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Criminal Flagging - how will it work?

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Hakera	Posted - 2004.05.22 12:04:00 - [1] I know roughly how criminal flagging might work, but seeing as it is in the patch coming next week I was wondering if Lickspittle (I think he was the dev who coded it) or anyone else can explain how it's going to work. I assume, that anyone assisting an aggressor becomes a legitimate target to fire upon, will get a sec hit and concord response if possible? What about in corp wars where people use non war allies to shield/cap tf to the corp war buddies? Will they become legal targets? Does criminal flagging apply to can theft etc? So yeah - need some details! Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Isiana	Posted - 2004.05.22 12:55:00 - [2] Anyone that is flagged as a criminal could be shot at by anyone - Give a Security raise to the one/gang who kills a flagged person as a reward for serving the law Carebear\|Me Alts
Torlek	Posted - 2004.05.22 13:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Isiana Anyone that is flagged as a criminal could be shot at by anyone - Give a Security raise to the one/gang who kills a flagged person as a reward for serving the law That would be far to open to exploit, what's to stop people flagging anyone they like and openening up? There has to be more to it than that. CCP are not that stupid.... === [i]I'm telling you Teal'C if we don't find a way out of this soon I'm gonna loose it. Loose it, it means go crazy, nuts, insane, bonzo, no longer in possession of ones faculties, 3 fries shor
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2004.05.22 14:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Torlek That would be far to open to exploit, what's to stop people flagging anyone they like and openening up? There has to be more to it than that. CCP are not that stupid.... Player's dont flag others. The system does. Pain is meant to be felt
Isiana	Posted - 2004.05.22 14:24:00 - [5] Devils Advocate - Anyone could use an alt to open up in high sec, space (somep lace with only him and ur main there - innitiate agression - main kills him, gains sec stat Raise and repeat Carebear\|Me Alts
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.05.22 14:30:00 - [6] Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 22/05/2004 14:31:15 the system is ment for Ore Thiefs though, CONCORD will still show up if u shot some1! "We brake for nobody"
Quantum Gopher	Posted - 2004.05.22 14:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Isiana Devils Advocate - Anyone could use an alt to open up in high sec, space (somep lace with only him and ur main there - innitiate agression - main kills him, gains sec stat Raise and repeat I would imagine that criminal activity would carry a security status loss. The "rule" of "It's only illegal if you're caught" seems to apply. Status could/should be taken from the criminal and transfered to the law abiding citizen that brings them to justice. This would require the criminal to constantly be doing good deeds to offset his evil activities if they are killed etc. Loss/gain should only occur upon the criminal's podding/death. This allows for defense/revenge of victims which seems to be the intent of the flagging system. I would imagine stealing from a criminal would also be a crime. Or at least taking the original stolen goods would be. Goods should be flagged as contraband and could only be restored by the proper agents or by the original owner who gets it back. Otherwise...for the cost of an industrial, a large amount of valuable ore could be taken from a victim, the taker is flagged, killed and the ore taken from him...and could get away with it unless he too becomes a criminal. Maybe I should see about getting on the test server one of these days to try this out. Q. Gopher __________ I know...it's only ROCK and roll, but I like it!!
Hakera	Posted - 2004.05.22 17:54:00 - [8] afaik - this is not on chaos yet. I assume it wil be server controlled, but how do you flag your cans as been stolen etc unless you set an allowed users or something like that, anyone else is a theif who takes it or something. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Bubba1977	Posted - 2004.05.22 18:07:00 - [9] "Criminal Flagging - how will it work?" Two words -- It won't. __________________________________________________
Isiana	Posted - 2004.05.22 19:08:00 - [10] maybe like a seal on the can - if someone outside your corp/friends that u have allowed to touch it opens the can and moves the stuff inside he gets flagged - this doesnt prevent him from taking the stuff and warp to safe and log before concord arrives tho Carebear\|Me Alts
Electric Six	Posted - 2004.05.22 20:28:00 - [11] TBH I'm quite surprised there isn't an "ownership lock" (like on corpses etc in SWG) that stop other players opening cargo cans/loot. It'd stop jet-can mining and make criminal stuff more difficult.
Henka	Posted - 2004.05.22 21:48:00 - [12] one thing could be that when you take something from someones canister you are free for attack 5 min, and if someone attack that person, that person got the right to fire back.. That way you can defend yourself... 1on1 combat..
Tesk Malloc	Posted - 2004.05.23 20:08:00 - [13] I remember a post or a Dev discussion way back when, mentioning Criminal Flagging also having something to do with marking stolen goods. Something along the lines of if you killed a character in empire space who was not wanted by concord (i.e who had a sec rating of greater than -5.0) and took their cargo/modules these items would then be listed as stolen. If concord scanned you cargo hold/ship and identified this contrabrand they would automatically lower you sec rating or fine you and confiscate the goods or in extreme cases attack. Anyone else remember this or am I just imagining things again? Tesk Malloc - Hired Scum, Murderer and All Round Nasty Piece Of Work "You can't love life too much. Everybody dies."
Artean	Posted - 2004.05.23 20:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Tesk Malloc I remember a post or a Dev discussion way back when, mentioning Criminal Flagging also having something to do with marking stolen goods. Something along the lines of if you killed a character in empire space who was not wanted by concord (i.e who had a sec rating of greater than -5.0) and took their cargo/modules these items would then be listed as stolen. If concord scanned you cargo hold/ship and identified this contrabrand they would automatically lower you sec rating or fine you and confiscate the goods or in extreme cases attack. Anyone else remember this or am I just imagining things again? I do. And, there was supposed to be an agent service for "unflagging" stolen items. Though, that service would surely not be provided by Empire agents. ........ There is a fine line between gate camping and just standing by a gate, looking like an idiot...
Hakera	Posted - 2004.05.24 11:46:00 - [15] anyone got any info? need the info...im the boss Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Ryctor	Posted - 2004.05.24 11:59:00 - [16] How is this " flag system" ment for Ore Thieves?? Is it really that hard to understand that YOU THREW IT AWAY therefore Concord wont do **** if someone comes by and picks up your trash.
Christa Larne	Posted - 2004.05.24 12:00:00 - [17] Is this really just about ore thieves? And surely opening a random jet-can cannot be considered a criminal action. What happens when I am rat-hunting in a system and someone has previously killed a couple but not cleared up the loot. I have no way of knowing which are 'my' cans and which are 'theirs' so I would easily open the wrong one. Is it not the case that CCP have stated repeatedly that they are not going to do anything about people taking ore from jet-cans as they were not intended to be used for mining in the first place? My understanding of the criminal flagging was that it would be of more use in lowsec Empire space. Right now if a PK attacks someone in a belt anyone else in system who decides to come and assist can't fire on the PK (unless they have >-5.0 sec) without incurring a -sec hit. Criminal flagging would mean that if I perform a criminal act then anyone can shoot at me without taking a -sec hit. This is gonna change PvP, not ore stealing from jet-cans.
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.05.24 12:10:00 - [18] The way I udnerstad it'd work, and how I'd do it, hehe: - Open container and take item == Flagged as 'thief'. Container owner and his gang/corpmates are free to take any action (shooting, etc) towards the flagged player for x minutes - Carry illegal goods (including goods gotten from blowing things up) == Concord orders you to stop and jettison the cargo (presumably to destroy it). If you don't, you get roasted, if you do you lose your cargo - Kill player = flagged as murderer; offender is free to kill for x minutes (not including podkill) without concord repercussionsby the killed person's gang/corpmates. something like that anyway [Heterocephalus glaber]
Ryctor	Posted - 2004.05.24 12:12:00 - [19] Edited by: Ryctor on 24/05/2004 12:17:49 Damn I forgot to post my original thought. THis new system is gonna be exploited more than Korean kids working in a Martha Stewart sweat shop.
Hakera	Posted - 2004.05.24 12:23:00 - [20] Disco, i assume that shield/cap transferring to an aggressor is also counted as aggression with this and legal targets then, pot zombie-yulai I assume that would mean a sec hit for anyone asiting (i hope) The can theft thing - i assume this will be something as simple as if corp member or gang member then allowed, else legal target for say 5mins. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.05.24 12:25:00 - [21] Hmz, dont think 'pullig aggro' will be used in the flagging system. That'd ean we'd have to wait till Shiva before that becomes something to worry about and Oveur promised it'd be in Castor (in fact, in the next patch).3 also, corp members or gang members are already legal targets, no reason to code that extra restriction [Heterocephalus glaber]
Nyrram	Posted - 2004.05.24 16:15:00 - [22] Edited by: Nyrram on 24/05/2004 16:20:59 I seriously hope jettisoned cargo containers are unaffected by this proposed 'criminal' flag.. As a pirate, I have NO problem with having someone who fires first on someone else and gets a sec hit as being flagged as 'fair game' to everyone else for a few minutes. I also have NO problem with anyone using an 'assisting' module on someone currently flagged as 'criminal' being also flagged. (For the record, I have never and will never use such exploits) I'd even be up for having anyone with a -5 or below being permaflagged as 'criminal' so they are always fair game anytime anywhere. But I have a MAJOR problem with people's fixation on jettisoned canisters and the thought that they are their personal private property or something.. for Pete's sake people, you JETTISONED it.. it's no longer yours... get the hell over it.. (And for the record, I have never taken anything out of 'anyone elses' jettisoned cargo unless they are no longer in the area.. IE it was jettisoned AND abandoned..) It's like you idiots want CCP to give you a 25Km3 SECURE cargo container every time you hit the 'jettison' button or something.. WTF?! Some definitions for you people: -------------------- Main Entry: 1jetÀtiÀson Pronunciation: 'je-t&-s&n, -z&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English jetteson, from Anglo-French getteson, from Old French getaison action of throwing, from Latin jactation-, jactatio, from jactare -- more at JET : a voluntary sacrifice of cargo to lighten a ship's load in time of distress -------------------- Main Entry: 1volÀunÀtary Pronunciation: 'võ-l&n-"ter-E Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin voluntarius, from voluntas will, from velle to will, wish -- more at WILL 1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent 2 : unconstrained by interference : SELF-DETERMINING 3 : done by design or intention : INTENTIONAL <voluntary manslaughter> 4 : of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will <voluntary behavior> 5 : having power of free choice 6 : provided or supported by voluntary action <a voluntary organization> 7 : acting or done of one's own free will without valuable consideration or legal obligation -------------------- Main Entry: 1sacÀriÀfice Pronunciation: 'sa-kr&-"fIs, also -f&s or -"fIz Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin sacrificium, from sacr-, sacer + facere to make -- more at DO 1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar 2 : something offered in sacrifice 3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b : something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents> 4 : LOSS <goods sold at a sacrifice> 5 : SACRIFICE HIT -------------------- SO, let's use definitions of voluntary and sacrifice in the definition of jettison, shall we? (and yes, I know the grammer is off, but I wanted to use as exact definitions as possible) Jettison: a voluntary sacrifice of cargo to lighten a ship's load in time of distress Jettison: a destruction or surrender of cargo for the sake of something else, proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent, done to lighten a ship's load in time of distress. So, one more time, if you don't want it taken, DON'T F**KING JETTISON IT! If you want to canister mine, fine, do it.. but don't cry when someone comes and cleans your canister out.. invest in secure ones next time.. -- Nyrram
Nyrram	Posted - 2004.05.24 16:28:00 - [23] And if CCP IS dumb enough to put a canister 'thief' flag in that flags someone taking something from a canister that isn't "theirs" as criminal open to attack... hmm.. can we say Exploit City? 1) Lamer tards (Defined as group of morons who will use any exploit to cheat the game) drop canister with 100 megacyte near gate in secure space, from an alt in a noob corp, then sit around the gate waiting in other alts with cruise missles, whatever.. 2) Unsuspecting noob/trader/whatever comes across canister, takes 100 megacyte. 3) Boom.. pretty lights, explosions, cursing, and complaining. -- Nyrram
Hakera	Posted - 2004.05.27 11:59:00 - [24] /me coughs.....any more info yet ? Apparently criminal flagging is on chaos according to CCp MOTD on the chaos server so any notes on how it works? Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Patreze	Posted - 2004.05.27 12:43:00 - [25] maybe something like this -> named jettison = property, so person takeing something from named jettison is flaged as a thief
Agent Shield	Posted - 2004.05.27 13:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Patreze maybe something like this -> named jettison = property, so person takeing something from named jettison is flaged as a thief What is a named jettison? If you jettison cargo from your hold, you evidently do not think to highly of it and threw it out like trash. There is no such thing as an ore thief. What is happening is players are calling other players who come buy and clean up space of debris, thiefs for some reason. Give those players a break! They are helping out Eve by eliminating all those cans with ore just sitting out in space cluttering it up. They are helping us out by cleaning up the area. I don't know how criminal flagging is going to work, but I can't imagine it is for labeling someone a criminal for picking up someone else's trash they didn't want. Agent Shield
ScumUK	Posted - 2004.05.27 22:30:00 - [27] well when i'm mining i jetison the ore into a temp can and continue to fill it as it has a larger cap as any of the secure can's and a hell of a lot easier (thus meaning that the can is still wanted) if some nasty rat person wants to come by and kill me then steal my ore fair enough, that is the nature of the game, what is so wrong that the rat gets labeled a bad guy...doh! you a bad guy! deal with it! "Eat at McTorp, more tasty than a Big Mac"
Nyrram	Posted - 2004.05.28 03:07:00 - [28] Edited by: Nyrram on 28/05/2004 03:11:55 Originally by: ScumUK well when i'm mining i jetison the ore into a temp can and continue to fill it as it has a larger cap as any of the secure can's and a hell of a lot easier (thus meaning that the can is still wanted) if some nasty rat person wants to come by and kill me then steal my ore fair enough, that is the nature of the game, what is so wrong that the rat gets labeled a bad guy...doh! you a bad guy! deal with it! Killing you, yes, fine.. I'm a bad guy.. it's the canister that I have a problem with.. it's "a hell of alot easier" because it's not secure.. it "has a larger capacity" because it's not secure... it's not secure because it's PUBLIC DOMAIN. It's trash.. it's junk, it's something you've jettisoned.. it's not yours, it belongs to everyone.. if you want to keep adding things to it, by all means.. it's still not yours. And for the record, pirates don't usually care about ore.. if I was to find you mining in a .4 or below system, odds are I'd ransom or destroy your ship, and destroy your ore canister if you didn't pay up. Only Ore Removal Technicians care about ore.. if you want to fire at them, mine in .4 or below and take the security status hit.. But for the love of God, stop whining that you want "ownership" of a jettisoned cargo container.. if you want it, keep it in your cargo hold. -- Nyrram
sundel fatima	Posted - 2004.05.28 04:38:00 - [29] Edited by: sundel fatima on 28/05/2004 04:39:16 discorporation is right it goes for cans guess ones only in group can touch the can . ones out of group that touches it will get a tef limited flag open for attack by said group an about the thing hakera said about the player assisting by shield transfer they will tool concord ai for this to . the oh you jetted it you dident want it riff is so funny ya when i name a can free ores then we can talk lol a storms coming can you feel it . -now selling **** flavord skittles-
Agent Shield	Posted - 2004.05.28 08:52:00 - [30] I am actually wondering how this will work when it comes out, sounds interesting; not needed, but interesting. I get this feeling that some corp could have all it's members drop a can around jump gates and they are now somehow flagged as personal cargo instead of the jettisoned trash can they are. They the corp sits out in the area and wait for someone to actually touch the can and take them out to get their mods off their ship. Oh come on!, you know someone is going to try it. Agent Shield

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