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Should CCP add more ISK sinks?

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Fitz VonHeise The New Order.	Posted - 2008.07.10 18:17:00 - [31] Originally by: Venkul Mul ... insured ship are a isk faucet (adding isk to the game), .... Not really. I had a carrier with platinum insurance. I think that with the cost of the insurance and cost of moduals lost I had to pay some 300-350m of the 1 billion in ship and moduals cost. And no not all moduals survived to be picked up. I do believe that if CCP killed a ship then their should be no insurance payout.
Kwint Sommer Caldari Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: Venkul Mul ... insured ship are a isk faucet (adding isk to the game), .... Not really. I had a carrier with platinum insurance. I think that with the cost of the insurance and cost of moduals lost I had to pay some 300-350m of the 1 billion in ship and moduals cost. And no not all moduals survived to be picked up. I do believe that if CCP killed a ship then their should be no insurance payout. IT ADDS ISK TO THE GAME, THEREFORE IT IS AN ISK FAUCET! Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:41:00 - [33] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Joe Public Edited by: Joe Public on 10/07/2008 07:43:54 Originally by: Treelox FW = Newest ISK SINK It's definately costing the participants a fortune in T2 ships and fittings, but is it taking much isk out of circulation? No. Insurance, pre-FW, added between 30-40 ish bill to the economy, every day. FW just boosted this number, I would imagine. But a lot of those same pilots are not running lvl4s or ratting..... --
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.07.10 20:58:00 - [34] People who are not willing to accept the risks in low- and 0,0-sec and still complains about low margins havenÆt taken the leap to overcome one of the ôend-gameö barriers to entry in Eve. The risks and the required connections/investments required for industrial conduct in 0,0 is a factor that reduces competition on certain markets. Hopefully CCP will add more of this sort of barriers instead of static skill-training which will be insignificant in X number of months. Originally by: Shadarle Funny, I was about to say the post lacked a clear understanding of how complex the EVE market is... but then it would make sense you would agree with it as you seem to also see no problem with the richest people getting even richer. This has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with an economy that is starting to fall apart slowly. Every segment of the market is slowly losing it's value. There is so much money out there that even Titan production will eventually be considered unprofitable. Funny, your description of the reason behind the collapse of the market is one of the distinctive long term outcomes of a perfectly working market. The whine about decreasing margins has nothing to do with an ôeconomy that is starting to fall apartö but has very much to do with personal preferences. In fact, what you promote would generally be considered as a market failure. Originally by: Shadarle The reason some of us want a flourishing economy is so that the game is fun to play. You speak of wanting a flourishing economy. Yet you promote market power and deadweight losses. Feel free to explain.
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.07.10 21:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Shadarle Funny, I was about to say the post lacked a clear understanding of how complex the EVE market is... but then it would make sense you would agree with it as you seem to also see no problem with the richest people getting even richer. The post you quoted was meant as sarcasm. No, I don't see any problem with rich people growing richer so long as the source of their wealth comes from the creation of value. Originally by: Shadarle This has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with an economy that is starting to fall apart slowly. Every segment of the market is slowly losing it's value. There is so much money out there that even Titan production will eventually be considered unprofitable. The reason some of us want a flourishing economy is so that the game is fun to play. I don't play EVE for the pew-pew, I play it for the market warfare. Thus I spend my time on the market discussion forums, not CAOD. I personally find market warfare quite enjoyable as do the majority of the people who post here. It, however, is becoming less and less enjoyable as the market is becoming over-saturated due to the ultra-wealthy being able to dabble in every segment of the market at once. I speak out of personal knowledge on the subject. I have my hands in so many different aspects of the economy it is silly... each one used to be the focus of a single IPO in the past because of the huge money requirements. For example, mothership BPO copying was something I did personally for a while... there was at least one if not two IPO's based on this. So many of us did this the market is now non-existant. Good to hear that you don't consider your success immoral. That is my main issue with the tone of many of the posts in this thread. I hear a lot of "I'm a bad person because I'm not distributing my isk among the masses". Sounds like what is actually meant is: "There's not enough new stuff for me to do to have fun and the current economy does not challenge me". That I can understand, and is a good argument. I think changing insurance to be a logarithmically-scaled rate where eventually it would cost you many more times what your ship was worth to insure it, (after losing several ships in a short timeframe) and adding content such as luxury barges and yachts would fix this, but I also think this will not happen (well maybe the barges and yachts, but not the insurance). Originally by: Shadarle Perhaps one day, when you're in the position I am in as well as many others here are in you will understand why we want things to change. It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies. I have quite a bit to learn, yes, and I may be mistaken on this issue. But the problem to me seems not to be the fact that a small number of people have lots and lots of isk, but that they have nothing they want to spend it on. If that's what you meant, then yes, I can agree with that being a problem.
Cor Aidan KNIGHT'S OF THE ROUND ROOM ReZZerecteD AlckemisTs	Posted - 2008.07.10 21:36:00 - [36] I know it's bad form to cross-post, but I posted a suggestion to solve this in the less-frequented Features and Ideas Discussion forum. This suggestion attempts to address all issues related to monetary supply by getting away from the source-sink model and using a more classical wealth-based model instead. Please feel free to comment/flame/etc. there.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.07.10 21:41:00 - [37] I think one under-used isk sink that could be dramatically expanded is the fees chraged for using NPC manufacturing slots. The slots should become exponentially more expensive if kept in constant use, just like offices, and the baseline should be a lot higher than it is at present. In fact, CCP has already mentioned that this feature may be re-activated. At the moment, the fees are so small as to be negligible, but I see no reason why they shouldn't account for a large fraction of the production costs of an item - even, for small items, approaching 100%. I'd also suggest adding a similar mechanism for the number of starbase charters needed per hour per tower in high sec, based on moon occupancy in each solar system, so people couldn't just dodge the charges altogether by building everything at a POS. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri 20:1 low-end compression
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.07.10 22:26:00 - [38] One item I noticed is that isk sinks are often considered to generate a total isk loss for the player. Faction ammo and implants/hardwires have an associated isk sink but are often sold for profit. Isk sinks are not necessarily a loss. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Kwint Sommer Caldari Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.07.10 22:41:00 - [39] Originally by: Professor Leech One item I noticed is that isk sinks are often considered to generate a total isk loss for the player. Faction ammo and implants/hardwires have an associated isk sink but are often sold for profit. Isk sinks are not necessarily a loss. That's actually a very bad example as you're not just using ammo+ISK but rather ammo+ISK+LP so it's only profitable if you assign a low enough value to LP. But the point is quite valid, there are definitely ISK sinks that are profitable and those are the kind I would like to see added. My complaint is not about the rich getting richer without end as there's no real risk (I do have issues with that but we've got bigger fish to fry) but rather that their is literally too much ISK in the game. We all know what currency grower faster than commodities means and I don't think any of us want it. Considering the general population earns ISK from things that produce a fairly fixed amount per hour (mission running, ratting and high sec mining) I doubt they want to see inflation either. That's why we need more ISK sinks and they should be high-end industrial oriented because that sector deserves some love and because it has the most ISK sitting around. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.07.10 23:22:00 - [40] LP is a strange commodity. Some people think it's worth 500-1000 isk and some people think it's worth 2000-15000 isk. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Rebunus Troth Caldari Trader's Academy	Posted - 2008.07.11 02:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Kwint Sommer That's why we need more ISK sinks and they should be high-end industrial oriented because that sector deserves some love and because it has the most ISK sitting around. How though do you put something in that will drain money out of the economy through industrials while engaging their stockpile of ISK? Monetary entry barriers on future manufacturing only widen the economic gap, and shrinking the margins on preexisting goods is something that is already happening. The only idea I have come up with is required usage of NPC trade goods for meta 1+ production along with that proposed removal of T1 drops, general reduction of all non-faction ones, and the rig like production idea. That helps drain money out of the economy, but that's it.
Fitz VonHeise The New Order.	Posted - 2008.07.11 03:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Shadarle It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies. Here is a suggestion that will take up a lot of isk and still get you into market economics: Hire a bunch of mercs to take on the cartel of Alliances that hold most of the Low Sec Dys/Prom moons and take them away. Then YOU will control a large percentage of the Dys/Prom market and be able to be a price setter. It will defiantly get you both real pew-pew and market as well.
ozz gonarun	Posted - 2008.07.11 03:21:00 - [43] Before I go any farther I will tell you that I fully support hte Ebank idea and hope to be able to work with them once I get more advanced in the game. If Ebank works like normal banks, it will take deposits, give out loans, pay interest on deposits, intake interest on loans, and also invest it's money to further increase the bank's revenue. Now what a bank does is make 1 isk into many isk. I will explain. When Person 1 deposits 100 million into the bank, he still has 100 million open to him within all servicable hours. What the bank then does is lend out that money to other people, thus making another's wallet increase while letting the other be the same. of course this can lead to disaster as what happens when everyone tries to pull their money out at the same time, as the bank will not have it, but so far Ebank has done a very good job, along with all the depositors at the bank. Even though this is not a faucet, it multiplies isk in a way. Forgive me on my stats, but I believe that current US dollars electronically tallied double the amount of paper money worldwide. Money is used by two people or more, thus making 1 isk be worth something to 2 or more people. Also, no matter what CCP does, people will try to work around it to get the best profit, it is the "challenge" that people are talking about. My two cents, feel free to flame. (again I fully support Ebank)
Kwint Sommer Caldari Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.07.11 04:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: Shadarle It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies. Here is a suggestion that will take up a lot of isk and still get you into market economics: Hire a bunch of mercs to take on the cartel of Alliances that hold most of the Low Sec Dys/Prom moons and take them away. Then YOU will control a large percentage of the Dys/Prom market and be able to be a price setter. It will defiantly get you both real pew-pew and market as well. Everyone likes to say that but it doesn't remove a single ISK from the game and in all honesty it isn't profitable to take the highest end moons. I say that as a big moon mining and reacting guy. I've paid mercs to take and defend moons and I have made a profit at times but when you're looking at the dysprosium and promethium moons it's a big gamble and it's liable to blow up in your face. It's a lot like saying, the biggest mafia family in town has this one really profitable block they get protection money from. Why don't we pay some thugs to beat up the mafia's usual collectors and start farming the place ourselves? For the simple reason that the mafia won't merely do a cost-benefit analysis to figure out how much they should spend retaking that block. They'll throw far more than it's worth at you because of the principle. They look weak if they loose it and that could cost them a lot more, so no matter how much you spend they'll bring more. You can spend ten time's what it'll make in a year and still not get it, not too mention make some serious enemies along the way. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Kwint Sommer Caldari Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.07.11 04:26:00 - [45] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 11/07/2008 04:27:58 Originally by: ozz gonarun Before I go any farther I will tell you that I fully support hte Ebank idea and hope to be able to work with them once I get more advanced in the game. If Ebank works like normal banks, it will take deposits, give out loans, pay interest on deposits, intake interest on loans, and also invest it's money to further increase the bank's revenue. Now what a bank does is make 1 isk into many isk. I will explain. When Person 1 deposits 100 million into the bank, he still has 100 million open to him within all servicable hours. What the bank then does is lend out that money to other people, thus making another's wallet increase while letting the other be the same. of course this can lead to disaster as what happens when everyone tries to pull their money out at the same time, as the bank will not have it, but so far Ebank has done a very good job, along with all the depositors at the bank. Even though this is not a faucet, it multiplies isk in a way. Forgive me on my stats, but I believe that current US dollars electronically tallied double the amount of paper money worldwide. Money is used by two people or more, thus making 1 isk be worth something to 2 or more people. Also, no matter what CCP does, people will try to work around it to get the best profit, it is the "challenge" that people are talking about. My two cents, feel free to flame. (again I fully support Ebank) Thank you for this pointless post, without it I wouldn't have had a very basic understanding of how a bank works. Your explanation of things that we all know was very helpful to this situation. In fact, I can't believe we were debating the need for ISK sinks without first having this explanation of the concept underlying a bank. By the way, as someone we've never heard of and who makes such valuable posts, your endorsement of EBANK is invaluable. In the even that we can't nominate wikipedia to be the next CSM, I'd like to nominate this man. His spouting off of pointless but still slightly related explanations of things is the next best thing to randomly clicking through it's articles. After reading the transcript from the last meeting, I think the dev's deserve a week of this. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.11 09:10:00 - [46] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: Venkul Mul ... insured ship are a isk faucet (adding isk to the game), .... Not really. I had a carrier with platinum insurance. I think that with the cost of the insurance and cost of moduals lost I had to pay some 300-350m of the 1 billion in ship and moduals cost. And no not all moduals survived to be picked up. I do believe that if CCP killed a ship then their should be no insurance payout. To repeat it again: No it is not a isk sink as it don't take isk out of the game universe The billion you have paid is in the hand of another player. The isk haven't left the game. You are poorer in assets, but the game hasn't seen isk leaving the universe, it ha seen isk entering the universe with the insurance payout. Isk sinks, as stated in the previous post that you haven't really read, are expenses that remove isk from the game universe, not those that remove isk and assets from you.
Fitz VonHeise The New Order.	Posted - 2008.07.11 14:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Kwint Sommer They'll throw far more than it's worth at you because of the principle. They look weak if they loose it and that could cost them a lot more, so no matter how much you spend they'll bring more. Yes but the point was to find ways remove isk from the game. I think this would make a large dent.
Killer Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.12 06:35:00 - [48] I believe a great isk sink would be the ability to lvl up through PURCHASING a lvl. Start out by only being able to buy a lvl 1 skill for 1 billion isk. to get that skill to lvl 2 pay 2 billion isk. So it gets incremental as the skill lvl goes up AND it becomes incremental the more times you do it. So to get one skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5 it costs 15 billion. Then to get another lvl 4 skill to lvl 5, it will cost 20 billion, etc. Also different prices based on different ranks. The amounts I gave are just suggestions, they could be any amount that CCP chooses.
Amrumm Rhetorical Devices	Posted - 2008.07.12 06:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Killer Vengeance I believe a great isk sink would be the ability to lvl up through PURCHASING a lvl. Start out by only being able to buy a lvl 1 skill for 1 billion isk. to get that skill to lvl 2 pay 2 billion isk. So it gets incremental as the skill lvl goes up AND it becomes incremental the more times you do it. So to get one skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5 it costs 15 billion. Then to get another lvl 4 skill to lvl 5, it will cost 20 billion, etc. Also different prices based on different ranks. The amounts I gave are just suggestions, they could be any amount that CCP chooses. Character bazar
Killer Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.12 07:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Amrumm Originally by: Killer Vengeance I believe a great isk sink would be the ability to lvl up through PURCHASING a lvl. Start out by only being able to buy a lvl 1 skill for 1 billion isk. to get that skill to lvl 2 pay 2 billion isk. So it gets incremental as the skill lvl goes up AND it becomes incremental the more times you do it. So to get one skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5 it costs 15 billion. Then to get another lvl 4 skill to lvl 5, it will cost 20 billion, etc. Also different prices based on different ranks. The amounts I gave are just suggestions, they could be any amount that CCP chooses. Character bazar i think you need to go back and look at what the definition of an eve sink is, that is when the money goes BACK to ccp and OUT of the economy.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.07.12 17:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Treelox But a lot of those same pilots are not running lvl4s or ratting..... I made this point, Treelox made this point and still people are skipping it. FW is an indirect isk sink, in that the people who ran missions day in and day out and flooded the markets with isk are now happily just shooting other player and not just grinding npc for isk. So FW is an isk sink in that because of FW there is a slowing of ISK coming into the game. Local and Covert cloaking Idea
SiJira	Posted - 2008.07.12 17:56:00 - [52] only the poor ask for isk sinks Trashed sig, Shark was here
Killer Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.12 23:33:00 - [53] Originally by: SiJira only the poor ask for isk sinks you aren't the brightest guy on the block, are you? an isk sink is a way to PREVENT inflation. An isk sink would actually make iskies WORTH MORE because there are less of them.
Danae Melios The Vorlon Empire	Posted - 2008.07.13 04:57:00 - [54] Where is the inflation that we need ISK sinks to remove money from the system? I know that in my brief stint in FW and my time in deep space and from talking with other, older players that prices if anything have come down rather than gone up, outside of certain static-supply items. Look at ship hulls. My last Domi cost me 50 mill ISK. My Hulk and Mack both cost under 100 mill ISK-- I remember hearing about them costing half a billion ISK or more. I'm able to buy researched BPOs at a reasonable rate when I have the spare ISK to spend. I don't do officer or deadspace fittings, so maybe there is some issue there. But at least for my purposes I see little if any inflation. So why the constant talk of ISK sinks? Where is the inflation that worries people so much?
Alyx Farstrider	Posted - 2008.07.14 18:30:00 - [55] Originally by: Petyr Baelich Why is this a problem? If you perceive it to be a problem and think you have too much isk, buy a bunch of BPOs and put them in the cargohold of a shuttle which you blow up with an alt, and then blow up the wreck as well. Problem solved. Is the problem too much wealth in the hands of a few? Or is the problem too much ISK? Those are not the same problem. If money enters an otherwise closed economy, the "value" of money goes down. THAT is the reason that CCP might want/need to impliment an ISK sink. An astute person above me correctly posted that getting blown up in FW adds ISK to the economy. Buying half the BPOs that exist in EVE and destroying them would do nothing except double the ISK value of all the remaining BPOs. That being said:- http://eve-central.com/reports/Minerals-180.png http://eve-central.com/reports/Rare%20Minerals-180.png and especially: http://eve-central.com/reports/Tier%201%20Battleship-180.png I don't think CCP need to act to remove ISK from the economy to counteract inflation. I can't comment on whether they need to act to counteract the gap between rich and poor.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.14 18:43:00 - [56] We are experiencing Stagflation, not inflation or deflation.
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.07.15 01:35:00 - [57] Originally by: Alyx Farstrider Originally by: Petyr Baelich Why is this a problem? If you perceive it to be a problem and think you have too much isk, buy a bunch of BPOs and put them in the cargohold of a shuttle which you blow up with an alt, and then blow up the wreck as well. Problem solved. An astute person above me correctly posted that getting blown up in FW adds ISK to the economy. Buying half the BPOs that exist in EVE and destroying them would do nothing except double the ISK value of all the remaining BPOs. T1 BPOs are NPC-seeded and have a fixed sale value unless they are heavily researched. My argument for using them as an isk-sink was also a facetious one. Originally by: Alyx Farstrider I can't comment on whether they need to act to counteract the gap between rich and poor. It is impossible to "counteract" the gap between rich and poor without simply killing everyone, all you can do is change the names. From the tone of your response you seem to know this.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.07.15 02:25:00 - [58] Originally by: SiJira only the poor ask for isk sinks Im pretty far from poor last I checked, and I just want some more high level industrial content added to the game in the form of big ticket empire sinks. Even if its something as stupid as letting me name a moon after myself.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.07.15 05:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Petyr Baelich Originally by: Alyx Farstrider I can't comment on whether they need to act to counteract the gap between rich and poor. It is impossible to "counteract" the gap between rich and poor without simply killing everyone, all you can do is change the names. From the tone of your response you seem to know this. The problem is not that there is a gap between rich and poor. In any proper economy there will be. Those who are smarter, faster, stronger, etc will always outperform the competition. In fact if this does not occur then the economy is not working correctly. The issue is not that there is a disparity but that the rich really have nothing to spend money on. There are not enough "luxury" items in EVE. Items that the rich are willing to spend insane amounts of money on that the rest of the population really does not need but would like to have and thus strive to attain them one day.
Pax Empyrean	Posted - 2008.07.15 14:28:00 - [60] Good gravy, people. First of all, if you spend 100 million on a ship and get a 50 million insurance payout on it over the cost of insruance, there's a net increase of 50 million isk. Sure your wallet got smaller by 50 million, but the person you bought the ship from got 100 million. You lost 50 mil, he gained 100 mil, net gain to the economy is 50 mil. Losing insured ships adds ISK to the economy regardless of what kind of ships or modules are lost. Quote: We are experiencing Stagflation, not inflation or deflation. Not the brightest, are you Shadarl? Stagflation is a condition of rising inflation combined with rising unemployment. You can't have stagflation without inflation. Also, saying that there is unemployment in EVE is absurd. Quote: The issue is not that there is a disparity but that the rich really have nothing to spend money on. Why don't they go buy fleets of capital ships to rival the BoB-blob? The ultra-rich have plenty of stuff to spend their money on. Or they could go for a full-Estamel fit Raven or something equally ridiculous. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist. If you read the quarterly economic blogs you'd know that EVE is actually experiencing mild deflation, not inflation. There's no need for arbitrary ISK sinks. Even with ISK flowing into the game from rats and insurance, ship production, loot, and mining are still increasing at a faster pace. Thus, deflation.

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