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Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.10 03:02:00 -
[1]
Way back when the first econ report was released I thought it claimed there was ~200bil ISK coming into the EVE economy every month. This seems a bit low now, but either way, it seems everyone is too rich for their own good, and thus has no incentive to invest on the projects of others. Also manufacturing becomes a solo alt-army endeavor, not a corp/group kind of thing.
Adding ISK sinks would make money a bit scarcer, so maybe these bond offers and so forth wouldn't get snapped up so quickly. This could be something as simple as doubling the NPC price of all existing blueprints, adding new items with extremely expensive blueprints, or something of that nature.
People have asked that manufacturing become more complex/get some love. I agree with this, but I don't see how this would (necessarily) lead to more group manufacturing endeavors. Reducing the amount of ISK floating around might...as it would be more difficult to buy BPOs and so forth.
Alternatively, they could remove ISK faucets, namely insurance. Bounties could also be decreased and offset by increased loot drops and LP rewards.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.07.10 03:06:00 -
[2]
People are always talking about ISK sinks. Boredom, want the rich gap to get bigger, ..... whatever.
If a player wants to make asink they can. Find someone your bored with or don't like and hire mercs to blow up their high sec POS's.
Start an IPO to destroy many POS's just for the giggles.
Think away
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Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.10 03:19:00 -
[3]
Yeah unfortunately I don't even have 100bil yet so I'd rather not toss away 2-5bil just for kicks, although it would be fun if/when I get richer.
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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.10 03:25:00 -
[4]
The need for high end ISK sinks for industrialists has been discussed at length, CCP even commented a few times. While they showed a very serious interest in the topic, the only thing they seemed sure was going to help was ambulation which I have my doubts about.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.10 03:32:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Khrillian
Way back when the first econ report was released I thought it claimed there was ~200bil ISK coming into the EVE economy every month. This seems a bit low now, but either way, it seems everyone is too rich for their own good, and thus has no incentive to invest on the projects of others. Also manufacturing becomes a solo alt-army endeavor, not a corp/group kind of thing.
Well this is just a whole mess of stupid, isn't it?
If people have too much isk to use themselves, that is an incentive to invest in others.
Originally by: Khrillian
Adding ISK sinks would make money a bit scarcer, so maybe these bond offers and so forth wouldn't get snapped up so quickly. This could be something as simple as doubling the NPC price of all existing blueprints, adding new items with extremely expensive blueprints, or something of that nature.
Oh I see what you did just there.... yeah, you contradicted yourself. I thought there wasn't enough of an incentive to invest in others?
Adding isk sinks does not make it any less easy to make money, it just gives you something to throw it away into.
Doubling the price of blueprints would make manufacturing even less attractive than it is now for many months to come until the invisible hand finds a new equilibrium point. Adding new items is always nice, again... for a few months.
Originally by: Khrillian
People have asked that manufacturing become more complex/get some love. I agree with this, but I don't see how this would (necessarily) lead to more group manufacturing endeavors. Reducing the amount of ISK floating around might...as it would be more difficult to buy BPOs and so forth.
Alternatively, they could remove ISK faucets, namely insurance. Bounties could also be decreased and offset by increased loot drops and LP rewards.
It leads to more group manufacturing endeavors because one person can't do it all (profitably) alone. And if one person tries to do this with alts, he will be operating less efficiently than his competition and make less money. Don't see any 1-man moon-mining, reaction-producing, component-making, t2 BPC-inventing, t2 ship-producing operations from start to finish, now do you? Reducing the amount of isk in the system does nothing but reduce inflation (which is pretty low already) or cause the inverse problem (deflation).
Insurance should be changed to create a more realistic economic simulation, yes. However, it will not be changed because a more stable economy and higher "death penalty" would cause people to play this game much more cautiously, (especially from the PvP side); its designers and the majority of its players do not want that.
If you reduce bounties and increase the drop rate of loot you've done nothing but further depress the t1 market. Meta 1 items, (and anything that can be produced from a BPO) need to be removed from the loot tables altogether. NPC rats should drop NPC named gear and nothing else. This would remove a great portion of "filler" items from circulation, make mining much more viable a profession, establish a very decent starting point for manufacturers of newbie meta 1 equipment, and (after the initial fluctuations) leave missioning rewards the same as they were before.
Honestly it seems as if you've taken the worst ideas from a bunch of other threads this month along with a couple good ones, and regurgitated them into a bag which you then set on fire here in Market Discussions. Well done sir, well done.
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Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.10 03:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
The need for high end ISK sinks for industrialists has been discussed at length, CCP even commented a few times. While they showed a very serious interest in the topic, the only thing they seemed sure was going to help was ambulation which I have my doubts about.
I could see needing to spend quite a bit outfitting the offices with furniture.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Devian 666
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.10 03:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ava Santiago
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
The need for high end ISK sinks for industrialists has been discussed at length, CCP even commented a few times. While they showed a very serious interest in the topic, the only thing they seemed sure was going to help was ambulation which I have my doubts about.
I could see needing to spend quite a bit outfitting the offices with furniture.
Yeah eve would turn into Habbo Hotel. Except people wouldn't get arrested for stealing your furniture pixels.
Isk sinks should be related to typical game play rather than content you can simply ignore.
Originally by: Darkrydar
Oh and killboard loss arguments are so 2005.
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Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.10 04:03:00 -
[8]
OP edited for clarity/errors.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
If people have too much isk to use themselves, that is an incentive to invest in others.
...
I thought there wasn't enough of an incentive to invest in others?
If everyone is rich, anyone with an IPO idea will just do it themselves and never look for outside capital. Anyone who sees a good IPO idea can also just do it themselves instead of invest. Its only a matter of time before the only remaining IPOs are just people doing it for fun. This seems like a crappy IPO market.
On the other hand, if there are some profitable things that I cannot afford to do myself, I have reason to invest.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
It leads to more group manufacturing endeavors because one person can't do it all (profitably) alone. And if one person tries to do this with alts, he will be operating less efficiently than his competition and make less money. Don't see any 1-man moon-mining, reaction-producing, component-making, t2 BPC-inventing, t2 ship-producing operations from start to finish, now do you? Reducing the amount of isk in the system does nothing but reduce inflation (which is pretty low already) or cause the inverse problem (deflation).
Solo moon reacting, inventing, and ship production is all possible and quite easy. Solo moon mining only requires you to pay or be on friendly terms with a merc corp or alliance.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Insurance should be changed to create a more realistic economic simulation, yes. However, it will not be changed because a more stable economy and higher "death penalty" would cause people to play this game much more cautiously, (especially from the PvP side); its designers and the majority of its players do not want that.
Plenty of people fly in T2 ships with expensive mods, so insurance is worthless for them, so I don't see how the removal of insurance would directly impact their behavior.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Adding isk sinks does not make it any less easy to make money, it just gives you something to throw it away into.
You can still make the same amount off of bounties and so forth, but trading with players etc can't be as profitable if there's less money going around. If ISK sinks actually outweighted faucets it would eventually become almost impossible to make money.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.07.10 04:11:00 -
[9]
Problem is that the high end industrial content that CCP brings out is restricted to 0.0 or lowsec (motherships, titan production etc).
I believe there would be a much larger takeup on this kind of production if it were somehow available in empire as that is where most of the industrialists actually gather.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.10 04:24:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Khrillian
If everyone is rich, anyone with an IPO idea will just do it themselves and never look for outside capital. Anyone who sees a good IPO idea can also just do it themselves instead of invest. Its only a matter of time before the only remaining IPOs are just people doing it for fun. This seems like a crappy IPO market.
Everyone who posts regularly in here is rich, and they still invest in anyone with a sound business plan, or even an unsound one backed by a good reputation. Infact, quite possibly the richest of us all (Ebank) is frequently the heaviest investor. Why? Because it's extremely difficult to scale business operations by yourself.
Originally by: Khrillian
On the other hand, if there are some profitable things that I cannot afford to do myself, I have reason to invest.
Which has nothing to do with the subject of your original post. An isk sink is by definition something you do not make money from, it's not an opportunity or an asset, it's a liability.
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
It leads to more group manufacturing endeavors because one person can't do it all (profitably) alone. And if one person tries to do this with alts, he will be operating less efficiently than his competition and make less money. Don't see any 1-man moon-mining, reaction-producing, component-making, t2 BPC-inventing, t2 ship-producing operations from start to finish, now do you? Reducing the amount of isk in the system does nothing but reduce inflation (which is pretty low already) or cause the inverse problem (deflation).
Solo moon reacting, inventing, and ship production is all possible and quite easy. Solo moon mining only requires you to pay or be on friendly terms with a merc corp or alliance.
Added emphasis to my original response. Yes I know it's quite easy to do any one or even several of those things. In fact that was exactly my point; one can do a few steps, but not the entire process. All manufacturing except for very basic items should be like this.
To expand on this: A newbie manufacturer should not be able to make Ravens, but they should be able to make the propulsion drive that goes in a raven, or the central computer, etc.
Originally by: Khrillian
Plenty of people fly in T2 ships with expensive mods, so insurance is worthless for them, so I don't see how the removal of insurance would directly impact their behavior.
You describe a small minority of players, statistically speaking. It would not affect their behavior, nor I did not say remove, I said change. More to the point, I explained why it will not happen and the reasoning behind that fact.
Originally by: Khrillian
You can still make the same amount off of bounties and so forth, but trading with players etc can't be as profitable if there's less money going around. If ISK sinks actually outweighted faucets it would eventually become almost impossible to make money.
Only for those stupid enough to throw their money into the sinks. What you're describing would be suicide. Most people will not willingly commit suicide, therefore they will stop using the sinks and go back to the faucets until they have enough to throw down into the sinks again. Of course, some will never leave the faucets in the first place.
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Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.10 04:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Everyone who posts regularly in here is rich, and they still invest in anyone with a sound business plan, or even an unsound one backed by a good reputation. Infact, quite possibly the richest of us all (Ebank) is frequently the heaviest investor. Why? Because it's extremely difficult to scale business operations by yourself.
It's hard to scale up a Thorax production setup, but if you want to double your Raven production just buy a second BPO... But yeah I guess its more of a supply problem than a demand one.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Originally by: Khrillian
On the other hand, if there are some profitable things that I cannot afford to do myself, I have reason to invest.
Which has nothing to do with the subject of your original post. An isk sink is by definition something you do not make money from, it's not an opportunity or an asset, it's a liability.
BPOs are assets, even though they are ISK sinks. You make money from BPOs. One complaint in the OP was that most people have enough money to do many things they can think of that are profitable alone.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Added emphasis to my original response. Yes I know it's quite easy to do any one or even several of those things. In fact that was exactly my point; one can do a few steps, but not the entire process. All manufacturing except for very basic items should be like this.
To expand on this: A newbie manufacturer should not be able to make Ravens, but they should be able to make the propulsion drive that goes in a raven, or the central computer, etc.
Right, makes sense.
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Only for those stupid enough to throw their money into the sinks. What you're describing would be suicide. Most people will not willingly commit suicide, therefore they will stop using the sinks and go back to the faucets until they have enough to throw down into the sinks again. Of course, some will never leave the faucets in the first place.
When I spend ISK, I don't care if its a sink or not, I just care if It's something fun or if it will produce returns in the future. So manufacturers would keep dumping ISK into BPOs etc, they just wouldn't enjoy as much profit as they do now.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.07.10 06:06:00 -
[12]
FW = Newest ISK SINK
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Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.10 06:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Treelox
FW = Newest ISK SINK
FW = Caldari noobs losing lots of insured ships = ISK faucet.
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.07.10 06:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Problem is that the high end industrial content that CCP brings out is restricted to 0.0 or lowsec (motherships, titan production etc).
I believe there would be a much larger takeup on this kind of production if it were somehow available in empire as that is where most of the industrialists actually gather.
The capital builders I know are all in empire with their BPO and BPC, which then travel down to 0.0 when the components are built and put together in 0.0 or if its a normal capital just built in low sec.
Local and Covert cloaking Idea |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.07.10 06:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Khrillian
FW = Caldari noobs losing lots of insured ships = ISK faucet.
But you didn't count the mods which half if not more that blew up. Also remember as more players learn to pvp they WILL move up to bigger ships and better mods(T2). So I do believe that FW will serve as a training ground for new low/0.0 fighters and help take out resources from the game. Would say isk but its not isk that is taken out, its the time that mission runners are spending NOT running missions that counts here. As it is lowering the isk that is coming in to the game.
But I could be completely wrong here and probability am.
Local and Covert cloaking Idea |
Joe Public
A Few Good Men.
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Posted - 2008.07.10 06:58:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Joe Public on 10/07/2008 06:59:56
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Treelox
FW = Newest ISK SINK
FW = Caldari noobs losing lots of insured ships = ISK faucet.
I've destroyed billions of isk in T2 ships and fittings since the start of factional warfare. I've also lost a few T2 ships myself. It looks like an ISK sink to me.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.07.10 07:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Joe Public
Edited by: Joe Public on 10/07/2008 07:43:54
Originally by: Treelox
FW = Newest ISK SINK
It's definately costing the participants a fortune in T2 ships and fittings, but is it taking much isk out of circulation?
No.
Insurance, pre-FW, added between 30-40 ish bill to the economy, every day.
FW just boosted this number, I would imagine.
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2008.07.10 08:00:00 -
[18]
I don't see how isk sinks would encourage group play. The primary reason for solo play is to avoid the hassle of working with strangers. Isk sinks do not address that problem.
If your interest is in increasing the number of investment opportunities, and encouraging people to seek money from others (and invest money in others), all that is needed is to improve the system for doing so. I know I would love to have more cash to run my trade business and could easily make enough off the investment to afford a 10% monthly fee, but I'm much to lazy to deal with all the details involved in acquiring such loan/bond. If the contract system supported the issuing of bonds (or just allowed a reverse loan contract where you request a loan instead of offering one) there would be a much more active bond market.
Note: isk sinks do not inherently inhibit wealth gain. An increase in fees (like sales tax, broker fees, and office fees) could reduce the rate of wealth gain, but BPO sales do not. It just results in a larger portion of a person's wealth being in assets instead of isk. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.07.10 12:19:00 -
[19]
The problem is definitely that there is too much wealth in the hands of a few people, not necessarily that there is too much ISK in the game. Even if I spent 100bil on a few BPO's I wouldn't feel any less wealthy than I am, because I would know I could sell those BPO's for close to 100 bil if not for a profit sometime down the road.
Thus I would still behave as though I had all of that 100 bil and I could produce with all those BPO's at the same time or run copies, etc.
Until there is a reason for ultra-rich players to just give-away their wealth it will not really fix the growing disparity in EVE. IMO, higher taxes and fees would be a good start as it would slow down the wealth gain of everyone. But I can't really think of a "fix", other than more High-Sec POS content that is destroyable... thus providing more of a true ISK sink.
When a POS is destroyed, imo, some of it's labs / structures should blow up. Kind of like the way half of all loot is destroyed when you blow someone up. This completely removes objects from the game and makes their value disappear. More destruction of high-end items is a good way to remove value from the game. But you don't want to remove value from mission runners and PvP'ers, you want to remove it from industrialists who hoard lots of wealth. So if you can figure out a way to do that then you might have found a solution.
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jna
Caldari
Black Ash Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shadarle
But you don't want to remove value from mission runners and PvP'ers, you want to remove it from industrialists who hoard lots of wealth. So if you can figure out a way to do that then you might have found a solution.
Astonishingly, I find myself agreeing with Shadarle here.
Tax (corporation and individual), payable to the Cal State, Gal Fed etc, and based on ingame asset value and wallet balances. As ingame assets would doubtless be valued at their insurance value, it would also encourage a whole new market in tax avoidance schemes (everything from T2 ships to g-vexors) 
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Caeleste naves interretis res gravissimas sunt |
Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shadarle
The problem is definitely that there is too much wealth in the hands of a few people
Why is this a problem? If you perceive it to be a problem and think you have too much isk, buy a bunch of BPOs and put them in the cargohold of a shuttle which you blow up with an alt, and then blow up the wreck as well. Problem solved.
Originally by: Shadarle
Until there is a reason for ultra-rich players to just give-away their wealth it will not really fix the growing disparity in EVE.
There will never be a (rational) reason for anyone to do something like this. Ever. People who do not believe that wealth, (the creation of value) is good will never achieve it in the first place.
Originally by: Shadarle
But you don't want to remove value from mission runners and PvP'ers, you want to remove it from industrialists who hoard lots of wealth. So if you can figure out a way to do that then you might have found a solution.
Are you simply stating that this is the OPs' position, or are you agreeing with it as well? How can one method of creating value be moral and another is not? I really don't understand the posts in this thread from otherwise moral people who somehow think their great wealth is ill-gotten and constitutes some sort of problem.
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:25:00 -
[22]
I already pay enough taxes and broker fees. If anything I want them lowered to encourage more competition.
The biggest ISK sink is the wallet. Money that simply sits in your wallet does not play a significant role in the economy. In the other hand Banks and IPOs take that dormant ISK and make it available to the economy.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shadarle
The problem is definitely that there is too much wealth in the hands of a few people, not necessarily that there is too much ISK in the game. Even if I spent 100bil on a few BPO's I wouldn't feel any less wealthy than I am, because I would know I could sell those BPO's for close to 100 bil if not for a profit sometime down the road.
The symptom of the true problem is that there is to much wealth in the hands of the few. The issue is that the velocity of isk in the game does not match the faucets of isk at the top tiers of the population. So you have a few collecting an ever growing pile of wealth because there is nothing large enough for them to spend it on, allowing a transfer of wealth across the rest of the universe. |
Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:48:00 -
[24]
and their was me thinking that the people with the isk were just hoarding it so that they could use it at some other point if they needed it instead of spending it.
Their is no problem if you have 0 isk and 0 items and nothing to fly all you have to do is dock get a free ship mine a little kill a few rats and then eventually you'll have isk again and ships and things.
The only way their could be too much isk in the game is if everyone didn't need to run missions or mine or trade and could just PvP 23/7 without any worries of running out. Most people still make isk because they need to some people make it for fun. Isk is very easy to get hold of and very easy to lose if you want to it's well balanced the only people with lots of isk are the people who want lots of isk and that isn't a problem if the people with lots of isk decided to be wreckless and do somethin silly they could higher many merc corps equip them with capital ships and go blow up some 0.0 alliances POS network and that's alot of isk moved around and destroyed. problem solved :)
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gawain Hill
and their was me thinking that the people with the isk were just hoarding it so that they could use it at some other point if they needed it instead of spending it.
Their is no problem if you have 0 isk and 0 items and nothing to fly all you have to do is dock get a free ship mine a little kill a few rats and then eventually you'll have isk again and ships and things.
The only way their could be too much isk in the game is if everyone didn't need to run missions or mine or trade and could just PvP 23/7 without any worries of running out. Most people still make isk because they need to some people make it for fun. Isk is very easy to get hold of and very easy to lose if you want to it's well balanced the only people with lots of isk are the people who want lots of isk and that isn't a problem if the people with lots of isk decided to be wreckless and do somethin silly they could higher many merc corps equip them with capital ships and go blow up some 0.0 alliances POS network and that's alot of isk moved around and destroyed. problem solved :)
You have just renewed my faith in the inherent rationality of the MD forum.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Gawain Hill
and their was me thinking that the people with the isk were just hoarding it so that they could use it at some other point if they needed it instead of spending it.
Their is no problem if you have 0 isk and 0 items and nothing to fly all you have to do is dock get a free ship mine a little kill a few rats and then eventually you'll have isk again and ships and things.
The only way their could be too much isk in the game is if everyone didn't need to run missions or mine or trade and could just PvP 23/7 without any worries of running out. Most people still make isk because they need to some people make it for fun. Isk is very easy to get hold of and very easy to lose if you want to it's well balanced the only people with lots of isk are the people who want lots of isk and that isn't a problem if the people with lots of isk decided to be wreckless and do somethin silly they could higher many merc corps equip them with capital ships and go blow up some 0.0 alliances POS network and that's alot of isk moved around and destroyed. problem solved :)
Just a scant few of us wanting some top tier industrial aspect to game really. Something to allow transfer of the wealth downward to the rest of the masses. Which in turn should create more pew pew for everyone else.
...don't the CnP denizens ***** about how little populated low sec and null are? You'd think having more isk in the hands of everyone instead of the few would help alleviate that. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:33:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Originally by: Gawain Hill
and their was me thinking that the people with the isk were just hoarding it so that they could use it at some other point if they needed it instead of spending it.
Their is no problem if you have 0 isk and 0 items and nothing to fly all you have to do is dock get a free ship mine a little kill a few rats and then eventually you'll have isk again and ships and things.
The only way their could be too much isk in the game is if everyone didn't need to run missions or mine or trade and could just PvP 23/7 without any worries of running out. Most people still make isk because they need to some people make it for fun. Isk is very easy to get hold of and very easy to lose if you want to it's well balanced the only people with lots of isk are the people who want lots of isk and that isn't a problem if the people with lots of isk decided to be wreckless and do somethin silly they could higher many merc corps equip them with capital ships and go blow up some 0.0 alliances POS network and that's alot of isk moved around and destroyed. problem solved :)
You have just renewed my faith in the inherent rationality of the MD forum.
Funny, I was about to say the post lacked a clear understanding of how complex the EVE market is... but then it would make sense you would agree with it as you seem to also see no problem with the richest people getting even richer.
This has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with an economy that is starting to fall apart slowly. Every segment of the market is slowly losing it's value. There is so much money out there that even Titan production will eventually be considered unprofitable.
The reason some of us want a flourishing economy is so that the game is fun to play. I don't play EVE for the pew-pew, I play it for the market warfare. Thus I spend my time on the market discussion forums, not CAOD. I personally find market warfare quite enjoyable as do the majority of the people who post here. It, however, is becoming less and less enjoyable as the market is becoming over-saturated due to the ultra-wealthy being able to dabble in every segment of the market at once. I speak out of personal knowledge on the subject. I have my hands in so many different aspects of the economy it is silly... each one used to be the focus of a single IPO in the past because of the huge money requirements. For example, mothership BPO copying was something I did personally for a while... there was at least one if not two IPO's based on this. So many of us did this the market is now non-existant.
The problem is, every market is falling into this trap. There is almost nothing left for us industrialists to do that isn't already saturated. This was painfully obvious with the introduction of the T2 Battleships. It was a fairly costly undertaking to build them for a lot of people and yet you still had a massive over-supply immediately. There were hundreds if not thousands of people with the resources to build them the first day they launched. This was all money that was sitting around waiting to be used. That's how much demand there is for something "new" to do.
Perhaps one day, when you're in the position I am in as well as many others here are in you will understand why we want things to change. It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:47:00 -
[28]
The down side to being poor is you don't have lots of isk. The down side to being rich is you have alot of isk and you know how to make isk which is what people are complaining about. It used to be profitable to build motherships so people did it and got richer (their wasnt any movement of money to the poorer people in eve otherwise people wouldn't have started doing it since it would have been done at a loss. The only way for the rich to stop getting richer is for them to stop making money or find a way to move money to other poorer players that is fun for them aswell but then again I doubt people would undertake something long term if it was going to mean they'd be running at a net loss.
Things that might work for a little while are;
Alowing players to set up insurance compaines that are backed by game mechanics so that they can't set up one big scam.
Alowing player corperations to have npc agents that give out missions which are funded by the player corps, ofcause their wouldn't be any lp gain from this so the isk gain would have to be higher than npc missions to make it worth players doing.
Ofcause I doubt that many people would be able to fund either of those two options long term so after a while they'd both stop working but it'd redistribute the wealth of the people that have the isk to the people that don't have the isk and it's probably open to abuse somewhere.
But short of donating isk to the "help the poor" you're not goin to get any less isk if you spend your time making isk unless you do it badly.
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order.
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Shadarle
It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies.
Here is a suggestion that will take up a lot of isk and still get you into market economics:
Hire a bunch of mercs to take on the cartel of Alliances that hold most of the Low Sec Dys/Prom moons and take them away. Then YOU will control a large percentage of the Dys/Prom market and be able to be a price setter.
It will defiantly get you both real pew-pew and market as well.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bloody Rabbit
Originally by: Khrillian
FW = Caldari noobs losing lots of insured ships = ISK faucet.
But you didn't count the mods which half if not more that blew up. Also remember as more players learn to pvp they WILL move up to bigger ships and better mods(T2). So I do believe that FW will serve as a training ground for new low/0.0 fighters and help take out resources from the game. Would say isk but its not isk that is taken out, its the time that mission runners are spending NOT running missions that counts here. As it is lowering the isk that is coming in to the game.
But I could be completely wrong here and probability am.
Originally by: Joe Public
Edited by: Joe Public on 10/07/2008 07:43:54
Originally by: Treelox
FW = Newest ISK SINK
It's definately costing the participants a fortune in T2 ships and fittings, but is it taking much isk out of circulation?
To reply to both in one post:
No it is not a isk sink as it don't take isk out of the game universe
Note that iks sink refer to isk leaving the game, so decreasing the total isk in game.
Modules and ship destroyed are a isk loss for the player, but the isk he paid them are still in the game, in the hand of other players.
More than that, insured ship are a isk faucet (adding isk to the game), as the isk paid from for them is still in the game (in the hand of another player) and the character losing the ship get the isk from insurance.
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order.
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:17:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
... insured ship are a isk faucet (adding isk to the game), ....
Not really.
I had a carrier with platinum insurance. I think that with the cost of the insurance and cost of moduals lost I had to pay some 300-350m of the 1 billion in ship and moduals cost. And no not all moduals survived to be picked up.
I do believe that if CCP killed a ship then their should be no insurance payout.
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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.10 19:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Originally by: Venkul Mul
... insured ship are a isk faucet (adding isk to the game), ....
Not really.
I had a carrier with platinum insurance. I think that with the cost of the insurance and cost of moduals lost I had to pay some 300-350m of the 1 billion in ship and moduals cost. And no not all moduals survived to be picked up.
I do believe that if CCP killed a ship then their should be no insurance payout.
IT ADDS ISK TO THE GAME, THEREFORE IT IS AN ISK FAUCET!
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.07.10 19:41:00 -
[33]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Joe Public
Edited by: Joe Public on 10/07/2008 07:43:54
Originally by: Treelox
FW = Newest ISK SINK
It's definately costing the participants a fortune in T2 ships and fittings, but is it taking much isk out of circulation?
No.
Insurance, pre-FW, added between 30-40 ish bill to the economy, every day.
FW just boosted this number, I would imagine.
But a lot of those same pilots are not running lvl4s or ratting.....
--
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.07.10 20:58:00 -
[34]
People who are not willing to accept the risks in low- and 0,0-sec and still complains about low margins havenÆt taken the leap to overcome one of the ôend-gameö barriers to entry in Eve. The risks and the required connections/investments required for industrial conduct in 0,0 is a factor that reduces competition on certain markets. Hopefully CCP will add more of this sort of barriers instead of static skill-training which will be insignificant in X number of months.
Originally by: Shadarle
Funny, I was about to say the post lacked a clear understanding of how complex the EVE market is... but then it would make sense you would agree with it as you seem to also see no problem with the richest people getting even richer.
This has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with an economy that is starting to fall apart slowly. Every segment of the market is slowly losing it's value. There is so much money out there that even Titan production will eventually be considered unprofitable.
Funny, your description of the reason behind the collapse of the market is one of the distinctive long term outcomes of a perfectly working market. The whine about decreasing margins has nothing to do with an ôeconomy that is starting to fall apartö but has very much to do with personal preferences.
In fact, what you promote would generally be considered as a market failure.
Originally by: Shadarle
The reason some of us want a flourishing economy is so that the game is fun to play.
You speak of wanting a flourishing economy. Yet you promote market power and deadweight losses. Feel free to explain.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.10 21:17:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Shadarle
Funny, I was about to say the post lacked a clear understanding of how complex the EVE market is... but then it would make sense you would agree with it as you seem to also see no problem with the richest people getting even richer.
The post you quoted was meant as sarcasm. No, I don't see any problem with rich people growing richer so long as the source of their wealth comes from the creation of value.
Originally by: Shadarle
This has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with an economy that is starting to fall apart slowly. Every segment of the market is slowly losing it's value. There is so much money out there that even Titan production will eventually be considered unprofitable.
The reason some of us want a flourishing economy is so that the game is fun to play. I don't play EVE for the pew-pew, I play it for the market warfare. Thus I spend my time on the market discussion forums, not CAOD. I personally find market warfare quite enjoyable as do the majority of the people who post here. It, however, is becoming less and less enjoyable as the market is becoming over-saturated due to the ultra-wealthy being able to dabble in every segment of the market at once. I speak out of personal knowledge on the subject. I have my hands in so many different aspects of the economy it is silly... each one used to be the focus of a single IPO in the past because of the huge money requirements. For example, mothership BPO copying was something I did personally for a while... there was at least one if not two IPO's based on this. So many of us did this the market is now non-existant.
Good to hear that you don't consider your success immoral. That is my main issue with the tone of many of the posts in this thread. I hear a lot of "I'm a bad person because I'm not distributing my isk among the masses". Sounds like what is actually meant is: "There's not enough new stuff for me to do to have fun and the current economy does not challenge me". That I can understand, and is a good argument. I think changing insurance to be a logarithmically-scaled rate where eventually it would cost you many more times what your ship was worth to insure it, (after losing several ships in a short timeframe) and adding content such as luxury barges and yachts would fix this, but I also think this will not happen (well maybe the barges and yachts, but not the insurance).
Originally by: Shadarle
Perhaps one day, when you're in the position I am in as well as many others here are in you will understand why we want things to change. It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies.
I have quite a bit to learn, yes, and I may be mistaken on this issue. But the problem to me seems not to be the fact that a small number of people have lots and lots of isk, but that they have nothing they want to spend it on. If that's what you meant, then yes, I can agree with that being a problem.
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Cor Aidan
KNIGHT'S OF THE ROUND ROOM
ReZZerecteD AlckemisTs
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Posted - 2008.07.10 21:36:00 -
[36]
I know it's bad form to cross-post, but I posted a suggestion to solve this in the less-frequented Features and Ideas Discussion forum. This suggestion attempts to address all issues related to monetary supply by getting away from the source-sink model and using a more classical wealth-based model instead.
Please feel free to comment/flame/etc. there. 
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.10 21:41:00 -
[37]
I think one under-used isk sink that could be dramatically expanded is the fees chraged for using NPC manufacturing slots. The slots should become exponentially more expensive if kept in constant use, just like offices, and the baseline should be a lot higher than it is at present. In fact, CCP has already mentioned that this feature may be re-activated. At the moment, the fees are so small as to be negligible, but I see no reason why they shouldn't account for a large fraction of the production costs of an item - even, for small items, approaching 100%.
I'd also suggest adding a similar mechanism for the number of starbase charters needed per hour per tower in high sec, based on moon occupancy in each solar system, so people couldn't just dodge the charges altogether by building everything at a POS.
Zzz research towers
Direrie
NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Professor Leech
Southern Light Entertainment
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.07.10 22:26:00 -
[38]
One item I noticed is that isk sinks are often considered to generate a total isk loss for the player.
Faction ammo and implants/hardwires have an associated isk sink but are often sold for profit.
Isk sinks are not necessarily a loss.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven
this thread is obviously going places
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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.10 22:41:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Professor Leech
One item I noticed is that isk sinks are often considered to generate a total isk loss for the player.
Faction ammo and implants/hardwires have an associated isk sink but are often sold for profit.
Isk sinks are not necessarily a loss.
That's actually a very bad example as you're not just using ammo+ISK but rather ammo+ISK+LP so it's only profitable if you assign a low enough value to LP. But the point is quite valid, there are definitely ISK sinks that are profitable and those are the kind I would like to see added. My complaint is not about the rich getting richer without end as there's no real risk (I do have issues with that but we've got bigger fish to fry) but rather that their is literally too much ISK in the game. We all know what currency grower faster than commodities means and I don't think any of us want it. Considering the general population earns ISK from things that produce a fairly fixed amount per hour (mission running, ratting and high sec mining) I doubt they want to see inflation either. That's why we need more ISK sinks and they should be high-end industrial oriented because that sector deserves some love and because it has the most ISK sitting around.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Professor Leech
Southern Light Entertainment
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.07.10 23:22:00 -
[40]
LP is a strange commodity. Some people think it's worth 500-1000 isk and some people think it's worth 2000-15000 isk.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven
this thread is obviously going places
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Rebunus Troth
Caldari
Trader's Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.11 02:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
That's why we need more ISK sinks and they should be high-end industrial oriented because that sector deserves some love and because it has the most ISK sitting around.
How though do you put something in that will drain money out of the economy through industrials while engaging their stockpile of ISK? Monetary entry barriers on future manufacturing only widen the economic gap, and shrinking the margins on preexisting goods is something that is already happening.
The only idea I have come up with is required usage of NPC trade goods for meta 1+ production along with that proposed removal of T1 drops, general reduction of all non-faction ones, and the rig like production idea. That helps drain money out of the economy, but that's it.
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order.
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Posted - 2008.07.11 03:11:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Shadarle
It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies.
Here is a suggestion that will take up a lot of isk and still get you into market economics:
Hire a bunch of mercs to take on the cartel of Alliances that hold most of the Low Sec Dys/Prom moons and take them away. Then YOU will control a large percentage of the Dys/Prom market and be able to be a price setter.
It will defiantly get you both real pew-pew and market as well.
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ozz gonarun
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Posted - 2008.07.11 03:21:00 -
[43]
Before I go any farther I will tell you that I fully support hte Ebank idea and hope to be able to work with them once I get more advanced in the game.
If Ebank works like normal banks, it will take deposits, give out loans, pay interest on deposits, intake interest on loans, and also invest it's money to further increase the bank's revenue. Now what a bank does is make 1 isk into many isk. I will explain.
When Person 1 deposits 100 million into the bank, he still has 100 million open to him within all servicable hours. What the bank then does is lend out that money to other people, thus making another's wallet increase while letting the other be the same. of course this can lead to disaster as what happens when everyone tries to pull their money out at the same time, as the bank will not have it, but so far Ebank has done a very good job, along with all the depositors at the bank. Even though this is not a faucet, it multiplies isk in a way. Forgive me on my stats, but I believe that current US dollars electronically tallied double the amount of paper money worldwide. Money is used by two people or more, thus making 1 isk be worth something to 2 or more people.
Also, no matter what CCP does, people will try to work around it to get the best profit, it is the "challenge" that people are talking about.
My two cents, feel free to flame. (again I fully support Ebank)
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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.11 04:15:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Originally by: Shadarle
It has nothing to do with morals, it has everything to do with wanting EVE to remain fun, challenging and fresh for years to come and currently a lot of that is disappearing from EVE for us market junkies.
Here is a suggestion that will take up a lot of isk and still get you into market economics:
Hire a bunch of mercs to take on the cartel of Alliances that hold most of the Low Sec Dys/Prom moons and take them away. Then YOU will control a large percentage of the Dys/Prom market and be able to be a price setter.
It will defiantly get you both real pew-pew and market as well.
Everyone likes to say that but it doesn't remove a single ISK from the game and in all honesty it isn't profitable to take the highest end moons. I say that as a big moon mining and reacting guy. I've paid mercs to take and defend moons and I have made a profit at times but when you're looking at the dysprosium and promethium moons it's a big gamble and it's liable to blow up in your face.
It's a lot like saying, the biggest mafia family in town has this one really profitable block they get protection money from. Why don't we pay some thugs to beat up the mafia's usual collectors and start farming the place ourselves? For the simple reason that the mafia won't merely do a cost-benefit analysis to figure out how much they should spend retaking that block. They'll throw far more than it's worth at you because of the principle. They look weak if they loose it and that could cost them a lot more, so no matter how much you spend they'll bring more. You can spend ten time's what it'll make in a year and still not get it, not too mention make some serious enemies along the way.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.11 04:26:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 11/07/2008 04:27:58
Originally by: ozz gonarun
Before I go any farther I will tell you that I fully support hte Ebank idea and hope to be able to work with them once I get more advanced in the game.
If Ebank works like normal banks, it will take deposits, give out loans, pay interest on deposits, intake interest on loans, and also invest it's money to further increase the bank's revenue. Now what a bank does is make 1 isk into many isk. I will explain.
When Person 1 deposits 100 million into the bank, he still has 100 million open to him within all servicable hours. What the bank then does is lend out that money to other people, thus making another's wallet increase while letting the other be the same. of course this can lead to disaster as what happens when everyone tries to pull their money out at the same time, as the bank will not have it, but so far Ebank has done a very good job, along with all the depositors at the bank. Even though this is not a faucet, it multiplies isk in a way. Forgive me on my stats, but I believe that current US dollars electronically tallied double the amount of paper money worldwide. Money is used by two people or more, thus making 1 isk be worth something to 2 or more people.
Also, no matter what CCP does, people will try to work around it to get the best profit, it is the "challenge" that people are talking about.
My two cents, feel free to flame. (again I fully support Ebank)
Thank you for this pointless post, without it I wouldn't have had a very basic understanding of how a bank works. Your explanation of things that we all know was very helpful to this situation. In fact, I can't believe we were debating the need for ISK sinks without first having this explanation of the concept underlying a bank. By the way, as someone we've never heard of and who makes such valuable posts, your endorsement of EBANK is invaluable.
In the even that we can't nominate wikipedia to be the next CSM, I'd like to nominate this man. His spouting off of pointless but still slightly related explanations of things is the next best thing to randomly clicking through it's articles. After reading the transcript from the last meeting, I think the dev's deserve a week of this.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Originally by: Venkul Mul
... insured ship are a isk faucet (adding isk to the game), ....
Not really.
I had a carrier with platinum insurance. I think that with the cost of the insurance and cost of moduals lost I had to pay some 300-350m of the 1 billion in ship and moduals cost. And no not all moduals survived to be picked up.
I do believe that if CCP killed a ship then their should be no insurance payout.
To repeat it again:
No it is not a isk sink as it don't take isk out of the game universe
The billion you have paid is in the hand of another player. The isk haven't left the game.
You are poorer in assets, but the game hasn't seen isk leaving the universe, it ha seen isk entering the universe with the insurance payout.
Isk sinks, as stated in the previous post that you haven't really read, are expenses that remove isk from the game universe, not those that remove isk and assets from you.
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order.
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Posted - 2008.07.11 14:20:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
They'll throw far more than it's worth at you because of the principle. They look weak if they loose it and that could cost them a lot more, so no matter how much you spend they'll bring more.
Yes but the point was to find ways remove isk from the game.
I think this would make a large dent. 
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Killer Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.12 06:35:00 -
[48]
I believe a great isk sink would be the ability to lvl up through PURCHASING a lvl.
Start out by only being able to buy a lvl 1 skill for 1 billion isk.
to get that skill to lvl 2 pay 2 billion isk. So it gets incremental as the skill lvl goes up AND it becomes incremental the more times you do it.
So to get one skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5 it costs 15 billion. Then to get another lvl 4 skill to lvl 5, it will cost 20 billion, etc. Also different prices based on different ranks.
The amounts I gave are just suggestions, they could be any amount that CCP chooses.
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Amrumm
Rhetorical Devices
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Posted - 2008.07.12 06:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Killer Vengeance
I believe a great isk sink would be the ability to lvl up through PURCHASING a lvl.
Start out by only being able to buy a lvl 1 skill for 1 billion isk.
to get that skill to lvl 2 pay 2 billion isk. So it gets incremental as the skill lvl goes up AND it becomes incremental the more times you do it.
So to get one skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5 it costs 15 billion. Then to get another lvl 4 skill to lvl 5, it will cost 20 billion, etc. Also different prices based on different ranks.
The amounts I gave are just suggestions, they could be any amount that CCP chooses.
Character bazar
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Killer Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.12 07:06:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Amrumm
Originally by: Killer Vengeance
I believe a great isk sink would be the ability to lvl up through PURCHASING a lvl.
Start out by only being able to buy a lvl 1 skill for 1 billion isk.
to get that skill to lvl 2 pay 2 billion isk. So it gets incremental as the skill lvl goes up AND it becomes incremental the more times you do it.
So to get one skill from lvl 4 to lvl 5 it costs 15 billion. Then to get another lvl 4 skill to lvl 5, it will cost 20 billion, etc. Also different prices based on different ranks.
The amounts I gave are just suggestions, they could be any amount that CCP chooses.
Character bazar
i think you need to go back and look at what the definition of an eve sink is, that is when the money goes BACK to ccp and OUT of the economy.
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.07.12 17:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Treelox
But a lot of those same pilots are not running lvl4s or ratting.....
I made this point, Treelox made this point and still people are skipping it.
FW is an indirect isk sink, in that the people who ran missions day in and day out and flooded the markets with isk are now happily just shooting other player and not just grinding npc for isk.
So FW is an isk sink in that because of FW there is a slowing of ISK coming into the game.
Local and Covert cloaking Idea |
SiJira
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Posted - 2008.07.12 17:56:00 -
[52]
only the poor ask for isk sinks
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Killer Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.12 23:33:00 -
[53]
Originally by: SiJira
only the poor ask for isk sinks
you aren't the brightest guy on the block, are you?
an isk sink is a way to PREVENT inflation.
An isk sink would actually make iskies WORTH MORE because there are less of them.
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Danae Melios
The Vorlon Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.13 04:57:00 -
[54]
Where is the inflation that we need ISK sinks to remove money from the system? I know that in my brief stint in FW and my time in deep space and from talking with other, older players that prices if anything have come down rather than gone up, outside of certain static-supply items.
Look at ship hulls. My last Domi cost me 50 mill ISK. My Hulk and Mack both cost under 100 mill ISK-- I remember hearing about them costing half a billion ISK or more. I'm able to buy researched BPOs at a reasonable rate when I have the spare ISK to spend. I don't do officer or deadspace fittings, so maybe there is some issue there. But at least for my purposes I see little if any inflation.
So why the constant talk of ISK sinks? Where is the inflation that worries people so much?
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Alyx Farstrider
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Posted - 2008.07.14 18:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Why is this a problem? If you perceive it to be a problem and think you have too much isk, buy a bunch of BPOs and put them in the cargohold of a shuttle which you blow up with an alt, and then blow up the wreck as well. Problem solved.
Is the problem too much wealth in the hands of a few?
Or is the problem too much ISK?
Those are not the same problem.
If money enters an otherwise closed economy, the "value" of money goes down. *THAT* is the reason that CCP might want/need to impliment an ISK sink.
An astute person above me correctly posted that getting blown up in FW *adds* ISK to the economy. Buying half the BPOs that exist in EVE and destroying them would do nothing except double the ISK value of all the remaining BPOs.
That being said:-
http://eve-central.com/reports/Minerals-180.png
http://eve-central.com/reports/Rare%20Minerals-180.png
and especially:
http://eve-central.com/reports/Tier%201%20Battleship-180.png
I don't think CCP need to act to remove ISK from the economy to counteract inflation.
I can't comment on whether they need to act to counteract the gap between rich and poor.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.07.14 18:43:00 -
[56]
We are experiencing Stagflation, not inflation or deflation.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.15 01:35:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Alyx Farstrider
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Why is this a problem? If you perceive it to be a problem and think you have too much isk, buy a bunch of BPOs and put them in the cargohold of a shuttle which you blow up with an alt, and then blow up the wreck as well. Problem solved.
An astute person above me correctly posted that getting blown up in FW *adds* ISK to the economy. Buying half the BPOs that exist in EVE and destroying them would do nothing except double the ISK value of all the remaining BPOs.
T1 BPOs are NPC-seeded and have a fixed sale value unless they are heavily researched. My argument for using them as an isk-sink was also a facetious one.
Originally by: Alyx Farstrider
I can't comment on whether they need to act to counteract the gap between rich and poor.
It is impossible to "counteract" the gap between rich and poor without simply killing everyone, all you can do is change the names. From the tone of your response you seem to know this.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.15 02:25:00 -
[58]
Originally by: SiJira
only the poor ask for isk sinks
Im pretty far from poor last I checked, and I just want some more high level industrial content added to the game in the form of big ticket empire sinks.
Even if its something as stupid as letting me name a moon after myself. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.07.15 05:10:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Originally by: Alyx Farstrider
I can't comment on whether they need to act to counteract the gap between rich and poor.
It is impossible to "counteract" the gap between rich and poor without simply killing everyone, all you can do is change the names. From the tone of your response you seem to know this.
The problem is not that there is a gap between rich and poor. In any proper economy there will be. Those who are smarter, faster, stronger, etc will always outperform the competition. In fact if this does not occur then the economy is not working correctly.
The issue is not that there is a disparity but that the rich really have nothing to spend money on. There are not enough "luxury" items in EVE. Items that the rich are willing to spend insane amounts of money on that the rest of the population really does not need but would like to have and thus strive to attain them one day.
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Pax Empyrean
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Posted - 2008.07.15 14:28:00 -
[60]
Good gravy, people.
First of all, if you spend 100 million on a ship and get a 50 million insurance payout on it over the cost of insruance, there's a net increase of 50 million isk. Sure your wallet got smaller by 50 million, but the person you bought the ship from got 100 million. You lost 50 mil, he gained 100 mil, net gain to the economy is 50 mil. Losing insured ships adds ISK to the economy regardless of what kind of ships or modules are lost.
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We are experiencing Stagflation, not inflation or deflation.
Not the brightest, are you Shadarl? Stagflation is a condition of rising inflation combined with rising unemployment. You can't have stagflation without inflation. Also, saying that there is unemployment in EVE is absurd.
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The issue is not that there is a disparity but that the rich really have nothing to spend money on.
Why don't they go buy fleets of capital ships to rival the BoB-blob? The ultra-rich have plenty of stuff to spend their money on. Or they could go for a full-Estamel fit Raven or something equally ridiculous. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.
If you read the quarterly economic blogs you'd know that EVE is actually experiencing mild deflation, not inflation. There's no need for arbitrary ISK sinks. Even with ISK flowing into the game from rats and insurance, ship production, loot, and mining are still increasing at a faster pace. Thus, deflation.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.15 18:45:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Pax Empyrean
Why don't they go buy fleets of capital ships to rival the BoB-blob? The ultra-rich have plenty of stuff to spend their money on. Or they could go for a full-Estamel fit Raven or something equally ridiculous. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.
If you read the quarterly economic blogs you'd know that EVE is actually experiencing mild deflation, not inflation. There's no need for arbitrary ISK sinks. Even with ISK flowing into the game from rats and insurance, ship production, loot, and mining are still increasing at a faster pace. Thus, deflation.
High level industrial content. PvP and PvE have an end game far beyond what industrialists have.
And no offense to the economic guy CCP hired, but to be perfectly blunt. There are at least 3 MD regulars here who have out predicted him, and accurately predicted changes based on expansion/patches to the point where they might as well be crystal balls.
Honestly I'd sooner have Akita at the economic helm at the moment. |
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