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CCP, what did you intend with the weapon limits?

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ekalami	Posted - 2008.07.10 11:50:00 - [1] When designing this game, what did you have in mind when choosing gun tracking, and missile and drone speed limits? Did you intend for the cruiser class to be unhittable by cruiser sized guns, missiles and drones if fitted in a certain way? How do you feel about certain cases where the cruiser class is unhittable by even frigate sized guns, missiles and drones? I was under the impression limits were set such that ships of the same class could hit each other with their weapons, but limited so that they wouldnt be so effective against the ship class below. For example, a cruiser's weapons would be limited in effectiveness against frigate hulls. Clearly im wrong though, since it is impossible to hit nano-cruisers with cruiser sized weapons, so I am left wondering what the gun tracking, missile/drone speed limits are for? Its possible im not so wrong, and maybe you didnt intend cruisers to perform beyond the limits of cruiser sized weapons, in which case you must feel the nano idea is overpowered. To all the (motivated by self interest and not balance) flamers pile into this thread, I stress that im not expressing a view on nanoships etc at all. I am simply asking the question of why the cruiser weapon limits are the way they are, and seeking to clarify which ship class they are intended to to be able to hit!
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.10 11:52:00 - [2] Regardles of that last sentece in the OP, this actually IS another nano-whine post..
Nayleen Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.07.10 11:52:00 - [3] ----
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.07.10 11:53:00 - [4] Originally by: CrayC Regardles of that last sentece in the OP, this actually IS another nano-whine post.. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Armoured C Gallente The Aztecs Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.10 11:54:00 - [5] oooh noes nanooooooo whine alert
Eve Voleur	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:01:00 - [6] I can hit nano ships just fine. Your skills must suck, or maybe you don't know how to work transversal. Or maybe both, your skills suck AND you suck at flying. Sounds like you just suck. Maybe you should learn to play the game instead of cry on the forums.
ekalami	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:03:00 - [7] Blimey, the pro-nano people really seem insecure right now. Wonder why that is? My question is simply asking for the game design rationale behind the limits chosen for the performance of eve's various weapon types, since i thought i understood, but now realise that I probably dont understand them. I am simply seeking an answer to a question. The only reason I can see for getting all 'nano-defensive' would be if the answer to my (completely different) question indirectly or directly showed the nano-craze to be overpowered.
Voodoo Mistross SPORADIC MOVEMENT The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:05:00 - [8] Originally by: CrayC Regardles of that last sentece in the OP, this actually IS another nano-whine post..

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:08:00 - [9] Mork&Mindy! Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

ekalami	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:12:00 - [10] It appears that so far, no-one else knows the design rationale for weapon limits either! Glad im not the only one. Not a single post has been able to shed any light on this issue, and instead, just a load of pro-nano flame/junk posts instead. Really glad i asked the question now, as im clearly not the only one who has no clue on this issue.

Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:12:00 - [11] Originally by: ekalami I am simply seeking an answer to a question. The only reason I can see for getting all 'nano-defensive' would be if the answer to my (completely different) question indirectly or directly showed the nano-craze to be overpowered. You want an answer? Fine. Medium turrets have no problems tracking nanos, if you know what you're doing. Unless 200 DPS isn't enough for you, that is. Can provide you with setups for both ships if you want to try it in EFT yourself. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:12:00 - [12] Originally by: ekalami Clearly im wrong though, since it is impossible to hit nano-cruisers with cruiser sized weapons, so I am left wondering what the gun tracking, missile/drone speed limits are for? Using this arguement nano gun cruisers shouldn't be able to hit you. Train better skills, use better ammo, adapt improvise and overcome. Assumption of Risk
Gcuz Caldari Roid Humpers Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Chribba Mork&Mindy! NANO NANO!!! (OMG - Did I just give away my age!!)
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:14:00 - [14] Ship weapons of any class are designed to not always hit. Whether your weapons hit depend mostly on how you fly your ship, the composition of your gang, and your use of other modules to engineer situations where your weapons hit and blow up the enemy. For example, battleship guns hit cruiser sized ships well if they are accompanied by a web and heading away to reduce transversal. They also hit well if you use the long range versions at extreme range, unless the cruisers manouver at high speed to avoid your fire. _
Voodoo Mistross SPORADIC MOVEMENT The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:15:00 - [15] Train some skills, take advice on set ups, deal with it OR <---Hello Kitty Online / WoW------>
Tellenta Gallente Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:17:00 - [16] Edited by: Tellenta on 10/07/2008 12:18:34 I can't hit people from 30 km away with my medium blasters, but the missiles hit me no problem. Nerf missiles!!!! also hiya sav.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:17:00 - [17] Originally by: ekalami Did you intend for the cruiser class to be unhittable by cruiser sized guns, missiles and drones if fitted in a certain way? How do you feel about certain cases where the cruiser class is unhittable by even frigate sized guns, missiles and drones? Is that a "nerf cloak" thread? Because even 15km/s interceptors are hittable with small guns, never mind nanoed cruisers. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
MenanceWhite Amarr Red Light Navy	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:19:00 - [18] That's simple. Would you use a hammer to smash a bug? No, you use the flyswatter. But despite the fact that the flyswatter was designed to smack bugs there's always these ones that manages to escape. They've got such fast reaction and speed that they can avoid your flyswatter, just like how nanoes are so fast that they can avoid turrets intended for their size Your argument is now nothing else than another nanowhine. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:20:00 - [19] Originally by: ekalami Did you intend for the cruiser class to be unhittable by cruiser sized guns, missiles and drones if fitted in a certain way? How do you feel about certain cases where the cruiser class is unhittable by even frigate sized guns, missiles and drones? Seeing as how a good old-fashioned 250mm RailII can reliably hit (and damage severly) a cruiser-sized target wooshing about at 4kps, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're talking about here…
DmitryEKT Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:22:00 - [20] T2 precision light missiles, fired from assault launchers (note: cruiser-sized weapon) will make mincemeat of nano ships going under 10km/s. This I know because my inty orbitting at 7k was getting hit for 20/missile, from a caracal... and I know the guy didn't have anywhere near max skills... Warrior II drones, when fit on a ship with a couple drone navigation mods, will do the same. so, to the op, what's your point? ------------------ Screw God. In Chribba we trust!

ekalami	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:25:00 - [21] Originally by: Tamia Clant You want an answer? Fine. Medium turrets have no problems tracking nanos, if you know what you're doing. Unless 200 DPS isn't enough for you, that is. Can provide you with setups for both ships if you want to try it in EFT yourself. Thank you for trying to answer my question. Unfortunately I dont bother using EFT since the early version i tried gave false DPS figures for turret ships as it simply didnt account for the fact turrets can miss. As such, im not sure what the image you link is trying to show?
Sphynx Stormlord Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:27:00 - [22] Enough with the Cloak whines. YES, cruiser sized ships which are fitted with an activated cloak ARE supposed to be unhittable with cruiser sized guns.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:29:00 - [23] Originally by: DmitryEKT T2 precision light missiles, fired from assault launchers (note: cruiser-sized weapon) will make mincemeat of nano ships going under 10km/s. This I know because my inty orbitting at 7k was getting hit for 20/missile, from a caracal... and I know the guy didn't have anywhere near max skills... Max-skills precision lights have 4500 explosion velocity (rigs can increase that further to a bit over 6km/sec) and 1500 falloff, with around 25m explosion radius. I can only assume you WERE NOT using an afterburner to go that fast, so sigradius reduction is completely out of the question. Going just 8km/sec instead of the 7km/sec you were going would have reduced the missile damage to nearly nothing, and at 9km/sec you would have been practically invulnerable already. Quote: Warrior II drones, when fit on a ship with a couple drone navigation mods, will do the same. 9km/sec and not even max-skills, dual drone nav computer will actually help there. You know... just saying. _ *The mineral/moonstuff balance \|\| THE* nanofix**
Armoured C Gallente The Aztecs Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:29:00 - [24] Originally by: ekalami Originally by: Tamia Clant You want an answer? Fine. Medium turrets have no problems tracking nanos, if you know what you're doing. Unless 200 DPS isn't enough for you, that is. Can provide you with setups for both ships if you want to try it in EFT yourself. Thank you for trying to answer my question. Unfortunately I dont bother using EFT since the early version i tried gave false DPS figures for turret ships as it simply didnt account for the fact turrets can miss. As such, im not sure what the image you link is trying to show? well get the updated version
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:29:00 - [25] Edited by: Tamia Clant on 10/07/2008 12:30:19 Originally by: ekalami Originally by: Tamia Clant You want an answer? Fine. Medium turrets have no problems tracking nanos, if you know what you're doing. Unless 200 DPS isn't enough for you, that is. Can provide you with setups for both ships if you want to try it in EFT yourself. Thank you for trying to answer my question. Unfortunately I dont bother using EFT since the early version i tried gave false DPS figures for turret ships as it simply didnt account for the fact turrets can miss. As such, im not sure what the image you link is trying to show? You might need to click the image to get the expanded version so you can actually read stuff. As you can see, there's a DPS graph on the screenshot (you can open one in "File -> New DPS Graph") that does take turret tracking and target velocity into account to calculate damage per second. As you can see on the graph, you get roughly 210 DPS when firing at 22.5 km away from the target, assuming it's at 100% velocity. (and it never is while orbitting, so you'd hit even easier) Regardless, if you don't trust EFT to be accurate, feel free to go into the Singularity server and try it out. Obviously, you'll need either good tracking skills or modules to compensate for it if you have low skills, but you should easily hit any nano ship orbitting you if you're using the correct turrets. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Liranan M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Chribba Mork&Mindy! You sir are a genius! Can someone tell me who Mork & Mindy are? Farjung is my God
DmitryEKT Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: DmitryEKT T2 precision light missiles, fired from assault launchers (note: cruiser-sized weapon) will make mincemeat of nano ships going under 10km/s. This I know because my inty orbitting at 7k was getting hit for 20/missile, from a caracal... and I know the guy didn't have anywhere near max skills... Max-skills precision lights have 4500 explosion velocity (rigs can increase that further to a bit over 6km/sec) and 1500 falloff, with around 25m explosion radius. I can only assume you WERE NOT using an afterburner to go that fast, so sigradius reduction is completely out of the question. Going just 8km/sec instead of the 7km/sec you were going would have reduced the missile damage to nearly nothing, and at 9km/sec you would have been practically invulnerable already. Ofcourse I was using a MWD. Sig radius well over 100. However, I'm not convinced that it's purely an explosion velocity thing, because I was testing it with standard missiles and they were still doing plenty of damage at 4.5k/s on a ship without supporting rigs. The thing is, if the actual missile itself can go faster than the ship, ie noticably faster, then it will hurt quite a bit, with a decent explosion velocity, because it explodes in front of the ship... To see this in action, just take an unfitted frigate, and shoot a torp at it, as it's flying towards you, then away from you... because the torp explodes in a different place due to the flight path of the ship, the damage is changed... ------------------ Screw God. In Chribba we trust!
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:38:00 - [28] Originally by: DmitryEKT Ofcourse I was using a MWD. Sig radius well over 100. However, I'm not convinced that it's purely an explosion velocity thing, because I was testing it with standard missiles and they were still doing plenty of damage at 4.5k/s on a ship without supporting rigs. The thing is, if the actual missile itself can go faster than the ship, ie noticably faster, then it will hurt quite a bit, with a decent explosion velocity, because it explodes in front of the ship... To see this in action, just take an unfitted frigate, and shoot a torp at it, as it's flying towards you, then away from you... because the torp explodes in a different place due to the flight path of the ship, the damage is changed... This is incorrect, missiles do not take direction vectors into account when calculating explosion velocity. Basically it works like this: - Missile needs to have higher velocity than ship to damage it - If the above happens, the explosion velocity of the missile is compared with the ship's velocity - The same procedure is done for sig radius and explosion radius It doesn't matter at all if the missile hits the target's tail or head-on. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:41:00 - [29] Originally by: DmitryEKT However, I'm not convinced that it's purely an explosion velocity thing, because I was testing it with standard missiles and they were still doing plenty of damage at 4.5k/s on a ship without supporting rigs. Standards get 2625 m/sec expvelo (with same 1500 falloff) at max skills and no rigs. 4.5kmps is well within "still hurts" range. Quote: The thing is, if the actual missile itself can go faster than the ship, ie noticably faster, then it will hurt quite a bit, with a decent explosion velocity, because it explodes in front of the ship Completely and uterly wrong. It doesn't matter one bit if the missile collides with you head on or comes from the back. The missile velocity has absolutely no influence over the explosion velocity, the ONLY thing that matters in speed-wise damage reduction. Quote: To see this in action, just take an unfitted frigate, and shoot a torp at it, as it's flying towards you, then away from you... because the torp explodes in a different place due to the flight path of the ship, the damage is changed... You might want to do this yourself and notice the damage is identical. _ *The mineral/moonstuff balance \|\| THE* nanofix**
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:47:00 - [30] Originally by: DmitryEKT T2 precision light missiles, fired from assault launchers (note: cruiser-sized weapon) will make mincemeat of nano ships going under 10km/s. This I know because my inty orbitting at 7k was getting hit for 20/missile, from a caracal... and I know the guy didn't have anywhere near max skills... Duh, precision lights are supposed to be used against frigates and inties. Light missiles are not cruiser-size weapons, cruiser-size missiles are heavies and HAMs, assault launchers only exist so that cruisers don't get totally pwned by small targets. Lights don't quite cut it against a nanoHAC because DPS is low, and precision heavies are total crap and can't deal noticable damage on 4.5km/s targets even with max skills.



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