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Memnyrix	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Memnyrix on 10/07/2008 15:49:31 I'd like to see a vessel introduced with the ability to both scan and do combat, which would prevent the hassle of changing ships especially when you find a site in unfriendly territory. It could be prevented from being used as a simple search and destroy vessel by giving it time reduction bonuses to specifically the Scan Probe Launcher, which would make in an ineffective recon ship. It would probably need CPU, or a CPU reduction bonus to the Scan probe launcher, and a few mid and high slots for equipping the necessities like the analyzer and codebreaker, while at the same time housing adequate combat ability to do some unknown sites. Perhaps even a ship like this for each non-capital ship size would be nice (frigate, cruiser, battleship). Faction or T2 wouldnt bother me and I'm sure many explorers would appreciate such a ship no matter how hard it is to acquire since I know many go through a lot to get the Sisters Scan Probe Launcher. I'm sad something like this wasn't discussed at the summit but hopefully such a ship comes about.
Memnyrix	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:45:00 - [2] Edited by: Memnyrix on 10/07/2008 15:49:31 I'd like to see a vessel introduced with the ability to both scan and do combat, which would prevent the hassle of changing ships especially when you find a site in unfriendly territory. It could be prevented from being used as a simple search and destroy vessel by giving it time reduction bonuses to specifically the Scan Probe Launcher, which would make in an ineffective recon ship. It would probably need CPU, or a CPU reduction bonus to the Scan probe launcher, and a few mid and high slots for equipping the necessities like the analyzer and codebreaker, while at the same time housing adequate combat ability to do some unknown sites. Perhaps even a ship like this for each non-capital ship size would be nice (frigate, cruiser, battleship). Faction or T2 wouldnt bother me and I'm sure many explorers would appreciate such a ship no matter how hard it is to acquire since I know many go through a lot to get the Sisters Scan Probe Launcher. I'm sad something like this wasn't discussed at the summit but hopefully such a ship comes about.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:52:00 - [3] This was already suggested and was turned down by the CSM.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:52:00 - [4] This was already suggested and was turned down by the CSM.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:05:00 - [5] We haven't officially decided what to do about issues recurring and in a situation where convincing arguments can be made that that the CSM reached an incorrect decision first time around I'm not averse to hearing items a second time. The player base has raised some pertinent criticism about our handling of this issue - I think its worth us asking ourselves if we made the correct decision since the exploration ship debate has direct impact on solo playstyle and expansion of a whole area of game content. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Mazzarins Demise Profit Development and Research Association	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Jade Constantine We haven't officially decided what to do about issues recurring and in a situation where convincing arguments can be made that that the CSM reached an incorrect decision first time around I'm not averse to hearing items a second time. The player base has raised some pertinent criticism about our handling of this issue - I think its worth us asking ourselves if we made the correct decision since the exploration ship debate has direct impact on solo playstyle and expansion of a whole area of game content. I'm glad this is the case. Most exploration content can be completed solo it just can get a wee bit annoying to have to consistently switch in and out of ships for exploring, clearing and then hacking/archeology. An Exploration-Specific vessel can help save time, that's about it really. While it was turn downed originally, I'm glad the opportunity to present it again is available.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Mazzarins Demise Originally by: Jade Constantine We haven't officially decided what to do about issues recurring and in a situation where convincing arguments can be made that that the CSM reached an incorrect decision first time around I'm not averse to hearing items a second time. The player base has raised some pertinent criticism about our handling of this issue - I think its worth us asking ourselves if we made the correct decision since the exploration ship debate has direct impact on solo playstyle and expansion of a whole area of game content. I'm glad this is the case. Most exploration content can be completed solo it just can get a wee bit annoying to have to consistently switch in and out of ships for exploring, clearing and then hacking/archeology. An Exploration-Specific vessel can help save time, that's about it really. While it was turn downed originally, I'm glad the opportunity to present it again is available. I'm very much convinced we need a better discussion on the issue, since a lot of decent arguments came from the originators of the thread. I personally love the idea of solo explorers out in hazardous space being able to operate from one ship (like an science/exploration) vessel and make a living from this stuff. And I find that always forcing players to use multiple ships / gang mates for every task is actually forcing a degree of conformity into playstyle that shouldn't exist in a sandbox environment like eve. This universe needs room for loners and maverick explorers in the deep frontier and I think this issue promotes that. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
MadMax Miner	Posted - 2008.07.10 18:01:00 - [8] I like to explore and think that the ships we have now are sufficent.....exploration ships should not be designed to be able to take out everything thats out there. Theres to much computer AI and what not for the scanning that takes up all the room. T2 frigs for scanning should be enough. and the excuse that one can not do the plexs by themselfs in low or null sec is not very defendebal. People with enough experiance and proper combat ship (once the site is found) will be able to handle all the threats. Just because u can not jump into all the better null sec areas right away should not be the argument to have a bigger ship for that purpose. It takes time to train to the level to handle all the Rats in the null sec plexes. This "we need bigger ships for exploration because i dont want to go back for my other ship" is a silly and empty argument. Skill up to be able to meet the threats and u wont have a problem doing it solo. You need to change your outlook on life. You cant have everything at once and right away.
Slanty McGarglefist	Posted - 2008.07.10 18:10:00 - [9] Originally by: MadMax Miner Huh? This post makes no sense. People aren't asking for an all-in-one ship because they can't do low or null sec exploration by themselves. It was proposed so people don't have to switch ships so often. Originally by: MadMax Miner Skill up to be able to meet the threats and u wont have a problem doing it solo. You need to change your outlook on life. You cant have everything at once and right away. People can already meet the threats. This ship would just cut down on travel time. I agree with you to an extent about skilling up sans the soapbox banter about lifestyle changes or some garbage. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
White Ronin Gallente Screenout	Posted - 2008.07.11 02:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Jade Constantine We haven't officially decided what to do about issues recurring and in a situation where convincing arguments can be made that that the CSM reached an incorrect decision first time around I'm not averse to hearing items a second time. The player base has raised some pertinent criticism about our handling of this issue - I think its worth us asking ourselves if we made the correct decision since the exploration ship debate has direct impact on solo playstyle and expansion of a whole area of game content. Please explain how the CSM verdict/opinion the "they are just being lazy" is arguable in any context and that may work. Till then if it doesnt impact the csm directly then they wont support it. My suggestion to the op is get enough isk together to pay the CSM to actually do something other then talk about the "lazy" explorers who dare to no want to treck 40 jumps back and forth to get a ship that can do the site you just found. Oh, and Eve is a multiplayer game and solo content is frowned on by many of the CSM. Check the minutes. Trust me, the isk route is the best bet of getting anything done. Good luck. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "
Khwalik Ghetto Kings	Posted - 2008.07.18 11:08:00 - [11] Originally by: MadMax Miner I like to explore and think that the ships we have now are sufficent.....exploration ships should not be designed to be able to take out everything thats out there. Theres to much computer AI and what not for the scanning that takes up all the room. T2 frigs for scanning should be enough. and the excuse that one can not do the plexs by themselfs in low or null sec is not very defendebal. People with enough experiance and proper combat ship (once the site is found) will be able to handle all the threats. Just because u can not jump into all the better null sec areas right away should not be the argument to have a bigger ship for that purpose. It takes time to train to the level to handle all the Rats in the null sec plexes. This "we need bigger ships for exploration because i dont want to go back for my other ship" is a silly and empty argument. Skill up to be able to meet the threats and u wont have a problem doing it solo. You need to change your outlook on life. You cant have everything at once and right away. This really isn't the point of what many of us were seeking at all...personally I am wanting a sufficient large scale exploration ship as a matter of convience, sure but it gets old having to use an alt parked in a safe spot, and having more than one ship in a given area I'm trying to work is also just making it easier for me to get scanned out. And trust me my outlook on life is just fine as are my skills. I still think the idea of a new exploration ship has some merit so I'm glad to see the topic still being kicked around even if it's on the back burner.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.18 15:23:00 - [12] I'm an explorer and I'd like to see something like this as well - I think there are plenty of ways to make it not an "all in one" ship. Looking at the Marauders alone, there are techniques that can be used to hamstring a ship for PvP but give it PvE advantages, like the abnormally weak sensor strength. An exploration ship could be made to be incompatible with the Recon Probe Launcher so that it is only used for hunting down exploration sites and not players, could have an abnormally large sig radius, weak sensor strength, etc. to counteract a larger hull being equipped with combat and cloaking capabilities for exploration purposes. There's also the possibility that it wouldn't need a covops cloak - but these are all details CCP would figure out anyway, and it's more about the need explorers have for a platform to meet their playstyle.
Khwalik Ghetto Kings	Posted - 2008.07.20 19:43:00 - [13] All be it I have only really been into exploration pretty heavy for last 6-8 months in EvE. One thing that I kinda feel though is that people those involved in 'exploration' and it's related activities are kinda treated as 'red headed stepchildren with a stutter' that no one really wants to embrace... Cept when we put plex mods on the contract system maybe. Now there was all that talk awhile back in the dev blogs talking about changes to exploration added content blah blah that well, I'm not holding my breath to see, I have enough diversity in my EvE path not to be too upset about it, I do however feel that solo players are really getting the short end of the stick in EvE and most likely will continue. And yes I know blah blah blah EvE is supposed to be a 'group' circle jerk or whatever, for some players proper group work just isn't a possibility, my schedule varies too much to really roll with a proper corp....but I also don't play solo all the time. Exploration is one of the kinda 'true' solo activities I can do at a given time as well as mining but man can not exist on roids alone. And trade and manufacturing same thing. Exploration offers some decent content possibilities if properly thought out. Lack of any real options in ship choice for a solo player...alts not being counted is kinda lame. Not everyone is willing to throw down on multiple accounts, and I soon may be another when one of my secondary accounts expires. You have to admit that exploration as a career path really has probably the least amount of choice in ship choice, and this is really rather lucrative career path if done properly. Just kinda suprises me, not ranting I'm used to the things in EvE I don't like but work around but in all honesty there could be some things done to make exploration better...if nothing else work towards perhaps some mod changes and make the 'virtue' set a bit more applicable or at least accessable from other agents than SOE. Than maybe other ships could be more suited for all around exploration use. Just my 2 isk worth.
Kambo AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.21 14:08:00 - [14] Well as I posted in another thread, Exploration ships do make sence to a degree. However, as it stands now Exploration isn't really the best way to earn a living, exept for few rather exploration dedicated regions (drug production etc). It's fun to do for some diverse, but 10/10 plexes that drop the good complex modules can't and shouldnt be soloable in my opinion. As for the empire explorers, you got stations everywhere, put a cruiser around the systems that u explore and u're done. Exploration ships in 0.0 however make much more sence since the outposts are scattered over great distances. However the last thing I want to see around my exploration routes is carebears runing exploration ships, stealing my loot! I know it sounds selfish, but, well... thats EVE isnt it? I already need to compete against other explorers of my alliance and naibor alliances. The good stuff is rare and there are enough ppl going after it already. Exploration takes far too few skills to work, compare it to mining, combat or industry and u'll see what I mean. Maybe thats why it's so popular, but you dont need a dedicated ship for it. Mining takes atleast 2 ships, solo combat is a myth... well solo steath bombers and recons can gank stupid pilots and that really is it. Ratting in the drone regions takes atleast 2 ships to work decently (even if u fly a marauder). Even if CCP brings out a dedicated exploration ship I'd probalby keep dualboxing my buzzard and ishtar pilots to do exploration.
tripodbilly	Posted - 2008.07.24 08:24:00 - [15] A dedicated exploration ship should be available, but i think it shoudnt come with no combat bonus's, and should require lots of science and combat skills to use (plus the spaceship command skills too). The high skill req's would make it unavailable to newer players and allow specilization in that area (as appose to an interest). Also if it has exploration bonus's with no combat bonus's it wouldnt be too useful in PvP which hopefully would make hunting it and being hunted quite exiting. Just my two isk's
Sunicro Starweaver Transilience Industries	Posted - 2008.07.25 18:13:00 - [16] I would love to see a dedicated exploration ship introduced. A ship with the exploration bonus (equal to or better than current) and that has a bonus to probe carrying capabilities. I want to be able to carry enough probes to scan down at least 2 systems for any type of site found (ie full set of each type of probes). The only ships with the bonus now are so small for storage, that you have to have another ship to carry extra probes and carry the loot away. I don't think that a dedicated exploration ship should also get combat bonuses, because then it isn't a DEDICATED exploration ship. Just my thoughts Plan for tomorrow, Strive for Today, can't let anxiety get in our way, so play play play!
Ankhesentapemkah	Posted - 2008.07.26 14:44:00 - [17] I still hold the opinion that the way the CSM voted down this issue, especially with the argumentation that 'explorers are just lazy' and 'eve isn't a solo game blahblah', was very narrowminded and that we as CSM should look into this issue again. I'm willing to handle the paperworks of this issue, if it matters. --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.26 22:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I still hold the opinion that the way the CSM voted down this issue, especially with the argumentation that 'explorers are just lazy' and 'eve isn't a solo game blahblah', was very narrowminded and that we as CSM should look into this issue again. I'm willing to handle the paperworks of this issue, if it matters. Please do Ank and you'll have my support with it. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Quantum Light	Posted - 2008.07.27 22:44:00 - [19] Even as a explorer I can see the argument against a "all in one" type ship. BUT our only choice now is lucky to last 1-2 hits by low lev pirates. I at least would like to see a exploration ship with maybe still the one high slot, but with some added mid and low slots and some more cargo area. No offensive capability at all like we have now, but you can take more than one shot from the NPC's without going down. Something where you could at least jump into a area and last long enough to open a can or something without loosing your ship in 2 shots.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.27 23:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Quantum Light Even as a explorer I can see the argument against a "all in one" type ship. BUT our only choice now is lucky to last 1-2 hits by low lev pirates. I at least would like to see a exploration ship with maybe still the one high slot, but with some added mid and low slots and some more cargo area. No offensive capability at all like we have now, but you can take more than one shot from the NPC's without going down. Something where you could at least jump into a area and last long enough to open a can or something without loosing your ship in 2 shots. Maybe something out of the mining frigates? Instead of covops cloaking bonuses, make them flying astrometrics bricks.
Sunicro Starweaver Transilience Industries	Posted - 2008.07.28 13:59:00 - [21] I had another thought that would really help the Dedicated explorer ship. Give the ship the ability to select how far to make a Jump, up to a max of say 3-5 AU. This way we could get proper probe coverage on all planets. Make it to where it only works by jumping from a planet and also have it require an advanced skill. Call it controlled Warp, gives 1 au per level of jump per level of skill, ship specific. This would really add to the the Explorer Career path and the Ship capabilities. Then if they added more things to do in and exploration sites, would would be really having fun. Stories that lead us to other sites that require a key to even find them from a previous site. Anything to spice things up. Why do only unknowns have escalation triggers? Lets give more reason to be an explorer . Plan for tomorrow, Strive for Today, can't let anxiety get in our way, so play play play!
Arngorf Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.07.31 06:13:00 - [22] Originally by: MadMax Miner I like to explore and think that the ships we have now are sufficent.....exploration ships should not be designed to be able to take out everything thats out there. Theres to much computer AI and what not for the scanning that takes up all the room. T2 frigs for scanning should be enough. and the excuse that one can not do the plexs by themselfs in low or null sec is not very defendebal. People with enough experiance and proper combat ship (once the site is found) will be able to handle all the threats. Just because u can not jump into all the better null sec areas right away should not be the argument to have a bigger ship for that purpose. It takes time to train to the level to handle all the Rats in the null sec plexes. What about the Maraudors? they were never needed for doing missions but still they implemented a ship which could both do the missions with ease! AND salavge the whole lot and loot with its awesomly large cargohold. Originally by: MadMax Miner This "we need bigger ships for exploration because i dont want to go back for my other ship" is a silly and empty argument. Skill up to be able to meet the threats and u wont have a problem doing it solo. You need to change your outlook on life. You cant have everything at once and right away. Traveling becomes a pain when you need to move more than one ship around over longer distances for just that one purpose of doing exploration sites.. having a ship that does both can be awesome without being unbalanced as long as it is not made unbalanced. A ship that could do a 10/10 complex and also scan its location is not desireable bit for use in low sec and high sec I see it a a good idea. Players may even want to use a covert ship over a potential new ship, because if this kind of ship should be balanced, it wouldn't be as effecient as the covert ofc. __________________________________
cain mjolnir	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:11:00 - [23] Sounds interesting.
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 23:02:00 - [24] Of course, exploring with a partner who flys something ready to do a little combat on rats really helps... I explore, and use a Helios. I have never minded the swapping ships...since I mostly have a wing-person with me when I scan out sites. Placement of probes for optimum coverage is easy with a little practice, if one also remembers that moons can also be flown too... Exploring carries risks, and has good rewards. It shouldn't be a way to make fast and easy iskies by introducing a exploration/combat ship. Arithron
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.01 03:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Barstander on 01/08/2008 03:31:16 Originally by: Arithron Of course, exploring with a partner who flys something ready to do a little combat on rats really helps... I explore, and use a Helios. I have never minded the swapping ships...since I mostly have a wing-person with me when I scan out sites. Placement of probes for optimum coverage is easy with a little practice, if one also remembers that moons can also be flown too... Exploring carries risks, and has good rewards. It shouldn't be a way to make fast and easy iskies by introducing a exploration/combat ship. Arithron I support this thread and there needs to be a serious discussion on the topic. Replies like the one above are what got this idea thrown out with no real thought offered. Nobody is asking for a ship that can locate and run a 10/10 solo. What we are asking for is the ability to explore out a site, and then complete at least the moderately difficult ones. Its ridiculous to go 15 jumps, finally find a site, and then have to track back 15 jumps, get my ship, jump back 15 jumps, run the site, go back 15 jumps get my covops and start again. Its not being lazy anymore than having jump capable ships makes those players lazy. (and no, I'm not asking for the exploration ship to be jump capable, just making a time waste comparison).
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Barstander Edited by: Barstander on 01/08/2008 03:31:16 Originally by: Arithron Of course, exploring with a partner who flys something ready to do a little combat on rats really helps... I explore, and use a Helios. I have never minded the swapping ships...since I mostly have a wing-person with me when I scan out sites. Placement of probes for optimum coverage is easy with a little practice, if one also remembers that moons can also be flown too... Exploring carries risks, and has good rewards. It shouldn't be a way to make fast and easy iskies by introducing a exploration/combat ship. Arithron I support this thread and there needs to be a serious discussion on the topic. Replies like the one above are what got this idea thrown out with no real thought offered. Nobody is asking for a ship that can locate and run a 10/10 solo. What we are asking for is the ability to explore out a site, and then complete at least the moderately difficult ones. Its ridiculous to go 15 jumps, finally find a site, and then have to track back 15 jumps, get my ship, jump back 15 jumps, run the site, go back 15 jumps get my covops and start again. Its not being lazy anymore than having jump capable ships makes those players lazy. (and no, I'm not asking for the exploration ship to be jump capable, just making a time waste comparison). I'll admit I'm not too knowledgeable on the topic, so my question is - why are marauders currently unable to perform this task? Is it the lack of bonuses? CPU/grid to fit scanners? From what I see, you can fit scan probe launcher, full rack of weapons, and a decent tank on all of these.
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:41:00 - [27] Edited by: Barstander on 01/08/2008 05:42:07 Scan time is part of it, a ship without the bonus means fewer scans per probe, which means many more probes in the cargo hold. Also, I'm trying to EFT a Golem and I'm having a lot of CPU problems with the launcher, at least one hacking or analyzer and any kind of reasonable fitting. Another popular ship currently is the Pilgrim, though that too is about as awkward as a middle school dance. In essence, this is sort of like the days when people mined with battleships. Yes, it worked. It could have been left like that even though it always felt wrong. Thankfully we got barges and then exhumers. Same principle here. Yeah, we can get by either ganging up, or making a lot of jumps back and forth but its a ship role begging for a dedicated class. I know that exploring isn't the most popular area of the game, but it is really fun for the few who pour ourselves into it. And I felt more than a little slighted by how casually our concerns were dismissed as being lazy.
Monuturattilor	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Barstander Edited by: Barstander on 01/08/2008 05:42:07 And I felt more than a little slighted by how casually our concerns were dismissed as being lazy. Agreed. Looking at the other "things to do" in EVE, mining for example, does also require to move several ships somewhere, but you havn't emptied a new system for asteroids in a couple of hours like when an exploration "guy" finds a useless site and will have to move on.. The difficuly of getting to a site is challenging enough allready -> you'll have to find a site and scan it down b4 you can get to it. Others might beat you to it, and the site doesn't even have to be that interesting.. you can have scanned for hours finding nothing of interest. The moving of additional ships is just ruining the fun.
White Ronin Gallente Screenout	Posted - 2008.08.01 12:44:00 - [29] Has anyone noticed that the answer to many things in Eve is "get an alt account"? Honestly, if it takes two subscriptions to play the game right then Eve is more broke then I thought. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.01 13:18:00 - [30] Interesting how a suggestion of exploring with a combat-ready partner is taken as an accusation of being lazy! My point is that exploration, especially for the moderate to difficult sites, is ideally suited to two players working together. There are ships currently available to use if you want to solo the easy and moderate sites. You do have to wait a little longer for the probes to scan, and so it takes longer to track down the sites. With that said, I fail to see your point? There already are exploration ships, and combat ships that can be used for exploration; you choose to either solo and ship swap, or solo and wait a little longer to track down sites- or you do it with a partner. Invaribly, I expect players want the ability to cloak and warp,scan quickly to track down sites, and then take care of rats and collect the loot at the site. Noone said it should be easy to earn a living....there are plenty of other games where it is... Arithron

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