ignore threads like: [url http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=797078[/url] And all other sensible discussions/suggestions that seem to have a lot more approval/interest than what you currently consider important. I mean...ya'll can't be asked to even respond it seems eh? Even a negative response with your reasons is better than pretending they don't exist. Hey Bone. Calm down. We are hardly 3 months into CSM and every meeting has been pretty packed so far. I had actually planned to take up the pilgrim, for CCP to revise, just like the council voted for CCP to take a look on the bonus for the arazu/lachesis. But RL health made me incapable of actually getting the job done for friday, which was the deadline. So the issue will be brought up. But for now, just wait. In regards to the local changes, you of course know why this issue wasn't supported for escalation, because you read the chatlogs, right? The vote would have passed with a few changes to the submission document. So you can be pretty sure it will be brought up again. But how do you make the assumption, that because it was voted for by the council, something is much more important than something else? Mind you, we have NOT yet made a priority list based on these new things yet. And the local chat as an intel tool issue was no escalated because of the submission template needing tweaking. Oh, and next time: Please, please stop all those strawmen argument. It could easily be seen as a troll.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.21 10:23:00 - [21] Chatpron says absolutely nothing useful. Not even a remote discussion of alternatives to local. CSM answer=sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. But do carry on CSM-believing you actually represent the playerbase. I'm not trolling. Just calling you ALL out as I see it. Excuses and inattention=continued fail. But at least you might be able to post awesome NPC wrecking shots ad naseum in player bios again . Because thats really important. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.21 10:59:00 - [22] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Chatpron says absolutely nothing useful. Ok, it just goes to tell me you didn't read the chatlog then. Originally by: RuleoftheBone CSM answer=sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. But do carry on CSM-believing you actually represent the playerbase. I'm not trolling. Just calling you ALL out as I see it. Excuses and inattention=continued fail. But at least you might be able to post awesome NPC wrecking shots ad naseum in player bios again . Because thats really important. I'm not saying it was a troll post. I'm saying you are setting up strawman arguments, which is really silly. Someone like yourself can do better than that. But I'm totally speechless over how successfully you called out all CSM members for.... Oh wait, another strawman argument. You are making assumptions and you are stating things like they were fact, but you have no ground for them(At least you are YET to prove it). I mean, how exactly has it been swept under the rug? I think it's silly you even SUGGEST that. Let me point you to the chat log, which you of course read: Quote: [ 2008.07.20 18:58:35 ] Tusko Hopkins > It requires additions. I think we should re-discuss it later on. Is it possible to put it on agenda again? [ 2008.07.20 18:58:43 ] Serenity Steele > Again, Big issue, needs to be addressed, this proposal contains the start of it, but not all that is needed [ 2008.07.20 18:58:49 ] Serenity Steele > for the issue to be raised with CCP IMO. [ 2008.07.20 18:59:07 ] Serenity Steele > Nay from me, really want to see it in full form. [ 2008.07.20 18:59:32 ] Jade Constantine > is that a "no" tusko? [ 2008.07.20 18:59:32 ] Bane Glorious > local annoys everyone at times, but i'm not really sure if discussion on changing local is going to get anywhere; ideas are one thing but i'd prefer a more unstructured discussion, so i'll have to say nay, sorry If you call that sweeping it under the rug, then I think you should run for CSM next time and show us how to do it.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.21 12:31:00 - [23] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). Get your definitions correct pal. The only "straw men" I see are on the CSM. To wit: "Bane Glorious > local annoys everyone at times, but i'm not really sure if discussion on changing local is going to get anywhere; ideas are one thing but i'd prefer a more unstructured discussion, so i'll have to say nay, sorry" I have read the chatlog...in it's entirety. Quote above is just a representative sample reinforcing lack of care or concern on the part of the CSM. True...you and JC may have voted yes to further discussions-yet neither of you back your yes reasons with any sembalance of ideas in order to make it an actual debate over pros-v-cons. While CCP may not like the use of local as an intel tool-they are also two-faced in this regard as the last formal comment by a DEV regarding the current state of the onboard scanner is they "are not prepared to look into it at this time" or words to that effect (you can find that particular exact quote yourself...I'm not doing your work for you). With regard to local as intel-v-scanner...the main issue you fail to acknowledge is pilots in EvE are generally lazy and CAN'T BE ASKED TO LEARN TO USE THE SCANNER properly (and Lavista...I know from personal experience that YOU fail at that too). Here...have a further silly comment from somone who obviously has no clue how to use the directional scanner properly (or when to use probes for that matter): "Inanna Zuni > it is unreasonable to expect every ship to install a scan launcher, so it needs to be the ship one. if the ship one then will be affected by skills which means new players at a disadvantage where everyone gets local info at same moment currently." Just wow . But perhaps with some simple tweaks...gee...the scanner currently can give automatic range values to celestial objects-perhaps allowing the same functionality for non-cloaked ships might encourage folks to use what is a simple 360-180-90-15 camera rotate process a bit easier? As opposed to the current stupidity of having to manually input ranges? But no...lets agree not to discuss things. Or dare to discuss any of the valid player suggestions/options for improvement. And ignore the other threads with well-written reasoning and plenty of support in favor of improving bio's and other such nonesense that HAVE NO EFFECT ON ACTUAL GAMEPLAY . Now don't get me wrong. Yes I am being harsh. And blunt. But I don't bullshit around and don't appreciate being spoon-fed bloated chatlogs as representative examples of you CSM folks doing your jobs properly. TBH it would have been better had the CSM been left as a simple bit of player oversight regarding potential CCP-employee involvement in the game rather than the current self-interest group it has morphed into. And me run for CSM? Cheers...but no thanks. There are far better players than me who actually care about the game and how it's played. And should I wish to roll up to Iceland and visit Jinx and the new ally smelter...I would do it on my own dime and not at the expense of other players money . Keep it simple-you folks should be about the gameplay in the context of EvE being a "cold, harsh, uncaring environment". Period. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.21 14:06:00 - [24] Quote: To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). Get your definitions correct pal Congratulations, you found wiki. What is your point? It doesn't change the nature of your above posts. Quote: I have read the chatlog...in it's entirety. Quote above is just a representative sample reinforcing lack of care or concern on the part of the CSM. True...you and JC may have voted yes to further discussions-yet neither of you back your yes reasons with any sembalance of ideas in order to make it an actual debate over pros-v-cons. No, because the idea being discussed around, was all written out in the submission template which was sebmitted before the meeting. Quote: With regard to local as intel-v-scanner...the main issue you fail to acknowledge is pilots in EvE are generally lazy and CAN'T BE ASKED TO LEARN TO USE THE SCANNER properly (and Lavista...I know from personal experience that YOU fail at that too). Huh? I'm sorry, are you the bone I used to fly with? As far as I'm aware, I know pretty well how to use the directional scanner. And what is your point with that anyways? Quote: But no...lets agree not to discuss things. Or dare to discuss any of the valid player suggestions/options for improvement. And ignore the other threads with well-written reasoning and plenty of support in favor of improving bio's and other such nonesense that HAVE NO EFFECT ON ACTUAL GAMEPLAY . Maybe we should dedicate a whole CSM meeting to your ideas? I mean, they seem to be more important than the rest of the community's ideas.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.21 14:43:00 - [25] Originally by: LaVista Vista Further waste of bandwidth I'll return when you (and fellow CSM members) actually have something useful to say regarding game play in a "cold, harsh, unforgiving environment". I'm not holding my breath. Put that in your hoped-for expanded bio. I am also fully expecting to see this thread locked and deleted for daring to ask questions and challenge the CSM to actually be useful regarding game play. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.21 15:16:00 - [26] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: LaVista Vista Further waste of bandwidth I'll return when you (and fellow CSM members) actually have something useful to say regarding game play in a "cold, harsh, unforgiving environment". I'm not holding my breath. Put that in your hoped-for expanded bio. I am also fully expecting to see this thread locked and deleted for daring to ask questions and challenge the CSM to actually be useful regarding game play. Why should it be locked? That would be stupid. Anyways, what you didn't see in those logs, was that for half an hour before the meeting, we were discussing several different topics, where several CSM members were advocating the harsh environment. Also, I think looking into the pillaging outpost suggestion, could be what you are looking for. But I'm all for the unforgiving environment. But Bone, how do you suggest we should do it? What should change? Unless you post on the assembly hall, we can't raise it. If you DO post there, I will read it and answer. So please, do post.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.21 16:25:00 - [27] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: LaVista Vista Further waste of bandwidth I'll return when you (and fellow CSM members) actually have something useful to say regarding game play in a "cold, harsh, unforgiving environment". I'm not holding my breath. Put that in your hoped-for expanded bio. I am also fully expecting to see this thread locked and deleted for daring to ask questions and challenge the CSM to actually be useful regarding game play. You know what RuleoftheBone, its a real shame you aren't prepared to run for CSM office yourself because I'd actually love to see you win a seat and get told face to face by the rest of the committee to stop acting like a whinging prat and try bring some actual adult discussion to the table. Grow up and treat people with a bit of respect and then you'll deserve some in return. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.21 19:16:00 - [28] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 21/07/2008 19:16:19 Originally by: Jade Constantine Stephen King-sized rant and rave I'll make sure I put this into my soon-to-be un-nerfed bio. Also....TL;DR "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.21 19:26:00 - [29] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 21/07/2008 19:16:19 Originally by: Jade Constantine Stephen King-sized rant and rave I'll make sure I put this into my soon-to-be un-nerfed bio. Also....TL;DR What a predictable answer. Just a shame you prove his point completely right.
Frettren	Posted - 2008.07.22 12:51:00 - [30] Name calling isn't going to progress discussion very far. In fact, such actions could be considered in breach of forum rules, and in direct conflict with the 'higher' expected behaviour of CSM members and those with positions within the CSM. Read the documents carefully, unless of course you are thinking about changing these sections also?

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